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CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. 



REPORT 



OF THE 



SELECT COMMITTEE 



ON 



NATIVE EDUCATION. 



Printed by Order of the House of Assembly. 

AUGUST, 1908. 



CAPE TOWN : 

CAPE TIMES LIMITED, GOVERNMENT PRINTERS. 

1908. 



[A l-'08.]-NATIVE EDUCATION. 



<:■ 
00 



CAPE OF GOOD HOPE. 



REPORT 



OF THE 



SELECT COMMITTEE 



NATIVE EDUCATION. 



'I' 



Printed by Order of the House of Assembly. 

AUGUST, 190S. 



CAPE TOWN : 
CAPE TIMES LIMITED, GOVERNMENT PRINTERS. 

1908. 



\ I—mi -NATIVE EDUCATION. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON 






ORDERS OF THE HOUSE. 



25th June, 1908. 

ORDERED : — That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire 
into and report upon the existing system of Native and Coloured 
Education ; the Committee to have power to take evidence and 
call for papers, and to consist of the Colonial Secretary, Colonel 
Crewe, Messrs. Jagger, Levey, Murray, W. P. Schreiner, T. Searle, 
Colonel Stanford and Mr. Fremantle. 



30th June, 1908. 

Ordered : — That Messrs. de Kock and van Rooy be members 
of the Committee. 



i>. of o. 



... 

NATIVE EDUCATION. Ill 

INDEX. 



PAGE 

Orders of the House ... ... ... ... ii 

Report ... ... ... ... ... ... v 

Proceedings of Committee ... ... ... xxxi 

Evidence : 

Bennie, William Govan {Inspector of Schools) ... 380 

Bulwer, Revd. Canon Cyril Edwin Earl {Minister) ... 468 

Du Plessis, Revd. Johannes {Mission Secretary, Dutch 

Reformed Church) ... ... ... ... 584 

Henderson, Revd. James {Principal, Lovedale Institute) 331 

Hornabrook, Revd. Richard Fraser {Governor, Heald- 

toivn Institute) ... ... ... ... 523 

Jabavu, John Tengo {Native Editor) ... ..*. 435 

McLaren, James {Inspector of Schools) ... ..* 263 

Muir, Dr. Thomas {Superintendent-General of Educa- 
tion) ... ... ... 1,593 

Rennie, Charles Robert, M.L.A. ... ... ... 566 

Rubusana, Revd. Walter Benson {Native Minister) ... 209 

Sihlali, Revd. Simon Peter {Native Minister) . . . 109 

Sonnen, Revd. John Theodore {Minister) ... ... 548 

Stormont, Revd. David Duncan {Principal, Blyths wood 

Institute) ... ... ... ... ... 487 

Sutton, Revd. George {Principal, Dale College) ... 105 

Thompson, Newton Ogilvie {Resident Magistrate) ... 68 

Willoughby, Revd. William Charles {Principal, Vry- 

hurg Native Institute) ... ... ... 177 

Appendices : 

A. Native Mission Schools Grants, Extracts from 

Regulations ... ... ... ... i 

B. Native Training Schools, Statistics 1892 and 1908 ... v 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. C 



| y SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

Appendices — {continued) : 

C Aborigines' Schools, Transkeian Territories, Statistics, 
1892 and 1907 

D. Native Education Statistics, 1892 and 1907 

E. Glen Grey Act and Education, Statistics of 

F. Lovedale Native Institution, Statistics of ... 

G. Cape Town, Right Revel, the Coadjutor Bishop of, 

Statement by 
H. Dutch Reformed Church, General Mission Secretary, 

Statement by... 
I. Stuart, Re vd. W., Statement by ... 
J. Marx, Revd. E. G., Statement by 
K. "Willoughby, Revd. "W. C, Statement by ... 
L. Malgas, Revd. D., Statement by • 
M. Stewart, The late Revd. James, Statements by 
N. Junod, Revd. H. A., Statement by 
O. Macvicar, Dr. Neil, Statement by 
P. Bennie, W. G., Corrections in the Evidence of 



v 

vi 

vii 

viii 



xvi 
xx 

xxiv 
xxv 

xxvii 



XXIX 

xxxiii 
xxxvi 



NATIVE EDUCATION. V 

REPORT 

OF THE 

SELECT COMMITTEE, appointed by Orders of 
the House of Assembly, dated the 25th and 30th 
June, 1908, to inquire into and report upon 
the existing system of Native and Coloured 
Education ; the Committee to have power 
to take evidence and call for Papers, and to 
consist of the COLONIAL SECRETARY, Colonel 
Crewe, Messrs. Jagger, Levey, Murray, 
AY P. Schreiner, T. Searle, Colonel Stan- 
ford, Messrs. Fremantle, de Kock and van 
Eooy. 

1. Your Committee, having devoted much 
thought and labour to the investigation entrusted 
to them, desire to express their deep sense of 
the far-reaching importance, as well as of the 
complexity of the subject, and their earnest hope 
that their recommendations, made with a full 
sense of responsibility, may be followed by deter- 
mined action. 

2. Your Committee find that the present situa- 
tion cannot be understood without recollecting 
that the education of the natives was begun by 
missionaries working in isolation from each other 
and from the Government, and that the system 
which thus sprang up, while much modified by 
State superintendence, consequent on the giving of 
grants from the public treasury, is still, in the main, 
a missionary undertaking, so that there is neither 
a purely missionary system nor a purely State 
system of native education. 

3. It is undeniable that there have gone and 
are still going to the making up of the present 
system much devotion on the part of missionaries, 
supported by careful and attentive administration 
on the part of the Education Department, much zeal 
on the part of school inspectors, much expendi- 



▼1 SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

ture on the part of the Government, and much 
effort on the part of the natives themselves. 
There is among the natives a strong desire for 
education, which is sometimes due to a mistaken 
view of the objects and effect of education, hut is 
in itself natural and reasonable. This desire it 
should be the aim of the Government carefully to 
guide in right directions. 

4. The witnesses are generally agreed that educa- 
tion has the effect of making the native more in- 
telligent, more civilized, and more loyal, and of 
increasing his wants. It is also widely, though 
less generally, admitted that education makes the 
native more moral and more industrious. Your 
Committee can, however, find no evidence in sup- 
port of the theory that education has a tendency 
to induce crime. Your Committee submit that 
the primary objects of native education must be 
the development of intelligence, the training of 
character, and in particular the promotion of 
industry, and that if these objects are duly kept 
in view throughout, and nothing is done to force 
development unnaturally, native education cannot 
fail to be to the advantage of the whole country. 

5. Your Committee find that the belief in the 
inability of the native to develop at a normal 
rate beyond a certain stage is not supported by 
facts, and that any definite assertion as to the 
capacity or limits of the native mind must at pre- 
sent be regarded as a deduction from insufficient 
evidence. 

6. There is considerable financial difficulty in 
regard to native schools. In particular the salaries 
of teachers are generally insufficient to attract or 
retain the best natives, who find more remunera- 
tive work elsewhere. Nowhere can the native 
parent, as a rule, be relied upon to pay school fees 
regularly in elementary schools, and the locil 
share of the teacher's salary is only secure when 
paid by the Transkeiaii General Council, which 
appears to collect rates for the purpose with- 
out unusual difficultv. Your Committee recom- 



NATIVE EDUCATION. Ml 

mend that the efforts already being made to 
extend the Council system be continued, and, if 
possible, increased ; that the Government seriously 
consider the desirability of creating an authority 
capable of levying a native education rate in 
suitable districts on the West of the Kei ; and 
that the contribution of the Council to the 
teachers' salaries be gradually, and when possible, 
raised until the £ for £ principle is established in 
connection with native schools. 

7. The regulations for aborigines schools appear 
to assume the presence of the missionary superin- 
tendent without mentioning him or defining his 
position. In some quarters there is a demand for 
school committees composed of or including repre- 
sentative natives, and the Transkeian General 
Council has given countenance to this demand. 
Your Committee recommend that the position of 
the missionary superintendents be defined, and that 
officers concerned in native education continue to 
cultivate close and friendly relations with them. 
Your Committee consider that the time has not yet 
arrived for a general system of school committees, 
but would approve of giving grants to aborigines' 
schools established by responsible bodies, such as 
the General Council or district councils, though 
regarding it as eminently desirable that there 
should be a representative of a missionary 
society on every managing committee of such 
schools. Your Committee also approve of 
grants to public schools for natives, if the 
ordinary conditions on which grants are made 
to public schools are fulfilled. The question of 
providing a public authority for taking over and 
managing aborigines' schools and mission schools 
for natives is likely to cause difficulty in the future, 
and it should be remembered that the present 
system of control in such schools cannot last in- 
definitely. Where possible, therefore, leading 
natives should be consulted by teachers, mission- 
aries, superintendents and inspectors, and, when 
practicable, simple advisory bodies should be 
recognized. 



Vlll SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

8. The curriculum in native schools is the same 
as that in European schools, and was fixed after 
the most careful consideration fourteen years ago. 
The change then made was part of a general 
movement for securing stricter organization in the 
schools, and some confusion appears to exist on 
this point, objections to the strictness of the 
organization on the ground that it limits unduly 
the freedom of the teacher being mistaken for 
objections to the curriculum. The evidence before 
your Committee did not disclose any definite 
objection to the curriculum in itself. There is, 
however, some diversity of opinion as to the 
desirability of a special curriculum for natives. 
There was formerly a special University course for 
natives at Lovedale, omitting Latin, and the 
omission of Latin in the case of native University 
students is now urged by some authorities. A 
conference of heads of native institutions has 
recently recommended the establishment of a 
special curriculum for native schools, and more 
than one such curriculum has been drafted and 
put forward. On the other hand some educational 
authorities and some natives fear separation be- 
tween natives and Europeans in this particular. 
The question would of course assume a different 
character if it were decided to introduce more 
elasticity than exists at present into the curriculum 
in European schools. It appears to your Com- 
mittee desirable that the curriculum in native 
schools should include the teaching of the simple 
facts and laws of nature, that every effort should 
be made to cultivate intelligence and not merely 
memory, that thoroughness should be particularly 
insisted on, and that the subjects taught should be 
brought as much as possible into relation with the 
circumstances of native life. Your Committee 
recommend that the whole subject of the cur- 
riculum in native schools be referred to the 
Conference mentioned in paragraph 13 of this 
report, and that, in future, when necessary repre- 
sentative conferences be consulted by the Depart- 



NATIVE EDUCATION. IX 

ment with regard to possible modifications of the 
curriculum. 

9. The medium of instruction in aborigines' 
schools is not fixed by law or regulation. There is 
some evidence that inspectors sometimes insist on 
the use of English in the lowest standards, but the 
witnesses are not in agreement on this point. A 
knowledge of the vernacular is demanded of native 
teachers in the third year of the pupil teachers' 
course, which is the highest course for which the 
State gives grants. The use of English in conversa- 
tion is commonly insisted on in the native training 
institutions. It is universally agreed that a know- 
ledge of English is necessary for the educated 
native. But there is some difference of opinion 
as to whether in practice the exclusive use 
of English at an early age is calculated 
either to lead to a thorough understanding of the 
language and the proper meaning of the terms, 
or to develop general intelligence. A demand, 
for increased attention to the vernacular has, 
however, been made by a conference of the 
school inspectors in the" Transkei, by the Inter- 
State Native Affairs Commission, by a Missionary 
Conference representative of all the Protestant 
denominations engaged in mission work in South 
Africa, by the Teachers' Association, by a con- 
ference of those interested in the Native College 
scheme and by a conference of the heads of Native 
Training Institutions. Your Committee recom- 
mend that the vernacular should be the medium 
up to the entrance to Standard Three, that subse- 
sequently English should be the medium as far as 
practicable, but that religious instruction should, 
where desired, be through the medium of the ver- 
nacular, that both English and the vernacular 
should be taught as languages throughout the 
school course, that in the training of natives, 
particularly with a view to their employment in 
Dutch- speaking districts, provision should be 
made for instruction in the Dutch language, 
that the principles to be followed should be clearly 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON 



laid down and brought to the notice of all parties 
concerned, and that as far as possible inspectors 
should follow the practice recommended for the 
schools. 

10. The necessity of moral and religious teach- 
ing in native schools (an essential consequence of 
the character and circumstances of the people) is 
universally admitted, but it appears that this most 
important subject is too frequently neglected in 
native schools because it forms no part of the work 
tested by the inspector, on whose judgment the 
scholastic' reputation of the pupil, the teacher and 
the school immediately depends. Your Committee 
recommend that the subject be taught for half-an- 
hour a day to all native pupils in training institu- 
tions and schools ; that the conference referred to 
in paragraph 13 of this report be invited to consider 
the possibility of drawing up a scheme for such 
teaching ; that in the event of a scheme being 
agreed to, inspectors should in general undertake 
the inspection in schools where such scheme is in 
operation and where they are so desired to 
inspect ; that in other native schools, or where for 
any good reason inspection by the inspector is 
inappropriate, the missionary superintendent be 
required to provide for inspection in this subject, 
and that due allowance be made for the results of 
this inspection in the general judgment on the work 
of the teacher and the pupil. 

11. Simple instruction of native pupils in the 
laws of health would be to the advantage, not only 
of 'the native, but also of the rest of the community. 
Your Committee recommend that provision be 
made in the teachers' course for training teachers 
to give such instruction, and that the subject be 
introduced into native schools as quickly as 
possible. 

12. The extreme importance of manual training 
for all native pupils has been repeatedly insisted 
upon. Unfortunately, the costliness of industrial 
training and the great difficulty of devising a 
scheme universallv suitable have hitherto frustrated 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XI 

all attempts to deal satisfactorily with this subject. 
In many native training institutions, however, the 
boys are required to work on the lands, and in all 
these institutions a training in woodwork is insisted 
upon by the Department. Needlework is similarly 
insisted upon in the case of girls in the training 
institutions and in all but small station schools, 
but woodwork is too expensive to introduce in 
most of the station schools. The manual training 
of native boys is thus altogether lacking in many 
cases, and the undesirability of this cannot be too 
strongly emphasised. Various schemes have been 
suggested by inspectors, but have not won general 
approval. It appears that in many cases the 
schools are too far removed from agricultural land 
to admit of training in agriculture, but the 
evidence makes it clear that this is by no means 
a general rule. Your Committee recommend 
that direct training in agriculture and arbori- 
culture be given where possible at native train- 
ing institutions ; that higher grants be given 
to teachers qualified to give instruction in these 
subjects : that where new schools are estab- 
lished the provision of land suitable for this 
purpose be as far as possible insisted L>n ; that local 
authorities be urged to provide suitable land where 
possible in connection with existing schools ; that 
where instruction in agriculture cannot be given 
alternative instruction in the use of simple tools, 
in building, in brickmaking. in native industries, or 
in some other course satisfactory to the inspector 
be substituted ; that suitable courses of industrial 
training, such as spinning, be insisted on in girls' 
schools where needlework is not taught, and that 
provision be made in the time tables for such work, 
which should be subject to inspection and duly 
allowed for by the inspectors. Every effort should 
be made to make industrial education as far as 
possible self-supporting. Your Committee further 
recommend that all manual work in connection 
with native institutions and schools be as far as 
possible done by the pupils. 



Xll SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

13. Your Committee recommend that the various 
missionary bodies, the Transkeian General Council 
and the native training institutions be invited to 
send representatives to a conference at which the 
Department should be represented, and natives 
specially interested in education might also be 
asked to attend, to discuss and report upon the 
curriculum for native schools, the provision of 
religious and moral instruction, the teaching of 
hygiene and manual training. 

14. Xosa and Sesuto readers and text books in 
subjects best taught through the medium of the 
vernacular appear in many cases to be lacking. 
The Government might well consider the desira- 
bility of encouraging the production of such works 
by offering under suitable financial conditions to 
guarantee the first editions of the best approved 
works submitted in such subjects. 

15. The system of inspection is the same in 
native as in European schools. Owing to their 
traditions and circumstances the native teachers 
tend to rely more than others on the inspectors. 
Your Committee recommend that inspectors should 
in all inspections, including informal visits, con- 
tinue to co-operate with the teachers as far as 
possible and regard the work of giving advice to 
teachers as not the least important part of their 
work. 

16. Native training institutions are essential 
to any scheme of native elementary education, 
since it is clear that the teachers in native schools 
must themselves be natives, except in the higher 
standards and in other very exceptional cases. 
After hearing the views of the heads of 
native training institutions and the Department 
in connection with the system of boarding grants, 
your Committee agree that the s} r stem is unsatis- 
factory and recommend the adoption of a new 
scheme, providing that the Government grants 
be regarded as bursaries for individuals ; that 
some grant be made to all satisfactory pupils 
in all the stages of the pupil teachers' course, 
and that the grants be graded so as to be 



NATIVE EDUCATION. Xlll 

larger in the later than in the earlier stages. 
Your Committee feel bound to add that this 
scheme must be worked out so as not to add to 
the expenditure of the Government. In Bechuana- 
land some difficulty exists owing to the fact that 
few, if any, pupils reach the standard of entrance 
on the normal course. Your Committee recom- 
mend that for the next five years a system be 
established in Bechuanaland whereby pupils who 
have passed the fourth standard may be free to re- 
ceive some training as teachers, and if they continue 
their work satisfactorily, may be given provisional 
certificates as monitor-teachers for work north 
of the Orange Biver. 

17. There is at present no great demand for the 
higher education of natives, and no provision is 
made for such education by the State, which 
assists normal classes but gives no grants for 
a high school course for natives. Some diffi- 
culty is occasionally experienced by native 
pupils who pass Standard YI. at the age of 
twelve and are not admitted to the normal course 
till the age of fourteen. Your Committee con- 
sider that the question of the provision of such 
higher education as may be required is part of 
the question of the attitude of the State towards 
the proposed Inter- State College. 

18. The establishment of a Native College has 
been recommended, partly in order to provide for 
the higher education of natives and partly to pre- 
vent natives from going out of the country in 
search of it. The evidence shows that upwards of a 
hundred South African natives have in recent years 
gone to colleges in the United States and elsewhere ; 
that there may be some opening for natives with a 
college education as professional men among their 
own people and as headmen, and that there 
is a demand for higher education, but that 
it is not large. It also appears that many 
natives enter the normal course solely because 
there is no alternative course beyond the 
elementary standards. Your Committee regard 



XIV SELECT COMMITTEE ON 



this as undesirable, since the normal course is 
designed only for training teachers. In view of 
all the circumstances, they consider that the 
demand for higher education should not be artifi- 
cially stimulated, but that when shown to be 
genuine it should not be refused, and recommend 
that after Standard V. there should, where neces- 
sary, be alternative courses (leading up to secondary, 
normal and industrial work) ; that the scale of fees 
be similar to those of the fees charged in European 
colleges ; that grants for secondary and higher 
work be made to the native college on terms 
similar to those on which grants were made to 
other colleges in the earlier days of higher 
education in South Africa ; that the Government 
be adequately represented on the governing body 
of the native college ; that the work up to and 
including the Matriculation course be subject to 
the usual Government inspection ; that manual 
training be an integral part of the college course, 
and that the university standard of work be 
strictly maintained. 

19. Your Committee further make the following 
recommendations : — 

(a) That the distinction between mission and 
aborigines' schools be abolished ; 

(b) That native and coloured children be 
differentiated as soon as practicable in 
the returns ; 

(c) That the various missionary bodies be 
urged to combine as far as possible in 
organizing the work of native education 
so as to avoid unnecessary duplication, 
and to establish, if possible, a Central 
Advisory Committee. 

20. Your Committee believe that without being 
revolutionary the changes recommended in this 
report would together amount to a great improve- 
ment in- our present system of native education 
from which far-reaching consequences might be ex- 
pected. The provision of special grants for teachers 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XV 

qualified to give instruction in agriculture and 
arboriculture would require the passing of a new 
school regulation, but for the most part the 
changes recommended could be carried out by 
administrative action. Your Committee would 
urge that action in regard to the proposed reforms 
in native schools and training institutions be forth- 
with initiated, and in conclusion would express the 
earnest conviction that Parliament and the Govern- 
ment would be well advised to watch the pro- 
gress of events in respect of native education, 
with constant vigilance and a determination to 
keep the practical working of the system in line 
with the objects aimed at, never losing sight of the 
great issues which hang upon the wisdom of the 
policy adopted in this regard. 

H. E. S. FBEMANTLE, 

Chairman. 

Committee Rooms, 

House of Assembly, 
25th August, 1908. 



XVI SELECT COMMITTEE ON 



MINORITY REPORT. 



The proposition of granting higher education to 
natives, and the recognition of an Inter-State 
College for natives by Government should, in my 
opinion, remain in abeyance, not only because the 
demand for such education does not spring from 
the natives as a whole, but especially in view of 
the present financial position of this Colony and 
the glaring inequality of the burden of taxation 
between white and black. These reasons, and the 
fact that a consistent and lasting native policy is 
vital to the union of South Africa, compel me to 
suggest the postponement of this question until 
the new Constitution is settled by the Delegates at 
the National Convention. 

J. W. DE KOCK. 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XV11 

RAPPORT 

VAN HET 

<GEKOZEN COMITE, aangesteld door Eesoluties 
van de "Wetgevende Yergadering van 25 en 30 
Juni 1908. om onderzoek te doen naar. en te 
rapporteeren omtrent, liet bestaande stelsel 
van Naturellen en Gekleurden Onderwijs ; het 
Comite de macht te liebben getuigenis in te 
winnen en om papieren te vragen en te bestaan 
nit de Koloniale Secbetabis, Kolonel 
Cbewe, de heeren Jaggeb, Levey, Mubbay, 
W. P. Scheeinee, T. Seable, Kolonel Stan- 
fobd. de heeren Fbemantle, de Kock en van 
Eooy. 

Uw Comite lieeft over het onderzoek aan hem 
toevertrouwd veel nagedacht en er veel tijd aan 
besteed en wenscht uitdrukking te geven aan zijn 
diep besef van de ver-reikende belangrijkheid, 
zoowel als van de ingewikkeldheid van het onder- 
werp | alsook aan zijn vnrige hoop dat de aan- 
bevelingen, gedaan met een vol besef van 
verantwoordelijkheid, opgevolgd mogen worden 
door vastberaden handeling. 

2. Uw Comite vindt dat men de tegenwoordige 
positie niet verstaan kan zonder te onihouden dat 
de opvoeding van de Naturellen begonnen werd 
door zendelingen, die afgezonderd van elkander 
en van het Gouvernement werkten, en dat het 
stelsel dat alzoo ontstond, hoewel veel gewijzigd 
door het toezicht dat de Staat uitoef ende krachtens 
het geven van toelagen uit de publieke schatkist, 
steeds in hoofdzaak een zending-werk is, zoodat 
er noch een zuiver zending — noch een zuiver staats- 
•stelsel bestaat. 

3. Het kan niet ontkend worden dat de groote 
toewijding van de Zendelingen, geholpen door de 
voorzichtige en oplettende administratie van het 
Departement van Onderwijs, de groote ijver van 
de School Inspeeteurs, groote nitgaven door het 
Gouvernement, en veel inspanning aan de kant 



XVHI SELECT COMMITTEE OX 

I* 11 / 1 ^ ^turellen zelven bijgedragen hebben 
en steeds bijdragen, tot het opbouwen van het 
tegenwoordige stelsel. Br bestaat onder de Natu 
S ftp Z T Yke begeerte VOOr opvoeding, die Tom- 

he doel Tn Pff.lV^ 11 een ve J keerd d ^beeld van 
het doel en effekt van opvoeding, maar die op zich- 

doel ^ U S J p Gn rGdelijk is ' Het beh ™ rt het 
cloel/van bet Gouvernement te zijn om deze be- 
geerte in de rechte richting te leiden. 

flat ^ etw ? rd ajgemeenerkend'door de getuigen 
dat opvoeding het effekt heeft van de Nature* 

enSAf^ he ^f™ ™ m <*r loyaal te maken 
en dat het zijne behoeften --- eerdert Hptwm / 
ook door velen M cU, r ; oillieer 1 clert - ±let n wer( f 
-w - x^^j-^ -^r» u0Cn me t zoo algemeen, erkend 

Tfac opvoeding de Naturel meer zedelijk en arbeid- 
zamer maakt. Uw Comity kan echter geen getui- 
genis vinden in bewijs van de theorie dat opvoe- 
ding de strekking heeft om tot misdaad aanleiding 
te geven. Uw Comite beweert dat de voornaamste 
oogmerken van Naturellen opvoeding de ontwik- 
keling van het ver stand, de vorming van het 
karakter en vooral de bevordering van arbeidzaam- 
heid behooren te zijn en dat indien deze oogmer- 
ken geregeld in 't oog gehouden worden en niets 
gedaan wordt om ontwikkeling op onnatuurlijke 
wijze te forceeren, de opvoeding van de Naturellen 
tot voordeel van het land strekken zal. * 

5. Uw Comite vindt dat het geloof dat de Nature! 
niet in staat is om op de gewone wijze verder dan 
een zeker punt te ontwikkelen niet gestaafd wordt 
door feiten, en dat eenige bepaalde bewering om- 
trent de bevoegdheid of grenzen van het Naturel - 
len verstand voor het tegenwoordige beschouwd 
moet worden als een afleiding uit onvoldoende 
getuigenis. 

6. Daar is een tamelijk groote moeilijkheid in 
verband met de flnancieele zaken van Naturellen 
scholen. Vooral zijn de salarissen van de onder- 
wijzers over 't algemeen te gering om de beste 
Naturellen aan te lokken en te houden, want zvj 
vinden meer beloonend werk elders. Nergens kan 
men er op rekenen dat de Naturellen ouder, in de 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XIX 

regel, de school-gelden in elementaire scholen zal 
betalen, en het plaatselijk aandeel van de onder- 
wijzers salaris is slechts zeker wanneer het betaald 
wordt door de Transkeische Algemeene Eaad, die 
voor dat doel belastingen schijnt te innen zonder 
bijzonder moeite. L T w Comite beveelt aan dat de 
pogingen die aangewend worden om het stelsel van 
de Raaduit te breiden voortgezet en, indien moge- 
lijk, vermeerderd worden ; dat het Gouvernement 
in ernstige overweging neme de wenschelijkheid 
van een autoriteit te stichten die het recht zal 
hebben een Naturellen opvoedings belasting op te 
leggen in geschikte distrikten ten weste van de 
Kei ; en dat de bijdrage van de Eaad tot de sala- 
rissen van de onderwijzers trapsgewijze, en 
wanneer mogelijk, verhoogd worde totdat het £ 
voor £ beginsel aldus ingevoerd is in verband met 
Naturellen scholen. 

7. De Eegulaties voor Naturellen Scholen 
schijnen de tegenwoordigheid van de Zendeling 
als superintendent te veronderstellen zonder hem 
te noemen of zijne positie te verklaren. In som- 
mige deelen wordt er gevraagd om School Comites 
bestaande nit, of insluitende, vertegenwoordigende 
Naturellen, en de Transkeische Algemeene Eaad 
heeft dit verlangen aangemoedigd. Uw Comite be- 
veelt aan dat de positie van de Zendelingen als 
superintendenten bepaald worde, en dat beambten 
die in de opvoeding der Naturellen betrokken zijn 
bij voortduring zich intiem en vriendschappelijk 
gedragen. Uw Comite beschouwt dat de tijd nog 
niet aangebroken is voor een algemeen stelsel 
van School Comites maar zou het geven van toe- 
lagen aan Naturellen Scholen goedkeuren, waar 
die scholen gesticht zijn door verantwoordelijke 
lichamen zooals de Algemeene Eaad of de 
distrikts raden, hoewel uw Comite het ook 
hoogst wenschelijk beschouwt dat op elk 
bestierend comite van zoodanig school er een 
vertegenwoordiger van een Zending Genootschap 
zij. Uw Comite keurt ook toelagen aan publieke 
scholen voor Naturellen goed, indien de gewone 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. D 



XX SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

voorwaarden, waarop toelagen aan publieke 
scholen gegeven worden, nagekomen worden. 
De kwestie van liet daarstellen van een publieke 
autoriteit voor het overnemen en bestier van 
Naturellen scholen en zending scholen voor 
Naturellen zal mogelijk moeilijkheid in de toe- 
komst veroorzaken, en men moet ook niet vergeten 
dat het tegenwoordige stelsel van bestier van zoo- 
danige scholen niet altijd kan duren. Dus, waar 
mogelijk behooren de voornaamste Naturellen 
geraadpleegd te worden door de onderwijzers, 
zendelingen, superintendenten en inspecteurs, en 
wanneer praktisch, behooren eenvoudige raad- 
gevende lichamen erkend te worden. 

8. De leercursus in Naturellen scholen is de- 
zelfde als in scholen voor JBlanken en werd 
veertien jaar geleden na de zorgvuldigste over- 
weging vastgesteld. De verandering toen gemaakt 
maakte een deel uit van een algemeene beweging 
om strenger organizatie in de scholen te verkrijgen, 
en omtrent dit punt.bestaat er eenige verwarring, 
daarobjecties tegen de strengheid van de organiza- 
tie, omdat dezelve de vrijheid van de onderwijzer 
beperkt, genomen worden als objecties tegen de 
leercursus zelve. Het getuigenis voor uwe Comite 
gegeven toonde geen bepaalde objectie tegen de 
leercursus zelve. Daar is echter verschil van 
opinie omtrent de wenschelijkheid van een special e 
leercursus voor Naturellen. Yoorheen bestond er 
een speciale Universiteits leercursus voor Natu- 
rellen te Lovedale, met weglating van Latijn, en 
de weglating van Latijn in het geval van JSTaturellen 
Universiteits studenten wordt nu aanbevoien door 
zekere autoriteiten. Een conferentie van hoof den 
van Naturellen inrichtingen heeft onlangs aan- 
bevoien het daarstellen van een speciale leercursus 
voor Naturellen scholen, en meer dan een zoodanige 
leercursus is opgesteld en aanbevoien geworden. 
Aan de andero kantzijn zekere autoriteiten op het 
gebied van opvoeding bevreesd voor scheiding 
tusschen Blanken en Naturellen in dit geval. De 
kwestie zou natuurlijk een ander kleur aannemen 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XXI 

inciieii het besloten werd om meer rekbaarheid in 
te voeren dan er thans bestaat in de leercursus 
in scholen voor Blanken. Uw Comite beschouwt 
het wenschelijk dat de leercursus in Naturellen 
Scholen insluiten zal onderricht in de eenvoudige 
feiten en wetten van de Natuur, en dat alles ge- 
daan zal worden om het ver stand te ontwikkelen 
en niet slechts het geheugen, dat op degelijkheid 
bijzonder aangedrongen zal worden. en clat de 
onderwerpen onderwezen zooveel mogelijk in ver- 
band met de Naturellen levens-wijze zal gebracht 
worden. Uw Comite beveelt aan dat de gansche 
kwestie van de leercursus in Naturellen Scholen 
verwezen zal worden naar de Conferentie vermeld 
in paragraaf 13 van dit Rapport, en dat voor de 
toekomst, vertegenwoordigende Conferences door 
het Departement behooren geraadpleegd te worden 
over mogelijke wijzigingen van de leercursus. 

9. Het medium van onderricht in Naturellen 
scholen is niet bepaald door wet of regulatie. Daar 
is getuigenis dat inspecteurs somtijds op het ge- 
bruik van Engelsch in de laagste standaards aan- 
dringen, maar de getuigen zijn niet alien eens 
omtrent dit punt. Een kennis van hunne moeder- 
taal wordt van Naturellen geeischt in het derde 
jaar van de leerling-onderwijzers cursus, — de 
hoogste cursus waarvoor de Staat toelagen schenkt. 
Het gebruik van Engelsch in gesprek wordt ge- 
woonlijk op aangedrongen in de Naturellen Oplei- 
dings inrichtingen . Het wordt algemeen erkend 
dat een kennis van Engelsch noodig is voor de 
opgevoede Naturel. Maar er bestaat verschil van 
opinie of in de praktijk het uitsluitend gebruik 
van Engelsch op een vroege leeftijd tot een degelijk 
begrip van de taal en de uitdrukkingen daarin leiclt, 
en of het de algemeene vatbaarheid van de leer- 
ling bevordert. De School Inspecteurs in de Trans- 
kei, de Inter-Staat Naturellen Zaken Commissie, 
een Conferentie van Zendelingen vertegenwoor- 
digende alle Protestantsche kerkgenootschappen die 
zendingwerk in Zuid Afrika doen, de Onderwijzers 
Yereenigin^. een Conferentie van degrenen die be- 



XXll SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

lang stellen in het Naturellen College schema eir 
een Conf erentie Tan de hoof clen van Naturellen Op- 
leidings Inrichtingen hebben echter verzocht dat 
meer aandacht besteed zal worden aan de moeder- 
taal. Uw Comte beveelt aan dat de moedertaal 
het meduim van onderricht tot bij Standaard Drie 
zal zijn, en dat van daar Engelsch, zoover moge- 
lijk het medium zal zijn, maar dat godsdienstig 
onderricht, waar zulks begeerd wordt, door middel 
van de moedertaal zal geschieden ; dat zoowel 
Engelsch als de moedertaal als talen geleerd zullen 
worden de gansche cursus door ; dat in het oplei- 
den van Naturellen, vooral met het oog op hun 
gebruik in Hollandsch-sprekend distrikten, voor- 
ziening gemaakt worde voor onderricht in de 
Holland sche taal ; dat de begin sels te worden 
gevolgd duidelijk neergelegd en onder de aandacht 
van alle betrokken parti j en gebracht moeten 
worden, en dat inspecteurs zooveel mogelijk de 
practijk voor scholen aanbevolen behooren te 
volgen. 

10. De noodzakelijkheid van zedelijke en gods- 
dienstige onderricht in scholen (een natuurlijk 
gevolg van het karakter en toestanden van het 
volk) wordt algemeen erkend, maar het schijnt 
dat dit hoogst belangrijk onderwerp dikwijls ver- 
waarloosd wordt in Naturellen scholen, omdat 
het geen deel uitmaakt van het werk dat door de 
Inspecteur onderzocht wordt, van wiens oordeel 
de goede naam van de leerling, de onderwijzer 
en de school afhangt. Uw Comity beveelt 
aan dat onderricht in het onderwerp een 
halve uur elke dag gegeven zal worden aan 
alle Naturellen leerlingen in Opleidings in- 
richtingen en scholen ; dat de Conf erentie op 
gewezen in paragraaf 13 van dit Eapport verzocht 
worde om de mogelijkheid te overwegen van het 
optrekken van een schema voor zoodanig onder- 
richt ; dat, in het geval dat zij overeenstemmen 
omtrent een of ander schema, inspecteurs in het 
algemeen de inspectie zullen ondernemen van 
scholen waar zoodanige schema in werking is en 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XX111 

^waar liet van hen begeerd wordt dat zij zullen 
inspecteeren, dat in andere Naturellen scholen, of 
waar voor eenig goede reden inspectie door een 
inspecteur niet geriefelijk of geschikt is, de 
Zendeling superintendent verzocht worde om 
voorziening te maken voor inspectie in dit onder- 
werp, en dat de resultaten van deze inspectie 
behoorlijk in acht genomen zullen worden in liet 
algemeen oordeel van liet werk van de onder- 
wijzer en van de leerling. 

11. Eenvoudig onderricht aan Naturellen leer- 
lingen in de Wetten der gezondheid zal goed zijn, 
niet enkel voor de leerling, niaar ook voor zijn 
mede-Naturellen. Uw Comite beveelt aan dat 
voorzienig gemaakt worde in de onderwijzers 
cursus voor het opleiden van onderwijzers om 
zoodanig onderricht te geven en dat het onder- 
w r erp in Naturellen scholen zoo spoedig mogelijk 
ingevoerd worde. 

12. Op de uiterste belangrijkheid van onder- 
richt in handwerk is reeds keer op keer aange- 
dron^en. Ongelukkig hebben de kostbaarheid 
van industrieele opleiding en de groote moeilijk- 
heid om een schema op te trekken. dat 

algemeen geschikt zal zijn, tot hiertoe alle 
pogingen om dit onderwerp op bevredigende 
wijze te behandelen verijdeld. In vele Natu- 
rellen Opleidings Inrichtingen echter moeten 
de jongens op de landen werken en in 
alle deze inrichtingen wordt op onderricht in 
houtwerk door het departement aangedrongen. 
Naaldwerk is eveneens gedwongen in het geval 
van meisjes in opleidings inrichtingen en in alle be- 
halve de kleine zending-scholen ; maar houtwerk 
is te duur om in de meeste der zending-scholen in 
te voeren. De opleiding van Naturellen jongens 
in handwerk is dus in vele gevallen uiterst ge- 
brekkig en over de onwenschelijkheid hiervan kan 
men zich moeilijk te sterk uitspreken. Verschil- 
lende schemas zijn door inspekteurs aan de hand 
gegeven geworden maar geen daarvan vindt alge- 
meen bijval. Het schijnt dat in vele gevallen de 



XXIV. SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

scholen te ver verwijderd zijn van landbouw grond 
om onderricht in landbouw mogelijk te maken, 
maar ait het getuigenis blijkt dat dit geenszins de 
algemeene regel is. Uw Comite beveelt aan dat 
direkte onderricht in landbouw en het aan- 
kweeken van boomen gegeven worde waar moge- 
lijk bij Naturellen Opleidings Inrichtingen ; dat 
hooger toelagen gegeven worden aan onderwijzers 
die bekwaam zijn om in die onderwerpen onder- 
richt te geven ; dat waar nieuwe scholen ge- 
sticht worden men zooveel mogelijk er op 
aandringen zal dat er grond beschikbaar voor dit 
doel zal zijn ; dat plaatselijke autoriteiten 
g'evraagd zullen worden om waar mogelijk 
geschikte grond te verschaffen in verband 
met bestaande scholen ; dat waar onderricht in 
landbouw niet gegeven kan worden, als een 
alternatief er onderricht zal zijn in het gebruik van 
eenvoudig gereedschap, in bouwen, maken van 
baksteenen, in Naturellen industrieen of in een of 
ander vak ter bevrediging van de inspecteur ; dat 
een geschikte cursus van industrieele opleiding, 
zooals het spinnen, op aangedrongen wordt in 
meisjes scholen waar naaldwerk nietgeleerd wordt, 
en dat er op de roosters voorziening zij voor zoo- 
danige vakken, die aan inspectie onderworpen 
behooren te zijn en behoorlijk door deinspecteurs in 
acht genomen moeten worden. Alles behoort ook 
gedaan te worden om industrieele opleiding zoover 
als mogelijk zelf-betalend te maken. Uwe Comite 
beveelt verder aan dat al het handwerk in verband 
met Naturellen inrichtingen zoover mogelijk door 
de leerlingen moeten gedaan worden. 

13. Uw Comite beveelt aan dat cle verschillende 
Zending-genootschappen, de Transkeische Alge- 
meene Eaad, en de Naturellen Opleidings Inrich- 
tingen, gevraagd worden om vertegenwoordigers 
te zenden naar een Conferentie waar het Departe- 
ment vertegenwoordigd moet zijn — en men kan 
ook Naturellen die speciaal belang stellen in de 
opvoeding vragen om tegenwoordig te zijn — om 
de leercursus voor Naturellen scholen, het gods- 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XXV 

dienstig en zedelijk onderricht aldaar en het 
onderricht in gezondheidsleer en handwerk te 
bespreken, en daaromtrent te rapporteeren. 

14. Er schijnt in vele gevallen gebrek te zijnaan 
Xosa en Sesuto leesboeken en handboeken in on- 
derwerpen die het best geleerd knnnen worden 
door middel van de moedertaal. Het Gouverne- 

ment zou goed doen door de weiischelijkheid te 
overwegen van het uitgeven van zoodanige 
boeken aan te moedigen door onder geschikte 
financieeJe voorwaarden de eerste uitgaven van de 
beste goedgekeurde werken in zoodanige onder- 
werpen te waarborgen. 

15. Het stelsel van inspectie in Naturellen 
scholen is hetzelfde als in scholen voor Blanken. 
Wegens hunne overleveringen en omstandigheden 
steunen de Naturellen onder wijzers meer dan 
andere onderwijzers op de inspecteurs. Uw 
Comite beveelt aan dat inspecteurs bij alle in- 
specties, ook informeele inspecties, voortgaan 
moeteii om met de onderwijzers zooveel mogelijk 
saamte werken en het geven van raad aan onder- 
wijzers te beschouwen als het niet minst be- 
langrijk deel van hun werk. 

16. Naturellen Opleidings Inrichtingen zijn on- 
ontbeerlijk voor eenig schema van Naturellen 
elementaire opvoeding, daar het duidelijk is dat 
de onderwijzers in Naturellen scholen zelve 
Naturellen moeten zijn, behalve in de hoogere 
standaards en in andere zeer buitengewone geval- 
len. Na de inzichten gehoord te hebben van de 
hoofden van Naturellen Opleidings Inrichtingen 
en van het Departement over het stelsel van toe- 
lagen aan kostscholen is uw Comite eenpa rig- 
van gevoelen dat het stelsel onbevredigend is, en 
beveelt dus de aanneming van een nieuw schema 
aan, onder hetwelk de Gouvernements toelagen 
beschouwd zullen worden als bearzen aan 
individuen ; clat een zeker toelage geschon- 
ken zal worden aan alie bevredigende leer- 
lingen in al de stadiums van de leerling- 
onderwijzers cursus en dat alle toelagen 



XXVI SELECT COMMITTEE ON 

gegradueerd zullen zijn zoodat ze hooger zullen 
zijn in de latere dan in de vroegere stadiums. Uw 
Comite gevoelt zich verplicht hier bij te voegen 
dat dit schema zoo ten uitvoer gelegd moet wor- 
den dat het Gouvernement niet meer kosten 
zal. In Bechuanaland bestaat er eenige moei- 
lijkheid omdat weinige, indien eenige, van de 
leerlingen de standaard van toegang tot de leer- 
lingen cursus bereiken. Uw Comite beveelt aan 
dat voor de volgende vijf jaren een stelsel 
in Bechuanaland ingevoerd worde, waardoor leer- 
lingen die de Yierde Standaard gepasseerd hebben 
in de gelegenheid mogen zijn om als onderwijzers 
opgeleid te worden, en indien zij bij voortduring 
bevrediging geven, dat zij provisioneele certin- 
katen ontvangen als leerling- onderwijzers voor 
werk noord van de Oranje Bivier. 

17. Er bestaat thans geen groote aanvraag om 
hooger onderwijs voor Naturellen, en geen voor- 
ziening voor zoodanig onderwijs wordt door de 
Staat gemaakt, die slechts toelagen geeft voor 
opleidings klassen, maar geen toelagen voor 
een hooge school cursus voor Naturellen. 
Eenige moeilijkheicl wordt soms ondervonden door 
Naturellen die Standaard YI. op de ouderdom van 
twaalf gepasseerd hebben en die niet tct de leer- 
ling klassen toegelaten worden voor de ouderdom 
van veertien. Uw Comite beschouwt dat de 
kwestie van zoodanige hooger onderwijs deel uit- 
maakt van de kwestie van de houding van 
de Staat tegenover het voorgestelde Inter- Staat 
College. 

18, Het oprichten van een Naturellen College is 
aanbevolen geworden, eensdeels om voorziening 
te maken voor het hooger onderwijs en ander- 
deels om te verhinderen dat Naturellen buiten- 
lands gaan om zoodanig onderwijs te vinden. 
Het getuigenis toont dat meer dan een honderd 
Zuid Afrikaansche Naturellen in de laatste jaren 
naar Colleges in de Yereenigde Staten en elders 
gegaan zijn ; dat er hier en daar een opening moge 
zijn voor Naturellen met een College opvoeding 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XXVI 1 

als beroeps-inannen onder liun eigen volk en als 
hoofdmannen ; en dat er een aanvraag is om 
hooger onderwijs, maar dat die aanvraag niet groot 
is. Het sehijnt ook dat vele Naturellen de leer- 
lingen cursus nemen omdat er, na de elementaire 
standaards, geen alternatieve cursus is. TJw 
Comite beschouwt dit onwenschelijk, daar de 
leerling cursus slechts bedoeld is voor de 
opleiding van onderwijzers. Met het oog op 
al de omstandigheden beschouwt uw Comite 
dat de aanvraag om hooger onderwijs niet op 
kunstmatige wijze behoort aangemoedigd te wor- 
den maar dat wanneer het blijkt echt te zijn, het 
dan niet geweigerd zal worden ; en zij beveelt aan 
dat na Standaard V. er, waar noodig, alterna- 
tieve cursussen behooren te zijn leidende naar 
middelbare, normale (leerling-klassen) en indus- 
trieele werk ; dat de schaal van school-gelden de- 
zelve zijn als in scholen voor Blanken ; dat toe- 
lagen voor middelbare en hooger onderwijs aan 
het Naturellen College gegeven worden op termen 
van dergelijke aard als die waarop and ere Colleges 
in de eerste dagen van hooger onderwijs in Zuid 
Afrika toelagen ontvingen ; dat het Gouverne- 
ment behoorlijk vertegenwoordigd moet zijn op 
het regeerend lichaam van het Naturellen College ; 
dat het werk tot en met inbegrip van de Matri- 
culatie cursus onderworpen zij aan de gewone 
Gouvernements inspectie ; dat opleiding in hand- 
werk deel uitmake van de College cursus en dat 
men zich streng zal houden aan de Universiteits 
standaard van het werk. 

19. Yerder doet uw Comite de volgende aanbe- 
velingen : — 

(a) Dat het onderscheid tusschen Zending en 
Naturellen scholen afgeschaft worde. 

(b) Dat zoodra mogelijk kinderen van Na- 
turellen en Gekleurden apart worden aan- 
getoond in de opgaven. 

(c) Dat de verschillende Zending-genootschap- 
pen ernstig verzocht worden om zoover 
mogelijk saam te werken in het organi- 



:;xvm select committee on 

zeeren van Naturellen opvoeding en> 
indien mogelijk, een centraal raadgevend 
Comite te stichten. 

20. Uw Comite gelooft dat de veranderingen in 
dit Eapport aanbevolen. zonder revolutionair te 
zijn, tezamen een groote verandering in het tegen- 
woordige stelsel van Naturellen onderwijs zullen 
teweegbrengen, waarvan dan ook ver-reikende 
gevolgen verwacht mogen worden. Om voor- 
ziening te maken voor speciale toelagen aan 
onderwijzers die bekwaam zijn om onderricht te 
geven in landbouw en in het aankweeken van 
boomen, zou het noodig zijn een nieuwe regulatie 
te passeeren, maar overigens konden de meeste 
voorgestelde veranderingen uitgevoerd worden 
door administratieve handeling. Uw Comite 
zou er op aandringen dat de voorgestelde hervorm- 
ingen in Naturellen Scholen en Opleidings In- 
rich tingen dadelijk aan de hand genomen worden 
en wenscht ten slotte de ernstige overtuiging uit 
te spreken dat het Parlement en het Gouverne- 
ment verstandig zullen handelen indien zij de 
loop van zaken in verband met Naturellen Onder- 
wijs naauwkeurig gadeslaan ; steeds waakzaam 
zijn en vast besloten om bij het praktisch ten uit- 
voer leggen van het stelsel nooit uit 't oog te ver- 
liezen het einddoel, en evenmin de groote 
kwesties die afhangen van de wijsheid van de 
politiek die men in dit opzicht volgt. 



H. E. S. FREMANTLE, 

Yoorzitter. 



Comite Kamer, 

Wetgevende Vergadering, 
25 Augustus, 1908. 



NATIVE EDUCATION. XXIX 



MINDERHEIDS RAPPORT. 



Het voorstel om hooger onderwijs aan Naturel- 
len te geven en de erkenning van een Inter- Staat 
College voor Naturellen door het Gouvernement 
behooren. in mijn opinie, daargelaten te worden, 
niet alleen omdat het aanzoek om zoodanig onder- 
wijs niet gemaakt wordt door de Naturellen als 
een volk, maar vooral met het oog op de tegen- 
woordige financieele positie van deze Kolonie en 
het schreeuwend onderscheid tusschen de belas- 
ting van wit en van zwart. Deze redenen en het 
feit dat een konsekwent en permanente naturellen 
politiek van levens-belang is voor de vereeniging 
van Zuid Afrika, verplichten mij aan de hand te 
geven dat de kwestie uitgesteld behoort te worden 
totdat de nieuwe Constitutie opgetrokken is door 
de afgevaardigden naar de Rationale Conventie. 

J. W. DE KOCK. 



PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. 



Proceedings of the Select Committee appointed by Orders 
of the House of Assembly, dated the 25th and 30th June, 1908, 
to inquire into and report upon the existing system of Native 
and Coloured Education ; the Committee to have power to 
take evidence and to call for papers, and to consist of The 
Colonial Secretary, Colonel Crewe, Messrs. Jagger, 
Levey, Murray, W. P. Schreiner, T. Searle, Colonel 
Stanford, Messrs. Fremantle, De Kock and Van Rooy. 



Tuesday, 30th June, 1908. 



PRESENT : 



Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 



Mr. W. P. Schreiner 
Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. Fremantle. 



Clerk read Order of the House, dated the 25th June, 1908, 
appointing the Committee. 

Resolved : That Mr. Fremantle be Chairman. 

Resolved : That there be laid before the Committee copies of all 
regulations dealing with the question of native education. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Thursday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Thursday, 2nd July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Clerk read Order of the House, dated the 30th June, that 
Messrs. de Kock and van Rooy be members of the Committee. 

Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- 
General of Education, was examined, and put in : 

(1) Return showing average cost per pupil in Native Industrial 

Schools. 

(2) Table of Standards of Attainments in Elementary Subjects. 

(3) Return of Numbers on Roll, Training Schools, 1908 and 
1892. [Appendix B.] 



XXX11 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT 

(1) Return of Aborigines' Schools (Order " C ") in the 
Transkeian Territories. [Appendix C] 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Monday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Monday, 6 th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman) 

Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Clerk read and laid upon the Table letter, dated the 4th instant, 
"from the Secretary to the Prime Minister, forwarding, in com- 
pliance with the resolution of the Committee, dated the 30th June, 
copies of all regulations dealing with the question of native 
education. [Appendix A.] 

Clerk submitted manuscript of Dr. Muir's evidence, given be- 
fore the Committee on the 2nd instant, in which he had made 
certain material alterations. 

Resolved : That these alterations be approved. 

Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- 
General of Education, was further examined, and put in :— 

(1) Curriculum for Aborigines' Schools. 

(2) Report on Gardens in connection with Aborigines' Schools. 

(3) Return of Native Population and classification of pupils 
in standards. [Appendix D.] 

(4) Return of White Schools (Al, A2, A3) in the Transkeian 
Territories ; 

and exhibited : — 

Papers in connection with School Inspector Morrison's scheme 
for Native Industrial Education. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Tuesday, 7th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 

Mr. Levey. Colonel Stanford. 

Mr. Murray. Mr. de Kock. 

Mr. T. Searle. Mr. van Rooy. 

Mr. Newton Ogilvie Thompson, Resident Magistrate, Kentani, 
and the Reverend Joseph George Sutton, Head of the Dale College, 
King William's Town, were examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
11 a.m. 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XXX Hi 

Wednesday, 8th July, 190S. 

PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 

Mr. Jagger. Colonel Stanford. 

Mr. Levey. Mr. de Kock. 

Mr. Murray. Mr. van Rooy. 

Mr. T. Searle. 
The Reverend Simon Peter Sihlali, Native Minister, Engcobo, 
was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10 a.m. 



Thursday, 9th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Reverend Simon Peter Sihlali, Native Minister, Engcobo, 
was further examined. 

The Reverend William Charles Willoughby, Principal of the 
Native Institute, Yryburg, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, 
at 11 a.m. 



Friday, 10th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 

The Reverend William Charles Willoughby was further 
examined, and put in extracts from the English Code of 
Regulations for Public Elementary Schools (1906) regarding 
Moral Instruction. 

During the examination of the witness, the Chairman left the 
room. 

Resolved : That Colonel Stanford take the Chair. 

The Chairman subsequently returned, and Colonel Stanford 
vacated the Chair. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, the 
11th instant, at 10.30 a.m. 



XXXIV PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT 

Tuesday, 14th July, 1908. 

PRESENT : 
Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 

The Reverend Dr. Walter Benson Rubusana, Ph.D., Native 
Minister, East London, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow^ at 
10.30 a.m. 



Wednesday, 15th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 

Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr, de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



The Reverend Dr. Walter Benson Rubusana, Ph.D., Native 
Minister, East London, was further examined. 

Mr. James McLaren, M.A., Inspector of Schools, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10 a.m. 



Thursday, 16th July, 1908. 



Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. Searle 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 

Colonel Stanford. 



Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Mr. James McLaren, M.A., Inspector of Schools, was further 
examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
9.30 a.m. 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 



XXXV 



Friday, 17th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 



Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Reverend James Henderson, Principal of the Lovedale 
Native Institute, was examined, and put in a Statement submitted 
by Dr. Neil Macvicar, M.D., D.P.H., Medical Officer to the Lovedale 
Mission. [Appendix 0.] 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10 a.m. 



Saturday, 18th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 

Mr. Levey. Colonel Stanford. 

Mr. Murray. Mr. de Kock. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. Mr. van Rooy. 
Mr. T. Searle. 

The Chairman laid upon the Table a Financial Return relating 
to the Lovedale Native Institute [Appendix F]. 

Mr. William Govan Bennie, B.A., Inspector of Schools, was 
examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Monday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Monday, 20th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. 



(Chairman). 

Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Chairman read and laid upon the Table a letter, dated the 
18th instant, from Mr. W. G. Bennie, Inspector of Schools, 
forwarding statement of percentages showing the rise in standard 
in certain aborigines' schools. 

Mr. John Tengo Jabavu, Editor of "Imvo," King William's 
Town, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10 a.m. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. E 



X.XXT1 PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT 

Tuesday, 21st July, 1908, 



PRESENT : 
Colonel Stanford (Acting Chairman). 

Mr. Levey. Mr. van Rooy. 

Mr. de Kock. 

In the absence of the Chairman, 

Resolved : That Colonel Stanford take the Chair. 

The Reverend Canon Cyril Edwin Earl Bulwer, of the Church 
of the Province of South Africa, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Wednesday, 22nd July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Jagger (Acting Chairman). 

Mr. Levey. Colonel Stanford. 

Mr. Murrav. Mr. de Kock. 

Mr. T. Searle. Mr. van Rooy. 

In the absence of the Chairman, 

Resolved : That Colonel Stanford take the Chair. 

The Reverend David Duncan Stormont, M.A., B.D., L.C.t., 
LL.B., Principal of Blythswood Institution, Butterworth, was 
examined. 

During the examination of the witness, Colonel Stanford left 
the room. 

Resolved : That Mr. Jagger take the Chair. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Friday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Friday, 24th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FkEMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Chairman read and laid upon the table a letter, dated the 
13th instant, from the Reverend D. Malgas, Holy Trinity Mission, 
Fort Beaufort, submitting to the Committee certain suggestions on 
the subject of Native Education. [Appendix L.] 

The Reverend Richard Fraser Hornabrook, Governor of the 
Wesleyan Training Institution, Healdtown, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned till Tuesday, at 10.30 
a.m. 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XXXV11 

Tuesday, 28th July, 1908. 



Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Mr. Levej 7 . 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 

The Reverend John Theodore Sonnen, Curate, St. Mary's 
Church, Cape Town, was examined. 

The Committee deliberated. 

Resolved : That the Chairman specially report as follows : — 
Your Committee having been appointed on the 25th June to con- 
sider the existing system of Native and Coloured Education, 
decided to deal first with Native Education. Your Committee 
have met seventeen times and examined fourteen witnesses on this 
subject. Your Committee now find that it would be impossible to 
deal adequately with the question of the education of coloured 
people without enlarging their inquiry to undue proportion and 
deferring its conclusion to a period in the Session too late to enable 
the House to consider their report and take action in reference to 
it. They therefore recommend that the House should release 
them of the task of inquiring into Coloured Education ; and, in 
view of the importance of this subject, they further recommend 
that a separate inquiry into it should be made at an early date. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Thursday, at 
10 a.m. 



Thursday, 30th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. Fremantle (Chairman), 



Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 



Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 
Mr. T. Searle, 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Chairman read and laid upon the Table a letter, dated the 
22nd instant, from the Rev, James Henderson, Principal of the 
Lovedale Native Institute, submitting to the Committee : 

(1) Statement by the late Dr. Stewart relating to the present 
system of education in Cape Colony as supplied to 
Natives. [Appendix M.] 

(2) Paper by the Reverend H, A. Junod, entitled " Practical 

Hints about the Reform of Native Education." [Appen- 
dix N.] 

(3) Paper by Mr. K. A. H. Houghton, entitled " The Problem 

of Bantu Education in South Africa." 
(1) Paper by Dr. Neil Macvicar, on Health Teaching in 

Schools. 
(5) Copy of the Central African Education Code of 1905. 



xxxvm 



PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT 



Mr. Charles Robert Rennie, M.L.A., was examined. 

The Reverend Johannes du Plessis, General Mission Secretary- 
of the Dutch Reformed Church, was examined, and put in a 
Memorandum on Native Education. [Appendix H.] 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
iO a.m. 



Friday, 31st July, 1908, 



PRESENT : 



Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Clerk laid upon the Table a list of corrections to his evidence 
forwarded by Mr. W. G. Bennie. [Appendix P.] 

Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- 
General of Education, was further examined, and put in a State- 
ment containing statistics regarding the operation of the Glen 
Grey Act as regards Education. [Appendix EJ 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Tuesday, 4th August, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, at 
10.30 a.m. 



Tuesday, 11th August, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. Fremantle (Chairman). 



Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P.* Schreiner. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 

Clerk read and laid upon the Table a letter, dated the 8th 
instant, from the Right Reverend the Coadjutor- Bishop of Cape 
Town, forwarding written statement on the subject of Native 
Education. [Appendix G.] 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, at 
9.30 a.m. 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XXXIX 

Tuesday, 18th August, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 
The Colonial Secretary. | Colonel Crewe. 

The Chairman submitted a Draft Report. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Thursday, at 
9.30 a.m. 



Thursday, 20th August, 1908. 

PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy, 



The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
10 a.m. 



Friday, 21st August, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. T. Searle. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy, 

The Chairman laid upon the Table a written statement by the 
Revd. William Stuart Burnhill, on the subject of Native Education. 
[Appendix L] 

The Committee proceeded to consider the Draft Report. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Monday, at 
10 a.m. 



Monday, 24th August, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Roov. 



The Chairman laid upon the Table : 

(1) A Statement by the Reverend E. G. Marx, Goshen, Cath- 

cart. [Appendix J.] 

(2) A Statement by the Reverend W. C. Willoughby, Tiger- 
kloof, near Vryburg. [Appendix K.] 



Xl PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT 

The Committee resumed consideration of the Draft Report. 
Paragraphs One to Seventeen put and agreed to. 
Paragraph Eighteen put, as follows : — 

18. The establishment of a Native College has been recom- 
mended, partly in order to provide for the higher educa- 
tion of natives and partly to prevent natives from going 
out of the country in search of it. The evi deuce shows 
that upwards of a hundred South African natives have 
in recent years gone to colleges in the United States and 
elsewhere, that there may be some opening for natives 
with a college education as professional men among their 
own people and as headmen, and that there is a demand 
for higher education, but that it is not large. It also 
appears that many natives enter the normal course solely 
because there is no alternative course beyond the elemen- 
tary standards. Your Committee regard this as unde- 
sirable, since the normal course is designed only for 
training teachers. In view of all the circumstances, they 
consider that the demand for higher education should 
not be artificially stimulated, but that when shown to be 
possible it should not be refused, and recommend that 
after Standard V. there should, where necessary, be 
alternative courses (leading up to secondary, normal and 
industrial work), that the scale of fees should be similar 
to those charged in European colleges, that grants for 
secondary and higher work be made to the native college 
on terms similar to those on which grants were made to 
other colleges in the earlier days of higher education in 
South Africa, that the Government be adequately repre- 
sented on the governing body of the native college, that 
the work up to and including the Matriculation course be 
subject to the usual Government inspection, that manual 
training be an integral part of the college course, and that 
the university standard of work be strictly maintained. 
Upon which the Committee divided : — 

Ayes — 8. Noes — 1. 

The Chairman. Mr. de Kock. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. ' 

Colonel Stanford. 

Mr. van Rooy. 

Paragraph accordingly agreed to. 

Paragraphs Nineteen and Twenty put and agreed to. 

Mr. de Kock intimated his intention to submit a Minority 
Report. 

The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 
a.m. 






COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. xll 

Tuesday, 25th August. 1008. 



PRESENT : 
MR. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Levy. 
Mr. Murrav. 



Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. van Roov. 



The Committee resumed consideration of the Draft Report,, 
which was adopted. 

Resolved : That the Chairman report accordingly. 



MINUTES OF EYIDENCE. 

SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE 
EDUCATION. 



Thursday, 2nd July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FKEMANTLE (Chairman 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. cle Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., 

examined. 

1. Chairman.'] Yon are the Superintendent- Pr. Thomas 
General of Education ?— Yes. lSd. ^ t? 

2. Have you any papers to produce ? — Nobody f.r.s. 
can really understand the present state of native j u i y JTioos, 
education without knowing the history of it, how 

it arose, how it became connected with the Govern- 
ment — because for a long period of years it was 
totally unconnected with the Government. It 
arose out of missionary effort, and goes away back 
to the arrival of the Moravian Society in South 
Africa, probably about the year 1790. There is a 
paragraph in the official " History of Education in 
Cape Colony " that gives the details in few words. 
This I may read to you : u It is almost certain that 
by this time the number of mission schools for 
coloured children considerably exceeded the num- 
ber of all kinds of schools for white children. ..." 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education* B 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



N 1:1 r°Mr ^' ^ r ' J a 99 er '~\ What time is that ? — The end of 
ll!d., m.a.,'' 1838. The passage is taken from a special report 
f.r.s. on education which was made for the Imperial 
July 2,n908. Government some years ago. This paragraph, I 
think, is worth absorption in your records. " The 
missionary movement begun by the Moravians in 
1792 had been taken up by the London Missionary 
Society in 1799, the South African Society about 
the same time, the Wesleyan Church in 1816, the 
Glasgow Society in 1821, the Ehenish Society in 
1829, the Paris Society in 1829, and the Berlin Society 
in 1834. It had thus gradually assumed large pro- 
portions, and we are consequently not surprised 
to learn that at the time now reached there were 
over 50 European missionaries at work in the 
Colony. . All of these with their numerous helpers 
interested themselves in the education of the 
coloured races, no fees being charged, and the 
training being in most cases similar to that given 
in the schools attached to churches in England. In 
. almost every village, we are told, a branch of one 
or other society existed, by means of which the 
education of coloured people, both children and 
adults, was fostered." 

. The point of this is that in 1838 there were 
more coloured children being educated in Cape 
Colony than there were white children — that that 
system went on without systematic grants until 
the Act of 1865 was passed, and then the whole 
thing got a sort of legal status. In 1865 this is 
the state of affairs. The schools were then 
divided, as you know, into three grades : the A 
schools, the B schools and the C schools. The 
A schools were the public undenominational 
schools. 

4. Mostly for whites ? — Mostly for whites. The 
B schools, called mission schools, were for coloured 
people in the Colony. The C schools were called 
aborigines' schools, but in reality were mission 
schools as well. They were given the name 
aborigines' for distinction's sake, and as a rule 
they contained nothing but natives. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 



5. And you have dropped the distinction of ' C ' D ^ Thomas 
now, have you not ? — No ; we are still forced to llj^mu!* 
keep it in use because of the Act. F ^ s - 

6. Mr. van Rooy.] Were the mission schools j u i y 2~ 1908. 
mostly confined to coloured people ? — Yes, in the 
Colony proper ; but the separation in space is not 

quite complete, because in some Divisions of the 
Colony you have both mission and C schools — for 
example, on the Frontier, in King William's Town. 

7. Mr. Murray.'] Is there any difference in the 
grants allowed to B and C schools ? — Yes. The 
grants for the B schools were legislated for on a 
different scale. It would be a little difficult for 
me at present to give you minute details regarding 
that, but there was a marked distinction between 
B and C schools as to grants. 

8. Chairman.'] You mean in 1865 ? — Yes. Even 
in 1865 the state of affairs was such that there 
were more children in the mission schools — three 
times more children in the mission schools — than 
all the other schools put together. The number 
of pupils on the roll at that date was 11,737 
mission and aborigines, the Government schools 
510, and in the aided public schools 3311. 

9. Mr. Jagger.] Surely that is not a fair repre- 
sentation of the Government schools in 1865 ? — 
Yes. These figures are absolutely reliable. 

10. Chairman.} Have you any figures for private 
schools ? — No ; we have no figures for private 
schools at that date. 

11. Mr. T. Searle.] There were a great many 
private schools ?— There may have been a great 
many private schools, but we have no record of 
them. So it was the Act of 1865 that really 
established an organized system of schools for all 
classes of the population. 

12. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Public undenomi- 
national ? — Yes, for whites. 

13. Mr. van Rooy.] I suppose you have no data 
about those private schools, as to under whose 
control and care they mostly were in 1865 ? — 
Private schools for whites ? 



4 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 14. Yes ? — I should say the great majority would 
ltS.jvla^ be more or less under the wing of a Church. 

F.is. 15 Dutcll Reformed ?— The Dutch Eeformed 

July 2, 1908. Church, and the English Church as well. 

16. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] Wesleyan as w T ell? — 
Wesleyan as well, especially in the Eastern 
Province. Thus, at that time there was a very 
careful division between the various grades of 
schools. These C schools I am now alluding to 
were divided into three sets, exactly as the public 
schools were divided — CI, C2 and C3 — and the dis- 
tinction between them was marked in the follow- 
ing way. This is the schedule to the Act of 1865. 
The lowest grade was where the lowest attendance 
was not less than 25, and where the teacher was 
qualified to teach in the native language, but not 
in English. The second class was where the teacher 
was qualified to give instruction in English, as 
well as in the native language ; and the first class 
was where there were two qualified teachers able 
to teach English. These distinctions, like dis- 
tinctions in reference to public undenominational 
schools, were more on paper than in fact. The 
truth is even when I came to the Colony you could 
not make them out with certainty. 

17. What date ? — In 1892 you could not always 
make out these distinctions. If an inspector had 
entered, or an outsider had entered, a C school 
without previous information, he would have had 
very great difficulty in telling what grade it 
belonged to, unless by its size. 

18. In that connection, can you say whether 
there was any number of schools of that grading 
in which the teacher did not understand English, 
and taught in the native language ? — A consider- 
able number. 

19. Chairman.'] That is in 1892 ?— No ; at the 
time I was speaking of — in 1865. 

20. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] Did it dwindle between 
that and 1892 ? — It went down considerably. There 
was at that time no proper organization for the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 



training of teachers, and men with very poor Dr. Thomas 

txs a- t^jxV l ^ Muir, C.M.G.. 

qualifications had to he employed. ll.d., m.a., 

21. ilfr. Murray.] On that point, you would see F ^ s - 
from the inspectors' reports whether there were j u i y 2, 1908. 
many schools where only native languages were 
taught? — Quite well, by looking at the reports 
before 1892. 

22. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Could you have a 
Minute drafted going through the history a little 
from 1865 onwards, showing the process of the 
decay of that system, giving the figures ? — The 
teachers ? 

23. Yes ; in reference to the number of schools 
where the teachers were teaching only in the 
native language ? — Yes, I think I should have the 
means of telling. 

24. Mr. de Kock.] Will you leave it at 1892 ?— 
No ; I will carry it on from that, if possible. 
Well, then, since that date there has practically 
been no legislation in reference to native educa- 
tion ; we have gone on these lines since that date. 

25. Mr. Jagger.] Have,you increased the grants ? 
— Yes, we have increased the grants ; but there 
has been no serious other change. 

26. Chairman.] That is, under the Act you have 
increased the grants ? — Yes ; otherwise the system 
has stood as stated, save that there was at one 
time a demand made to make education more 
industrial, with the consequence that there was a 
considerable expenditure on certain separate insti- 
tutions for industrial education. I could give you 
accurately the present figures in reference to 
industrial education. There are at present 11 
institutions where industrial education is given in 
accordance with this scheme that I was referring 
to as having come into existence in 1854 and 
incorporated at a later date in the Act. 

27. Where are those ? — Blythswood, Butterworth, 
Clarkebury, Lovedale, Osborn, Umtata, and Tiger- 
kloof. The last is a quite recent thing, to try to 
provide for the Bechuanas. Those are for boys. 
Then for girls : Blythswood again, Lesseyton, 



b MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas Graham stown, and Lovedale again ;. two of them 

ll!d., m.a.,' are repeated. It may be interesting to you, be- 

f.r.s. cause we have often talked so much about 

July 2, 1908. increasing the amount of industrial education in 

connection with natives, to know what the present 

system costs. The number of boys taught in these 

first seven institutions is 214. The cost to the 

Government is £2,106 2s. 6d. ; in otherwords.it 

costs the Government £9 16s. lOd. per pupil. 

28. Mr. Jagger.~] What are they taught now ?— 
In different institutions there are different arrange- 
ments. In the very complete institutions they 
have carpentry, wagon -making and blacksmith 
work. In one institution they have got printing. 

29. Do not you bring them up to a certain 
standard before they take on ? — Yes. 

30. What standard ? — Standard IV. is aimed at. 

31. Mr. van Eooy.] Have there been any indus- 
trial schools for white children in those places ?— 
Up to a certain date there was none. We treated 
the natives a great deal better than we treated the 
white boys in this respect ; but in a certain year I 
recommended to the Government that the rates 
available for coloured children should be made 
available for white children, and that is the date 
from which has arisen our industrial white schools, 

32. Mr. de Koch] And the year ?— 1893 I think 
it was. If I am wrong I will correct it in my 
evidence, because I am not quite sure about the 
date. To return to the natives, there are L62 girls 
receiving industrial education. They are taught 
domestic work. For instance, in such an institu- 
tion as Blythswood they actually do almost all the 
work of the place ; in other words, the managers 
try to avoid employing servants. 

33. They train domestic servants ? —They train 
domestic servants. I do not think many of them 
ever go to domestic service, all the same. What 
happens is they get married. There are 162 girls, 
as I have said, the total cost to the Government 
being £585, and the cost per girl £3 12s. 3d. The 
reason for the considerable difference between the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 



rates for boys and girls is that the cost of plant D r : Thomas 
necessary for teaching the latter is so much llId^S,'' 
smaller. I put in the return for the Native Indus- F - B f- 
trial Schools. [Witness put in document]. j u i y 2^908. 

34. Mr. van Rooy.] I do not know whether this 
question would fall within the scope of our 
inquiry, but perhaps you would be willing to tell, 
or can tell, whether any of these missionary 
societies ever interested themselves in education 
amongst whites in those days ? — Yes, in this way : 
for instance a missionary institution brought out 
a certain number of missionaries. A number of 
those became married in time, and there were 
children born, and those children got their educa- 
tion at the mission stations. Then sometimes 
there were no public schools in the neighbourhood 
of the mission station, in which case the institu- 
tion would take in such white children as cared 
to come. 

35. Mixed with coloured ? — Yes. 

36. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] Of course there was 
always a strong prejudice on the part of the white 
people in sending their children to the same school 
if they could avoid it ? — Yes ; but in many cases 
they could not help it. In the case of Lovedale, 
for instance, at one time there was a considerable 
number of white children being educated there. 
Now there are practically next to none, because we 
told these institutions that they were for native 
education — that they had their grants for native 
education — and unless there was very good reason 
otherwise they should stick to that. 

37. Mr. van Rooy.] Was there any cause which 
was detrimental to the natives being educated in 
the, same school? — No, I cannot say so. We did 
not think it was the right thing, schools having 
been duly provided for whites, coloured and 
aborigines. I am very glad to say there has been 
a considerable change of opinion in reference to 
this. At first I found some opposition to separating 
the coloured from the white children, but now the 
reverse is the case, so far as C schools are 
concerned . 



8 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Muir T c°M a ^' ^k en ^ ne co ^ oure( i people are more satisfied 
ll!d m m.a.,'' with this change ? — I am not in a position to say 
f.r.s. that, but I know that authorities of the institutions 
July 2,: 1908. are quite glad to confine themselves to their 
proper work. Take a place like Lovedale, where 
you have the town of Alice close to it, and where 
there is a good public school. There was some 
complaint a little while ago about the Lovedale 
people taking in children, when for some reason 
or other, the parents were discontented with the 
public school — in reference to fees or something. 
I had to communicate with the Lovedale authori- 
ties, and they told me it was not at all their desire 
to enter into competition with the public school, 
and from a certain date they would see their fees 
were at least the same as at the public school. 

39. Chairman.'] That is for the whites ? — For the 
whites. 

40. I think it would be desirable if you con- 
tinued your statement ? — Yes, I stopped to deal 
with industrial education, because of the fact that 
a change had been introduced in 1865, grants being 
then first given for industrial education as part of 
the regular school system. 

41. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Would you be able to 
refer us to any Parliamentary resolution or regu- 
lation determining the establishment of these 
industrial schools ? — What I was reading to you 
was practically a Parliamentary regulation. The 
exact words of the schedule can be given. 

42. I mean with regard to the industrial ? — Yes, 
that is also here. 

43. Chairman.'] Have you the date at which this 
regulation about industrial education was passed ? 
^-Yes, I have that here. In 1865 ; this is what 
appeared in the schedule — or at least it is an 
abstract of it, but we can get the exact words : " The 
pupils were to receive ' suitable elementary educa- 
tion ' in English or the native language, or in both, 
and, in addition, ' suitable industrial training.' 
Industrial training for boys included carpentry, 
wagon-making, blacksmith's work, tailoring, shoe- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. \) 

making, printing and bookbinding ; and for girls, -j>r. Thomas 
* household work.' " ll!d., m.a " 

44. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Did the industrial «* 
system spring from that in 1865 without further j u i y 2, 1908. 
legislation ? — No ; there was further legislative 
action later, which I insert also. In 1877 there 

were promulgated still more school regulations, and 
under that there was the following : " The second 
matter dealt with was the subject of industrial 
education in District Boarding Schools and 
Aborigines Schools, and the regulations under 
this head were supplementary merely to 
those already in force. In the case of the former . 
class of schools, an annual grant of £60 was offered, 
as before, in aid of the expenses of an Industrial 
Department or Trade Class, provided that there 
was a sufficient attendance of pupils of suitable 
age. In the case of Native Industrial Institutions, 
it was stated that an annual grant of £120 would 
be given towards the salary of a qualified trade- 
teacher in carpentry, wagon-making, smiths' 
work, or leather- work. Besides this annual grant 
in aid of the teacher's salary, there was also avail- 
able an outfit grant of £30 to be devoted to the 
purchase of tools." This was in 1877. 

45. Were those regulations a matter of Parlia- 
mentary discussion ? — They are Parliamentary 
regulations. 

46. Adding to the existing regulations ? — Yes. 

47. Chairman.'] It was not an Act, but it was 
.passed under the Act of 1865 ?— Yes, by Parlia- 
ment. 

48. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Can you tell the Com- 
mittee where they are printed ? — Yes ; they are 
printed still in all the regulations. 

49. Chairman.'] Has there been any further 
change of system since then? — Not that I know of 
at the present moment. The old curriculum was, 
of course, altered at the same time as the curricu- 
lum for white schools. That was in 1893, I think. 
I can give you the standards that were in force in 
1891, and the standards that were put in force in 
1893. 



10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE 

or, Thomas 50. And those are still in force ? — And those are 
llj)., m.a.;' still in force. I have here a table of Standards of 
f.r.s. Attainments in elementary subjects, which I hand 
July 2, 1908. in. This will give an idea of what was in 
existence prior to 1892. Suppose we take the case 
of Arithmetic. Arithmetic in Standard I., simple 
addition and multiplication as far as 6 times 12 ; 
Standard II., any example in simple rules, as far 
as short division, the multiplication table ; Stand - 
III., long division, compound rules (money), tables 
of weights and measures in use in the Colony ; 
Standard IV., reduction, easy mental exercises, 
and vulgar fractions (elementary exercises). 
Geography began in Standard III., Grammar 
began in Standard IV. That was the condition of 
affairs in 1891. We did not go beyond Standard 
IV. you will observe. The fact is there were few 
schools that went beyond Standard V., even white 
schools, in those days. [ Witness handed in 
document. ] 

51. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] No native schools 
above Standard IV. ? — No native schools above 
Standard IV. I can give you the exact number of 
children who at that date went above Standard 
IV., and, it has to be noticed, they went above 
Standard IV. for the purpose of becoming teachers. 
In 1892 the number of children that went above 
Standard IV. was 119. 

52. Mr. Jagger.] Coloured or white ? — Natives. 
I am dealing with the Transkei, you understand. 

53. Chairman.] Aborigines' schools ? — Yes. 
These were to be teachers, mark you ; these were 
not in the ordinary standards of the school, but 
were looking forward to being teachers — 36 at 
Fort Beaufort (Healdtown), 10 at Stutterheim, 36 
at Lovedale and 37 at Blythswood. [Witness 
handed in document.] 

54. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] All training for 
teachers ? — Yes. 

55. Chairman.] Is that above Standard IV. ? — 
That is above Standard IV. It really means 
Standard V. and nothing more, because, as I say, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 11 

there was as a rule no teacher who had any Dr. Thomas 
higher qualification than Standard Y. Then at a j^d^mJa? 
later date the whole of the training institutions F -^ s - 
were gone over, and certain of them selected to be j u i y 2, 1908. 
training schools. I cannot give the exact date of 
that at present from memory, but we have now in 
operation in the Colony and Territories 11 training 
schools for aborigines, and the total number of 
teachers in training is 920. Fort Beaufort, St. 
Matthew's, Lovedale, Blythswood, have all of 
them far more pupils being trained than there 
were in the whole Colony prior to 1892. Then it 
needs to be remembered that instead of Stan- 
dard V. being what was sufficient to make a 
teacher, there is not one entered now who has not 
passed Standard YL, and he requires to remain 
three years to obtain the Third-Class Teachers' 
Certificate. 

56. Mr. W, P. Schreiner.'] What proportion go 
as far as compared with matriculation here ? — We 
can scarcely compare them, because ^hey do not 
have matriculation subjects. 

57. Leave out matriculation ; what proportion 
go to the corresponding stage ? — A comparatively 
small proportion. I should not be surprised if 
out of the 920 there be not more than between 50 
and 70 who obtain the T 3 Certificate. 

58. Is that annually ? — Annually. 

59. Mr. Jagger.] Can the schools absorb all 
that number ? — Every one of them, Indeed, half 
of the trouble connected with the matter is that we . 
need to employ others who are not capable and 
who go away from these training institutions 
before they have finished their course. 

60. Do they stick to their profession ? — Yes, 
especially the men. 

61. What is the average cost ? — Training ? 

62. Yes ? — I think it would cost more than 
£2,700 a year in maintenance alone. 

63. Mr. Schreiner.] Teacher training? — Yes. 
The growth of native education has been so great 
that missionaries constantly, and somewhat ex- 



12 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

S r ' T i l S cusably, bribe teachers to come away before their 
ll.d., m.a., course is finished. 

f.r.s. 54 The number of children, I think, is close on 

July 2, 1908. 100,000 ? — Yes, who are not white. 

65. Native and coloured children close on 
100,000 ? — Yes. Here it is in a very compact form. 
The number of aborigines' schools in the fourth 
quarter of 1892 was 273. In the fourth quarter of 
1907 there were 770. The enrolment rose from 
15,000 to 45,000, and the attendance rose from 10,000 
to 36,000. The notable feature is the great im- 
provement that has taken place in school attend- 
ance. You see the rise in attendance is far greater 
than the rise in enrolment. [ Witness handed in 
document.] 

66. That is solely aborigines ? — Yes, but not 
those who are on this side of the Border. It would 
cost a great deal of trouble to separate out those 
at the schools in East London, King William's 
Town, Queen's Town and so forth. 

67. Mr. Murray.] In regard to those figures, 
105,000 natives and coloured children, did you 
take the schools in the Colony? They surely 
would bring the figure up higher than in 1838 ? — 
Yes, certainly. 

68. I understand from your statement there 
were more pupils in 1838 than now ? — No. I said 
there were more coloured than white children in 
1838, and even now the same statement holds. 

69. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] But not in proportion 
to the population. There is a very much smaller 
proportion of coloured children to the native 
population being educated as compared with the 
white people? — Yes. I think in the Transkei at 
present there is not more than one in five coloured 
children being educated. 

70. Mr. van Rooy.~\ There has been a great 
advance in regard to native education ? — Yes. 

71. What about the industrial schools? Do 
they take to them as well ? — Yes, but the growth 
of such schools is a question of cost. When you 
have to pay £9 for the education of a boy the 
money does not go very far. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 13 

72. I mean do they take to that as well, and Dr. Thomas 
would they be anxious to see these schools lSd, kf^ 
increased ? — I think so, and, as a matter of fact, ¥B f- 
we have increased the number very considerably. j u i y 2, 1908. 
although we have not increased the grant, because 

at a certain date, when there was a demand for 
more grants and we had not the money to spend 
on them, we said : " Why not take in a certain 
number of boys who are willing to be trained, and 
train them along with those receiving grants ? " 
The consequence is, the number of boys being 
trained is very considerably more than the number 
of boys that get grants. There are certain occupa- 
tions they do like to go to. They do like wood- 
work, or anything mechanical, and they are 
uncommonly proud of going to printing, which is 
about the last thing one would think there is 
much need for. 

73. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] For the £9 a head you 
are really educating, industrially, a great many 
who are not included in that estimate ? — No. 

74. Mr. Jagger. ~] Is that £9, then, the average 
for the grants you make ? — Yes. The number 
given here is the number of pupils under instruc- 
tion, whether they get grants or not ; so the £9 is 
the average for the whole, aided and unaided. 

75. The grant is considerably higher than that ? 
— The grant is £15. 

76. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] The demand is con- 
siderable for that kind of education, if available ? 
—Yes. 

77. Chairman.] Is not that a very questionable 
way of giving grants ? — It is very questionable 
whether any of these grants should be given. It 
is a question, really, if the whole subject of indus- 
trial education should not be dealt iwith by itself. 
What is the best form of industrial education to 
give to the natives is a matter deserving most 
serious consideration. 

78. Mr. Jagger.] Is not industrial education 
expensive all the world over ? — The most expen- 
sive education of all, because of the plant and the 
wear and tear of it. 



14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 79. Colonel Stanford, .] Do you include the schools 

l£d.?mjl ," under the Transkeian Council ?— No. The Trans- 

F.ks. keian Council School is not under the department, 

July 2, 1908. but the authorities are very willing to take advice 

from the department. 

80. Mr. van Rooy.~\ There has been practically 
no advantage from the industrial training 
given to the girls, I understand ? But does the 
training to boys give good results in after life ? — I 
have not the means of really judging, but I should 
think it must be a very good thing for those boys 
to get some form of handiwork tiaining. 

81. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] You are not express- 
ing the opinion that the industrial training of the 
girls does no good ? — No, I would not. Those who 
expect to get the girls for domestic servants may 
say that, but it is good for the girls themselves 
whether tliey enter service or not. 

82. Colonel Stanford.] And also the men marry- 
ing them ? — Yes. 

83. Mr. Jagger.] Was not a record got out ? — 
Yes. 

84. That is satisfactory ? — Quite. But that is 
not the point. It is a question whether the indus- 
trial education which Parliament has up till now 
decided on is the best form of education for the 
country. 

85. You do not do anything as regards agricul- 
ture ? — Some years ago I had the idea we might 
try that, on the ground that it might be cheaper. 
It would still be industrial education, but it would 
be cheaper than this kind of education. I got a 
return from all the Inspectors of the schools that 
had land adjoining available for such a purpose, 
and I am sorry to say it was quite unsatisfactory. 
I think I can furnish you with the replies that 
came in to that ; it is very instructive. 

86. Why unsatisfactory ? — The land in almost 
every case available for cultivation was distant 
from the school. 

87. Could you not get over that ? Taking the 
basis that you have the land provided by the State 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 15 

ov some local body, would it not be far better to Dr. Thomas 
give the industrial education in that direction of L £5>., ma!,' 
agriculture rather than mechanical ? — I incline F -^- s - 
towards that. j u i y 2, 1908. 

88. Would it not be cheaper ? — Yes. 

89. Would it not be cheaper and better for the 
State to leave the other work for white people ? — 
I think it would be better for everybody. 

90. Mr. Levey.] Do you think native teachers, 
before obtaining certificates, should pass an exami- 
nation in agriculture ? — There should be a practi- 
cal examination in agriculture if the subject were 
expected to be taught. 

91. You know that many of them do not even 
know how to plough ? — Yes. More than that ; 
there is a tendency at present to consider themselves 
above manual work. 

92. Chairman.'] You say the present system of 
industrial training is a system which has been 
agreed upon b} r Parliament ? — Not agreed upon by 
Parliament, but actually passed by Parliament. 

93. That is, Parliament has drifted into it ?— 
I do not think it would be fair to say Parliament 
has drifted into it ; it was a direct action of Parlia- 
ment. 

94. The present system has been thought out 
more by missionaries than officials of the State ? — 
I daresay the missionaries were consulted in the 
matter, and they might even have suggested modi- 
fications of the scheme. I rather think the move- 
ment came from the public, who said, " Your 
missionary education is not the education we 
want." The actual introducer was Sir George 
Grey. 

95. Having said that, did the State control the 
form in which industrial education was to be 
given ? — Yes/by means of these grants. 

96. Those grants were given simp]y for industrial 
education, were not they ? — No, not in such general 
terms. I have already read a paragraph from the 
schedule to the Act specifying the things to be 
taught. 



16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr.-Thomas 97. Mr. Levey.] And agriculture is omitted ? — 

lkd.™' It is not mentioned. 

F.ks. 98. Chairman.] That was really the start of 

July 2^1908. industrial education ? — Yes. I do not understand 
why, for example, other subjects were introduced 
into it. For instance, bookbinding. As already 
remarked it is a serious question for anybody 
interested in the future of this country to find out 
what is the best system of teaching the natives 
manual work. 

99. Mr. Jagger.] Has not the Department 
rather let matters drift in regard to this matter ? 
— I do not think so. 

100. But you yourself just now said you do not 
think the present system is the best ? — Yes. I 
have represented it over and over again — the need 
for this — and I have done all I can in the matter 
by doing what Parliament did not ask me to do, 
namely, to find out what we could do for agricul- 
ture, but it is a problem whose solution involves 
so much money. 

101. But no scheme has ever been put before 
Parliament that I am aware of ? — No, this is the 
duty of Government. 

102. Has any scheme been put before the 
Minister ? — Yes, on more than one occasion ; I do 
not mean a scheme, but the facts of the case — and 
the difficulties of the solution. 

103. Chairman."] You mean you made the repre- 
sentations to the Ministers from time to time ? — 
Yes, and also in my Beports the cost of manual 
education is referred to more than once. 

104. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] The institutions are 
really private institutions ; is not that so ? — Yes. 

105. And unless they have land in their neigh- 
bourhood it means establishing, at very great cost 
to the public, public institutions in suitable 
localities ? — Yes, and you have a case in point 
which I have heard of more than once. You 
have a farm which was given to the Lovedale 
people free of cost. There they have had every 
opportunity to develop agricultural education ; 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 17 

and I think it will be worth while to get the Dr. Thomas 
history of that undertaking. ^ c #f " 

106. At Lovedale ?— Yes. - fAa 

107. Chairman.'] When was it given ? — I am j u i y 2 , 1908. 
sorry I do not know. I know about the giving of 

it : John Stephen, the ship-builder, bought a farm 
adjoining Lovedale, and presented it to Lovedale 
when he was in this country. Here, however, you 
must bear in mind I am telling you a number of 
these things from history, and not because they 
came within my own time at all. 

108. Mr. Jagger.} Is not the Lovedale institution 
supposed to teach the agricultural side ? — No, not 
in connection with the Education Department. 

109. Not at all ?— No. I know they tried for 
a while to have a certain number of natives work- 
ing on the farm, and I have been told that once 
upon a time they had servants actually — the farm 
being farmed as an ordinary farm. The present 
condition of affairs I do not know. 

110. Mr. Levey.] They would rather take up 
anything but agriculture ? — Yes, because the 
natives have now formed their own idea what 
education is ; and I do not see why they should 
not have it, provided they pay for it like other 
people. 

111. Mr. Jagger, .] "Would" it be possible, or would 
it be fair, to divert this money you now pay for 
this industrial education solel}~ to agricultural 
education ? — It would not be fair to the institu- 
tions, because they have laid out a considerable 
sum of their own money on plant. 

112. Not a portion of it ? — That might be fair, 
but it should not be done without inquiry and 
without due notice. 

113. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] While you recognize 
that agricultural training is the most important 
industrial education, you would not say the native 
should be excluded from other education by means 
of actual legislation ? — I should say the natives 
should not be excluded from any form of educa- 
tion. 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. 



"18 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 114. Chairman.'] And certain things it is desirable 

ll!d.jK,"' they should learn ? — Yes, like wagon-making, 

E.R.S. carpentry and blacksmithing ; but not these alone. 

July 27i908. 115. Mr. van Eooy.] With regard to the attempts 

that have been made to introduce agricultural 

training for natives on whose authority has that 

been ? — I only know of the one at Lovedale. The 

Education Department has nothing to do with 

that. 

116. Have not suggestions come from the Trans- 
k£ian General Council on the subject of agricul- 
tural training ? — I cannot say in detail now, but I 
think it is very likely, because they have been 
interesting themselves in this education. 

117. They have set apart certain farms for ex- 
perimental stations, and given considerable grants ? 
—Yes. 

118. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] And that they have 
done voluntarily out of the rat6s they levy them- 
selves ? — Yes, a course which has done an immense 
deal for native education. We have at the pre- 
sent moment 13 Magistracies where the educational 
clauses of the Glen Grey Act are in force, and 
there is not the slightest doubt that that has done 
more for these districts in one year than has been 
accomplished in five years in other places. 

119. Mr. Jagger.] What is the bias there ? — The 
salaries are certain. 

120. In regard to the industrial training favoured 
by the Transkeian Councils, have they taken the 
mechanical or agricultural training ?— Both ; in 
fact they have instituted industrial institutions of 
their own, — run by themselves. 

121. Mr. Levey.'] Can you detect any improve- 
ment in the Transkei in agriculture ? — I would not 
like to express an opinion on agricultural matters. 

122. Do you think it advisable the teachers 
should pass an examination in agriculture ? — Not 
unless you see an outlet for their energies after 
they have got it. 

123. I presume in the case of a teacher who 
takes the place of an agricultural teacher, and not 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 19 

only teaches book learning, but is an agricultural v* : Thomas 
teacher, his salary would be more ? — You mean if ll.d.jvla^ 
he qualified as an agricultural instructor he should F -^ s - 
have an extra grant ? j u i y 2^1908. 

124. Yes ? — That is quite reasonable. 

125. I know individual teachers in a locality 
who have taken the agricultural training. Love- 
dale has taken as much interest as any one in 
agricultural education ? — Yes, but as regards such 
matters you have to reckon with the whole 
management of these institutions. Perhaps I 
should take the ordinary schools in the first 
instance. These are still managed by the mis- 
sionary. He has the superintending of them, and 
in many cases is the superintendent of a large 
number. How he manages to do it is a little 
difficult to see sometimes ; but we owe an immense 
debt to these men for what they have done for 
native education. But when you come to the 
Institutions you find that they are. as a rule, 
under bodies in England, who do not exercise any 
real control over them or supervision. The con- 
sequence is that you have this extraordinarv 
phenomenon. The inspector visits an institute 
and reports on it. The report goes to the r 
themselves — to the people who are repo^ 
instead of going to a body of manager c 

case in all white schools. 

126. Mr. Jagger " 
headquarters ?- 
have no co 
England t 

127. 
Engla 
A r 
um 
E 
t 



20 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas interested in having such a change, and the thing 
ll!d.?mjl|' fell to the ground. The difficulty becomes a more 
F.ks. serious thing when you have a church with a 
July 2, 1908. large number of institutions. For example, take 
the Wesley an community, which has as many 
as five of them. The Church in question I dealt 
with was the Free Church of Scotland. The Free 
Church of Scotland has three institutions — Love- 
dale, Emgwali and Blythswood. It would pay 
the Free Church of Scotland to put the manage- 
ment of these three institutions into the hands of 
some single board out in South Africa or at Home 
— preferably in South Africa — and work them in 
such a way as to be economical and at the same 
time efficient. These three institutions, so far as 
the training of teachers is concerned, all do the 
same work — pupil teachers of the first year, pupil 
teachers of the second year, pupil teachers of the 
third year. The pupil teachers of the third year 
from the whole three institutions would not form 
more than one decent class. They could therefore 
be taught by one person instead of by three. The 
difficulty that might be anticipated is the cliffi- 
Ity connected with boarding ; but, as a matter 
°t, as the pupils have to leave their homes at 
\ it does not much matter. • My point is 
"•Id be advantageous from the point of 
Mstration if a Church like the Free 
^van Church or the 
managing com- 
i,nd then have 
~» that body r 
with the 

other 

'om- 
ese 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 21 

130. Mr. T. Searle.] In January of this year there Dr. Thomas 
was a Convention of Natives, dealing with Educa- ll!d °iia!, m 
tion, held at Debe Nek, King Williamstown, at f.'r.s. 
which certain resolutions were passed ? — Yes. j„i y 2^1908. 

131. Have you those resolutions ? — Yes. 

132. One, I understand, was asking that instead 
of the schools being controlled entirely by the 
missionary as the superintendent they should be 
allowed to elect committees to work in conjunc- 
tion with the missionary ? — Yes. 

133. Do you think that would be an improve- 
ment ? — I do not think so generally, in the present 
state of the advancement of the native. I can 
easily imagine the time when the whole of the 
present system of management should disappear, 
namely, when instead of a clergyman being the 
manager of a large number of schools there should 
be a system approximating to that by which we 
manage white schools ; but I do not think at the 
present moment the natives are ripe for that. 

134. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Not ripe for a school- 
board ? —Yes. 

135. Mr. T. Searle.'] "While the missionary was 
originally the superintendent the missionary 
societies contributed all the funds. Now they 
contribute the funds through the people, and the 
missionary societies contribute very little, it 
is only fair that they should have a say in the 
management ? — Yes. There is a good deal to be 
said for that. But in many cases they do not 
contribute the funds. Taking the 11 Magistracies 
before referred to you can fairly say the people 
contribute £ for £ with the Government. But 
that is not the whole matter necessary for answer- 
ing the question. It might seem a quite reasonable 
thing from the point of view of abstract justice, 
but the question is Avhether in connection with 
each school you have a body of natives kiio wing- 
really sufficient about the management of a school 
to take up the required duty. 

136. Chairman.'] Would it be possible to have 
advisory committees ? I understand that proposal 



22 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M r, « T nT o s ^ ias ^ een nl ^de ? — If it were an advisory committee, 

ll!d\, mjC one would like to have it such a committee as 

f.r.s. would not get to loggerheads with the clergyman. 

137. Mr. de KocJ{.~] In that case the Govern- 
ment would nominate certain members ? — A very 
difficult thing to do. If you take an area where 
you have one or more of these little schools, the 
people in it whom the Government could nomi- 
nate would be exceedingly few. 

138. I mean the large institutions ? — That would 
be different. 

139. So would you recommend that the Govern- 
ment nominate half the members, seeing they 
make large contributions ? —I would not object, 
but at the outset I would be satisfied with a capa- 
ble body of their own choosing. 

140. Mr. T. Searle.] It is the universal wish of 
the natives? — I would not say it is the universal 
wish. It is the wish of the natives among whom 
a considerable body of agitators have got. 

141. Colonel Stanford.'] Have you any schools 
receiving grants from Government which do not 
belong to European church organizations ? — Would 
you include the American Methodists as not being 
European. 

142. Yes. Any others? — I cannot recall any 
others except those which have departed from 
the Free Church of Scotland. 

143. Under Mr. Mzimba, as Moderator of the 
Church at the head ? — Yes. 

144. How are those schools managed ? — I do not 
think well at present. They are better managed 
than they w^oulcl be under a semi-independent 
native clergyman. .The reason we continued to 
give grants to these schools is that we did not 
wish to put a check on education, and we made a 
temporary compromise, as being the only thing 
possible, namely, to pay the money through the 
Inspector of Locations. 

145. You recognised the advantage as far as 
possible of keeping them under your control ? — It 
was most desirable that locally they should be 
under European control. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 23 

146. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] The native is not Dr. Thomas 

« n , o -xr ■ ■• • l Muir, C.M.Gr., 

ripe for that? — Yes, in my experience, and ll.d., m.a., 
especially in matters of finance. F -^- s - W 

147. Colonel Stanford.'] In that case does not a j u i y 2, 1908. 
European consult with the leading man of the 
organization to which the schools are attached ? — 

I daresay he would wish to do that, and I would 
not object to Mr. Searle's suggestion of an ad- 
visory committee, if one were certain that it 
would work well in practice. 

148. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.-] Would it not be 
detrimental to native education if, after the church 
has done so much, you overruled it by a merely 
democratic system ? — I would welcome a demo- 
cratic system when the people were fit for it, but 
I do not think we can have it at present. I wish 
all our clergymen were so tactful as to prepare for 
the time when this can with good prospects be 
done. I already know some clergymen who 
before taking action say to the chief men in their 
congregations, " We propose to do so-and-so," and 
who in this way gather up their people's opinions. 
If they all did this, I think our system would be 
very satisfactory for a very considerable time to 
come. 

149. You think if the mission institutions 
abroad were represented b} 7 governing bodies here 
you would have a better hope of establishing such 
a policy, and impressing the missionaries with the 
necessity of making provision for such a change ? 
— Yes ; it would help towards the end I have in 
view . 

150. Mr. Murray.] There are. as a matter of fact, 
certain native and coloured school committees 
that work in conjunction with the clergymen? — 
Oh, yes, I know that ; but I am also aware of a 
number of committees, self elected, who often go 
in the direct teeth of the missionaries' recommen- 
dations ; and it then becomes a very difficult thing 
for the head office to administer. For example, 
we have an instance where they actually with- 
drew their children from school, in order to coerce 
the missionary superintendent. 



24 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 151. Mr. van Root/.] It has been held that 

ll!d., m.a.,"' during the earlier days of missionary work in this 

fjls. country it was conducive to creating a feeling of 

^ruiy2, 1908. animosity between coloured and white people? — 

Yes, T have heard of such opinions. 

152. What is your opinion on that question 
of the later periods of missionary work ? It was 
held that in the earlier times of the missionary 
work through these institutions in this country it 
created a feeling of animosity between the whites 
and the coloured — it was conducive to creating a 
bad feeling ? — That is what I have heard, but 
personally I have no evidence of it. 

153. It is, of course, maintained by a great por- 
tion of the white inhabitants of this country that 
these institutions created a lot of bad feeling 
between the two ? — Yes. At the same time I 
would like to say, in reference to such statements, 
that possibly the worldly interests of the white 
population were menaced by what the missionaries 
were doing, the missionaries acting all the while, 
in their judgment, purely for the betterment of 
the coloured population. Further, there is one 
thing that would be very unbecoming on the part 
of the Government or of anybody at all connected 
with legislation, namely, to undervalue the work 
which the missionaries have done in this country. 
The real fact is that the missionaries have done 
w^hat the Government did not do. The Govern- 
ment, at some stage or other in the history of the 
country, should have taken up this question of 
native education, and formed something like a 
definite policy regarding it, and pursued that 
policy. They let it alone. The missionaries 
developed it on their own lines, namely, on the 
lines that the children should be able to read and 
write a little, so that they might be good members 
of their church, and so forth ; and then, after the 
missionaries had done all this, the Government 
came in and was naturally saddled with what 
was really missionary education. It might not be 
the best type of education. If we were to begin at 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 25 

the commencement, probably, with the wisdom Dr. T ^ ™* 
we have now, we would not go on the lines the llj>., m.a.;' 
missionaries have gone on ; at the same time we r ^ s - 
should willingly give the missionaries credit for j u i y 2, 190s 
all they have done. 

154. I think we may take it for granted it is 
quite possible that if Government had understood 
their duty towards the natives as regards education 
in the early times, and not allowed missionaries to 
do it, it would have been better now ? — Yes. 

155. It would have been wise to have some 
suitable man to meet these delegates from mis- 
sionary societies in Europe, and come to some 
policy regarding the mission work amongst the 
natives, so that it should not be detrimental to 
the feeling between the white and coloured 
people ? — Yes. It is unquestionably also the case 
that sometimes you find one Church not working 
amicably with another Church. At the same time 
one really cannot say that there has been a great 
deal of that. If you take into consideration the 
large number of schools in the country, the num- 
ber of cases where a clergyman has got into 
trouble with another clergyman is very few, 
comparatively speaking. 

156. Colonel Crewe, .] There is a certain amount 
of competition ? — Yes. 

157. Mr. Levey.'] Are you in favour of Dr. 
Booker Washington's system in America ? — Yes. 
The question is whether it would be suitable here. 

158. There the basis is industry — agriculture ? — 
Exactly. 

159. Are you in favour of that ? — Most unques- 
tionably. I would not say I am in favour of 
introducing it here, but if it could be introduced 
it would be a good thing. 

160. Colonel Crewe.'] If jou remember before 
1905 there was the system of Government grants 
to native schools ? — Yes. You mean amendments ? 

161. Yes '? — Those amendments were practically 
011 the line of giving increased grants. 



26 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 162. As a matter of fact, those regulations 

ll!S. C mjl," should be the Government should pay £1 to 10s.. 

f.r.s. subscribed locally ? — Yes, those referred to mission 

July 2, 1908. Schools. 

163. What had existed before that regulation ? — 
A system practically of chaos. What Government 
gave before that was on no principle whatever. 
Government simply said the grant for a teacher 
should be so-and-so ; and if there were three 
teachers the grants for the three teachers were to 
be so-and-so. In many cases it was the Govern- 
ment that kept the schools going without the help 
of the local people ; and as you may remember, at 
a meeting — I think it was a Select Committee 
meeting — I gave evidence showing that if we 
made it £1 to 10s. it would not entail any more 
expenditure on the local people than they were 
then expending, only the expenditure would be 
distributed equally throughout them all ; and I 
think it has been a very great improvement in 
connection with mission school education. 

164. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Is that adhered to in 
all cases ? — I would not say in every case to a 
penny, but practically ; and there is a number 
that give more than the requirement. 

165. Colonel Crewe.] In 1905 the regulation was 
passed, and subsequently to that you passed for 
10s. locally to £1 granted by Government ? — Yes. 

166. The result has been, in some districts, the 
closing of schools ? — Yes, in one or two places. 

167. Because there was no local taxing body 
which could enable the collection of the 10s. grant, 
except in the Transkei, where the District Councils 
had the power to do so ? — Yes ; but not in the 
Transkei, because those regulations referred to the 
mission schools. 

168. In Herschel the contribution fell short, and 
they were compelled to close up some schools ? — 
Yes. 

169. Which was a considerable hardship to the 
natives ? — It would be in some cases. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 27 

170. The native was not prepared to pay volun- ^V^ ^ 
tarily, and there was no method of taxing him, lljd., m.a.,'' 
and the schools closed up ?— Yes. We know one FJ ^ S - 
or two in the South-Western Districts, too, where juiy 2, 1908. 
the local contribution was not sufficient to produce 

the 10s. 

171. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Coloured schools ?— 
Coloured schools. 

172. Colonel Crewe.'] Supposing you introduced 
agricultural education, it would be more expen- 
sive ? — Still more expensive. 

173. But you w^ould expect the native to con- 
tribute ? — Most assuredly. I think it would be 
one of the most unfortunate things possible for 
the native to think that he should get education 
on better terms than the white people. 

174. He is getting better terms now where he 
gets £1 contribution for 10s., where the European, 
in most cases, has 10s. against 10s. ? — Yes. When 
I suggested the 10s. I said this was merely prepar- 
ing the way for the time when he would contribute 
£1, or at any rate the same proportion as white 
people. 

175. If there are any changes should there not 
b3 some system of taxing the natives right through 
the country ? — The natives should pay for their 
education like other people, but we should be fair 
to those natives who are inside the Magistracies I 
haA r e mentioned, where they are eager for educa- 
tion and have contributed most willingly. In 
many cases they have given more than I have 
asked. Those are the Magistracies where the 
clauses of the Glen Grey Act are in operation. I 
have recommended over and over again that we 
should spread these clauses throughout all the 
Magistracies ; it would be the solution of an im- 
portant question. 

176. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] Do you think any 
system of compulsory contribution is sound if not 
accompanied by the system of compulsory educa- 
tion ? — Well, compulsory education not just at 
first, but with a view to compulsory education. I 



28 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

■j? r : T ^ ™* would introduce the taxation before the compul- 
ll!d., M.A.,"' sory education, on the understanding that com- 
f.r.s. pulsory education would follow when the people 
jpiy 2, i908.i weie fit for it otherwise. 

177. Under the existing School Board system the 
Government is contributing surely a great deal 
more than the £ for £ basis ? — Oh, yes. 

178. Chairman.] For whites you mean ? — Yes, no 
doubt. 

179. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] We must not exag- 
gerate the disparity between the white and 
coloured. I think you will find the position is 
not so very different ? — In some districts you 
might find it was a good deal the other way, since 
the passing of the School Board Act. 

180. Mr. T.Searle.] At this Convention I referred 
to just now I think they passed a resolution to ask 
to be allowed to go back to Dr. Dale's curriculum ? 
—Yes. 

181. Do you know what that means ?— I do not. 
I have given you to-day the two curricula, and 
you can see for yourselves what is the change in 
the curriculum. 

182. Mr. W. P. Schreiner ■..-] Are they on the same 
return, one contrasting with the other ? — Yes ; at 
least they were given in simultaneously. One of 
the inspectors sent the report of the Convention to 
me, and when I saw it I sent a letter to all of 
them to ask the meaning of the resolutions, and I 
have got the replies in my office. 

183. Chairman.'] What is the substance of the 
replies ? — Mainly my answer — that they did not 
quite understand what was meant. 

184. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] Would it perhaps 
mean in the native standards the amount of 
learning exacted now is higher than it was under 
the curriculum of Dr. Dale ? — It might be, but 
there is nothing to show that. As a matter of fact 
what is exacted is considerably higher. 

185. Standard IV. to-day is higher than the old 
Standard IV. ?— Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 29 

186. Do you consider Standard IY. is the kind ^*: T £°^? 
of learning what I might call primary education ? L l!d., m.a.,'' 
— We have considered it so for native primary F -^ s - 
education, but there is no reason whatever why juiy 2, 1908. 
any native who is capable of going higher than 
Standard IY. should not do so. 

187. As to what primary education should be 
regarded as, you think Standard IY ? — A very fair 
standard. 

188. You are satisfied with that as a fair 
standard for primary education ? — Yes. 

189. Whether for native or European? — I v/as 
just going to say that the School Board Act lays 
down Standard IY. as the compulsory standard for 
white pupils. 

190. Are you satisfied with that for the native 
and the coloured ? — Yes. 

191. Do you draw any distinction between the 
native and the coloured as to the standard you 
should regard as the standard of primary educa- 
tion ? — I would not. 

192. Mr. Murray.'] I think you said it was in 
1865 that the native language or English could 
be taught ? — Yes. 

193. Since then there has been, you say, practi- 
cally no change in the system. Has not some 
change occurred in that now ? You do not 
recognise the native language as a language for an 
examination for a standard ? — In the lower 
standards we do. The whole of the instruction in 
the lower standards can be in the native language, 
and not only that, but they are recommended to 
have it. 

194. Speaking from my recollection as an In- 
spector, for instance, I came to a certain school 
where nothing but Dutch was taught, and 
examined in that language and classified the 
children as having passed their standards in that 
language. On the other hand, if my recollection 
serves me, I have come to native schools where 
both English and Kafir were taught — I speak from 
memory — I could not classify the children as 



30 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas having passed Standard III. in Kafir ?— No ; 
ll.d., m.a, quite true. 

F -^ s - 195. I could make a remark that they passed 

July sum Standard III. in Kafir, but I was not at liberty to 
say that they had passed Standard III. ? — Yes, 
without any English. 

196. Originally, you say, the native language 
was recognized, as if under some older system 
that might have been done ? — In those days no 
natives in the C 3 schools got to Standard III. 
The schools in question were the lowest grade of 
C schools, namely, where there were about 20 
children, and where a teacher was employed who 
could only teach the native language. In the 
great majority of these schools there was then not 
a pupil above Standard II., and it is because the 
teachers are now a great deal better educated that 
we can ask for the English in Standard III. The 
real cause for the old state of affairs in reference 
to the teaching of Kafir wcs that the teachers 
were not capable of teaching anything else, and 
were not very capable of teaching even that. In 
the early standards we still advise that all teach- 
ing shall be in Kafir. 

197. Chairman.'] What do you mean by the 
early standards ? — Sub-standards I. and II. 

198. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Have }^ou a circular 
of that? — Yes. I will read you exactly what is 
said. 

199. Chairman.'] There was something in the 
Education Gazette the other day ? — Yes. Here is 
the notice that was sent out 4 or 5 years ago to 
draw attention to this. The practice therein re- 
commended is, first " To begin at the very earliest 
stage in the infants' school with oral lessons (in 
English), the children being taught the names of 
common objects shown to them and ultimately to 
form a little sentence about those objects, e.g., 
hand, finger, eye, one hand, two hands, three fin- 
gers. To this work half -an- hour should be devoted 
forenoon and afternoon." Practically the only 
instruction in English recommended is an hour a 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 31 



clay — half-an-hour in the morning and half -an- Dr. Thomas 
hour in the afternoon. The rest is in the Kafir ll^m^,'' 
language. Then, " In Standards I. and II. to con- F.E.S. 
tinue this with less familiar objects brought to the j u i y 2, 1908. 
school or shown on pictures, the lesson now taking 
the form of question and answer. In Standard 
III. to supplement the foregoing by requiring the 
answers to be written" their knowledge of English 
having increased by that time. 

200. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Is that a standing 
circular instruction ? — It was a recommendation to 
the native teachers for them to follow. 

201. Is there anything that has been taken in a 
circular form of instruction to inspectors to test on 
these lines, to see whether that is done or not ? — 
This is an instruction to the inspectors still ; but 
it is not compulsory. 

202. Do they report whether those recommenda- 
tions are or are not carried out ? — JN ot in every 
separate school, because of the option existing. 

203. Mr. Murray.'] Does that circular give 
any idea whether in Standards I. and II. we may 
actually classify children as having passed a stan- 
dard if they are unfit to pass it in English ? — Yes, 
that is understood. 

204. If any superintendent of a mission school 
said the Education Department treated the idea of 
making the Kafir language a medium of instruc- 
tion in the lower standards unsympathetically, 
you would say he was under a misapprehension ? 
— Decidedly, in view of that. Observe this circular 
is really the outcome of a meeting and conversa- 
tion with the inspectors five years ago. 

205. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] What was the date 
of that?— In 1903, I think. This is the second 
time of publication ; it was re-issued quite recently 
at the request of the inspectors. 

206. Chairman.] Four years ago? — Four years 
ago. 

207. Mr. Murray.^] You still consider when 
you come to Standard III. it would be unwise, 
taking the condition of the country into account, 



32 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas and English being the language of the country, to 
lld.m a *' allow them the option of going on to Standard III. 

f.r.s. W ith Kafir ?— Alone ? 
July 2, 1908. 208. Not necessarily alone, hut allowing them 
to pass their standard in that language ? — I think 
it w^ould be unwise when they get to Standard III. 



Monday, 6th July, 1908. 



PKESENT : 
Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Dr. Thomas Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S. , 
ll"d. C S; further examined. 

•pi -p a 

— '-' 209. Chairman.'] Have you anything more you 

July 6, 1908. ^gh ^ say a "b nt agricultural training ? — In con- 
tinuation of what I said last day, I have now to 
hand in the Inspector's report on the districts of 
Butterworth, Tsomo and Nqamakwe, in order to 
show, by a special instance, the difficulties con- 
nected with the introduction of agricultural 
education. This what Inspector McLaren said, " I 
herewith give lists of schools in the Eutterworth 
and Tsomo districts showing the amount of land 
which is now being granted at each school site and 
the nature of the ground. In no case is the land 
fenced except at the central Mission Stations, where 
missionaries reside, and at Mbulu Hill, Tsomo, 
where about half an acre is surrounded by a 
broken down fence. The very circumstances that 
make a place suitable as a church or school site v 
namely, dryness, good drainage and prominence, 
make it unsuitable f or gardening. The schools are 
almost invariably built on high and dry ridges in 
the commonage, while the cultivated lands are in 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 33 

the valleys and slopes. The country is very Dr. Thomas 
uneven — in many cases a rugged plateau. Besides ll.d. C m.£;' 
the morgen of ground which is attached as play- ^is. 
ground to each school there is the teacher's land, a j u iy~i908. 
plot of four or five morgen in extent, situated at 
some considerable distance — often at a great dis- 
tance in a valley or bottom." He takes every 
school in his district, tells the extent of the land, 
the nature of the ground, and remarks upon it. 
You will observe how often the words " hard, dry 
ridge," "hard, dry slope," and so forth, occur. 
Then he says, " I have also gone over the schools 
in the Nqamakwe district, and find that not more 
than six or eight are built on sites where gardening 
would be possible, viz., Blythswood, where there is 
plenty of land," etc. He continues, "It might be 
possible to get the Government to set aside plots 
of land for gardening purposes in connection with 
the schools, but these would necessarily be at some 
considerable distance ; in no case would the ground 
be fenced, and probably in no case would water 
for irrigation be available, any water suitable for 
this purpose being already monopolised." ( Witness 
handed in document). Now that is an instance of 
the kind of investigation which was made four 
years ago, and it was so discouraging that we did 
not proceed with the investigation. I published it 
in the Education Gazette in order that it might 
attract a little attention on the part of people who 
were interested in the subject. Then the next 
scheme was a scheme proposed by Inspector 
Morrison, who is an inspector of industrial work 
in the Transkei. He had views on the subject 
after I had given this up as practically impracti- 
cable ; and it is just possible that his suggestions 
might contain something for the Committee to 
consider. ' 

210. When was this ?— Much later, in 1906. 

211. He is not in the Transkei only? — The 
Eastern Province and Transkei. He has made a 
speciality of everything connected with industrial 
education, and his views are not confined to agri- 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. D 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



Dr. Thomas culture. He has a number of ideas, which he 
^l.d.?K',' classifies. I think that the following will give 
f.r.s. y 0U 2110 st readily an abstract of what he says. 
July 6, 1908. 1 sent the paper to Inspector McLaren, in order that 
he might express his views on it, and he broke 
it up into HYe heads — Building in stone, 
brickmaking and building, rustic woodwork, gar- 
dening and ordinary woodwork. His opinions 
were really not very favourable to the Morrison 
scheme, although he had sympathy with them, and 
thought a good deal could be done in reference to 
rustic woodwork. I thereupon asked Mr. Morrison 
to devise a scheme for rustic woodwork, the idea 
being that each boy would make out of wattle, 
willow, or other suitable rods, at least six articles 
of ornament or use, with the related drawing in its 
simplest form. One other man who has taken a 
great deal of interest in the subject is Inspector 
Tooke, also belonging to the Transkei. He says 
in his letter : " There is no question as to the 
desirability of some sort of manual training for 
native boys, and at schools attached to head mission 
stations where no system of manual training at 
present exists a beginning might be made in the 
direction he indicates. Mr. Morrison hardly 
realizes, however, the conditions prevailing at 
present at the great majority of the native schools. 
In the most part the building has been erected 
upon a site agreed upon by the headman and 
the missionary, and, as a rule, the headman 
selects the land as being of no value for pur- 
poses of cultivation. The site as granted by 
Government extends to one or two morgen, but as 
no Magistracy in this circuit has yet been surveyed 
no boundaries have as yet been marked out. Until 
the boundaries have been fixed it is not likely that 
fencing will be undertaken, and without fencing 
tree-planting is impracticable "—tree-planting is 
one of the subjects Mr. Morrison had spoken of. 
" The laying out of paths might be undertaken to 
some extent, but in the absence of boundaries this 
would be done a good deal at haphazard. Later on, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 35 

when the different districts have been surveyed, Dr. Thomas 
the desirability of fencing in the school sites might be lSd., kk.," 
urged upon the managers, and then Mr. Morrison's F -^ s - 
suggestions might be carried out with good results." j u iy 6, 1908. 
I have here the papers in connection with Mr. 
Morrison's scheme of industrial education, Inspec- 
tor McLaren's remarks upon it, and Inspector 
Tooke's remarks upon it ; these are at the disposal 
of the Committee. The next point was as to 
statistics regarding population. This was in an- 
swer to Mr. Schreiner. The native population of 
the Transkeian Territories is 893.824. Proportion 
of children, 5 to 14 years of age, equals at least 25 
per cent, (see Census Eeport, 1904, p. Ixxx), which 
gives 223,456 children of school-going age. At C. 
and C.l schools in the Territories there are 43,245. 
In other words there -is, as I stated quite 
correctly in my evidence the last day, only one 
child in five in school. ( Witness handed in docu- 
ment.) 

212. Mr. Jagger.] That of course includes Pondo- 
land?— Yes. 

213. And right down to the coast ? — Yes. 

214. Colonel Stanford.'] Does this apply to the 
Council districts ? — Yes, it includes those. 

215. Mr. Levey. .] And right down to Pondoland 
and the coast ? — Yes. 

216. Mr. Jagger.] Could you possibly give it in 
the different Territories — so much Transkei, and 
so on ?— We could do that. 

217. Colonel Stanford.'] It would be interesting 
to compare between the districts under the Council 
system and the districts which are not under the 
Council system ? — The whole of the material is 
available. 

218. Chairman.] These population statistics come 
out of the Native Affairs Annual Eeport, I sup- 
pose ? — Those are really taken from the Census, 
because we had to go to that to get the children 
who were not in school. 

219. That has considerably increased, I suppose, 
since then ? — I suppose so. I hand in the return. 



36 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T)r. Thomas r Witness handed in document.) It tlien gives the 
llj)., m.a.;' classification of pupils in standards in 1892 and 
f.b.s. 1907. This is to show the number of children who 
July 6, 1908. get beyond Standard III., in view of the request 
that children should be taught in Kafir alone up 
to Standard III, Well, in 1892 there were 685 
children in Standard III. Nov/ there are 3,550 — just 
about five times as many. In Standard IV. there 
were 157, and there are now 2,282. In Standard V. 
there were only 32 children, and there are now 
1,090. In Standard VI. there were then only 5 
children, and there are now 509. It is seen, how- 
ever, that although the numbers have immensely 
increased they still form a very small percentage 
of the total children. For example, there were 
only 5*5 per cent, of the children who reached 
Standard IV. ; only half of that amount — 2*6 per 
cent. — reached Standard V. ; and only half of that 
amount — 1*2 per cent. — reached Standard VI. Then 
it is only fair to recall the fact that those standards 
are considerably more difficult than the standards 
were in 1892, so that you get incidentally an 
evidence of the progress of education in the Trans- 
kei. I have left out of this the pupil teachers, 
because they were included in a return which I 
gave you last day, and because, of coarse, they are 
all above Standard VI. ; that is to say, they begin 
with Standard VI. There are 482 in pupil teachers' 
course 1, 221 in pupil teachers' course 2, and 105 in 
pupil teachers' course 3 — in all, 808 above Standard 
VI. 

220. Mr. Jagger.] I thought there were about 
900 pupil teachers altogether ? — Yes ; they total 
about that for the current year. 

221. Chairman.] Perhaps you could make out a 
return for the different Territories, as is suggested ? 
— Yes. How must the return be arranged ? 

222. Colonel Stanford.] A return arranged ac- 
cording to districts ? — Magistracies ? 

223. Yes ; and distinguishing those districts in 
which the Council system is in operation, and I 
think it would be interesting at the same time also 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 37 

to compare the contributions from those districts Dl > Thomas 
towards the maintenance of the schools ? — That llS.?^^ 
would be a little more difficult to do, but it is un- FJ ^ S - 
questionably the case that the contribution is much j u i y 6, 1908. 
greater, which is the reason, as I said before, why 
they get good teachers — why the men migrate to 
the districts where the Council have the control. 
You want the number of children of school-going 
age ? 

224. And the proportion of attendance ?— Yes. 

225. Chairman.'] While we are on this, you took 
those figures as to population from the Census ? 
— Yes. We have no other means of doing it. 

226. You could not take the proportion of the 
Census and apply it to the present population ? — 
Yes ; that is, we could take the population as 
given by Census, the population known now ap- 
proximately, and then use a proportion ? 

227. Yes ?— That could be done. 

228. Colonel Stanford.] There is one more point 
I would like to make — to 4 group the districts under 
the headings of the Territories to which they 
belong, so that you have Pondoland, East Griqua- 
land, Tembuland, and so on. Then we shall have 
information showing the tribes which have been 
longest under our control, and those which have 
been only a short time. That would not mean a 
cross division of the Council's schools ; we should 
simply in the case of those districts put an asterisk 
to indicate the Council's schools ? — Yes. I might 
be able to do that. The next matter was in refer- 
ence to the growth of w T hite schools. This came 
up in connection with the question of inspectors 
knowing Kafir and so forth. The facts are these 
— that in 1892 there were very few white schools 
in the Transkei, but now we have practically 
every grade of undenominational school, includ- 
ing one high school. There were in 1892, 19 
schools altogether for white children. In the 4th 
quarter of 1907 there were 90. The enrolment has 
gone up in the like proportion, and the attendance 
has improved greatly in the 15 years' period. 



38 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas [ Witness handed in document.'] The next point 

^.d.^a ,'' that I was asked about was the Debe Nek Besolu- 

f.r.s.' " tions. That was by Mr. Searle, I think. Well, the 

July 6, 1908. Debe Nek Eesolutions were .five in number. The 

first concerned the syllabus, the second concerned 

appointment of native School Boards. 

229. Mr. Jagger.~\ Advocating them, I suppose ? 
— Yes, advocating them. The third was that 
teachers should promote their pupils without 
waiting for the inspector ; the fourth that instruc- 
tion in the vernacular should take a prominent 
place in the lower standards ; the fifth a resolu- 
tion generally favouring higher education. I 
stated to the Committee that I had got the 
opinions of all the inspectors in reference to 
that, and I have them here. The most in- 
teresting ones to me are, naturally, those of 
the inspectors who know Kafir, who have been 
brought up in the Colony, and who know the 
whole history of native education. Here is one, 
Inspector Bennie. I may say at the outset that 
they all attribute the Debe Nek resolutions to the 
Christian Express — that is the centre from which 
they emanated ; and thereby hangs a tale. 

230. That is the Lovedale paper ? — Yes. In- 
spector Bennie says: "In any school in this 
Circuit, a part of the English reading-book is 
always accepted instead of the whole, if Kafir is 
properly taught, yet hardly any schools avail 
themselves of this provision. Teachers usually 
complain that the parents will not provide the 
children with " Kafir Beaders." I may say the 
question of books in Kafir is a serious difficulty. 
There is an old series of Kafir readers, but In- 
spector McLaren has often suggested — and he has 
often been asked indeed — to provide a set of Kafir 
readers. 

231. Is that grammar of Crawshaw's any good 
now ? — I do not think it is in use at all. Inspector 
McLaren produced a Kafir grammar with the help 
of the Department some two years ago — a very 
good book. Crawshaw was an Inspector who 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 39 

knew comparatively little Kafir, although he was Dr. Thomas 
able to write a Kafir grammar. Inspector Bennie ^iTd^K',' 
says : " There can be no objection to the desire F ^ s - 
that children should be able to read and write j u i y 6, iSSs, 
their own language, and I have always encouraged 
the teaching of Kafir, though I have recognised 
that teachers and managers have the option of 
taking or neglecting it in schools. As a result, 
however, or experience of several systems, I do 
not favour that of taking nothing but Kafir 
for the first few years of school life, unless 
the curriculum for natives is to be completely re- 
organised differently from that for whites, and 
this change cannot, in my opinion, be made now. 
The natives are extremely jealous of differences 
made between them and whites just now, and T 
know that many would strongly resent such a 
change. Moreover, in the Colony proper, where 
the coloured and native children attend the same 
schools, matters would be rather complicated, 
since the coloured do not wish to learn Kafir." 
That has reference from Grahamstown eastwards. 

232. Chairman.'] Native and coloured children 
attencLthe same school ? — Yes. 

233. Is not that becoming less and less ? — Yes, 
because they always tend to quarrel. We have 
some districts where we have been forced to give 
a separate grant for the schools because the 
coloured would not go in with the Kafirs. Mr. 
Bennie continues : " A native is a much more use- 
ful citizen— even as a servant — if he knowsEnglish, 
and he should begin the acquisition of this as soon 
as possible, if he is to learn it effectively in school. 
I therefore recommend children being put to 
English reading, and conversation of an extremely 
simple kind in sub-standard A., and devoting all 
their time to one language until they enter the 
class for Standard I. They are able then to learn 
Kafir reading with the greatest ease, since it is 
spelt phonetically, and an hour and a-half or two 
hours a week are sufficient in the standards for 
quite efficient instruction in Kafir. ..." 



40 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas 234. Mr. Jagger.] That is entirely contrary to 

LL.t>. C ic£' this Convention's resolutions ? — Yes, because the 

rr.s. ' Convention at Lovedale, as I say, is worked on by 

July V, 1908. the people who have had experience of Central 

Africa — Nyassaland — and not of this Colony. 

235. Mr, Murray.'] Mr. Bennie gave the same 
evidence at Lovedale, according to the telegraphic 
report ? — Yes. 

236. Mr. Jagger.~] Which do you favour in your 
experience? — I would be 'guided immensely by 
these inspectors, rather than by my own experi- 
ence. 

237. Mr. Levey.] Mr. Bennie is a most experi- 
enced inspector? — Yes. He was born in the 
Colony and brought up at Lovedale. He goes on, 
" I am aware that theorists will have much to say 
about beginning with the known, and taking the 
mother-tongue first, but if this is done it will mean 
that the children will learn practically no English 
in their term of school-life ; they learn little 
enough already in the country schools." I may 
be allowed to say here that I do not think that 
outside people really appreciate the difficulty one 
has in getting inspectors for these districts. At 
one time the only thing that was wanted for the 
Transkei was a man who knew Kafir. Since the 
white people have gone into the Transkei it is 
quite different. You have, for example, in the 
districts of Elliot and Maclear a large number of 
Dutch farmers, and these men, notably in the dis- 
trict of Elliot, are naturally the men who clamour 
most for Dutch ; and the consequence is you must 
have a man who knows Dutch in that district, and 
he must know Kafir — a very rare combination in 
the case of an educated man. You have in the 
King William's Town district a desire for German, 
and the Germans complain if their children are 
not examined in German. You must therefore 
have a man knowing German and Kafir — another 
difficult combination. We have two inspectors of 
the name of Bein who do know German and Kafir. 
I do not take the case of the next man because he 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 41 

does not know very much Kafir ; I do not give his p*. Thomas 
opinion. Here is another from the North-east : ll-d^bla^ 
" The whole time I have been in the Transkeian F - R * s - 
Territories I have never met with a single j u i y 6, 1908. 
native who has complained of the present 
elementary school course. If a course 

were drafted for them different from that 
for Europeans the natives themselves would be 
the first to oppose it. During the recent political 
campaign native education had been freely dis- 
cussed by Europeans, of whom a great maiTy have 
expressed their dissatisfaction. The cry is less 
book learning and •more manual training. Many 
people have also said that all grants on behalf of 
native education should be strictly on the £ for £ 
principle. With regard to this last statement I 
certainly think that the natives should pay more 
than they do at present. I know that the present 
Principal of Lovedale and the Moravian Mission- 
aries would like to see all instruction given in 
Kafir in the lower classes and English not intro- 
duced until about the Fourth Standard. This 
w^ould not only meet with great opposition, but 
would to an extent be unworkable. For instance 
it would be impossible to teach arithmetic in the 
native language. I find the present course is in 
every respect suitable." There is a long report on 
the same lines from Inspector McLaren, who, as I 
mentioned to you before, is one of the most ex- 
perienced inspectors, and who sa}~s in reference to 
the first resolution at Debe ^Nek : " Several of the 
speakers at the Convention were ex- teachers, and 
several acting teachers, most of them of the older 
generation." He says, " Men like Jabavu forget 
all that they have learned since they left school 
and speak as if they had all the intelligence and 
knowledge then that they possess now, forgetting 
the tremendous education that life gives to men 
in prominent positions." Then I was asked in 
reference to the appointment of school committees 
— committees of parents — whether it was not the 
case that the Transkeian General Council had re- 



42 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas commended that, and I find that it was recom- 

^D. C iK;' niended by that Council — a very definite resolution, 

F.R.S. ' but meant especially for their schools — the schools 

July V, 1908. that were supported by the Transkeian General 

Council grants. 

238. Chairman.'] Is that an advisory committee ? 
—The nature of it is detailed thus. They want 
that a superintendent of a mission school, when 
he is going to appoint a teacher or proceed on any 
particular course, shall communicate to this com- 
mittee the name of the teacher, so that they — the 
committee of parents— may have an opportunity 
of objecting to it, and so forth— a rather peculiar 
procedure — the main object of it being that the 
missionaries alone shall not decide, but that they 
shall be taken into account. In that connection I 
should like to point out that the missionaries are 
really the great promoters of schools in the Trans- 
kei. There is scarcely a missionary who has not 
two or three schools for which he receives no 
grants. He has them on probation, and when 
they have got up to a certain stage he asks that 
they shall receive grants, and Government reports 
upon them. 

239. Colonel Stanford.'] In some cases the Council 
gives a £10 grant ? — Yes, in some cases, before they 
get grants from Government. That is quite true 
In the Transkei the missionaries have been organ- 
izing bodies for education ; and when I was 
pressing the Government to go on with the School- 
board Act I gave instances of how the progress in 
the foundation of schools by means of this machi- 
nery was greater in the Transkei than what it was 
in the Colony proper for whiles. 

240. Ch airman.] You mean before the School- 
board Act was passed ? — Yes. It was one of the 
arguments I used in connection with the School- 
board Act. I think these were all the matters that 
you asked me io bring up. 

241. Had you anything further that you wished 
to state ? — No ; I am quite ready for any questions. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 43 

242. I wish to have your opinion with regard to pr. Thomas 
the success of the present system of education on ll.d.^a v 
the individual native. Do you notice any dif- ^in- 
ference between the natives and the Europeans ? j u iy V, 1908. 
— You mean do I notice after they have left 
school ? 

243. Yes ? — I am really not in a good position to 
answer a question like that. It would need to he 
asked of some person mixing a great deal amongst 
the native population. 

244. You could not express an opinion as to 
whether the present system shows signs of being 
markedly successful or markedly unsuccessful in 
its effect on the natives ? — No. I have heard of 
book-education deteriorating the native, but I 
have very little belief in that. I must say. 

245. That is also said about white children some- 
times ? — Yes, exactly. 

246. You could not express an opinion as to the 
theory which is often advanced about the inability 
of the native to go beyond a certain stage in 
mental development ? — Yes. I think I have had 
evidence of that. 'With boys who become pupil 
teachers it is noticeable that when they reach a 
certain stage of development their mental growth 
rather comes to a stop. 

247. Does that apply to girls also, or not so 
much ? — I have not the same experience in 
reference to girls, but if you compare a white boy 
and a coloured boy from the ages of 12 onwards 
you will find that a white boy goes on growing 
mentally, whereas a coloured boy seems for a 
while almost to come to a stop. I believe there 
are physiological reasons given for it. 

248. You believe that is really the essential thing 
in the physiology of the native ? — Yes. There are 
exceptions. 

249. Do you think the evidence on this point 
has advanced so far that we can say it is estab- 
lished ? — If you take the case of writers on Kafirs, 
you will find it considered an established thing. I 
only notice it in connection with examinations- 



44 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas that there is not that rapid growth over 12 years of 

"llS^a!',' age that you have in the early stages, and more 

f.r.s. especially in reference to anything requiring 

July 6, 1908. initiative — that a native has very considerable 

imitative powers, and those parts of his education 

that call upon the imitative powers make progress, 

whereas those requiring real fresh thought or 

initiative do not. 

250. You see no reasons for thinking that the 
system of education is in any way responsible for 
that, or for thinking that some improved system 
might remedy that defect ? — I do not think so ; I 
think it is inherent. 

251. Colonel Stanford.'] Have you any means of 
testing how far those physiological reasons apply 
to children of native parents who themselves are 
educated and living a different life from that of 
the heathen native ? — No ; we have not the means 
of doing that. We could not separate the children 
of heathen parents who go to school for the first 
time from the children of parents who have been 
some time under instruction. 

252. I understand you to say up to the present 
the system has been pretty well the same for the 
native as the European children ? — A close approx- 
imation. 

253. Do you think that should be continued ? — 
I think now it should be continued. I do not think 
it is desirable to make the change. The whole 
evidence of these inspectors tends in that way. 

254. What kind of change could be thought of 
at all in a practicable way. do you consider ? — One 
change, as I have indicated before, is towards a 
greater amount of manual instruction ; but I have 
done so always with the intimation that manual 
instruction is expensive. 

255. Have you had opportunities of ascertaining 
what the view of the native parents is in respect of 
the education of children — parents who pay by 
fees and otherwise for the education ? — Not from 
the parents themselves, but from the parents as 
communicated through the school inspectors. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 45 

256. What do you take that view to be ? — That Di > Thomas 
they are satisfied with the present system of ll.d., m.a,'' 
education as a system. F ^ s - 

257. That is, that they prefer to continue by j u iy 6, 1908. 
approximation on the lines of the European 
children ? — Yes, more and more. I may say when 

I came to the Colony, and when I was thinking 
of improving the standards, I thought at the time 
of having different standards for the natives from 
those for the white people, and even then I was 
advised by people who had had a lot of experience 
in the Colony that the natives would resent that — 
notably in reference to the pupil- teacher course. 
They thought they should have exactly the same 
facilities for advancement — as they considered it — 
as the white population. 

258. Have you any information regarding the 
views of the parents of these children in respect of 
agricultural training ? — No. not the parents. We 
know that the children themselves are not lovers 
of it. 

259. But the parent is himself, as a rule, an 
agriculturist, and also a pastoralist ? — Quite true. 

260. Then you have not had put before you any 
expression of view from them to the effect that 
they themselves teach their children to plough and 
keep stock, and that they send them to school to 
learn reading, writing and arithmetic ? — I have 
heard that, but I am not in a position to say how 
general that is. 

261. But, if it were practicable, you yourself, I 
take it, would advocate a certain amount of teach- 
ing in respect of agriculture ? — Yes. 

262. And also manual labour ? — I would. 

263. Your policy has been to encourage indus- 
trial education wherever practicable ? — Wherever 
practicable, but, as I have indicated, I cannot take 
credit for doing- anything in the matter, because of 
the inherent difficulties in the question. 

261. Mr. Levey.'] You mentioned reports of 
McLaren and several others regarding space for 
agricultural work ? — Yes. 



46 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr : T £°^ s 265. Do not you think a central station could be 
LL.r>., m.'a.,' made where five or six schools could attend once a 
f.e.s. week, and receive instruction from an agricultural 
July 6, 1908. teacher. I may mention at Gala a small farm was 
started of about 100 acres, and the different schools 
were to come every Saturday, and I fancy there was 
correspondence with the Education Department, and 
they could have instruction in gardening where it 
was suitable soil, and tree-planting and agriculture 
could be taught the children. Do not you think 
— in the Transkei particularly — you could always 
find a place where a central station might be 
selected and the different schools could spend at 
least one day a week in learning agriculture and 
tree-planting as part of their education ? — I do not 
feel sure that the bringing of the children from 
the various schools to a centre in that way would 
be a very wise thing, unless done under careful 
supervision. 

266. Of course under a practical elementary 
teacher in agriculture ? — I was not referring to the 
teacher, but to the children themselves. It is not 
a very desirable thing to remove bodies of children 
a considerable distance to a centre for one day. 

267. Mr. T. Searle.~] Going back to the opinion 
you expressed about the mental growth seeming 
to stop at the age of 12 years or thereabouts, do 
not you think it is to a very large extent a ques- 
tion of their home life and environment ? What 
I mean is this. Up to that age their education 
would consist very largely of all matters with 
which they have come into contact in their home 
life ?— Yes. 

268. When they begin to get beyond a certain 
stage they go away from questions that they come 
into daily contact with, and come, as it were, into 
a foreign world, so that they are there, as it were, 
with nothing that they can lay hold of. It is all a 
new field to them, and therefore they are at a dis- 
advantage to European children, to whom that is 
not a foreign field, owing to their contact with it 
m their life ? — I think that is quite possibly a 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 47 

partial explanation ; and then it must be remem- ^ T ^ ^ 
bered, too, that the African who has settled in the llj>., m.a.1' 
United States of America does not show that to F ^ s - 
any appreciable extent. Whether it is the differ- j u i y % 1908. 
ence in the surroundings in America during these 
generations or not I do not know, but there are 
plenty of American negroes who progress in mental 
development steadily as a European does. 

269. Do you hold there is an inherent lack of 
capacity beyond that? — Not an inherent lack of 
capacity ; I would not say that, because one cannot 
ver}^ well judge of that. When I said there was 
something inherent, I meant it was more of a 
physiological reason than anything else. 

270. Chairman^ Do you mean unalterable ? — It 
would be alterable under different circumstances 
— different surroundings. 

271. Mr. T. Searle.~\ But then would it not be 
incorrect to say it is physiological ? — I do think it 
is connected with physiology. 

272. Mr. Murray.'] I did not quite understand 
you to say that they stopped in mental develop- 
ment, but that they were slower ? — Yes, that is the 
point : they do not stop ; they simply do not pro- 
gress at the same rate. 

273. The evidence you have given as regards 
America would rather militate against the state- 
ment that it is dependent upon physiology, would 
it not ? — Not quite ; because I do not say if they 
were brought under totally different circumstances 
their bodily habits and so forth would not be 
affected to the same extent. 

274. So that if we continued our present line of 
education, especially in parts of the country where 
the natives do not continue to live in their kraals 
it is quite possible that in a century or two that 
race might not be so backward ? — That is exactly 
what I wanted to suggest by bringing forward the 
case of America. 

275. Colonel Crewe.'] Are the native parents of the 
children sufficiently far advanced at present to 
decide intelligently upon the merits of the teachers 



48 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas i n the schools ? — I do not think so, speaking 

ll.d., m.a., generally. I am quite certain that tor some con- 

f.ii.s. siderable time yet the selection of teachers should 

July 6, 1908. be in the hands of educated people, and people 

who know about the management of teachers 

when they are appointed. 

276. And you do not think the native has 
advanced to that condition that he can be free 
from the missionary influence 7- — I do not think 
so generally. Things -go well where the missionary 
has the knowledge of the natives and the tact to 
use an advisory committee in his own way, by 
bringing the committee together and telling them 
what he proposed to do, and advising them as to 
the wiser course. I would be glad to see that. 

277. As a matter of fact, he has that power now ? 
— Some do not use it, unfortunately. 

278. Are you aware in some mission stations 
there is manual instruction to a certain extent 
now ? For instance, some work on mission farms 
and get instruction in ploughing, etc. ? — Yes, 
notably in some of the Homan Catholic institu- 
tions. It is remarkable what a good course some 
of the Eoman Catholic institutions have. 

279. You think that should be extended ? — Yes, 
only it is becoming more and more difficult to 
extend it by reason of the attitude of the native 
boy himself towards it. 

280. If he goes to school he wants book-learning 
and nothing else ?— T Yes. He has an idea that 
school is a place where he has books to deal with. 

281. He shows an intelligent interest in his own 
education, apart from this agricultural or manual 
instruction ? — Yes. 

282. Mr. van Rooy.\ If to a considerable extent 
there appears to be a lack of mental growth with 
the native, would it be advisable, as long as that 
exists, to trouble much about the higher education 
of the native ? — That raises a very big question. 
As I have already said, I would not keep any 
form of education from the native, provided he 
showed a desire for it, and was able to pay for it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 49 

There is no form of education that I would Dr. Thomas 
prevent him from going on with. At the same ll.d. C m.a!*' 
time, I would consider it a waste of money to f.r.s. 
begin with higher education before you had laid j u i y V, 1908. 
the foundation of elementary and secondary 
education. You do not want to put on the highest 
storey of the house before you have laid the 
foundation. 

283. We have heard from your evidence that 
there seems to be a strong disinclination for 
coloured and native children to attend the same 
schools ? — Yes. 

284. And that the Department was obliged in 
several instances to erect separate schools for the 
coloured children apart from the natives in some 
localities ? — Not to erect separate schools, but to 
give grants for separate schools. 

285. Has that led to considerable increase of 
expenditure ? — Necessarily so, because where one 
school would have sufficed, with one set of grants, 
two schools have been brought into existence, 
with two sets of grants. 

286. And wherever this trouble arose the Depart- 
ment met it ? — No ; we have tried to put as many 
obstacles in the way as we could. 

287. As regards the rainfall in those places like 
Butterw^orth, where they complained of the lack 
of water for agricultural work, I suppose that is 
not a question you could give evidence on — the 
matter of dry cultivation ; because it is more and 
more believed, even with our scanty rainfall in the 
Midlands, that we could do more dry cultivation 
with deeper tillage and so on ? — Quite so. 

288. I was wondering whether the lack of rain- 
water would be a great drawback if only properly 
treated with ? — That was only one of the obstacles 
referred to by Inspector McLaren. He also referred 
to rocky ridges, where there was not sufficient 
depth of soil. The advantage of his report is that 
he specifies certain places, so that anyone in- 
terested in the subject of agricultural education 
could test the thing for himself. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. E 



50 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

■Dr. Thomas 289. Colonel Stanford.'] Have you any mixed 

S, c 'm,a.'' native and coloured schools now ? — Oh, yes, but 

f.e.s. no t in the Transkeian Territories. They are more 

July 6, 1908. common on the Frontier. For instance, one of 

the places I had in my mind when I was speaking 

of this was Fort Beaufort. Another place is 

Stockenstrom. 

290. In the selection of sites should not the 
people be guided a great deal by choosing a high 
and healthy situation ?— I think that is what has 
taken place in the past. Inspector McLaren says 
the high ridges have been chosen on that account, 

291. And the sites are chosen in consultation 
between the missionary and the headman as a 
rule ? — Yes. Of recent years when a new school 
has been spoken of to the Department, the Depart- 
ment has tried to influence the people in the 
selection of a suitable site, but as a rule it is the 
local people who have got the thing in their 
hands. 

292. Mr. Levey.] With regard to the 223,000 
children of school-going age, these children are 
being taught and are all having an elementary 
education ?— Not the 228,000. That is the number 
of children of school-going age, of whom you have 
about a fifth at school. 

293. If these children have no manual training, 
and we continue the present system of giving book- 
learning, what will they naturally do when they 
grow up ? — Unless their parents supply the want, 
I fear that the result cannot be anything but 
unsatisfactory. 

294. Are you aware that some of the parents at 
the present time complain of our educational 
system ? In fact I have had parents complain to 
me that our educational system is bad — they 
spend their money at these institutions and teach 
their children, and their children return to their 
homes eventually, and their parents have to 
support them. Have you had any such cases ? — 
Oh, yes. One of the inspectors whose reports I 
had before me just now says that the danger is 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 51 

that boys who go to a native institution of a pre- ^ u r ir T ^°^ s 
tentious kind, where they are brought into contact ll.d., m.'a.,' 
with comforts and so forth which they are not F ^- s - 
familiar with at home, may become indisposed to j u i y 6, 1908. 
do anything. 

295. Are you aAvare with the chiefs and others 
from the North who send their sons down their 
object in certain cases is not to obtain learning, 
but more with a political purpose ; that is to say, 
to have some one who can read newspapers to 
them and tell them about European civilization ? 
— That I could not say. I do not know that of my 
own knowledge. 

296. Mr. T. Searle.] This Committee has to deal 
with both native and coloured education. Would 
the opinions you have been giving apply equally 
to the coloured children ? — No, I do not think so, 
more especially in the Western parts of the Colony. 
You find the circumstances are quite different, I 
could, if you liked, give you corresponding figures 
for mission schools in the Colony to what I have 
given you for aborigines' schools. 

297. These people claim that they ought to have 
some say in the management of their schools, 
because circumstances are now different from what 
they were originally. The 'missionary societies 
used to' contribute the chief portion of the funds 
where now, in certain places, they do not con- 
tribute anything ? — Yes. 

298. They claim they ought to have some say in 
the management of these schools where they provide 
the funds. Do not you think there is some reason 
in that ? — Yes : but, as I indicated last day, the ques- 
tion of the money is not the only thing to be taken 
into account ; it is merely one of several elements. 
The question therefore, it seems to me, should be 
looked at in a practical way, thus — what system 
of compromise could you have whereby the mis- 
sionary, while retaining his position, should take 
into consideration the wishes of the parents ? Then 
I would w T ish to remark that the circumstances 
are so different in different parts of the Colony 



52 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas that anything like a general scheme would not be 
ll.d., m.a." workable. There are certain districts, where, as 
f.r.s. y 0U sa y ? the parents are . sufficiently intelligent. 
July 6, 1908. There are parents, for example, who have been 
educated themselves at schools, and in that case 
you might succeed in getting one or two men who 
would have some knowledge of school manage- 
ment, but there are other districts where there are 
absolutely none, and where the change could not 
be introduced at the present time. Our business, 
it seems to me, is for the present to keep an eye on 
the fact that the time is coming, by reason of pro- 
gress, when some control should be given to the 
parents, that we ought to provide for that time, 
and that we should ask the missionaries to be as 
considerate for the present as they possibly can of 
the wishes of shrewd and fairly educated parents. 

299. Do not you think, although we may think 
that it might not work satisfactorily, perhaps after 
all the only way of teaching these people eventu- 
ally is by making them self-reliant and letting 
them learn from their own failures ? — Quite a 
desirable thing with both white and coloured 
people, only you must not lay too much on their 
shoulders all at once ; you must bring it gradually 
upon them. 

300. So that where you had a school where the 
people were contributing the funds, and they held 
very strongly that they should have some say in 
the management, do not you think if we allowed 
them in a case of that kind to have some say — 
even thought it might result in some setback — 
thereby they would learn to recognize their limita- 
tions, and in that way you would get them on a 
sounder foundation ? — Yes. At the same time, I 
should not like to risk too much. If I might just 
give a suggestion of my own, it is that when }^ou 
introduce committees of that kind they ought to 
cover as big an area as possible. You should not, 
for example, have a committee of parents in the 
Transkei attached to a given school, because the 
area from which you have to draw the intelligent 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 53 

manager is too small. If, for example, the Trans- ^ r ir T ^^ s 
kei General Council appointed certain representa- ll.d., k.A.',' 
fives for a school committee for a considerable F -^- s - 
area, it would be much more likely to work well j u iy e, 1908. 
than a school committee chosen from a small 
village area. 

301. I had more in mind the native mission 
schools in the Colony ? — Yes ; there the circum- 
stances are different. 

302. Mr. Murray.'] In connection with the native 
children objecting to work when they get home, 
is it not a fact that when education commences in 
any country which is chiefly pastoral, whether 
white or coloured children, you find the same 
difficulty ? — Exactly the same difficulty. When 
the Native Affairs Commission was sitting I gave 
expression to that opinion. 

303. So that in both cases what the children do 
at home will rest, to some extent, with the 
parents ? — Yes. You had for a certain period in 
England, for example, after the passing of the 
Schoolboard Act, constant complaint that people 
could not get maid -servants so readily, and when 
they did get them that they insisted upon spending 
a good deal of their time reading novels, and so 
forth. 

304. Take, for instance, institutions where they 
have a large number of children together. Do you 
see any difficulty, at the present time, say in allow- 
ing inspectors to see any manual work outside — 
such work as is at present not classified by you ? 
Would you see any objection to inspectors going 
round and seeing what is done, and reporting upon 
it ? — None whatever ; indeed we should be de- 
lighted to encourage that. 

305. Do not you think it would be an encourage- 
ment both to the pupils and to the teachers? — 
Quite, ^ and although the Transkeian General 
Council when it started its own institutions was a 
little inclined to think itself superior and beyond 
the need of advice, we simply held aloof a little 
while, until things did not go as well as they might 



54 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas have done, and then the inspector was asked to 
ll!d.°£!,'' put in an appearance, and we allowed him to go ; 
f.'r.s. ' as a matter of fact, at the last General Council 
July 6^ 1908. meeting a committee which the General Council 
had appointed reported on their schools, and practi- 
cally said, " We would have been better if we had 
followed the Education Department's scheme 
earlier in the day," and they are now, I am glad to 
say — although these schools are not under the 
Department — working quite in harmony with 
Inspector Morrison. 

306. While you hold that the education for 
whites and natives should be the same at these 
schools, suppose it was stated — as some of the boys 
say — " We do not want to do two hours work in 
the afternoon; it takes us away from our book- 
work," is it at all possible for an inspector to make 
a distinction ? We will presume, he says, " I have 
examined this class, and their knowledge of 
English history is bad, but this class does two hours 
a day — or an hour a day — at some manual labour, 
either tree-planting or dam-making " ; could that be 
taken into consideration, or would that manual 
labour really be looked upon as so much exercise, 
which ought not to detract from their book-learn- 
ing ? — Your point is, would a boy be placed in a 
position of disability in reference to his standard 
work, by reason of the fact that he was giving up 
a considerable portion of his day to manual 
labour ? 

307. Bather would a class ; you would have to 
take them as a class, doing so much work ? — We 
would not on any account do that ; and, as a 
matter of fact, we have at the present time the 
whole of these apprenticed boys and girls devoting 
a certain amount of time to their books — generally 
at night. In other words, they work all day at 
wagon-making, &c, and the girls at their domestic 
work, and then they have instruction in the 
evening. It means, in effect, simply that some of 
them will take two years to pass a standard 
instead of one, and we are quite satisfied that that 
should be the case. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 00 

308. I am not thinking of its having such an Dr. Thomas 
effect, but more of its having the effect of their not ll.d., m.a.,*' 
learning so much, possibly, of subjects which are F ^ s - 
not considered failing subjects in the standards? — jui y <>, 1908. 
Yes. 

309. Then in connection with the difficulty raised 
by Mr. Searle, could it possibly be met by the 
appointment of Government nominees and the 
election of a committee in certain districts as an 
experiment ? — We could quite well do that if the 
direction were taken which I indicated a little ago, 
namely, beginning with the Transkei General 
Council schools — where, because of the system in 
force, the people are more advanced than the 
people in other districts. 

310. You referred to the duplication of the 
schools owing to the parents of native and coloured 
children not always wishing them to go to school 
together. Is there much reduplication of schools 
owing to the fact that schools of several denomi- 
nations overlap within the same area ? — Is this in 
reference to coloured children and Kafir children, 
or to coloured education generally ? 

311. Just coloured education generally ? — Yes ; 
you have a certain amount of overlapping. 

312. Chairman.] Does that apply to native edu- 
cation ? — I think so. We have a number of cases 
that happen every year of a clergyman wanting to 
establish a school in a place where, in the opinion 
of the Department, there is no need for a school. 
Then they say, " But that school is managed not 
by our Church, but by another Church." 

313. What happens then? — The outcome is a 
good deal of hot water for the Department for a 
time ; but, as a matter of fact, it is all in the day's 
work, and in the end we usually manage to pull 
through. 

314. There are two divisions to the question. 
Anyway, can you suggest to us, as a Committee, 
any recommendation which may serve in the 
future to keep you out of the hot water — that is, 
any practical recommendation as regards the estab- 



56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

w*' ^Mft lishment of mission schools ? — I am not really 

iS!5)./m.a-,' prepared to say that general advice could be given. 

f.r.s. w e have had, you. see, more or less, an unwritten 

July e, 1908. regulation that a school shall not be erected within 

a certain distance of an existing school, and we 

have tried to carry that out to the best of our 

ability. 

315. That is one way of minimizing the difficulty ? 
— Another way is by the Churches ageeing that they 
shall mark out for themselves certain areas, and 
all the people within a certain area shall be con- 
sidered as a sphere of action for a particular Church. 
It is when they begin to encroach upon one 
another's spheres that the trouble arises. 

316. Then I gather there is not sufficient over- 
lapping to make it worth while taking up the 
question of whether a saving could be effected by 
the combination of schools ? — I scarcely think so. 
As I said last day, if you take into account the 
total number of schools we have got to deal with, 
the number where difficulty has arisen in this con- 
nection is really comparatively small, and though 
it causes trouble, we have always been able, up to 
the present, to deal with it. There is one Depart- 
ment of the Government which can give us a good 
deal of help, and that is the Agricultural Depart- 
ment, by not giving sites for new schools where 
they are not needed. 

317. Is that under the Agricultural Department ? 
—Yes. 

318. Colonel Crewe.] Surely the Agricultural 
Department does consult you. They consult the 
Colonial Secretary, do not they ? — Yes, now. 

319. And you are consulted as to whether the 
site should be granted or not ? — Yes, but only in 
comparatively recent times. 

320. That is the case ?— Yes. 

321. Chairman.] Is that so ? In all cases where 
grants are made by the Agricultural Department 
you are consulted ? — Yes. We have asked that 
we should know of every case, because if you 
once give a site for church and school — as is the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 57 

usual expression of the Agricultural Department — d*. T£ amas 
then they say, " Well, we have a claim upon you ; L l.i>., m.a.", 
why was this given for a church and school if we r -^ s - 
are not to have a grant afterwards ? " jui y e, 1908. 

322. Mr. Murray '.] As regards this question of 
agricultural training, which is a matter of very 
large expense, supposing that cannot be carried 
out in the native mission schools. If wiiere 
teachers are trained at the institutions it is made 
part of their work, do not you think that possibly 
when a teacher has learnt the dignity and use of 
manual labour the boys at his school may pick it 
up from the atmosphere w^hich he creates, if one 
cannot actually give manual training ? Do you 
think the atmosphere would have any effect ? — I 
do think so. I do think at the present moment, 
for instance, even with the principals of native 
institutions, if they were really seriously in earnest 
about bringing agricultural education before the 
teachers, it would have a good effect. At the same 
time I do not wish for a moment to minimize the 
difficulties of these men, because of the views 
w^hich the native boy has already got into his head 
in reference to agricultural education. It would 
require a strong man — a man of very decided 
opinions — who would impress himself upon the 
boys. I ought to have mentioned that there is no 
male teacher in the Transkeian Territories who 
does not while under training get actual manual 
work. Only he does not get agricultural work. 
All of them have got to pass an examination in the 
use of tools for woodwork. 

323. If the Government of this country were 
only to contribute to a native college on condition 
that regular manual training in agriculture was 
given to each student, you think that would have 
a good effect upon the lower schools ? — Yes, if the 
Government, after having said that, would keep a 
very stiff backbone and not go away from it. 

324. Mr. van Rooy.~\ What would be about the 
total number of native children in the schools in 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



Dr. Thomas the Transkei ? You gave 223,000 ? — Children, but 
ll.d.?m.a.',' not at school. About a fifth part of those would 

f.r.s. fo e a t school. 
July 6^ i9os. 325. There are a great many native children 
besides ? — A great many in such districts as King 
' William's Town, East London, Yictoria East, and. 
so on. 

326. What do you think would the total number 
of children amount to attending school ? — I could 
not give it now, but it could be got quite definitely. 
There are 100,000 native aborigine children and 
mission school children. 

327. In your Keport I find very few native 
children get beyond Standard II. ? — It is quite 
noticeable the small number who get beyond Stan- 
dard II. 

328. And when they leave school, having only 
got that far, have they any knowledge at all of 
English ? — They have a very little knowledge of 
English. 

329. They have practically only learnt to read a 
little of their own language, I suppose ? — To read 
a little in their own language, and also a little in 
the English language in the great majority of 
cases, but it is exceedingly little. 

330. The education they have got could hardly 
be of any use, especially where they get back to 
their old methods of living ? — Yes, but at the same 
time that applies to a good many European 
children as well. 

331. Chairman.] I suppose most of those go for- 
ward more than the natives afterwards ? — Oh, yes, 
I think so. 

332. Mr. van Boo y,~\ You have never had any 
application from native schools, I suppose, to have 
Dutch as the medium of education ? — Not in 
aborigines schools. I cannot recall any at the 
present moment, although I should think the 
places where that would be likely to occur would 
be in such a district as Elliot. You would also have 
in those places where coloured children and Kafir 
children are educated together such schools as I was 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 59 

speaking of to Colonel Stanford, because I know Dr. Thomas-- 
of two or three schools which I have seen myself ll.d, m.a.,' 
where the children were being taught through the F -^ s - 
medium of Dutch, but where English was also j u i y 6, i908.. 
taught. 

333. Of course with their suggestion to have a 
school committee for the- natives in the selection 
of teachers that would make administration more 
costly, because these men would require some 
compensation, especially for attending meetings ? — 
I did not contemplate that. I should think we 
would expect them to do it for nothing. 

334. Colonel Stanford.'] You are aware, of course, 
that the Transkeian General Council is constituted 
by members taken from the various District 
Councils ? — Yes. 

335. Could you not utilize these District Coun- 
cils in connection with the work of your schools ? 
— Yes. The same suggestion would apply to one 
of the District Councils as I made in reference to 
the Transkeian General Council. 

336. That is to say, in the districts where we 
have the district council system working ? — Yes. 

337. On the question of lads who go to school 
and then return with wrong ideas about labour, I 
suppose it is clear, at any rate, that they change their 
habits; the}* learn to wear clothing, and so on, and it 
really means more wants ? — Yes, and they learn 
something that is not reallv in books at all, and 
that is habits of cleanliness, and obedience, and so 
forth. Those are valuable things altogether apart 
from book education. 

338. And to gratify these wants they must get 
money, and therefore in the end they must work ? 
— Yes. I should think in the end the hrw of sup- 
ply and demand would apply to them as to any 
one else. 

339. As regards the overlapping of schools, your 
radius, from my recollection, was three miles ? — 
Yes. 

340. Is that effective ?■ — As a rule. There are 
one or two complicated cases, where, for example, 



60 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas a Church has had a school in a district and for 

^lj^m/a?,' some reason or other has languished, and the 

% fjLb. school has got so small that the grant has to be 

July e^ 1908. withdrawn. Another Church then seizes the 

opportunity and comes in, whereupon there is a 

new vigour on the part of the Church that is being 

ousted, and you have two bodies at war at once. 

341. What have you to say regarding Bechuana- 
land ? — I do not think Bechuanaland is making 
the progress it ought to make. It is only of recent 
years Bechuanaland has been brought under the 
Education Department, and when it was taken 
over we found the schools had been practically all 
managed by the London Missionary Society. The 
condition of these schools was really lamentable in 
many cases, the difficulty being caused by the 
want of proper teachers. When it was so repre- 
sented to the London Missionary Society they said 
" Very well ; we are willing to try to fall into line 
with the Transkei in the matter," and that is the 
explanation of the starting of this school at Tiger- 
kloof. Tigerkloof will ultimately, if it should be 
successful, be an institution on the lines of those 
institutions that w^e have in the Transkei, but it 
w 7 ill take a very considerable time to work up, 
because the supply of material from the other 
schools — from the lower grade schools is very poor. 

342. Mr de Kock.~\ Are you aware that a large 
number of native chiefs in that part of the country 
send their boys to America for training — to be 
educated ? — From Bechuanaland ? 

343. Yes ? — I would not say a large number ; so 
far as I know the number is really not large. 

344. I am talking now of the children of the 
chiefs. A fair number go to America ? — Yes, and 
some go to England. 

345. You have not seen what the effect has been 
on those boys coming back from America ? — I think 
in some cases w r e have. We even see the effect of 
fully grown men going to England and America, 
namely, that they come back with absurd notions 
about their own importance. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 61 

346. Which has a very bad effect upon the Dr. Thomas 
tribe ? — Which may have a very bad effect upon lEd.^a^' 
themselves, and is due to a cause over which we F -^ s - 
can have no control, namely, the treatment which j u i y e, 1908. 
they receive in England and America. 

347. And therefore we should discourage it in 
every possible way — sending them out of the 
country ? — I would not encourage them. I would 
rather make our own institutions suffice. At the 
same time you must bear in mind that we say to 
tv kite boys now, " If you wish to broaden your 
views of education and of the world there is no 
reason why, after getting your education here, you 
should not go abroad and see a little more." I do 
not think you can put an embargo on any one, 
white or coloured, going to England and America. 

348. But you should not encourage it ? — No ; I 
do not think we have done. 

349. Mr. Murray.'] I understand some of the 
natives have obtained degrees in America. Have 
you any means of judging of the value of those 
degrees ? — I think so. At one time I put myself 
to considerable trouble to find the names of all 
who had gone to America, and I got a list which, 
if not complete, was very nearly complete for Cape 
Colony, and I imagine that there could not be 
very many from the Orange Elver Colony or from 
the Transvaal or from Natal, where native educa- 
tion is not so much fostered as it is in the Cape 
Colony. Well, some of these people got degrees — 
a few out of between 90 and 100 altogether — which 
is going back for a period of ten years. The less 
said about the degrees the better. I know for 
example, of one case where a man who, to our 
knowledge, knew nothing but Standard Y. had 
gone to America, and came back within a very 
short period with two university degrees. Well, 
we cannot hope to compete with America in that 
respect, nor is it desirable that we should. I 
think it is desirable to bear a fact like that in 
in mind — that you will not be able to restrain this 
tendency altogether. So long as people can get 



62 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas degrees in that easy way, and so long as they are 
] llj>.?m^a.",' very fond of degrees, you will have a certain 

F.ks. number of people leaving the country. 
July 67i9C8. 350. Chairman.] That applies also to certain 
white people ? — Certain white people also. 

351. Mr. de Kock.~] Does that apply to natives? 
— Those were natives. 

352. Chairman.] You spoke about the cost, and 
you said you were in favour of not preventing 
natives going on to secondary education provided 
they paid for it. Do you think they ought to pay 
more for elementary education than they do ? — In 
some districts I think they ought to. I would 
carefully exclude the districts referred to as being 
in the Transkeian General Council, because there 
in some cases they really contribute more money 
than the Government contributes. 

353. Do you think it desirable to wait for the 
council system to come into the different districts, 
or put on a tax before ? — My idea is we ought to 
foster the introduction of the Transkeian General 
Council system. 

354. Then you would not be in favour of devis- 
ing some alternative scheme ? — Not at present. 
We have found out that this is a solution, through 
having it partially in use. The natural thing 
would be to spread it, and if this Committee could 
do anything to induce the Government Depart- 
ments that are concerned with these districts to 
adopt this system it would be a great help to 
education. 

355. With regard to the medium of instruction, 
do all the inspectors in the Transkei speak Kafir ? 
— No, for the reason that I have already indicated. 
— the difficulty of getting men who know all the 
languages necessary. We have six inspectors in 
the Transkei, and then we have three inspectors 
bordering on the Transkei that have a great deal 
to do with aborigines' schools. Well of these nine, 
there are three that have only a partial knowledge 
of Kafir — but Bennie and McLaren, and Dr. Eein 
and his brother and Mr. Tooke speak Kafir. The 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 63 

difficulty of getting such men is increasing every Dr. Thomas 
year, because of the difficulty of getting certain ll.ix, m.a.',' 
other qualifications that are as necessary, namely, F -^- s - 
some other European [language — usually Dutch j u i y 6, 1908. 
or German — and experience and knowledge of 
education. 

356. With regard to the teachers, I suppose they 
can all of them speak Kafir ? — Yes, that is the 
point to be remembered when one hears of want of 
instruction in Kafir. In a Kafir school the teacher 
is a Kafir, and has a knowledge of Kafir. Unfor- 
tunately some of them do not want to teach Kafir. 

357. In the curriculum the text books and the 
syllabus are entirely identical for Europeans and 
Kafirs ? — Yes, only that there are certain subjects 
which are not exacted from the native schools — for 
instance, drawing. The ordinary English subjects 
are the same in both. 

358. You feel it is desirable not only that the 
same subjects should be taught, but the same 
subjects should be taught in the same way ? — Not 
exactly in the same way, because we give them 
the liberty of the use of Kafir in the earlier stand- 
ards. 

359. I am not speaking of the medium ; I am 
speaking of the subjects. I understand you are not 
in favour of thinking out a system of teaching the 
subjects particularly suited to the natives ? — Not 
at this stage. At one tiVne it might have been 
desirable. 9 

360. You say there is great difficulty with regard 
to text books in Kafir ? — Yes, difficulty represented 
to me by the inspectors who know Kafir. 

361. Is it difficult to get text books written ? — 
Well, the Government, you understand, does not 
usually do that ; that is left to outside effort. I 
know that Inspector McLaren has been approached 
more than once. 

362. By publishers ? — Yes, and asked to produce 
a set of Kafir readers, but 1 think you will readily 
understand that it places a Government servant in 
a very awkward position when he has an interest 



64 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas i n a set of readers that are competing with another 

TVTnir P TVT P 

ll.d., m.a.,' set produced by some outside firm which is 
f.r.s. deriving an income from them ; I have therefore 

July 6^ 1908. discouraged such undertakings, speaking quite 
generally, not in reference to Kafir alone, but in 
reference to all subjects. In the case of Inspector 
McLaren, however, it was pointed out that there was 
absolutely no Kafir grammar in existence, and 
therefore if he produced a Kafir grammar there 
could not be any complaint. The Department 
consequently assisted him a little to carry that 
out, and about, I should think, two years ago the 
book was published by Longmans of London. 

363. Last year's Select Committee, I think, re- 
commended that the Government should offer a 
prize for a text book on agriculture in Kafir. 
Would it be of any advantage? — It might be 
advisable, but I do not think there are many able 
to do it. I do not think it is necessary now as far 
as agriculture for whites is concerned, because 
there is one on the way. 

364. I see it sometimes stated that the moral 
and religious education given in some of these 
schools is very insufficient. I understand that is 
the business of the missionaries rather than the 
Department ? — The Department has always care- 
fully abstained from interfering in regard to that. 

365. And is bound to do so ? — And is bound to 
do 'so. I must say we would like— the inspectors 
and myself — that there should be the opening of 
school in some similar way to what occurs in 
white schools — and I believe that takes place as a 
rule, but a number of Kafir teachers are not what 
one would wish them to be in these matters. 

366. With regard to the teaching of hygiene, can 
anything be done to get that sort of teaching 
which you speak about in your annual report ? — 
Into native schools ? 

367. Yes ? — It is very difficult at the present 
moment. 

368. It would be only possible to get it done by 
the teachers ? — Yes, only possible by the teachers.- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 65 

369. You think that would be difficult ?— I D^Thom^- 
think there has been a very great improvement in ll.d. ? iil.'J 
the native schools in the matter of hygiene. r ^- s 

370. Do you think, with regard to personal Jnl y 6 > 1908 - 
hygiene, the influence of the schools is already 
appreciable ? — Oh, yes, there is no question about it. 

371. At present 1 understand that the Depart- 
ment gives no grants for secondary education — for 
any education beyond Standard VI. — except to the 
training schools ? — Except to training schools. 

372. What is the reason of that ? — It has never 
been considered as part of the native system of 
education ; it is not provided for by Act of 
Parliament. 

373. Is the training school course a desirable 
course for all the children who naturally go on to 
secondary education ? — I should not think so. but 
the total number going on to secondary education 
is exceedingly few. I should not be at all opposed 
to a well considered scheme for giving grants for 
secondary education. Of course it would have to 
be borne in mind that the total number of students 
who would reach that would be exceedingly few, 
and therefore there could not be more than one 
school. 

374. The so-called native college is, I suppose, 
designed to meet that need ?— Yes. 

375. I gather that you feel, in view of the small 
exodus to America, and so on, that it is desirable 
the State should have a certain control over the 
native college and endeavour to prevent people 
geing abroad ? — Yes. I have always been opposed 
to the title of Native College, because it does seem 
to me so absurd to talk about college education for 
natives when our elementary education is in the 
condition in which it is. What I have advised I 
have already indicated in my Eeport, namely, that 
a central school be founded, to begin at the point 
at which the elementary schools leave off; and if 
its work should develop in time into real college 
work by all means give it the name. This question 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. F 



66 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas f native education is a big one, and I think it is 
^l.d.^a!,'' a little unfortunate it has got mixed up with a 

f.r.s. good many other questions. 
July ^ 1908. 376. You think the system of individual inspec- 
tion is essential in view of the position of the Kafir 
teacher ? — Exactly; it is absolutely essential. 

377. I suppose you would be glad if it were not 
essential, because it would mean the Kafir teacher 
would be more advanced ? — Exactly. When one 
comes to speak of individual versus class inspec- 
tion it is simply a question of the stage of advance- 
ment of the teacher morally and intellectually. 
We had a case quite recently of an inspector who 
made a series of visits in his district in the lower 
part of the Transkei, and found that through 
negligence a good many of the schools were not in 
operation at all. 

37$. Class inspection would cover that defect? — 
It means there should be more inspection. We 
ought to have more visiting of schools, so as to 
supplement the work of the missionary superin- 
tendents. Some of the missionary superintendents 
have over 20 schools to supervise, and they simply 
cannot do it and attend to their other work. 

379. Do you feel that you have an adequate 
control over the native schools in the Transkei 
and Bechuanaland here in Cape Town, or do you 
feel that there is anything in the suggestion which 
one sometimes sees put forward, namely, a 
certain scheme of devolution ? — I think we have as 
good a control over the native schools as over the 
white schools that are at a distance. The only 
thing that is desirable is that Government, whqn 
it can afford the cost, should relieve the present 
inspectors of a good deal of their areas. For 
two years we have had inspectors constantly 
complaining of the difficulty of overtaking their 
work. 

380. Eeally we want more inspectors ? — Yes. 
Take the North-west district of the Colony, for 
example. We have two inspectors there who are 
notoriously overworked, and very hard work it is, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 67 

and in some cases underpaid. I have the case of *>r. T ^°^ s 
one man before me just now who instead of keep- ll.d., M.A.," 
ing two horses has been forced to keep four, and F ^- s - 
two or three of these have died through over- July 6, 1908. 
pressure — a loss that has to come out of his own 
pocket. 

381. Mr. van Rooy~\ I understand you to say that 
there seems to be a tendency with some of these 
native teachers not to teach Kafir ? — Yes. 

382. Does the effect of education amongst them 
seem to take away their love for their own language ? 
— No ; I would not say that, but they have a desire 
to do anything that they consider of the nature of 
higher work rather than lower work. For instance, 
a sign of this in many native teachers is the devoting 
of so much time to Standard IV. and the neglect of 
the small children. That is because they are proud 
of the few children they have in Standard IT. 

383. Mr. de Kock.] And as a rule when they teach 
in any other language it is always the English 
language ? — Yes. 

384. They never teach Dutch at all ? — No, unless 
as I was indicating to Mr. van Rooy, in certain 
districts, like the Elliot district, there is a certain 
amount of Dutch taught — that is to say in districts 
where a Dutch population has moved up from the 
Colony. 

385. But the big mass of the natives who receive 
education to-day are taught English? — English 
along with Kafir. 

386o Do not you think that is going to have a 
very grave effect upon our Dutch- speaking people 
in the years to come, when you have a big mass of 
people knowing only the English and not Dutch ? — 
It would rectify itself, because as a Dutch popula- 
tion got amongst those people then English would 
cease to be the language. 



68 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Tuesday, 7th July, 1908. 



PEESENT : 

Mr. Feemantle (Chairman). 



Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray, 
Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Kv. Newton j\£ r , Neivton Oqilvie Thompson, examined. 

Ogilvie '' M 

Thompson. 387 chairman.] You are the Eesident Magistrate 
July 7, 1908. at Kentani ? — Yes. 

388. How long have you been a magistrate in 
the Transkeian Territories ? — Since 1884 as magis- 
trate — 24 }^ears. Of course I have been oyer 30 
years in the Service in the Territories : I went in 
1878. 

389. How long have you been Magistrate at 
Kentani? — I was Magistrate there from 189(5 to 
1904, and I w r as away two years and came back in 
1906. I was there for eight years, and then I have 
been there nearly two years since my return. 

390. Kentani is one of the Council districts, is it 
not ? — Yes. 

391. The council system was introduced in your 
time ? — Yes, it was introduced in my time. There 
was no council there when I went there. 

392. Has the council improved the position of 
the natives generally, and of education in par- 
ticular ? — Very largely indeed. 

393. Could you make some statement in that 
way of your experience of the working of the 
council system in that respect ? — The council 
system there has done a great deal towards 
opening up the district. There were two roads in 
the district complete when I went there first, and 
now we have good roads in every district. It has 
opened up the district and enabled the natives to 
get the grain out of some of the finest valleys in 
the district. Where previously they carried it on 
their heads they can now use sledges and wagons. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 69 

In regard to education, owing to this council Mr. Newtofa 
money being available for the support of the Thomson. 
schools, we have a large number of schools now in Jul — 190g 
regard to which I doubt very much if they would 
have been able to come into existence but for the 
council s} 7 stem. That is just taking education 
and roads. Then I attribute very great import- 
ance to the degree of self-government that the 
council system gives the people. 

394. You mean its having an educational erf ect 
on the people ? — Yes. 

395. The system of education there is carried on 
with subventions from the District Councils, is it 
not ? — Yes. 

396. What is the agency for starting new schools ? 
— The jieople generally go to their missionary if 
they want a school, and consult him, and then 
they put up a building, which they pay for them- 
selves by subscriptions. Then when the school is 
in working order they apply to the Council in the 
first instance, if they have not Government aid 
yet, for a temporary grant of £10 per annum to a 
native school, which the Council gives ; and then 
as soon as they can get a Government grant then 
they come in-, of course, and get the Council grant, 
which is in the case of principal teachers three- 
fourths of the amount allowed by the Government. 

397. Do you think that is a satisfactory system 
for starting new schools, or do you think any 
further system is required ? — No ; I do not. I 
think it has worked very well in the Territories. 
The people have to build a school, and therefore it 
throws them upon their own resources, which I 
think is a good thing, and they do not get any 
grant until everything is in working order, and it 
is recommended by the Government inspector. 

398. Does the Council give no grants until 
recommended by the inspector ? — No. 

399. It is suggested that in some parts the native 
does not contribute sufficiently to the education of 
his children. Would you say that that applied to 



July 7, 1908. 



70 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton the Council districts or not ? — No, I should not say 
Thompson, so ; I should say he contributes very well in the 
Council districts. 

400. Would you care to say anything about the 
non-Council districts ? — Of course in the iron- 
Council districts I do not suppose he does, because 
there the fees are really voluntary, and very often 
they have a lot of trouble in collecting these 
amounts. 

401. With regard to the prospects, do you think 
that this system is likely to spread and to carry on 
the work of raising the natives ? — The council 
system ? 

402. Yes ?• — I do ; yes, I believe it will do so 
eventually, providing that it is properly handled ; 
that is to say, providing you have a man at the 
head of the council system who will guide it in 
the right lines and in the right direction. I have 
always been very great on that point. 

403. In fact, you take an optimistic view of the 
future if the Council system is properlv guided ?— 
Yes. 

404. And you do not think that any radical re- 
form of the system is required. You think we 
have a system which is really suitable to the re- 
quirements of the people ? — Yes, I do. That is, as 
far as financial matters are concerned. Of course, 
I take it you are not referring now to the educa- 
tional system ? 

405. No ? — No ; I think the present system of 
creating schools in the Native Territories is one 
which has stood the test of time, and it should not 
be lightly interfered with. 

406. Have you anything further to say with re- 
gard to this question of machinery before we pass 
to the question of the actual teaching? — It has 
been suggested, of course, that there should be 
committees formed in connection with these 
schools, and I have supported that in some in- 
stances ; but there is one great difficulty, and that 
is that the schools at present must be under the 
charge of the missionary. 



July 7. 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. t 1 

407. What do you mean by saying they must be ? Mr. Newton 
— Unless the Government are prepared to take the Thomson. 
expense, he does all the work connected with the 
schools. He does all the work for which otherwise 
you would have to have a sort of secretary, and 
that saves the Education Department expense, and 
thus the taking over of the whole of the respon- 
sibility in connection with that work we could not 
very well do unless the missionaries were agree- 
able. 

408. Do you think that the time has arrived for 
parents' committees as advisory committees for 
the schools ? — There again you have the same 
difficulty. A lot of these people — most of them, 
in fact — are ignorant people, and the missionary 
says at once: "If you are to have an advisory 
committee of that sort I will have nothing to do 
with the schools," or probably he will say that " I 
am not going to be under a committee of that 
kind." 

409. Do you think that is a bona fide difficulty ? 
— I think it is a difficulty, and a very great 
difficulty. 

410. You think that is a question which is not a 
burning question at the present time ? — Well, it is 
a burning question with some of the people. Some 
of the people want a voice in the appointment or 
dismissal of the teachers, and they want a com- 
mittee ; but then there is this difficulty of the 
missionary, and I think the missionary should bo 
considered in the matter, considering the work 
that he has done in the past. 

411. Is it not a fact that in some places the mis- 
sionaries do co-operate with the people in a 
friendly way ? — They certainly do co-operate with 
them now always, as far as they can. Very few 
missionaries take any action without at least 
informing the leading people of the location. 

412. And the whole question is one that should 
be put on a systematic basis ? — Yes, that is the 
whole question. 

413. You see difficulties ?— I see difficulties 
unless we can work through the missionary and 



72 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton get the missionary to agree to some system. Then 
Thompson. I think we would be all right. 

— _ 414. In the districts yon are acquainted with, 
x would you he able to get satisfactory men to serve 
on the committees ?— Only in some locations. In 
others we would have difficulties. 

415. In those others it would be hardly advis- 
able ? — It would not be advisable. 

416. With regard to the actual teaching and the 
effects of education, we have had evidence on the 
question wiiether the native mind is specially 
limited and unable to progress beyond a certain 
age. Have you any opinion on that question ? — 
Well, I had the idea myself that the native mind 
was not limited, and with proper teaching won Id 
be able to go on, and on making inquiries they 
lead to the confirming of those conclusions. I 
have often heard the question discussed, but I 
have never heard it conclusively proved to my 
own mind. 

417. That is just your opinion ? — I still think so. 

418. And it is an opinion which is not only a 
theoretical opinion, but which squares with your 
experience of the natives ? — Yes. as far as my 
experience goes. 

419. But is it not a fact that with many of the 
educated natives there is a want of initiative ? — 
Yes, there is, but then of course one cannot expect 
that it should be otherwise. If one looks back and 
counts time, as you would do in the history of a 
people, I do not think we can expect any very 
great results at this day. 

420. You ascribe that defect to the fact that the 
native starts a long way behind ? — Yes. 

421. Do you think the environment of native 
home life has a considerable effect in that way? — 
Oh, yes, I do think so. Now, for instance, I think 
the rising generation and the next generation will 
lend itself more to education than the past genera- 
tion, because of the parents in their home life, and 
the conversation and everything, and the educa- 
tion that they are getting will help matters. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 



422. With regard to the actual system of teach- Mr. Newton 



Osrilvie 



July 7. 1908. 



Ing, do you think that this somewhat desponding Thompson, 
result is in any way due to the defects of the 
system of teaching ? — I do not think it is due to 
the same extent as some people think, but I do 
think that the system of teaching is responsible 
for the native acquiring a parrot -like knowledge 
where they teach them from the early standards 
purely in English. I think they should be taught 
up to the 3rd or 4th standard — the 3rd, say — in 
Kafir, and then after that in the ordinary way, so 
that the children might be able to understand 
better what they were learning. 

423. We have evidence that these views are held 
by pure theorists. You would hardly put yourself 
in that category, I fancy ? — Of course I have never 
had any practical experience in teaching ; I have 
had nothing to do with it myself. I do not pose 
as an expert in teaching. 1 have always taken an 
interest in those matters, and that has been my 
difficulty — that the children in the early standards 
are not taught sufficiently in Kafir — but I would 
not say that they should be taught altogether in 
Kafir, because I do not think it is possible. 

424. You are inclined to think the teaching is 
not sufficiently intelligible to the people, and 
results in a parrot-like knowledge? — Yes, especially 
in the lower standards. 

425. And that would result in a mechanical 
knowledge ? — Yes. They just read it off and 
commit it to memory. A native has a splendid 
memory, and they will commit this knowledge to 
memory when they are little children, and do not 
understand what they are learning, and I find 
that makes it almost impossible for them to grasp 
at a later stage the learning which is given to 
them. 

426. I take it you mean that the effect of the 
system is to develop the intelligence too little and 
the memory too much ? — Yes. 

427. Have the inspectors, as far as you are 
#ware, an adequate knowledge of Kafir, to be 



74 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton able to superintend the teaching of Kafir?— Well r 
Thompson, of course, our inspectors. The Bev. Mr. McLaren 

Tui 7 1908 ^ as anc ^ ^ r ' ^ e ^ n a ^ S0 nas — * ne two inspectors 

' nearest me. I do not know about the others. 

Then Mr. Bennie, an inspector in the Colony, 

would also have that knowledge ; but I do not 

know about the other inspectors. 

428. Are there any other criticisms that you 
have to pass on the present system of teaching in 
the schools, or is it simply this matter of language ? 
— No ; that is the only one, I think. Of course I 
should like to see industrial training at these 
schools if it is possible, but we always come to 
expense : the expense makes that impossible, but 
I would very much like to see it. I think we give 
them too little industrial training, especially in 
regard to agriculture. 

429. Kave you gone into the question whether 
the objection on the score of expense is insuper- 
able ? — No, I have not been into it myself. I have 
been told it is out of the question. 

430. Do you think, as far as you are aware, tha 
matter has been sufficiently investigated by a 
practical man ? — 1 think so, in this way, that I do< 
not see how you would carry it out without having 
instructors or training up your teachers. You 
might possibly train up your teachers to give the 
necessary instruction, and then of course you 
would want land. It would be a big scheme, and 
would have to be gone into. 

431. When the matter was inquired into some 
time ago it was said the schools were situated in 
high places, where it was difficult to have agricul- 
tural training ? — That is so in the majority of cases ; 
the schools are put on high ridges in the majority 
of cases. 

432. What is the reason of that ? — Generally it is 
central, and it is prominent and easily got at by 
the missionary, who generally drives to the school 
or church. 

433. What is the reason why you feel that in- 
dustrial education is so important ? — I look upon 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 75 

the natives as distinctly an agricultural and Mr. Newton 
pastoral people, and although some few of them Thompson. 
may elect to follow other callings, I think the bulk Julv - 190g 
of them will always remain more or less an agri- 
cultural and pastoral people ; and I think any 
education they can get which will help them to 
cultivate the land and to raise good stuff and so 
on would be a good thing and keep them em- 
ployed in a good and useful way. 

434. That is what you might call a utilitarian 
argument, and you feel that that is the real 
argument in favour of industrial education ? — 
Yes. 

435. It is sometimes suggested that industrial 
education is also of value in developing the land, 
and is an essential part of the education, and that 
is especially important in the case of natives ? — I 
daresay that would be so, although I have no 
practical experience on that point. 

436. With regard to the ordinary book-learning 
of the natives, do you think the subjects which 
are taught are taught with sufficient regard to the 
circumstances of the natives, or have you no 
special experience of that ? — I do not see any 
objection to the native acquiring the knowledge 
in the way it is given him now as long as he 
understands it. I think that is the main point ; 
if he understands it I think it is a good thing. 

437. It is often suggested that our textbooks 
and our system of teaching subjects like arith- 
metic, for instance, are based entirely on European 
experience ? — Yes. 

438. And bear their trace, and therefore unin- 
telligible to natives, and even to other South 
Africans to some extent. Have you any experience 
of that ? Could you express an opinion on that ? 
— No ; I have no experience in regard to that. 

439. Can you say anything about the moral 
and religious teaching in these native schools ? — 
Well, I believe there is less time given to religious 
teaching now than there used to be in what I call 
the olden davs — that would be Sir Langham 



16 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M o iivTe 011 ^ a ^ es days. I think they paid more attention to it 
Thompson, than now, because the time table is so full up now, 
jui 7 1908 an( ^ they nave little or no time, although I believe 
the missionaries always try to give as much time 
as possible to this side of the question, and I 
believe they have in every location school some 
kind of religious instruction. 

440. Do you think that that is a matter which 
requires reform ? — Yes. I think that they do not 
get enough. I think that is the feeling that the 
missionaries have — that they have not enough 
moral training. 

441. Do you think, as a magistrate, that that is 
particularly necessary for natives?— I think it is 
very necessary. 

442. Do denominational differences cause diffi- 
culty in this matter of moral and religious 
teaching ? — I do not think they would cause any 
difficulty at all events in the Transkei, because 
nearly every location has its own school, and the 
school is connected with the church to which the 
people belong. 

443. Do the natives take an active interest in 
denominational differences ? — Oh, yes, they are 
very keen on denominational differences — very 
keen. 

444. Do you think the teaching of hygiene in 
schools is a desirable or a practicable thing? — I 
think it would be a very excellent thing if it 
could be carried out. 

445. Have you seen Dr. Muir's references to this 
matter in his report ? — No, I have not. 

446. Dr. Muir says in his report that it is impos- 
sible to do more with hygiene than to get the 
teachers to see that the ordinary rules of hygiene- 
are understood and practised in the school. Now, 
would it be possible to get that amount done, do 
you think, in the native schools, and would it be 
desirable ? — I think it would be very desirable if 
the teachers could teach hygiene, but I suppose 
they have none who could do so, except the very 
elementary principles of hygiene ; but, however 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIYE EDUCATION". 



July 7, 1908. 



elementary they might be, they would be better Mr. Newton 
than nothing. Of course, unless they are trained Thomson, 
they could not give much. 

447. Do you think that could be attained ?— 
think that could be attained, certainly, and I 
think in course of time with the training of 
teachers, if more attention could be given to a 
subject like that, it would be an excellent thing. 

448. I suppose the tendency in these matters is 
upwards ? — Oh, yes. certainly. 

449. Have you any views with regard to 
secondary education ? There is no provision made 
for secondary education apart from the normal 
course at present — I mean by the Government. 
Do you think that is satisfactory ? — I believe in 
the native paying for his education beyond a cer- 
tain point. I think, of course, that the Govern- 
ment should help to support the institutions 
giving that education, but at the same time I think 
that the natives should pay in the same way as 
Europeans for education beyond a certain point. 

450. j^pt a - very large number of natives get 
beyond a certain point. Do you think there is 
any real demand for secondary education amongst 
the natives ? — I do not think there is any real 
demand in point of numbers, but I do think that 
there is a demand in this way, and we find, for 
instance, if you do not give this education they 
will go elsewhere for it, and I think that is a bad 
thing. 

451. For what purpose do you think natives 
naturally want secondary education ? — They have 
an idea at present that they are being kept back 
and that if they can only get this education they 
will be able to compete with the Europeans, and 
that if they do not get it they will go under. 
That is the feeling the native has. 

452. What opening is there for natives who have 
received secondary education ? — There is very little 
opening at present — very little indeed — and they 
do not realise that. Of course they can go as 
teachers, and may get an appointment here and 
there. 



78 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton 453. It is sometimes suggested that they should 

Thomson, be professional men— lawyers and doctors. Do 

— you think that it is a desirable thing ? — I think if 

' they choose to pay for it I should let them have 

lawyers and doctors, but, as I warned them the 

other day at the Lovedale Convention, I think 

they are doomed to very sad disappointment when 

they come to that stage, because the professions 

are overcrowded as far as we are concerned, and 

how much more so will it be with the natives ! 

But I think you have got to let them have it, and 

I think it is desirable they should have it if 

they want it. 

454. In regard to the children of these, would it 
be an advantage to the administration if these 
people were well educated ? — Most distinctly. 

455. In what way ? — I have always found that 
an educated native in an official position is a very 
useful man in every way. He understands the 
laws of the Government, he understands anything 
that you explain to him, and he takes a broader 
and more intelligent view of everything, and he is 
less under the influence of his people. 

456. Do you think that would be the general 
opinion of the magistrates in the Transkei ? — Well, 
magistrates are like most other people ; they differ 
so. That I do not know, and I would not care to 
say. My own experience with most magistrates 
who have been in the Territories, say, 30 years is 
that they may differ in their policy with the 
natives. 

457. You think it would lead the chiefs to appre- 
ciate forward movements and assist in that way ? 
— Yes, and it helps to break up the power of the 
chief. 

458. The education of the people, that is ?— The 
education of the chiefs or their sons helps to break 
up their power in the way in which they used it 
the olden days ; that is, as long as they remain 
raw natives the tribal ties are much stronger, and 
I think education helps to weaken those, and I 
think that is where the secret of the success of the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. i )) 

Cape policy has been in educating these natives — Mr. Newton 
that the education has weakened those ties. Thompson. 

459. Do you think those who control the educa- Jul J 1908 
cational policy are sufficiently in touch with the 
circumstances of the Territories ? — Well, they 
ought to be, because they have their inspectors 

who are there going round during the whole year. 
They should be in touch. 

460. It is sometimes suggested that the native 
education should be under a separate official who 
should reside in King William's Town or the 
Territories themselves. Do you think that w^ould 
be a desirable or undesirable thing ? — Of course if 
you are going to separate the native education 
from the education of the rest of the Colony, I 
think it would be very desirable to prevent the 
two systems being worked by one man, but as long 
as you have one system I do not think it is 
necessary. 

461. What is your view of having one or two 
systems ? — That all depends on the education you 
propose to give the native. If you are to educate 
him on the same lines as the European I do not 
see any reason for a separate system, except 
perhaps just to modify the teaching up to the 3rd 
or 4th standard. That is the only alteration I 
would make. On the other hand, if you decide 
on a course quite apart I think it would be 
necessary to have separate departments, but I may 
say the natives would oppose very strongly a 
change of that kind. They would think at once 
there was something behind it, and become 
suspicious. 

462. Have you anything further to say ? — No. 

463. Colonel Stanford,'] Under their own system 
these people had large control of their own local 
affairs, had they not ? — Yery large control. 

464. Do you think that this introduction of a 
certain amount of local government under our 
system has been acceptable to them ? — Yes. I think 
so. 



80 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN I5EFORE THE 

Mr. Norton 465. And that it will do good ? — I think it has 
Thompson, done and will do, always provided it is properly 
Jul 7 1908 & u id ec * — the General Council. 

466. Are you referring specially to the Chair- 
man of the Council ? — Yes. 

467. You think he is a man who should be 
always specially selected ? — Yes, and carefully 
selected. If the Council ever falls into the hands 
of a weak man who is unable to control the Coun- 
cil it w r ill get into difficulties, and that could very 
easily happen. 

- 468. So far are you satisfied with the control 
both by the Government from Cape Town and the 
control locally by the Chairman ? — Quite satisfied. 

469. And do you recommend that any change 
should be made in that system at present ? — Well, 
I have sometimes thought if it could be worked it 
would be better not to have the General Council. 
I think that it would be better only to have 
District Councils, and to give each local district 
not only the right of spending their own money, 
subject of course to certain control, but then there 
is the difficulty of dealing with matters which 
now are called General Council matters— such, for 
instance, as the agricultural institutions and in- 
dustrial institutions. But then again it has 
occurred to me that possibly there might be some 
system of a sinking fund into which, say, there 
was a first charge on the funds of each district — 
that these should be pooled for meeting expendi- 
ture of that kind— but then of course again would 
come the difficulty as to what body should control 
that expenditure. So there are so many difficulties 
in the way when one begins to think of it ; but I 
have sometimes thought it would be a better 
system to have only District Councils. But until 
some better system can be found I think the 
General Council system is the best, because there 
are so many difficulties in the other. 

470. What is the present fault you see in the 
system of the General Council ? — There are two to 
my mind. First there is the one that the votes in 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 81 

the General Council are apt not to be in accordance Mr Newton 
with the revenue of the various districts, which Thompson. 
causes a certain amount of dissatisfaction. One Jul ~ 1908 
district is then paying more or less for the educa- 
tion or roads of another district. To give an 
example, at the last General Council meeting one 
district is considerably in arrear with its revenue. 
It has a large amount of revenue outstanding. 
Other districts have paid up, and it simply means 
that they have paid for the district which has not 
paid up, and now we are getting these intelligent 
natives on the Council they see this, and the 
people feel their money is going to another district 
and they are not getting adequate return. Then 
the expenditure has to be curtailed to come within 
the revenue, and a percentage reduction is made, 
probably, on the road vote, so that a district finds 
its road vote is cut down in order to pay for the 
education vote of another district probably, and 
that causes a great deal of dissatisfaction. That is 
one point. Then, rightly or wrongly, I have never 
been altogether sure that we were wise in bring- 
ing all these people together and teaching them 
amalgamation. 

471. Mr. Levey.'] That is political ?— Yes. I 
have always had my doubts on this point. 

472. Colonel Stanford.'] At any rate, have you 
seen any evil resulting from it ? — Absolutely none 
so far. 

473. In connection with school management, do 
you not think that some greater use might be made 
of the District Councils than is at present the case ? 
That is, instead of a committee for each school 
from each location, that the District Council should 
in some way take the place of such local com- 
mittees? — I was going to say that we have now 
school committees appointed by the District 
Council, and these men visit the schools from time 
to time and see how they are getting on, but they 
have no power really ; and it was suggested at the 
last Council meeting that the magistrate of the 
district should have authority from the Education 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. G 



July 7, 1908. 



82 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton Department to visit a school whenever he 
Thompson, happened to be passing in the neighbourhood, and 
satisfy himself the work was going on satis- 
factorily. Of course now some magistrates who 
were in the habit of doing this have given it up. 
because they have no right to go into the schools. 
It was proposed that that right should be restored 
to them, or, rather, given to them, because I do not 
suppose they ever had the right, although they 
did it. 

474. In addition to them the District Councils 
have appointed sub- committees to see to the 
attendance of the children, have they not ? — Yes ; 
they have sub- committees to see to the attendance 
of the children. 

475. Is that acting well ? — It has not been 
altogether a success, because we find that these 
committees get the children to school for a week 
or two, and then they disappear again. I may say 
there is a point affecting the numbers of the 
schools just now. The red native says if he sends 
his girls to school they grow up and become 
civilized, and they run away with the first man 
they meet and get married at the office, and for 
this reason they prefer not to send their girls to 
school, but to keep them in the red state and then 
marry them in their own way, so that lately there 
has been great difficulty in getting the children to 
go to school. That is one reason. Then, of course, 
there is always the inevitable difficulty arising in 
regard to the boys herding stock at certain seasons 
of the year, so that this committee is always work- 
ing, but is not always successful. 

476. Nevertheless, would you say there is a great 
advance of Christianity and civilization through- 
out these people in the Territories ? — I certainly 
think there is a steady advance ; it is slow but 
sure, and I think every year there is an advance. 

477. While recognizing the reasonableness from 
his own point of view of the red native regarding 
his girls in that way, would you recommend any 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 83 

step backwards in our law which emancipates the Mr. Newton 
native woman in respect of marriage at the age of Thomson. 
21 ? — No ; I would not care to do that. — 

478. Are the payments of teachers regulated to u y 7 ' 1 
3^our satisfaction as to the manner of payment ? — 

Do you mean the actual manner of payment or the 
amount paid ? 

479. I speak more at present of the manner of 
payment ? — Yes. I think they prefer to get their 
money from the missionary. We pay it now 
through the missionary, and I think that is 
satisfactory. The only difficulty that has arisen 
is in regard to the missionary getting the money. 
Of course the Government and the Council do not 
take any responsibility, and the missionary finds 
it very inconvenient to get the money personally, 
and besides does not like to ride about the country 
with large sums of money, and there are diffi- 
culties in regard to that ; but I think the method 
of payment through the missionary is a very 
good one. 

480. What could be substituted for it, if there 
was a change made ? — They tried some years ago 
to pay them at the different offices, but it was 
found that did not work, because when a teacher 
arrived probably on the last day of the breaking 
up of school, or the next day, he came to the office 
and wanted his money, and the Assistant Magis- 
trate — who was also Council secretary — might be 
engaged on the Bench, and this man might have 
to wait two or three hours for his money. He may 
have started from home to go to King William's 
Town, and he is delayed in this way, and it causes 
dissatisfaction. 

481. Therefore you prefer to keep the present 
method ? — Yes. I think it would be best unless 
you had a man who could be always in attendance 
to pay these teachers when they turned up. 

482. Do you think there will soon be a move- 
ment amongst the natives to secure control of the 
undenominational schools and to eliminate the 
missionaries ? — There is a tendency in that 



84 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton direction on the part of some, but I do not think it 
Thomson, should ' be encouraged. I think it will be a very 
— bad day for the Colony when it takes place. 

July 7, 1908. 48 g j n what way d() you tMnk it possible tQ 

• give more strength to the District Council and the 
Chairman of the District Council — the Resident 
Magistrate — in respect of the efforts that that 
Council has already been making to inspect 
schools and secure better attendance of scholars, 
and generally to show its interest in the school 
system ? — I think that it would be sufficient if the 
Magistrate and, say, a certain number of the mem- 
bers of the District Council had, as a Committee, 
the right to visit the schools at any time and to 
see that the work was going on all right, and then 
I think it would be a good system to appoint in 
each location two or three men as a standing com- 
mittee, to be appointed by the District Council, to 
supervise the school matters. 

484. To what extent would you give them 
powers ? Would they be only advisory or actual 
executive powers ? — I may say personally I have 
always been in favour of some kind of modified 
compulsory education law for the natives in the 
Territories, but I know that is opposed very 
strongly, generally speaking. I have always been 
in favour of it, because I believe if we have failed 
at all in the education of the native, it is because 
we take one or two here and there and educate 
them up, and do not raise the mass. I believe 
with a compulsory education law — which would, 
of course, have to be modified to suit the circum- 
stances of the people and the country — we would 
bring them up very well. Perhaps it would be far 
more slowly, but their progress would rest on a far 
sounder foundation. 

485. With regard to the executive officers, my 
point is how to connect them with the Education 
Department ? — That is, the committee ? 

486. Yes ? — The only way would be to draft a set 
of regulations giving them some small powers. 

487. Say visiting and reporting to the Magis- 
trate ?— First of all. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 85 

488. And the Magistrate to communicate with Mr. Newton 
the Education Department? — Yes. Of course it Thompson. 
means a lot of work for the Magistrate, and I do ' — ™H 
not know with his present staff if he could do it. 

489. What is your experience in reference to the 
industrial habits of the educated, or semi-educated, 
native ? — I think the semi- educated native in most 
cases is a more industrious man than the red man. 
He will very often grow forage and things of that 
kind, and will generally enclose his garden, and 
very often build himself a decent house, as may 
be seen in parts of the Territories now. 

490. In respect of going out to service, either at 
the labour centres or amongst farmers ? — I think 
possibly in the past the educated man has not 
cared to go out to service so much. He preferred, 
if he could, to get some position as a clerk or a 
teacher ; but I think that is wearing off, and I do 
not think it makes any difference now, and I think 
within a verv short time that will wear off 
altogether. 

491. And are you finding natives who can read 
and write are now more ready than formerly to 
go to labour centres ? — Oh, yes. There are numbers 
who go now much more readily than formerly. 
Formerly a man with a little education would not 
go, but they do now, 

492. Naturally the wants of these people and 
their families are greater than the wants of the 
red man ? — There is no comparison ; the wants of 
the semi-educated native are very much greater. 

493. So, in the consumption of goods, the 
educated, civilized and Christianized native is a 
better commercial asset to the country ? — Yery 
much better in every way. 

494. As to loyalty to the Government, what is 
your view ? — I think they are in every way just 
as loyal. Of course a lot of half-educated men, as 
must happen, will very often write and say a lot 
of stupid things, but I think generally speaking 
the educated native is perfectly loyal. 

495. You have some experience of the native 
wars ? — Yes. 



86 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton 495. And what was your experience of the 
Thompson, educated natives ? —That they were always on the 



July. 7, 1908, 



side of the Government — more particularly at 
that time than any other time. 

497. What do you mean hj the expression 
"location"? — Of course I was referring to the 
system we have in the Territories, where we have 
a large number of natives located in one locality 
under charge of one man called a headman, and 
that area you call a location. That differs, of 
course, in Fingoland, where two or three of the 
old locations have been knocked into one for 
survey purposes. 

498. A location means a distinct area controlled 
by one man, and usually that area has reference 
to the limits of occupation by the clan ? — Yes. 

499. You look forward to the time when a num- 
ber of these people will enter the professions ? — I 
think that will come. 

500. And then they will have to stand or fall ? 
— Yes, and I think many of them will faint by 
the way. 

501. Already they are largely admitted as 
clergymen, are they not ?— Yes. 

502. All the churches have native clergymen in 
their employment ? — Yes. 

503. Duly ordained ? — Yes. „ 

504. Then there is scope for them, is there not, 
in respect of teachers in schools ? — Yes, I believe 
the demand for teachers is very great ; in fact, so 
great that I think Dr. Muir insists on those going 
on to a certain point in their education taking up 
the teachers' course. The demand for teachers is 
very great. 

505. Is it your observation that it is those tribes 
who have been longest under the control of the 
Cape Government who have made the greatest 
advances? — This is so in regard to the Fingoes 
particularly. They have made very great strides, 
and Mr. McLaren, Inspector of Schools, drew 
attention to the fact at the last Council meeting, 
and repeated the statement the other day at the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 87 

Lovedale Convention. In regard to Fingoland the Mr. Newton 
percentage of children going to school compares Thompson. 
very favourably with the most civilized country 7 1908 
in the world, which, he said, was 16 or 17 per uy ' 
cent., whereas the Fingo percentage is 14 to 15 
per cent. 

506. Do you not think the difference of view 
amongst magistrates regarding the value of 
educated headmen rests largely on the matter of 
the people controlled by the headmen ? — I do not 
think it would make any difference to the people 
themselves, at all events in the lower parts of the 
Transkei. I think the Gaikas, for instance, would 
respect and work as well with an educated chief 
as with one who was not educated. They might 
have been more suspicious of him at one time, but 
that has all gone. 

507. My point is that is due to their old changing 
tribal conditions ? — Quite so ; yes. 

508. What is the General Council doing with 
respect to industrial training and the teaching of 
agriculture ? — It has two industrial institutions. 
One is at Butterworth, where carpentering and all 
mason work and certain parts of blacksmiths' 
work are taught — also wagon-making. Then they 
have another one at Umzimkulu, where carpenter- 
ing is taught. Those are the only two industrial 
institutions they have. Then they have the agri- 
cultural institution at Tsolo, where agriculture in 
all its simple branches is taught — the use of 
machinery, that is, the more simple agricultural 
machinery, the making of butter, and general 
farm work, and also, of course, the keeping and 
management of stock and the improvement of the 
breeding of the stock ; and they have a large 
number of horses there, too, which are handled by 
these men on the farm, and these horses are kept 
for the purpose of serving the mares sent in from 
the surrounding districts. 

509. These horses are usually distributed ? — Yes, 
one to each Magistracy in the Council area, for the 
same purpose. They have now acquired another 



88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton farm near Butter worth, and people in that neigh- 
Thompson, bourhood will send their mares to that farm. 

July 7, 1908. 510. About what sum of money would you say 
has the General Council expended now for indus- 
trial and agricultural enterprize for the benefit of 
the public? — Unfortunately, I have not my returns 
here of the last General Council, but I should say 
somewhere about £30,000. It is published in the 
last report of the Council, but I am speaking now 
from memory. It is possibly more. I know they 
spent over £10,000 on the agricultural institution 
at Tsolo. I would prefer though that the figures, 
if possible, should be obtained from Mr. Car- 
michael's report. 

511. In fact, from what you said to the Chair- 
man, you favour the establishment of an institution 
affording higher education to natives than at 
present they seem ordinarily to be able to obtain 
in these mission schools ? — Yes, I do favour the 
establishment of an institution of that kind. 

512. Is it much desired by the native people 
themselves ? — I would not say it is very much 
desired by every native, but I think all the 
educated influential natives are unanimous on the 
point that they wish for higher education. 

513. In your judgment are they willing to pay 
for it ? — I believe they are— that is a proportion of 
them — but I think that is a point on which they 
will probably fail. While a number will pay for 
it, there is a number who now talk of higher educa- 
tion who will not do so, or will not be able to do 
so. It will be only the best men who will go to 
the higher institutions if they have to pay. I do 
not think there will be so many as is generally 
expected. 

514. Do not you think that would tend to check 
the exodus at present remarked on of native 
students from this country to America ? — I think 
it would check it almost entirely, if the system 
adopted at any such college here was such as to 
carry with it the confidence of the natives. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 89 

515. Mr. Levey.'] Do you think it would be a Mr. Newton 
good thing if the native teachers had to pass an Thompson. 
examination in agriculture or arboriculture ? — Yes, _ . — lOAO 
I think it would be a very good thing. 

516. And of course increase their status and 
salaries after passing. The idea is that the teacher 
would be a kind of agricultural teacher in the 
school or in that locality ? — Yes, at the school. If 
he could combine agricultural training I think it 
would be a very good thing. 

517. At present the teachers are not qualified to 
impart education of that kind ? — I believe not. 

518. Of course you have had a very wide 
experience in Fingoland. Is it your opinion that 
the agricultural development there is any better 
now than it was 20 years ago ? — I think it is better 
than it was 20 years ago, but I do not think it has 
made that progress which it should have done. I 
think there has been improvement, but not to the 
extent that one might wish for. 

519. You touch upon the District Councils. Is 
it the opinion of these districts where they have 
the Glen Grey Act that they should have the ad- 
ministration of their own funds ?— I think while 
the people would probably prefer to have the 
administration of their own funds in the district, 
some of the more influential headmen and the 
members of the General Council would prefer the 
continuation of the present system. I think they 
rather like the idea of meeting at Umtata all to- 
gether ; it gives them more importance — a sort of 
Parliament. 

520. Do you not think the idea of many of them 
in wanting to do that is the amount of money they 
receive in fees ? — I daresay that has a good deal to 
do with it. 

521. They get heavy travelling expenses ? — Yes. 

522. What does the General Council at Urntata 
cost, approximately, for each meeting ? — 1 believe 
it costs about £600 or £800 each meeting — probably 
more ; say £1,000. 



90 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr^ Newton 523. A large number of the educated boys have 
Thompson, been taught trades. What becomes of these boys ? 
Jul 7 1908 ^ re ^ e y occupied in building houses for them- 
selves ? — Most of them are taken up in this way, 
that if the average European artisan can get a 
native who can do all the rough work — carpenter- 
ing for instance — he will not do it himself, but 
will get one of the natives at a reduced wage ; 
most of them are getting taken up in that way. 
The same with bricklaying. If a European con- 
tractor or mason can get one or two native boys 
who have been through these institutions, and 
have a certain amount of knowledge in regard to 
stone-cutting and brickwork, he will employ 
them, but he will keep them under him. There 
is a number of others who have gone out working 
on their own account. One has just returned from 
putting up some buildings at Mr. Blaine's farm. 
He came to me the other day for work, and told 
me he had just returned from Mr. Blaine's farm, 
where he had been putting up a house. 

524. Are there many of those cases, or are they 
exceptional ?— I think most of the boys who have 
received an industrial training could be accounted 
for. There may be some failures, but I think most 
of them could be accounted for if they were 
hunted up. 

525. What is the idea of the natives' great 
desire for education amongst them ? What do 
they gain by it? — I think personally that they 
have the same mistaken idea that many Europeans 
have. They think as soon as they get an educa- 
tion equal to that of a European they will be made 
men, and will be able to do anything they like. 
I think the majority of them do not really under- 
stand it. Of course some of them understand that 
education is a good thing and will help them to 
get on, and they do not expect anything very 
great from it. 

526. Have you had an account of Booker 
Washington's system ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 91 

527. Are you in accord with it ? — I used to be Mr Newton 
very much in accord with his system. Of course Thompson. 
I have never been able to visit his establishment, — 19Qg 
but from what I have read it has always struck me 

as being very sound. 

528. Do you not think it is of importance that the 
principle of our educational system for natives at 
this present stage of their civilization should be to 
teach them manual labour — principally agricul- 
tural education ? — I cannot agree. I hold that the 
books will improve the native. I think he will be 
a better man if he has his education. 

529. But do you not think manual labour should 
be side by side with it ? — I think the agricultural 
institutions and the industrial institutions should 
give him as much labour as possible. I believe 
the majority of the natives must remain on the 
land, and anything you teach them to improve the 
land will be a good thing; but I do not think 
simply by not giving them education it will — 

530. I mean give them education by all means ? 
— As long as you give them education then I 
think each one must find his own place afterwards. 

531. T mean give those who can pay for it a 
higher education. You cannot stop their aspira- 
tions ?— No. 

532. But in the case of ordinary natives who 
have to earn their living they should have an 
elementary education, and part of it should be two 
or three hours a day gardening or bee farming or 
poultry farming — the same system as they have in 
France ? — That would be excellent if you carry it 
out. 

533. Do you not think it is desirable there 
should be some step in that direction ? — Certainly. 

534. With regard to the system of surveying 
allotments, are these people improving the allot- 
ments to any extent ? — You mean surveyed in 
Fingoland ? 

535. Yes ? — Yes ; I believe they are improving 
them. At the present time I think there are 
several houses being built on them. 



92 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Ml o^i W i ton ^^' ^ u ^ ^° an ^ a PP rec i a ^le extent ? — I believe 

Thompson, they are. Of course these things are slow. The last 

jui V 1908 ^ ew 7 ears ^ ne na tives have taken to manuring 

' their lands much more than they used to. Only 

one man, perhaps, in a location used to do it. The 

other day I was in a location and in a few 

miles I saw quite a dozen lands where they were 

working at manuring. 

537. That is where the agricultural teacher 
would be useful? — Yes. They are gradually im- 
proving themselves. 

538. If the people are to exist — supposing the 
goldfields go down, and they have no other work — 
could they possibly live by the soil unless they 
improved it ? — No, they could not. 

539. And they are increasing so rapidly they will 
not be able to keep so many cattle in future unless 
they grow sufficient to feed the stock ? — Yes. Any 
education they can get to help them in their 
pastoral or agricultural life will be most helpful, 
because that is what it will really have to come to. 

540. Along the coastal parts where pineapples 
and bananas grow, do the natives go in for culti- 
vating fruits ? — No, not in the Kentani district. 
They have tried here and there, but there is no 
market where it has been tried. 

541. Mr. T. Searle.} Your experience has only 
been in the Transkei. You have no experience of 
the native schools in the Colony proper ?— No. I 
have been all my official life in the Transkeian 
Territories. 

542. They come under the C class of schools — 
aborigines' schools ? — Yes. 

543. You mentioned some difficulty about col- 
lecting fees. What is the system of collecting ? — 
I referred to the districts where there was no 
Council in existence. There the system is, I 
believe, that the location agrees to contribute so 
much a year, and they collect it amongst them- 
selves. They agree practically to tax themselves, 
and they pay so-much a year. Of course in the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION". 93 

Council districts that is done away with by the Mr. Newton 
fact that the money is voted from the Council Thompson. 
funds. Jul ~ 190g 

544. In the Colony there is a strong desire uy ' 
amongst the native schools to have some such 
system, but without having the council system as 

a whole. Do you think there is any part of the 
council system which might be adapted for the 
Colony ? — Oh, yes. I daresay it could be done in 
the same way as the council system. Although 
based upon the Glen Grey Act, it did not introduce 
the whole of the Glen Grey Act into the Transkei. 
The Act that we have there is different to the one 
at Glen Grey, and I have no doubt a further 
modification could be made to suit the circum- 
stances in the Colony. 

545. I find there is a very strong desire to have 
just the Council for that purpose, so as to be able 
to rate people for school purposes ? — Then the only 
difficulty would be, if you only have it for that 
purpose^ where will you get the machinery to 
work it, because you must have the machinery. 

546. Colonel Stanford.'] Where you have the 
machinery you have the Council ?— Just so. 

547. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you find in the Transkei 
a tendency amongst natives who have been 
educated to use grandiloquent language ? — Very 
often, especially if he has had a very elementary 
education. 

548. How do you account for that ? — I account 
for it partly in this way, that he has not been 
taught in the early standards in Kafir so that he 
could understand, and he very often uses these 
words without thoroughly understanding them — 
just stringing them together, as it were ; and then 
some of them make a great point of it because 
they have an idea that it sounds well. I have 
had a case where a man has read through a 
dictionary, and when he has struck a word, noted 
it for when he writes another letter, to give the 
idea that he is well educated. In some cases it is 
not to appear impertinent or weir educated, but 



94 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton because he thinks it will express his feelings well ; 
Thompson! i n other words, he has not been taught to express 
— his meaning properly in English. 
juiy 7, i g^ j^ Q ^ ou no ^ ^ink ^jg s bould be brought 

to the notice of the teachers, so that they should 
be taught simpler language ? — I think it is very 
desirable it should be brought to the notice of the 
teachers. 

550. Mr. Levey.'] Sometimes the teachers are 
offenders in that respect ? — They are very bad 
themselves sometimes. 

551. Mr. T. Searle.] With regard to teaching 
hygiene, you are aware they have text-books on 
hygiene as readers ? — I believe they have, although 
I cannot say I have ever seen any. 

552. Do you not think it might be a very good 
plan, instead of using, say, a Koyal reader, if they 
had a text-book on hygiene as a reader ? — Yes, I 
think that would be good. 

553. That gives a considerable amount of know- 
ledge of hygiene without having any special 
instruction ? — Yes. If you could incorporate it in 
that way I think it would be a good thing. 

554. Then it would be a very good thing if a 
special point were made of teaching hygiene with 
regard to stock — that is, the treatment of diseases ? 
— Yes, that would be an excellent thing. 

555. Because our great difficulty when cattle 
diseases break out is the ignorance of the natives ? 
— Yes, although of course, as a matter of fact the 
native, in dealing with stock diseases, is quite the 
equal of the European in most of them. It is only 
otherwise in the case of possibly lung- sickness and 
East Coast fever, but in ordinary local diseases I 
back the native. 

556. I had lung-sickness in mind. They will 
not believe in the contagion and that it is in- 
curable, and that sort of thing? — Unfortunately 
our own attempts on these things have been so 
unfortunate. ¥e recently advised all the natives 
to inoculate with the Grahamstown virus, and it 
proved a dead failure, and they do not altogether 
trust our methods— and you cannot blame them. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 95 

557. What is your experience with regard to Mr. Newton 
educated natives and crime ? Is it correct, as so Thompson. 
many hold, that educated natives are more liable JtQ — 190g 
to commit crime than others ? — That has not been u y ' 
my experience ; my experience has just been the 
contrary. In all the districts in which I have 

been the record books will show the percentage of 
educated natives committed for some time is very 
very small. 

558. I suppose when an educated native does 
commit crime much is made of it ? — I can only 
suppose that is so, because I have so often heard 
the same statement made, but it is not borne out 
by my own experience. Certainly when he does 
commit crime it is generally serious, such as 
forgery, but it is very seldom ; in fact, in my 30 
years' experience I only remember two or three 
cases of forgery. 

559. Of course it is only an educated native who 
could commit forgery ? — Quite so. 

560. The Native Council made a contribution, I 
believe, of £10.000 to the Inter-State College ?— 
They did. 

561. So they are desirous generally of having 
some institution where they can have higher 
education ? — It is felt that there is a great want on 
the part of a large number, especially of the 
educated natives. It is only the educated ones 
who really want it, and they do want it. 

56^?. Mr. Murray.'] You said the educated native, 
you thought, was gradually taking to various 
forms of service ? — Yes. 

563. Would you state what you think the cause 
for that ? — I think he is finding he will have to do 
so — that his wants are more and he cannot live as 
he used to live. As soon as the native becomes 
civilized he requires clothes for himself and his 
family, and he generally alters his food. Instead 
of living on mealies and milk, as in the olden 
days, he adds tea and coffee as well, and has a fair 
proportion of tinned meats, and if he cannot get 
tinned meat he will probably buy a sheep, and so 



96 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton on, and he lives more after the manner of a 

Tampion. European, so that he has greater wants really. 

— 564. So that even if we should fail in our 

' endeavours to teach him manual labour, you still 

consider the pressure of natural circumstances will 

force him ? — Certainly. Every day I think natural 

circumstances are forcing the native to labour in 

some form or other. 

565. Do you think that, even failing being able 
to give him instruction in some manual work, the 
mere fact of having to do regular work at school 
for five hours a day has a tendency to teach him 
regular habits ? — I certainly would think so. 

566. Now, if it were possible to introduce com- 
pulsory education, so that a native child had to 
attend school from the age of 8 to 13, let us say, do 
you or do you not think that that would turn 
them out to work at an age when they would more 
easily learn to work than when they had the books 
at 17, as is often the case now ? — Yes. I think 
with a modified form of compulsory education in 
the Territories, at all events. I do not know much 
about the Colony. I believe a large number of 
these boys, when they had a certain amount of 
education and felt their wants increasing, would, 
as soon as they left school, go to work. 

567. My point is my experience is in the Colony, 
and one finds, under the present system, the at- 
tendance is" so irregular that you will find boys 
and girls at school from 14 to 17 doing, say, 
Standard III. work, on account of their irregular 
attendance — being out of school for months — at an 
age when they ought to be learning to use their 
muscles ? — Yes. 

568. Do you agree with that view ? — Yes, I do, 
only I would rather make the age 15. 

569. Then in connection with the natives who. 
have learnt some trade, the difficulty is raised by 
some that industrial training of that sort brings 
them in competition with the whites ?— Yes. 

570. Do you think this is a fair difficulty to 
bring forward ? — I think the only answer to it is 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 9/ 

that the law of competition must be allowed to Mr. Newton 
prevail. I do not see how you are to protect one ThoSpTon. 
man against another. Jul — l90g 

571. Is your experience in the Transkei that the 
native himself would tend to increase quite in the 
direction of the ordinary European artizan — that 
he would be inclined to spend his money very 
much in the same ways as the European artizan 
does ? — Yes, he spends it very much in the same 
way, only he is perhaps not so careful with it. A 
native is very ready to spend when he has money, 
and very often does so before he gets it. 

572. In connection with the use of the word 
" hygiene" in ordinary mission schools, do you not 
think it is attempting too much to teach hygiene 
there — that if you are satisfied with the ordinary 
habits of cleanliness and orderliness that is all you 
can expect at present ? — I would like to see some 
system of hygiene taught in the schools, but 
possibly it might be introduced very gradually. I 
do not know if you could do it all at once, but 1 
think it is very desirable in the interests of the 
health of the natives. 

573. Have you visited any mission stations in 
Cape Colony with a view to seeing their work ? — I 
cannot say I have except Lovedale. It is many 
years since I was at any of the institutions in the 
Colony. I am acquainted more with the missionary 
institutions in the Transkei. 

574. You referred to a book of Booker Washing- 
ton. Do you think that the success of his work 
depends upon the system or upon the man at the 
head of it ? — I should say both the system and the 
man. I think he himself is a very powerful man, 
and the system is particularly adapted and suitable 
to his work as carried on there. 

575. There is one little point. You said in the 
Transkei Dr. Muir insists that the children brought 
up to a certain standard must train as teachers ? — 
So I am given to understand. I understood so 
from an inspector of schools. I did not know that 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. H 



98 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newton was so, but in conversation with an inspector of 

Thompson, schools recently he told me that that was so. 

July 7~ 1908 576. Chairman.'] You mean there are no grants 

' for secondary education except in the normal 

course ? — I suppose that is the way in which it 

comes about. 

577. Mr. Murray.'] You said that the education 
had the effect of weakening the tribal ties ? — Most 
distinctly, I think. 

578. And you spoke of that as a good effect ? — 
Yes, I think it is a good effect from our point of 

' view. 

579. At the same time you recognize that there 
may be some evils which it is difficult to counter- 
act if we are to educate them ? — Yes, I think there 
are difficulties, because the whole problem is a 
difficult one, but if we do not break up the tribal 
tendencies there is always some liability, for 
instance, of their joining issue against us. 

580. Yes, but at the same time you would be 
inclined to make use of the influence of headmen 
in connection with school work and other work? — 
Oh, yes. Then many of our headmen are nuw 
more or less educated men. 

58f . Mr. de Kock.~] Do you not think education 
has the tendency of teaching them to combine for 
mutual protection of their mutual interests against 
those of the white men ? — Well, of course it might 
to a certain extent teach them that, but I think 
the education they will get along with those ideas 
will counteract any such tendency. 

582. And you base that on actual experience ? — 
Up to now, certainly. 

583. You do not know anything, of course, about 
the Bechuanaland tribe, do you ? — I have never 
had any experience with them. 

584. What is your experience in regard to those 
who have been educated ? Do they show any 
administrative ability ? — Yes. I know one chief 
who has had a fairly good education as it went in 
those days, and I believe he is very good. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 99 

585. You think his particular people are getting Mr Newton 
the advantage of his having the education in the Thompson. 
way in which he administers ? — Distinctly. Jul — 190g . 

586. Have you ever heard of any native who has 
been educated who has been a financial success as 
a business man ? — No. I have known several try 
it, but they have always been failures as f ar as I 
have known — all those I have had to do with. 

587. Do you think the parents in the Transkei 
are able to pay for the education of their children ? 
— Not without working for it. You mean the 
secondary schools ? 

588. Yes ? — No ; many are not and many of them 
now have to work. For instance, I have known 
boys sent to these schools and the brother, perhaps 
working at Johannesburg, sending the money to 
the father, who sends it to Lovedale or somewhere 
like that. 

589. In your opinion, do you think the educated 
native is more addicted to strong drink than the 
others ? — No, I should not think so. 

590. Does he take more kindly to the natural 
beverages of his people, like Kafir beer ? — No. I 
think most of them will drink Kafir beer. 

591. Mr. van Rooy.~\ In what way do these 
Councils assist financially in the erection of 
schools ? Is it only to receive from the Depart- 
ment and to hand it over — to distribute it as they 
think best ? — No ; they actually pay. 

592. How do they raise the funds ? — There is a 
proclamation levying a rate of 10s. in each Council 
district. 

592a. Specially for school purposes ? — No, a 
general rate of 10s. for works of improvement in 
the district, and then at the General Council meet- 
ing a certain proportion of that amount is allotted 
to that district for education purposes, and the 
school grants are paid out of that. 

593. So, practically, aid is given to these schools 
by funds contributed as well by the parents as 
others ? — Yes. 

594. Is it the parents only that desire to have 
some say in the payment of teachers and school 



100 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M o^ivie° n mana g emen t and so on, or is it the natives 

Thompson, generally ? — Of course it is probably the parents, 

T i 7 1ft Ac hut a large number of natives wish to have a say 

July 7, 1908. . , ".. J 

m the matter. 

595. And those are mostly the more advanced 
natives ? — Certainly. 

596. You spoke about the parrot-like way of 
learning of those natives, and said that that is due 
to the medium of instruction being English, a 
language they do not understand ? — I think so in 
the 1st, 2nd and 3rd standards. I do not think 
they thoroughly understand what they are learn- 
ing! 

597. Do they make a grievance of the fact of not 
being taught the Kafir language ? — The native's 
great idea is he should learn English, because if he 
works he will have to work for a European and 
he will want him to know English, and he thinks 
he is not learning if he is not learning English. 

598. Does education lessen their love for their 
own language? — Yes, that is so, but I think that 
is wearing off with the more intelligent of them, 
and I think they will begin to attach more 
importance to their own language. 

599. Do the natives show a particular desire for 
moral and religious education ? — Yes. 

600. Is the morale of the raw Kafir bad ? — Well, 
of course, viewed from our standard it would be 
bad. 

601. Education does seem to improve the 
morals ? — Yes. At all events it improves them 
to this extent that such immorality as is committed 
by the educated native is more out of sight than 
the immorality of the red native. 

602. Does it make them more truthful, and so 
on ? — My experience is that it does. 

603. This moral and religious instruction is, of 
course, not so much given in the schools as by the 
missionaries by the way of preaching and 
catechism, and so on ?— Yes. There is a small 
amount of religious teaching in the schools, I 
believe, but I do not think it is very much now. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 101 

604. That would be entirely according to the Mr. Newton 
opinion of the missionary ? — Yes. Thomson. 

605. I believe very few of these native children — 
in these State-aided schools go be}^ond Standard u y ' 
II.? — Oh. no. A large number go to Standard VI. 

In Fingoland a number of schools teach the 5th 
and 6th standards. 

606. The great majority, I believe, do not go 
beyond Standard II.? — Oh, no. Of course that 
would depend on how }^ou take the average. A 
large number go to Standards III., IV., V. and VI. 
These figures were quoted the other day by Inspec- 
tor McLaren. A great number of them pass every 
year. 

607. Of course, naturally, that education benefits 
them to a great extent ? — I think so, yes. 

608. With regard to this lack of initiative that 
was mentioned, would that perhaps be to some 
extent due to tire fact that the general public have 
really no say in the system of administration ? I 
mean these Councils rule and they administrate 
and no native has really a voice ? — I w T ould not 
say he has not a voice, because he has his repre- 
sentatives. 

609. Do they elect the representatives ? — Yes; at 
least they nominate a proportion of them, and the 
others, of course, are nominated by the Govern- 
ment. Out of six in each district they nominate 
four. 

610. Is there anything by which a desire is 
shown amongst the natives for a more democratic 
system of administration ? — No ; I do not know 
that it is particularly so. 

611. They do not seem to strive for more politi- 
cal power ? — I do not think there is a general feel- 
ing for more political power. Individuals may 
agitate for more political power. 

612. To your knowledge have any of the South 
African natives who have been educated outside 
the country proved detrimental to good order and 
morals ? — I certainly do not think that their 
influence is for the good. I think they have a bad 



102 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mi^ Newton influence, although I cannot quote any given case ; 
Thompson; I do not think their influence is good. 

July V, 1908. 613. If there has been any agitation at all to 
spread dissatisfaction does that affect more the 
relation between whites and coloured — I mean the 
power in any way to dissatisfy the natives with 
the supremacy of the white man in the country ? 
— Yes, I think certain men have preached that the 
natives are being kept under and trodden down, 
and they sort of urge these people to try to make 
an effort for themselves and start a church of their 
own. That is generally the idea, but that never 
gets very far. They get a few worthless characters 
to follow them, but it never gets any further. I 
believe if it is left alone it will fizzle out. 

614. I daresay the educated native is gradually 
more and more beginning to realise that education 
and civilization mean really more work and 
demand more industry ? — I think they realise that 
more and more every day, although perhaps very 
slowly ; still, they are realising it. 

615. So the educated native does not only prove 
a better commercial asset, but he is also a more 
useful worker? — Yes, and in time I believe he 
will make a better citizen. 

616. If education is pushed on naturally the 
result must be more production. We must take it 
they will take also to more agricultural and 
industrial work, and so on. It would naturally 
lead to a great increase in the production of 
commodities ? — Y r es, certainly. 

617. Do they as yet produce sufficient food for 
their own consumption ? — They do, of course, in a 
good season produce sufficient for their own con- 
sumption. 

618. They could increase vastly more than they 
do, even only to supply their own demands ? — 
They cultivate very largely now, and in a fair 
season practically all the ground available is taken 
up. Any native will take up and cultivate more 
ground if you will give it to him. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 103 

619. They really have no scope for more pro- Mr. Newton 
duction ? — In some locations they have, but in Thompson. 
others they are getting crowded ; it varies a good Jul ~ 1908 
deal ; some locations are crowded, and some are 

not. 

620. What prospects has the native for increased 
work and production ? — From an agricultural point 
of view, of course, he will have to adopt better 
methods of agriculture, I take it. He will have 
to improve the land he has got. It is sometimes 
said that if a man has too much land he does not 
improve it, and if he has only a reasonable 
quantity he will improve it. 

621. We must very soon reach a time when, un- 
less we have markets outside South Africa, we will 
have no encouragement to produce more ? — Well, 
of course as long as the country has plenty of food 
there is not much to trouble about, I take it ; as 
long as the native has plenty of food he will be 
all right. 

622. The way we push the native on must neces- 
sarily lead to this, that he becomes more and 
more a very strong competitor with the white 
man in the country ? — Of course eventually 
it may come to that. For instance, if you teach 
him to improve his methods of cultivation the day 
may come when he may export his forage and 
things the same as the European. I would not 

say that day will not come. * 

623. You think there is some ground for the 
whites in this country beginning to fear that in 
every respect we are training up the native to 
become a dangerous competitor with the white 
man ? — I would not say we need fear that any 
more than one would fear competition from 
another white man. I do not see that at all. If 
I go to college I have to take my chance, and I 
have to compete with all those there ; and I take 
it the white man in South Africa must compete 
against the native. If he is a better man he will 
prove himself so, and if not will go under. 



104 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Newtcn 624. The educated native, you say, makes a good 
Thompson, administrator too ? — Yes, as far as my experience 
■ — °x)es. 

625. I take it that means he administers more 
on European ideas ? — Yes. 

626. Chairman.'] We have had it suggested that 
the Lovedale Convention, which I believe you have 
been attending, is not representative except of a 
small exotic class. Is that your opinion ? — Yes. 
I think it is only representative of the more 
educated class. I do not think, for instance, that 
the raw native has got to the stage when he takes 
much interest in the higher education question. 

627. Do you think it represents the educated 
class ? — Yes, I do. 

628. You do not think it merely represents a 
peculiar type of missionary ? — No, certainly not. 

629. Mr. Levey.'] In your opinion the more the 
native can produce the better it is for the countrv? 
— Tes. 

630. Chairman,] Have you any further state- 
ment to make ? — I would only like to say I do not 
wish in any way to run down the present system. 
I would wish to pay a tribute to the present 
system of education ; it has done good work. The 
only thing is I think if they could teach the lower 
standards in Kafir it would be a great improve- 
ment ; in fact I think that is very essential. 

631. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you think there is any 
crying need in the Transkei for a change of system 
in our education ? — Not beyond that I think there 
is a need for changing that one portion of it — that 
they should be instructed in the elementary courses 
in their own languages — which I believe is done 
in many schools now. I do not think there is 
anything now against it being done, but I would 
like to see it compulsory. 



1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 105 

The Rev. Joseph George Sutton, examined. 

632. Chairman.'] You are the Head of the Dale ™ e ^- 
College, King William's Town ? — Yes. Son. 60 ' 

633. How long have you been there ? — 18 years. Jul - 

634. You have seen a good deal of native educa- u y 
tion ? — Not very largely — not more than in the 
native mission schools of the town. 

635. Have you been personally concerned with 
native education ? — Not at all. I have only been 
concerned with the church side of the question. 
We have a Kafir church in the town. 

636. You have heard some of the evidence which 
has been given by the previous witness, Mr. 
Thompson ? — Yes. 

637. Are you in general agreement with it, as far 
as your experience carries you ? — I think I can say 
almost entirely, with the exception that I know 
nothing about his knowledge of the Glen Grey 
Councils and that sort of thing. I agree with him 
mainly in the question of the desires expressed at 
Lovedale as to the teaching through the medium 
of Kafir — say up to the third standard but not 
more. 

638. You would advocate teaching English at 
the same time ? — Certainly, but that Kafir should 
be the medium in the early standards. 

639. Do you believe that would result in a better 
knowledge of English, or worse ? — Undoubtedly a 
better knowledge. The present knowledge, as 
Mr. Thompson pointed out, is what they learn very 
largely from memory, and they do not understand 
a great deal of what they are doing, and they write 
the most absurd composition, using words abso- 
lutely in wrong senses — high-flown language. I 
believe the only satisfactory way would be to teach 
them colloquially through their own tongue. 

640. Is that done in the schools with which you 
are connected ? — No. 

641. The teaching is not through Kafir ? — Not 
officially. I believe a good deal of teaching is in- 
cidentally done in Kafir ; it must be. 



106 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 642. The teachers themselves are Kafirs"? — Yes, 
Jo sutton. eo ' and they use Kafir, although they are not supposed 

CW; — ' 4-q 

July 7, 1908. 

643. And are the inspections conducted in Kafir? 
— No, they are conducted in English. The Inspec- 
tor, Mr. Ely, who was our inspector, happened to 
speak Kafir, but I do not think that is the usual 
experience. 

644. That you believe to be a really important 
reform ? — I do. 

645. Is there any other change necessary in the 
sytem of education as far as you are aware ? — Not 
any radical change, as far as I am aware. I gene- 
rally sympathize with the desire to make the 
education less bookish and more practical. I do 
believe the practical side is largely developed at a 
place like Lovedale, which I know well ; and I 
should emphasize that side of elementary education 
very much. 

646. In the schools with which you are directly 
connected it would be rather difficult to arrange, 
financially, for industrial education, would it not ? 
— That is the difficulty — the expense. 

647. Is moral and religious education thoroughly 
attended to in the schools so far as you know them? 
— Yes, and I think it is most desirable. 

648. Is anything done in this question of teach- 
ing hygiene ? — Nothing has been done at present, 
but I think it could easily be managed for reading 
books in Kafir for the first three standards to be 
produced treating of such elementary laws of 
health, and temperance and diet, and things like 
that ; it could easily be taught in that way without 
disarranging the time-table. 

649. Do you think it would be an advantage ? — 
A great advantage. 

650. Do I understand you to mean that that is a 
matter which might with advantage be attended 
to ? — Yes. It would be of great importance. I 
think it could easily be done in that way — inci- 
dentally in reading books. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 107 

651. With regard to the proposed native college The Rev. 
for secondary education, do you feel that that is X P tton. e °' 
an enterprise which ought to command our sym- Jul — l90g 
pathy ? — I think it is one of the things entering u y 
into practical politics. I do not think the demand 

is as great as is believed in some quarters, though 
I do think that the leaders of the people are deeply 
anxious to provide for higher education amongst 
natives — the best men, men like Mr. Tengo Jabavu 
at King William's Town, who I know, and the 
most energetic missionaries. 

652. Is the system of inspection in the schools 
satisfactory ? — I think so. 

653. Do you think an individual inspection is 
necessary at the present time ?— I do, yes. 

654. You think it is right that the promotion 
should be according to the report of the inspector, 
and not according to the decision of the teacher ? — 
In Kafir schools most certainly the inspector. 

655. That is necessary ? — Yes. 

656. Because of the position of the Kafir teacher? 
— And I have not very great faith in his judgment ; 
I should much prefer the inspector. 

657. Mr. Levey.'] Do you think in any system of 
education for natives we should not lose sight of 
industrial training ? — I would not lose sight of it 
at all. I think it is a very important thing to 
foster. It is fostered very largely in every insti- 
tution I know like Lovedale and St. Matthews, 
near Keiskama Hoek ; they are the only two I 
know. 

658. Looking to the Transkeian Territories, where 
you have about 100,000 children being educated, 
where the people are not rich, and their wants 
increase very much, do you not think it would 
be a serious state of things if those people were 
not taught something more ? — It is eminently 
desirable. 

659. You remember the idea of Hhodes in the 
Glen Grey Bill was to give fixity of tenure, with 
the object of making these people peasantry, so 
that they would improve their gardens, and have 



108 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The R ev. fruit gardens, and produce ten or twenty times as 
°sutton e °' much as they do ? — Yes ; and I thoroughly believe 

jui T 1908 * n t na ^- 

660. Mr. T. Searle.~\ Have you ever had any 

applications at the Dale College from natives to be 
admitted ? — One, yes, which caused a great deal of 
difficulty. Mr. Tengo Jabavu applied for the 
admission of his son, and it was brought before 
our then Dale College committee, and it was 
opposed most strongly by Mr. J. W. Weir, who is 
in sympathy with the natives. It led to great 
correspondence in the papers ; and eventually this 
boy was sent to England. He passed the London 
Matriculation in the first class. I decidedly think 
he could not have been admitted in the college. 
We should have lost numberless boys. But I 
sympathize with Mr. Tengo Jabavu's desire for his 
boy — who was clever — to get a training. 

661. You share Mr. Thompson's views about the 
education making the native really more in- 
dustrious and more useful in every wa}" ? — -My 
experience has been that it does make him more 
industrious and useful. 

662. Mr. Murray. ~] You say you are in favour of 
natives being taught through the medium of their 
own language in the first three standards ? — Yes. 

663. Have you any experience of teaching 
children through the medium of their own 
language ? — Yes. We tried teaching modern lan- 
guages. I think it is generally accepted, if you 
are teaching French and German and try to do it 
colloquially, that a man should be able thoroughly 
to speak French if he is teaching French ; and it 
seems to be to me analagous to teaching our schools 
in the first three standards. 

664. That is the opposite of what we are dealing 
with. In this country English is the language 
which is the foreign language. You are saying 
that when you teach German and French it must 
be through the medium of German and French, 
and English is the foreign language which we are 
teaching ? — Yes, but there it is the language of the 
learner. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 109 

665. You hold, as an educationalist, that that is The Rev. 
the proper system ? — I think so. °Sutton. eo ' 

666. Do you hold it only in the case of Kafir, or T , — ,_ 

Tulv 7 1908 

in any language which is the mother tongue ? — In 
any language. 

667. Chairman.] Have you any knowledge of 
the Convention which has been held at Lovedale ? 
— Yes. I saw Coadjutor-Bishop Cameron before 
he left, and I know Father Puller very well — he is 
a friend of mine — and also know Mr. Henderson 
very well. 

66S. It has been suggested to us that the Con- 
vention which has been held at Lovedale is not 
representative except of the opinion of a few 
individuals. Is that your opinion ? — I think it is, 
fairly. 

669. Mr. Levey.] You mean it is fairly represen- 
tative of the opinion of the best educationalists ? 
— Of the best educationalists sympathetic with the 
Kafir problem. 



Wednesday, 8th July, 1908. 



Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. Searle. 



PEESENT : 

Mr. Peemantlb (Chairman). 

Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



1908. 



The Rev. Simon Peter Sihlali, examined. 

670. Chairman.] Where do you reside? — At The Rev. 
Engcobo, Tembuland. Si Saif er 

671. What is your occupation ? — A native _ 
minister in connection with the Congregational uy 
Union of South Africa. 

672. You take a great interest in the education 
of the people ? — I do. 

673. Where were you educated yourself ? — I was 
educated partly at Lovedale and partly private. 



110 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 674. Have you got schools which you control in 
J1 sihiaii\ er Engcobo ? — In the districts of Engcobo, Xalanga, 



July 8, 1908, 



St. Mark's, Nqamakwe, Tembuland. 

675. How many schools have you which you 
control ? — The district of Xalanga 2, district of 
St. Mark's 2, Ngqamakwe 1, Engcobo 5. 

676. That is 10 altogether ?— Yes. 

677. Are you in chief control of these 10 schools ? 
— I am missionary superintendent of these 10 
schools. 

678. Those districts are under the Council 
system, are they not ? — Two are not— Xalanga and 
St. Mark's ; the others are. 

679. So you have experience both of Council 
and non-Council districts ? — Yes. 

680. Which system works best in your opinion ? 
Undoubtedly the Council districts. 

681. What is the advantage there ? — The first 
advantage is that in the Council schools we have 
the pick of the teachers in consequence of their 
salaries being certain. 

682. That is because of the contributions made 
by the Council to the schools ? — Being sure. 

683. What other advantages are there ? — 
Another advantage is that the Council generally 
have a Committee to assist the teachers in regard 
to attendance. 

684. And does that result in increased attend- 
ance ? — Increased attendance. 

685. It has been represented in evidence that the 
attendance improves for a time and then falls off 
again in these districts. Is that so ? — I do not 
think so. It may be true as far as Tembuland is 
concerned, but in Fingoland the attendance has 
been good — exceptionally good. 

686. And you attribute that partly to the work- 
ing of the Council system ? — Certainly. 

687. Are there any other advantages of the 
Council system as far as the education is con- 
cerned ? — I think so. In the Council system you 
are in a position to pay all your teachers a decent 
salary, whereas in the other system we are some- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. Ill 

times reluctant to make application to the Govern- The Rev. 
ment for assistant teachers, in the fear that we may ^^f 61 
not have the means to pay for the teachers. — 

688. Do you think that the people as a whole uy ' 1 
favour the spread of the Council system ? — Do you 
mean in the other districts or in the Council 
districts ? 

689. Is it popular in the Council districts ? — 
Very. 

690. And do you think that outside the Council 
districts it is likely to spread ? — It would spread 
if more information was given to the people. 

691. But is it likely, as things are, to spread to 
other districts ? — I certainly think so. 

692. And you think if it does it will produce 
good results there ? — Undoubtedly. 

693. In these schools that you have under you 
do you consult with the parents at all ? — I do not 
consult with all the parents. I generally consult 
the headmen and some of the leading people. 

694. But that, of course, you are not compelled 
to do ?— -I am not compelled to do so. 

695. And you consult them just for your own 
convenience and to get into touch with the leading 
men ? — To get into touch with them. I think that 
is the best system. 

696. Is that generally done ? — It is not generally 
done. 

697. Why is that ? — I believe in some cases where 
you have a few of the heathen population some of 
the people are not able to understand, and might 
perhaps checkmate you in the changes which you 
think for the good of the people. 

698. You do not think it is possible to do it in 
all cases ? — I think we ought to be prepared for it. 
It is coming to it, and it will certainly be the best 
thing. 

699. But it must depend on the way the educa- 
tion spreads amongst the people ? — Certainly. My 
idea is the Government should reserve certain 
areas for undenominational schools, when the 
time is ripe for it. At present the churches hold 



112 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. a ll the property of the schools, and it would not 

Simon Peter , ■ x ■ j/u *• 

sihiaii be wise to press the question. 



July 8, 1908, 



700. You consider the time is not ripe ? — It is 
not ripe yet. It may be ripe in some localities, 
but as a whole I think not. 

701. You think the question of consulting the 
leading men ought to be left to the missionaries, 
and not made compulsory ? — I should think so. 

702. Do you think where it is possible — where 
the people are sufficiently advanced to be able to 
give valuable advice — the missionaries do consult 
them ? — Yes, they do, and I think the Department 
encourages it. 

703. Do the people subscribe largely to the cost 
of education outside the Council districts ? — Yery 
little. 

704. The fees are very low ? — The fees are very 
low and they are paid very irregularly . 

705. Does that apply to Council districts too ? — 
No, not Council districts. They do not pay any 
fees ; they pay a certain rate annually. 

706. The money is better paid ? — Certainly. 

707. Because it is paid through the Council ? — 
Paid through the Council. 

708. Do you think the people are in a position 
to pay fees in the non-Council districts ? — I think 
they are. 

709. You think they might pay a rate ? — That 
would be the best way to meet difficulties. 

710. The best plan is this system really of free 
education with a rate paid ? — Free education, yes. 

711. That is the system in the Council districts ? 
—Yes. 

712. Could you give us any information as to 
the scale of fees in the schools that you are ac- 
quainted with ? — In some of the non-Council 
schools you have to pay at the rate of 2s. 6d. up to 
3s. per quarter. That is for a family of course. 

713. Does it depend on the standard ? — No, not 
upon the standard at all. It is a similar rate not 
dependent on the standard. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 113 

714. Does it depend on the size of the family, or s ^ e n ^ e e v fcer 
does it not ? — JSJo. We pay by the family whether "sSaif. ei 
the family has one child or ten. July — 1908 

715. Do you think that the education that is 
being given at the present time is doing good te 
the people ? — I think it could be improved very 
much. 

716. But do you think that it is doing good ? — 
It is doing some good, yes. 

717. To what standards do they go in those 
schools that you are acquainted with?— "Well, in 
the Council schools, and especially in Fingoland, 
they go as far as Standard VI. 

718. Then there is a considerable number of chil- 
dren that go up to Standard VI. in Fingoland ? — At 
my own school at Ezolo, in Fingoland, we pass more 
than 20 children annually in Standard VI. and 
about 25 in Standard V. 

719. But in non-Council districts they do not go 
so far ? — I hardly do think, as far as I know, in 
the Transkei in the non- Council schools you have 
any children taking Standard V. If they are there 
are very few schools. 

720. Do you find that children make as rapid 
progress in the higher standards as in the lower 
standards ? — I think when they reach the higher 
standards the progress is better than in the lower 
standards. That is, of course, my own personal 
opinion and experience. 

721. What age are they when they get to Stan- 
dard VI. in your experience ? — There are some 
cases of children passing Standard VI. when they 
are 13, but those are exceptional cases. 

722. As a general rule how old are they ? — As 
a general rule they pass Standard VI. when they 
are 14 or 15. 

723. And you say that they are making more 
rapid progress than they were a few years before ? 
— That they are in lower standards. That is my 
experience. 

724. In what language are the children taught 
in the schools that you are acquainted with ? — 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. I 



114 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Eev. Well, they are taught in English. They are taught 
bl ^ihMi ter English with English as the medium of instruc- 

725. Does that apply to the children in the 
lowest standards or sub-standards ? — Yes. 

726. If they do not know any English to start 
with how is it possible? — That is just the diffi- 
culty. 

727. It must consist in object lessons ? — It is in 
object lessons, and also teaching the children to 
read short words. 

728. In arithmetic, for instance. In what 
language are they taught arithmetic ? — Arithmetic 
is taught in English. 

729. From the first ? — From the very first. 

730. But is not that very difficult with the 
children knowing no English when they come to 
school ? — I think that is rather a fault of the 
system, which I am not in sympathy with. Of 
course in aiithmetic you have certain difficulties 
to consider. For instance the words indicating 
numbers are difficult. Take the number 555 : in 
Kafir you have to say, " amakulu amahlanu 
anamashumi amahlanu anesihlanu," so to teach 
arithmetic in Kafir it would be really very cumber- 
some. That is the only objection I see to that. 

731. Is arithmetic nowhere taught, as far as you 
know, in Kafir ? — Not to my knowledge. I 
believe it is in Basutoland, where you have a 
different system to that in vogue in the Colony. 

732. When the children come to school at first, 
about what age are they ?— I generally recommend 
children to be sent to school at about 5 or 6 years. 

733. Do they know any English before coming 
to school ?— They know no English whatsoever. 

734. Do they hear English spoken in their homes 
at all ? — They never hear it in their homes. 

735. Even after they have been at school ? — Yes. 

736. But you begin immediately to teach them 
English and arithmetic through the medium of 
English ? — Through the medium of English. 

737. Does the inspector approve of that ? — He 
approves of that ; in fact you will find the in- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 115 

spector seldom examines them in Kafir at all, o The Rfv. 

. -^ n n . ■ ,-1 t ..t Simon Peter 

inasmuch as the inspectors themselves, with a sihiaii. 
very few exceptions, do not know any Kafir. Jul — igog 

738. You say with very few exceptions they do u y 
not know Kafir ? — Inspectors McLaren and Bennie 
are very good in Kafir, but in many cases it will 
happen the inspector will ask to have an English 
word translated info Kafir and when the child 
gives the ^translation he will ask the next child 
whether that is correct, and pass on to the other 
one, and ultimately ask the teacher whether it is 
correct. 

739. When he does not know himself ? — He does 
not know a bit. 

740. The teachers, I suppose, are all Kafirs, so 
they all know the language ? — They are all Kafirs. 

741. Have they all got a thorough knowledge of 
the Kafir language ? — Some of them have a decent 
knowledge of Kafir. I would not call them 
excellent Kafir speakers, they themselves not 
having been properly taught Kafir perhaps. 

742. The work in the elementary schools, I 
suppose, consists mainly of reading, writing and 
arithmetic? — Reading, writing and arithmetic, 
yes. 

743. That is the first standards ? — In the first 
standards. 

744. Then gradually history and geography are 
introduced ? — Yes, in the higher standards. 

745. That is entirely in accordance with the 
standards of European schools ? — Not entirely. 
You have, of course, what you call the elementary 
course and also the high school course, which 
differ considerably. 

746. You have no high school course in the Tran- 
skei ? — Not only the Transkei but also in the Cape 
Colony you have no high school standard, with the 
exception. I believe, of some classes at Lovedale 
and Zonnebloem, and even there I doubt. I will 
tell you later on. 

747. But the elementary standards are the same 
in the Transkei as in European schools in the 
Colonv ? — Yes. 



July 8, 1908. 



116 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 743. The subjects with regard to history and 
"sihiaif. er geography are also the same ?— As far as my know- 
ledge goes the elementary course is the same for 
all. 

749. It is sometimes said that often in arithmetic 
questions are set which are familiar to Europeans, 
especially in Europe, but which are not familiar 
to the natives in the Transkei. Do you think this 
is so ? — Not to my knowledge, except in the point 
of measures that are used in Europe and are not 
used in this Colony ; for instance you will hear 
them speaking of millimetres, and so on. 

750. Farthings ? — Yes. The natives are familiar 
with them ; they are even in the Colony too. 

751. But on the question of the medium of in- 
struction you feel it is difficult to teach from the 
first in English ? — It is difficult from the first 
to teach in English. I take it that English should 
be taught through Kafir as the medium. 

752. That is in the earliest standards ? — In the 
earliest standards. 

753. Do you think that would mean a better 
knowledge of English ? — I certainly do think so. 
Then the children would be able to understand 
what they were doing. 

754. Do you think it would improve the general 
education ? — It would improve the general educa- 
tion, and it would also give the children a chance 
of making quicker progress than they are doing at 
present. 

755. How far do you think Kafir ought to be 
made the medium ? Would you have it the 
medium all through the standards or only up to 
some particular standards ? — Of course, as repre- 
sentative of the Convention, I may say there was 
a difference of opinion, but it was ultimately 
decided it should be throughout all the standards— 
concurrently with English of course — that English 
should be taught as a language from the very 
beginning and the children should be allowed to 
pass their standards in Kafir. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 117 

756. You have just said it would be difficult to s . The ^ v - 
teach arithmetic through Kafir ? — It would. I say ™ihiaii. er 



so ; it would be very difficult ; it would be very 
very cumberous. 

757. But still you think it would be better ? — Up 
to a certain standard it would. If you wished to 
tell a Kafir now about a hundred thousand or 
million or billion you would not be able to, because 
you would not find the words for it. 

758. There are no such w^ords ? — No. In fact I 
think that is so with all languages of uncivilized 
people — that they cannot count up. 

759. Do you think the natives as a whole would 
be in favour of this change ? — Do you mean to 
teach English through Kafir as a medium ? 

760. Yes.— Perhaps not ; but I certainly do think 
that it is the best. 

761. You say perhaps not. Have you any 
reasons for thinking they would not be in favour 
of it ? — Sometimes the natives want a thing the 
same as Europeans, whereas in many cases it is 
not very good. 

762. The text-books that are used in the schools 
are naturally English ? — Yes. 

763. Are there Kafir text-books ? — Yery few. 

764. Are they good ? — Well, the few there are I 
think are moderately good. 

765. Do you think it would be possible to get 
better ones written ? — They could be written — that 
is, of course, if there was encouragement. 

766. Who could write them? Could you get 
them written by educated natives or by Europeans? 
— I think there are natives who are competent to 
do that, and there are Europeans who could also 
do the same. 

767. Do you think they could be written if 
there was a real encouragement for the writing of 
them ? — I think so. 

768. What religious teaching is given in the 
schools you are acquainted with ? — I am sorry to 
say very little in the mission schools. 

769. What is the reason of that ? — Where the 
schools are properly supervised the missionaries 



July 8, 1908. 



118 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. are always insisting that there should he some 

Simon Peter -i • • • . i. • • 1 j i ji , 

sihiaii. religious instruction given, but where they are not 
Jul s~ 1908 P ro P er ly supervised the teachers simply stick to 
' u y ' ' the syllabus of the Department. 

770. And that, of course, does not cover 
religious teaching at all ? — It does not. 

771. Do you think it is a satisfactory thing 
that religion should be left out in this way? — I 
think it is very dangerous that it should. Some 
religious instruction should be given, although of 
course there might be differences of opinion as to 
what form it should take. * 

772. Would it not be possible for the inspectors 
to inspect in religious teaching ? — I see no reason 
why they should not. Native parents never 
object to religion. 

773. Are they in favour of it ? — Oh, certainly. 
That is, of course, simple Bible teaching. 

774. Is there any teaching in the laws of health 
in the schools? — Not to my knowledge. There 
may be in the missionary institutions, but not in 
the other schools. 

775. Would it be an advantage to introduce such 
teaching ? — I certainly do think so. 

776. Do you think it would be advisable to 
introduce it? — Gradually. Of course you would 
have to train the teachers. If they themselves 
have not been taught the laws of health, it is 
impossible for them to teach others. 

777. I understand you to say that it will be 
desirable to introduce it, and the way to do that 
would be to begin with the teachers themselves ? — 
With the teachers themselves. 

778. With regard to manual training, is there 
manual teaching in all the schools ? — You mean in 
all the elementary schools ? 

779. Yes ?— Hardly any that I know of. 

780. Does it go on in regard to ordinary wood- 
work in the schools and needlework for the girls ? 
— Needlework for the girls in all schools that have 
an attendance of 48, but not others ; in the other 
schools there is no needlework. 



8, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 119 

781. No needlework in schools under 48 ? — With The Rev. 

it -j -i n a o Simon Peter 

an attendance below 48. sihiaii. 

782. And woodwork for the boys ? — It is not in 
any of my schools. I have a school at Ezolo with u y 
an attendance of 175, but there is no woodwork at 
all. 

783. So there is no manual work of any sort or 
kind ?— No. 

784. Do you think that is satisfactory? — I do 
not think it is satisfactory. I think something 
more in the line of spadework would be more 
advantageous than woodwork, for the simple 
reason that in the case of woodwork it would 
mean a lot of expense and want of proper super- 
vision, whereas with spadework it could be easily 
arranged without any expenditure. 

785. You think spadework would be an advan- 
tage ?— Certainly. 

786. In what way would it be an advantage ? — 
In this way. There is any amount of ground in 
the Transkeian Territories. The Government could 
make provision for a small piece of ground in 
connection with each school where the pupils 
could practise it under the supervision of the 
teachers, whereas in woodwork the. teachers them- 
selves have sometimes not been trained in dealing 
with woodwork. The wood itself would have to 
be bought, and that would mean expense to the 
Government. 

787. What I want to get at is, what good you 
think this spadework would do to the children ? — 
It is of more advantage than woodwork, seeing 
they mostly have to deal with ground. They have 
to live on it. With woodwork they would only 
give practice to the eye without their actually 
having to live on that. 

788. I do not want to compare spadework with 
woodwork, but you think it would do the children 
good ? — I think it would do them a world of good. 

789. In what way ? — It would train them to the 
use of the spade even after they had left school. 

790. And would train them In habits of discip- 
line ? — Yes. 



120 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

si^on^Tte- ^' ^ n( ^ ** W0U ^ ma ^ e them better for working 
^miaH. er their own ground and for working other people's 

July T 1908 g r0UIld ?— JUBt SO. 

792. Do you think the present provision for the 
training of teachers is satisfactory ? — Most unsatis- 
factory. 

793. Why so ? —In the first place it appears that 
it has been the policy of the Department that all 
natives should be teachers. 

794. How is that ? — That is the case, because 
when children pass Standard YI. they have no 
other alternative course to take but the normal 
course. 

795. You mean the Government does not give 
grants for anything above Standard -VI. -except for 
the normal course ? — Except for the normal course. 
Then even for the normal course there are certain 
things which prevent those who would go in for 
it. For example, I pointed out some children pass 
Standard YI. at 12 and 13. Now, according to the 
regulations, no child can be received into the 
normal course unless he or she has passed the age 
of 14. 

796. So that there is a break ? — So there is no 
provision made for these children who pass 
Standard YI. at 12 and 13. 

797. Is that the only criticism you have against 
the present system ? — Well, I may say that I think 
the inspections are too many. There are too many 
inspections of schools. 

798. At the ordinary schools, not only the 
training schools ? — Of ordinary schools. 

799. Do you mean there are too many ordinary 
inspections or too many inspections in special 
subjects ? — There are inspections when children 
are being examined, and then there are inspections 
of the ladies taking charge of certain departments, 
and then you have surprise visits and all that 
kind of thing. 

800. Eut is not that very much wanted in some 
schools ? — It may be wanted in some schools, but 
at the same time the thing may be overdone, 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 121 

because the teachers and children are always The Rev. 
afraid of the inspector turning up, and are not Sl ™miS ter 
doing what would be the normal work. — 

801. Do you think they would be doing better uy ' 
work if they were not afraid the inspectors would 
come ? — Just so. They simply do the work in 
order to meet the eye of the inspector, instead of 
doing their regular work. Then again children 

are not allowed by the inspector to pass on from 
one standard to the other till the inspector comes 
round and says, "Well, such-and-such a child 
should pass on," instead of allowing that to be in 
the discretion of the teacher. 

802. But are the teachers themselves advanced 
enough to be trusted to do that work ? — I think a 
good many are to be trusted, in fact I thinn almost 
all of them could do that. 

803. The Government grants do not depend on 
the standards in which the children are ? — There is 
hardly any fixed rule. For instance there is a 
regulation saying a teacher who is certificated can 
begin at. £24, and an uncertificated teacher begins 
at £20. Now I think several teachers who are 
certified do not get the £24 ; and when I ask for 
the grants, and say such-and-such a teacher is 
certificated, I am told that provision can only be 
made for £20, although the teacher is certificated. 

804. The grant is paid for the teacher, and not 
for the pupil ? — Yes, it is given to a teacher and 
not a school. 

805. And you think on the whole the teachers 
are able to decide whether to promote children or 
not ? — I certainly do think so. Then there is 
another regulation which I should like to draw 
your attention to, which is only of late years, and 
that is to the effect that children should present a 
two-thirds attendance for the whole year in order 
to be inspected ; and this falls very heavily on 
some children, especially in native schools. 

806. How is that ? — Some people have no oxen 
— some of them are children of widows who have 
no oxen — and when the ploughing season comes 



122 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the assistance given by the children to those who 

Simon Peter i if x. - x. x. x.-u x. 

sihiaii. have oxen is or great assistance to the parents. 
Jul 7 1908 ^^' ^*' ie y ma, ke a little money? — By assisting 
'those with oxen they are assisted by them in 
return. 

808. That results in their not attending for two- 
thirds of the year ? — Just so, and that is the only 
chance they have of learning manual labour. 

809. The attendance is good in Fingoland ? — 
Very good indeed, 

810. The children do attend when they can as a 
rule ? — They do attend when they can. 

811. But you think there is no reason for this 
regulation ? — In Fingoland the teachers are solidly 
against the regulation. 

812. Is it not a fact that there is a very great 
demand for teachers? — There is a great demand 
for teachers, but I am afraid that the supply is not 
equal to the demand, and the reason for that is the 
bad wages ; the teachers are poorly paid. 

813. Does not that mean some of the teachers 
begin teaching before they have finished their 
course of training? — A good many finish their 
course of training and get certificates, and they 
leave the Department and get better paid work. 

814. Do not some take to teaching before they 
have finished their course at the training school ? 
— Yes, they do. They take the normal course 
because they have no other course, and not because 
they have a desire to be teachers. 

815. I mean when they are going through the 
normal course they become teachers sometimes 
before they have finished the course ? — Just so. 

816. Does that happen? — It often happens. 

817. Those teachers are uncertificated ? — Yes. 

818. Are they well qualified in their work ? — I 
do not think so, but at the same time I take it 
if there was an alternative course a good many of 
them would go for it and then at the end pass the 
teachers' examination. That was the system in 
olden days. 

819. If you took teachers of that kind do you 
think they would be fit to decide whether the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 123 

children should be promoted or not — teachers who T ^ Rev. 
have not passed their full course ? — I think some "smiaif 61 
of the best teachers we have got were under the Jul — l9Q8 
old system where you had no three years' course. 
I was also one of those teachers. 

820. You mean to say if you had an alternative 
course and they went through that they might be 
good teachers? — They might be good teachers 
simply for this reason that they have had a better 
education than those who have taken the normal 
course. 

821. But if you have a teacher who has had 
none of the higher training, who has stopped in 
the middle of the normal course, he is not likely 
to be a good teacher ? — Not likely. 

822. Then is that teacher capable of deciding 
whether to promote pupils to higher standards or 
not ? — Perhaps not, but the rule applies to those 
who are certificated. They are not allowed the 
distinction. 

823. And you are in favour of a separate course 
for education above the Sixth Standard ? — Certainly. 

824. That it should be quite separate from the 
normal course ? — Certainly. 

825. Would they go on to the college course, or 
do you think the time has not come for that ? — I 
think the time is ripe for a college education to 
natives. 

826. But if there are very few who are going 
above the Sixth Standard except in the normal 
course, who would go to the college ? — I am not 
sure there are a very few. A good many would 
go who do not now, because there is no alternative 
course. The only way they had after passing the 
Sixth Standard was to take the normal course, 
whether they were to be teachers or not, and they 
seemed to dislike that and would not stay longer 
at the school. 

827. Supposing you had a college course and 
had a fair number of natives who were graduates 
in this country ? — Do you mean graduates in the 
European way — taking University degrees ? 



124 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 828. Yes. What would there be for them to do ? 
S ™mM? er — 1 believe there is plenty of work amongst their 
~~ s people if they are men of resource. 

829. What work ? — For instance, for those who 
have matriculated, if they could serve indentures 
to attorneys, there is plenty of work in that line ; 
and some would be able afterwards to enter the 
medical profession. 

830. Do you think it would be a good thing to 
have native doctors? — Certainly, amongst their 
own people. I do not mean to compete with 
Europeans. 

831. And clergymen ? — I think so. 

832. Do you think it would be of advantage to 
have some of the chiefs highly educated ? — I think 
it would be the best thing that could be done, so 
as to draw their people into the ways of civiliza- 
tion. 

833. Do you think that the Education Depart- 
ment is in touch with the circumstances of the 
education in the Transkei ?— I do not think so at 
all. 

834. Do you think it would be of advantage to 
have an officer, either in the Transkei or near the 
frontier, who would have more special control of 
the native education ? — Well, I have not studied 
that question. I was asked the same thing at the 
Convention. I did not like to express my views, 
as I had not seriously considered it. 

835. The Education Department has all its in- 
spectors in the Territories ? — Yes. 

836. And it ought to be in thorough touch with 
the circumstances ? — I am afraid the inspectors 
hardly have any time to attend to it. 

837. They are travelling about the country con- 
stantly ? — Yes, but they seldom meet the people. 
When they visit a locality they only examine the 
children and see the teachers, and they are off 
again. 

838. So you think if there were more inspectors, 
and they had more time, the Department would 
perhaps be more in touch with the circumstances 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 125 

of the people ? — I think so. If the inspectors went The Rev. 
round and told the people beforehand, a good many ^f 6 
things might be rectified that they found wrong — 

& . . & , -, J ° July 8, 1908. 

m certain schools. 

839. I take it, then, you think the Education 
Department is not properly in touch with the 
circumstances ; but you do not know exactly how 
it could be improved ? — I do not think it is 
properly in touch : but I have not studied the 
question of how it could be improved. 

840. Colonel Stanford.'] You recognize the ad- 
vantage of having inspections ? — By inspectors ? 

841. Yes ?— Certainly, I do. 

842. How often is it the usual practice to have 
inspections of the mission schools at present ? — By 
the regular inspector who inspects the standards . 
it is generally once a year, and of late it has been 
oftener than once a year. 

843. In addition to the yearly inspection, how 
often do you have additional inspections by 
specially trained teachers, such as the sewing 
mistresses ? — That is also once a year. 

844. So that ordinarily it would be once a year, 
and occasionally rather more ? — Yes.- 

845. Do you consider that is about right as to 
numbers of inspections ?— I take it that the lady 
inspector is hardly necessary. I think an ordinary 
inspector who takes an interest in the work 
could offer his criticisms when there at the time, 
without having an additional lady inspector. 
For example, I have bought sewing materials at 
the recommendation of one lady inspector, and 
then the other lady inspector came round and said 
these were simply worthless, and they had to be 
sold again. 

846. That was just a difference of view between 
two inspectors, but on the broad principle is it not 
better to have inspection of your sewing work by 
some one who is really competent in that line ? 
Is not that better for the children themselves ? — 
Yes, perhaps it would be. 



July 8, 1908. 



126 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Eey 847. And seeing how infrequent these inspec- 

Simon Peter . . -. -, °-, i i -i j i • • . 

sihiaii. tions really are, why should they, m your opinion, 
have the effect of detrimentally affecting the 
teaching in the schools ? — Besides the annual visit 
of the inspector there are other visits which he 
makes, which are surprise visits, and then when 
he comes he simply looks round and sees things 
are in order and asks certain questions and passes 
on again ; and all the time the teacher and children 
are in constant terror of being taken by surprise 
by the inspectors. 

848. Why should this terror exist if the schools 
are properly conducted ? — I do not know, but it is 
so. If the inspectors were more in sympathy with 
the teachers and the work of the school such a 
terror would not exist. 

849. Would you say the inspections of such 
experienced men as Mr. Bennie and Mr. McLaren 
are regarded in fear and trembling by the teachers 
and pupils ? — Mr. McLaren and Mr. Bennie are 
exceptional inspectors. They are considered 
amongst the natives as the most sympathetic, 
and those who are most in touch with the work, 
but the inspectors are not all like them. 

850. Do you recognize generally the great benefit 
that the native people have derived from the 
system of teaching which they have had in the 
past in the Territories and in the Colony too ? — I 
recognize that it has done much good, but at the 
same time there is much room for improvement. 

851. And the improvement, practically, that you 
recommend to the Committee is that there should 
be teaching through the medium of Kafir ? — Just 
so. 

852. But I am not quite clear as to what your 
view there really is. Do you think it is practicable 
and wise that the medium of instruction should be 
Kafir right through all the standards, or do you 
think it should be limited to the lower standards ? 
—I take it that Kafir should be taught the children 
just as soon as they enter school — the reading of 
Kafir — and those children should be examined in 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 127 

Kafir. English should also be taught, but how far The Rev. 
is another matter. I believe there is a difference Sl ^S^f* 
of opinion, but of course on that point I come as a — ' 
representative of the Convention. 

853. It is quite allowable to tell us what took 
place at the Convention and also to state your own 
personal experience ? — I would not pit my per- 
sonal experience against the collective opinion of 
the Convention. My own opinion was that Kafir 
should be compulsory up to Standard III., and 
after that it should be mostly English. 

854. Is it, in your opinion, possible really to give 
a child a sound education in the higher standards 
by using Kafir as the medium of instruction ? — I 
am very doubtful. The Kafirs would have to coin 
words. In the languages of all barbarous people 
there are certain words they have no equivalent 
for. 

855. Then as to the teaching of Kafir, what is the 
course you recommend ? — I recommend as soon as 
a child enters school, the first thing it should be 
taught is Kafir. In my experience I find a child 
can pick up more Kafir more readily than it picks 
up English, just because when it learns Kafir it 
learns a language that it understands. I know it 
from my own experience. The first thing I learnt 
was Dutch. That was of course when the schools 
were under the various Societies. Dutch to me 
was a spoken language from childhood, and in 
consequence of that I could pick it up more readily. 
I could pick up English then more readily, because 
Dutch and English are allied languages. 

856. Yes, but as regards the Kafir, do you wish 
it to be taught from the grammatical point of 
view, because, as you and I both know, Kafir is 
acquired by a child in a perfect manner ; there are 
no grammatical mistakes it makes at all in 
speaking ? — Just so. 

857. So what is the special teaching you want in 
Kafir ? — Eeading in Kafir and answering certain 
questions in Kafir, and understanding what this 
and that means — translations from Kafir into 
English and English into Kafir. 



128 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 858. That would really be the combined study of 
S Thia!f er both English and Kafir ?— Just so. 

— 859. With regard to the instruction in spadework 

' you advise, at what age would you recommend 
that that should be undertaken in respect of the 
children attending school ? — I put the boys about 
12. It all depends on the development of the 
child. Some children look like 14 when they are 13 ; 
others again look like children of 9 when they are 
12, and they are able to use the spade. 

860. It has been represented to the Committee 
that most of the schools are placed on high ridges, 
where the ground is stony and not suitable for 
cultivation. Is that so ? — That is so, and that is 
mostly at the recommendation of the inspectors 
themselves. That is why, at our suggestion, all 
the Government schools will have to be unde- 
nominational, and for that reason provision should 
be made for them, and in the meantime such lands 
could be utilized to teach the children spade work. 

861. That is, the lands for this teaching would 
be at some distance from the school as at present 
conducted ? — As at present conducted, because as 
things are now one little school rises here and 
another rises there, which is because they are all 
denominational schools. Every sensible man sees 
that that is detrimental to the best interests of the 
natives, and for that reason it is best to have 
undenominational schools. 

862. Therefore you favour undenominational 
control ? — I certainly favour that, but the schools 
are the property now of the churches, and the 
churches might resent any interference by the 
Government. 

863. How would you establish such undenomi- 
national control amongst the natives ? — I do not 
think in the Transkei we would have much 
difficulty where we have councils, whereas in the 
Colony, where we have no councils, the thing is 
almost unworkable. 

864. Your idea would be to make the District 
Council the school committee for the district ? — 
Just so. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 129 

865. And are you of opinion that the men now The Rev. 
serving on those Councils are capable of exercising * sSjan. ter 
effective control ? — I think so in certain localities. } — 
Take Fingoland. You could not have better 
councils there than you have now, where it is the 
tax-payers who have to elect ; whereas in Tembu- 

land they do not always have the most intelligent 
men, because they are the headmen really, and I 
believe that is one of the reasons why, in the 
Colony — and also in some of the districts in the 
Transkei where you have no councils — they object. 
They say they will not be led, and for that 
reason they are opposing the councils. 

866. That is one of the reasons ? — That is one of 
the reasons. 

867. Is it your opinion that the council system 
has been advantageous to the education in the 
Transkei ? — Most certainly ; and not only in edu- 
cation, but in every way. You have better roads. 
You have ways of coping with cattle diseases — 
dips, and so on. You sometimes pay 2s. 6d. up to 
3s. a quarter for a family, which is more than 10s. 
a year only for school rates, whereas where you 
have the council system you only pay 10s. as a 
school and road rate, and it makes other improve- 
ments too. 

868. Do you think in respect of education as well 
as in other matters the existence of the General 
Council is beneficial ? — Undoubtedly. 

869. Do you prefer this existing system with the 
District Councils, from which the members of the 
General Council are taken, to the abolition of the 
General Council and throwing back the work on 
the District Councils only ? — I think by having a 
District Council you come more in touch with the 
districts, whereas with only a General Council 
its work would not readily be seen in each locality. 

870. It has been suggested to us that there is 
some doubt as to whether the General Council is a 
necessary thing at all, and whether you could not 
do without it and have District Councils only, with 
no General Council ? — My opinion is you should 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. K 



130 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

s^on^ter naYe a General Council, because you co-operate 
^siSau. er with all the people together, whereas with only 



July 8. 1908. 



District Councils your various items are not 
coherent one with the other. It may be more 
expensive having a District Council and also a 
General Council, but by having both I think you 
do better. 

871. Are you satisfied with the work being done 
by the industrial institutions established by the 
General Council ? — Well, I have not much know- 
ledge of it, but J am inclined to think that the 
moneys voted there might as well have been 
voted to certain institutions in the districts 
where those councils are, rather than as at present. 
I think it would be cheaper. I think a lot of 
money is being spent in these institutions as they 
now exist. 

872. I am not quite clear yet on the point where 
you stated the Education Department is not 
sufficiently in touch with the native people. In 
what respects is the system lacking ? — You mean 
the system itself ? 

873. Yes? — Well, I have brought forward certain 
points. The first is this : as things are now, when 
the inspector comes he only sees the teacher. 

874. He does not hold meetings with the people ? 
— Just so. In the next place, I said this present 
educational system was followed in this way, that 
it made every native a teacher, whether he liked 
it or not ; there was no alternative course for 
those who, perhaps, wanted to be interpreters. 
When a child reached Standard VI. he was simply 
drafted, willingly or unwillingly, to take the 
normal, and even then an injustice was done to 
the child, because, according to the regulations of 
the normal course, it is only when he has reached 
the age of 14 that he may enter the normal course. 
Children know they have no alternative ; they 
simply have to wait. As a consequence, I know 
several children — whether with the connivance of 
their teachers or not — have simply said they are 
14, when thev are not. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 131 

875. In order to go on with the normal course '? The Rev. 

-V" Simon Peter 
* eS. Sihlali. 

876. Mr, T. Searle.] There would not be very - i9Qg 
many at that age passing Standard VI. ? — There u y 

are a good many. For instance, in my day there 
were not many, but we who have had some educa- 
tion send our children to school at a very early 
age. I know my own children at Lovedale had to 
take another course, because if they wanted to 
enter the normal course they could not. 

877. Colonel Stanford.'] Do you consider, in 
respect of higher education at the present time, 
your requirement is really a high school course ? — 
Even if you had a college it could not be exactly 
college work, because that is generally matricula- • 
tion work and upwards. You would not have 
many candidates able to pass the matriculation in 
order to take the proper college course. 

878. Your desire would be that the way should 
be open for tho higher examinations ? — Just so, 
and encouragement given in that direction by the 
Government. 

879. Then you are in favour of this movement 
for the Inter- State Native College at Lovedale ? — 
Most certainly. 

880. Chairman.'] Do you think the natives 
would be prepared to pay for the secondary 
education which you propose ? — I think a great 
many w r ould who wanted the higher education. 
If they want it they must certainly pay for it. 

881. Colonel Stanford,] Do you know r of native 
students from your part going to negro colleges in 
America ? — A good many left some years ago — 
some from the Xalanga district, and others from 
Idutywa and Griqualand East, and a good many 
from the Colony. Some have returned, but the 
majority have not returned yet. 

882. Have you had any opportunity of judging 
the attainments of those who have returned ? — I 
have not seen any of them, but 1 have seen the 
letters of a few T , where some were Bachelors of 
Divinity and Masters of Arts, but on reading the 



132 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. letters I doubted very much whether they had 
Sll sihia^ ter even reached the matriculation standard of the 

Jul 7 1008 Ca P e University. 

883. Do you think the establishment of this 
Inter- State College will be likely to check the 
movement of these students to America? — Most 
certainly. If they can get something equivalent 
in their own country they will stay ; they will be 
satisfied. Otherwise, they will think an injustice 
is being done to them. If you train them in their 
own country they will never lose touch with their 
own people. 

884. I take it, from what you state, generally r 
you are in favour of education for your people ? 

. — Certainly. It is not only for their good, but it 
is for the benefit of the SI ate. 

885. How so ? — The more you educate a native 
the more you bring him into touch with European 
methods. He knows the government of the 
country by the Europeans is for his benefit. The 
more you educate a native the more productive 
you make him to the State. Everything that he 
uses has been taxed ; he pays more taxes to the 
State. Not only that, but in any locality where 
you have natives who are in sympathy with the 
Europeans the other natives are always afraid of 
doing any wrong, because they take that native 
to be an European, and they know he is in, 
sympathy with the Government ; so that the 
educated native is worth a thousand policemen. 
He is unpaid, and his influences are to make the 
natives follow what is advocated by the people 
who are in authority. 

886. Do you think that our education and our 
civilization, so far as your observation goes, make 
the native work more than he did ? — Well, 
necessity makes him work more. Now that he 
has more education and more wants to satisfy 
they force him to go to work, and by constantly 
going to work he loves work ; so that it is not 
only the missionary agencies that have made 
natives to love work, but necessity comj)els them 
— their coming into contact with the Europeans. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 133 

887. From your observation where you live, has The Rev. 
the output of labour much increased of late years ? Sir siM^f er 
— Well, up to a certain period it had increased, and — 

I am inclined to think there is no district that 
produces more labourers than the district of 
Eiigcobo. It has a larger native population than 
any other district in the Territories. 

888. Mr. Levey.] Uneducated natives ?— Yes. It 
is only of late that a good many of them have 
returned from Johannesburg and other labour 
€entres on account of not being able to get work, 
but that is no fault of their own. 

889. Talking about manual labour, I take it from 
what you say that manual labour takes a secon- 
dary part in your schools ; in fact there is very 
little manual labour at all ?— Hardly any. 

890. Do you think it is a good thing to bring up 
all these native children and teach them nothing 
but book-learning, with no manual labour ? What 
will be the effect in the future ? — I do not think it 
is a good thing at all, for the simple reason that if 
you teach them book-learning only they will not 
all be teachers and ministers. Most of them have 
to live from the soil, and for that reason it is 
necessary that they should be taught spade-work. 

891. You know the old native saying that if you 
want an ox to pull well you must put him to work 
young, and if you train him when he is old he is 
no good ? — Yes. 

892. Do you think training the boys with books, 
and trusting to their wants when they are 18 or 19, 
will be sufficient to make them work, if they have 
not been trained to it ? — It is not that the mis- 
sionary societies want it. 

893. The missionary societies have done great 
work, but that is not the point. I want to bring 
this point before you strongly. Do you not think 
it is imperative the natives should be taught 
manual work — agricultural work— which we have 
to deal with ? — Yes. 

894. Do you think it is possible to adopt a 
svstem like this : In your locality you have 



134 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. perhaps live or six different schools. If the 

Simon Peter tn j. ■■ ' n *i xix • -e 

sihiaii. Government or Council were to select a piece of 
Julr — 1908 good ground under water, and the different 
schools, under the charge of their teachers, were to 
go, say once a week, to this place and there be 
taught agricultural work by a properly qualified 
man, do you think that would be a good thing ? — 
If it could be carried out. 

895. Do you not think, further, that you might 
improve the status of teachers, and give them a 
higher salary if they passed an examination in 
agriculture or arboriculture ; that is to say, no 
teacher should get a certificate unless he is able to 
use a spade and show with his own hands how to 
cultivate the soil — something like the system in 
Germany and France ? — I should not say he should 
not get a certificate but I would certainly 
encourage this. Talking about his not getting a 
certificate without this knowledge, you might not 
have the school to train him. 

896. You know they are teaching fencing, and a 
Master of Arts is himself planting stumps and 
teaching the boys, and they are starting spade- 
work ? — A very good thing. 

897. Supposing teachers could qualify at a place 
like Lovedale in the future? — I would certainly 
encourage a good manv teachers to do that. 

898. And improve their position by giving them 
higher salaries ? — Yes. 

899. You say there are sewing inspectors. A re 
there music inspectors in the Transkei ? — Yes. 

900. Do you think that is absolutely necessary ; 
need we have music inspectors at present ? — I do 
not think so. 

901. You think it would be far better if these 
girls were taught household work — I mean some- 
thing simple ? Now in regard to sewing, is it 
necessary to have ladies going round? Cannot 
the ordinary inspector see what plain sewing is r 
because it is not advanced work ? — I would sug- 
gest any inspector with commonsense would be 
sufficient. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 135 

902. And therefore it is a waste of money The Rev. 
sending round these inspectors ? — Yes. Sll si°hi a if. ter 

903. Have you not heard many of the civilized, — 
respectable natives complain that our system of 
education is ruining the children ? I can give you 
instances. You know yourself some leading men 

in your district. I know men in the Tsolo district. 
They say, " You told us to send our children to 
school," when you complain of young men riding 
about the country doing nothing and eating up 
their inheritance. Do not the people complain 
that sending them to school has had this effect, 
that whereas if they had been kept at home they 
would have been able to plough and work on the 
farms, they are now doing nothing ? — I have heard 
that complaint, but I have always differed from 
it, for this reason, that a great many parents when 
they have two or three children going to school 
will become English and Dutch, and be above 
manual labour. 

904. They will not work ?— Just so. That is the 
fault of the parents. 

905. But then if we trained these children at 
these institutions in agricultural work, so that 
when they left school and came back to their 
parents they could show them how to plant fruit 
trees and use a spade, would not they become 
useful?— Yes, but the parents must assist the 
teachers. They seem to imagine the schools are 
factories for turning them out proficient. 

906. Some parents are uneducated, and they 
have not had the experience of the whites. With 
regard to District Councils, the question was put 
to me several times in the Transkeian Territories. 
Some districts say, :c We have our District Council 
and contribute so much money to the Council, * 
and our money is being taken by a neighbouring 
district, and we prefer to manage our own Council 
and spend our money in our district " ? — I have 
not heard it expressed in that way by natives. 
It was mostly Europeans who wanted to interfere 
in the work of the Council. 



136 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Thursday, 9th July, 1908. 



PEESENT : 

Mr. Feemantle (Chairman). 

Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Kooy. 



Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. SearJe 



The Rev. Simon Peter Sihlali, further examined. 

s^onm'er 907 ' Mr ' T ' Searle >~\ Were J ou at the Convention 
' "smiaH. ei at Debe Nek in January ? — No, I was not present. 
jui 9~ 1908 ^08. ^ 0U k now the resolutions they passed there ? 
' — No, I have not seen them. I have heard of 
them. I have had a copy promised me. 

909. One of the resolutions they passed was in 
favour of having local committees to act with the 
missionaries in the mission schools. You say you 
think they are not ripe for it in the Transkei ? — I 
am prepared to give evidence in the Colony, as I 
have had some experience as superintendent in the 
Colony too. 

910. Do you think in the Colony they are ripe 
for that step ? — They are ripe for it in the Colony 
to a certain extent in certain districts, but even 
now, as things are, the Government does not 
oppose that. The Government only recognizes the 
missionary superintendent. He may appoint any 
committee he chooses to act with him. Then the 
contention is this that the superintendent should 
not be solely responsible to the Superintendent 
General of Education, but that there should be a 
committee recognized by law. The principle of the 

'thing is right, but I think when it is carried into 
practice, in the existing state of our schools, it is 
impracticable. May I explain why I say it is 
impracticable ? As things now are, all our native 
schools do not belong to the people just like 
European schools, but they are held in chapels 
which are vested in certain districts If you are 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 137 

to give local committees such powers, people not The Rev. 
belonging to any particular society might be mem- ' 'siSaif. ei 
bers of a committee, and might want to oust the ^ — l9Q8 
authorities in whom the property was vested. 

911. Another resolution they passed there was 
in favour of having some sort of board for rating 
the parents for school fees — some modified system 
based on the council system. Do you know any 
reason why the council system cannot be made 
general? — Some of the objections that are raised 
against the council system are these. The natives 
in the Transkeian districts are under the impres- 
sion that if the council system were introduced 
into the Colony that would go to their land 
tenure, whereas I do not take it, even if the 
council system were introduced into the Colony, it 
would affect the tenure of land in the Colony at 
all. That is their idea. They are against the 
provisions of the Glen Grey Act as to land tenure. 
A second reason is this. They say that the council 
system is not sufficiently representative — that in 
the council system the Government has more 
power than is necessary. 

912. Then in the Transkei, in those districts 
which are not under the council .system, do the 
people object to the council system ? — They object 
to it, and of course their reason is they are under 
the impression that if they accept the council 
system, it will mean their accepting the land 
tenure system according to the Glen Grey Act. 

913. Then the reason why, while thev would pay 
their rates to the Council, they are very backward 
in paying their school fees is because in one it is 
compulsory and in the other not ? — Just so. One 
is compulsory. Of course they themselves have 
made it compulsory, seeing the Government has 
not forced the Council system on them. 

914. You say where the Council system is they 

pay their rates. That is because it is compulsory? 

— Yes. They have become reconciled to the system. 

At first some objected, but now they have it they 

are perfectly satisfied. 



138 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The ^ ev - 915. The Council can insist, naturally, on the* 

^ihiaif 61 payment of the rates? — Yes. 

jui T 1908 ^ amounts to this, it is because there is no 

' compulsion in the case of the school fees — there is 

no machinery for compelling them to pay — that 

they do not pay ? — Yes. 

917. You stated you thought the pupils made 
more progress in Standards Y. and YI. than the 
other standards. Can you give me a reason for 
that ? — My reason for that is this, that when they 
reach Standards Y. and YI. they have, during the 
many years attending school, been able to acquire 
the English language, whereas in the lower stan- 
dards they begin with simply no knowledge of 
English whatsoever. 

918. You do not think the reason is that more 
attention is paid to Standards Y. and YI. than the 
lower standards ? — I do not think so at all. 

919. You think the teachers give their proper 
attention to the lower standards ? — My own 
personal experience is this that with some of my 
best teachers I always advise them not to give the 
work in the lower standards to the assistants. 
If an assistant is able, let him take the higher 
standard and the principal teacher — the ablest 
teacher — take the lowest classes, as I think the 
low r est classes are of more value and importance 
than the higher classes. 

920. You think, personally, up to Standard III. 
Kafir should be the medium of instruction ? — I 
should not like to pit my own views against the 
collective wdsclom of the Convention. 

921. That is your own view ?— Yes, but I had to* 
submit to them. 

922. Chairman.] What is the difference between 
you and the Convention? — The difference between, 
me and the Convention is this. My own view is 
that Kafir should be made the medium of in- 
struction from the very commencement — that is,, 
along with English up to Standard III., but after 
Standard III. I w^ould not make it compulsory 
that the medium of instruction should be Kafir, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 139 

for the simple reason that when you take some of . Th e Rev. 
the higher subjects you cannot find words to 'sihian. er 
express yourself. Jul — 1()0g 

923. Then the difference between you and the 
Convention is you think Kafir ought to be the 
medium of instruction up to Standard III. in- 
clusive, and the Convention thinks it should be 
the medium the wdiole way ? — Just so, and I take 
it beyond that it should be optional, and not 
compulsory. 

924. As the medium of instruction?— Yes. 

925. Mr. T. Ssarle.] Are you aware that some of 
the inspectors are opposed to this ? — To what ? 

926. Making Kafir the medium of instruction ? — 
Up to? 

927. Up to any standard ? — Well, it is natural 
some of them should be opposed to it, for the 
simple reason they have no knowledge of Kafir, 
and if it w^ere made compulsory of course some of 
the people might take exception to their not ex- 
amining in Kafir. 

928. The reasons they give are that they think in 
that way the knowledge of English w T ill not be 
sufficiently acquired. You do not think that is 
so ? — I do not think that is the main reason. I 
think the main reason is they themselves are not 
competent to examine children, even in Standard 
I., in Kafir, on account of their lack of knowledge 
of that language. 

929. What is the opinion of the teachers, gener- 
ally ? — I am not quite sure on that point. 

930. You do not think they prefer having the 
medium of instruction English ? — I am not pre- 
pared to answer that question. I am only giving 
my own experience as a superintendent, and as one 
who has been a certificated teacher himself for six 
years. 

931. Chairman.'] In your own school what is the 
view of the teachers on that point ? — A good many 
ask the questions in Kafir, but the inspectors 
always want English the medium of instruction. 



140 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 932. Mr. T. Searle.] Surely you have discussed 
"sMaH. er the question with the teachers. What is the idea 



July 9, 1908, 



of those you have spoken to ? — It was only at the 
Convention the matter came up very prominently, 
and when it came up there was much difference of 
opinion. 

933. Are you aware that a circular was sent out 
to inspectors and teachers some 4 or 5 years ago, 
practically telling them that in the lower classes 
they should use Kafir as the basis of teaching ? — 
Well, I have not heard of the circular, but I know 
the practice of the inspectors. That has not been 
their practice at all. I remember when we had 
such inspectors as Mr. Eennie and the late Mr. 
Crawshaw if a child failed in Standard II. in 
English reading then they took the same subject 
in Kafir and gave the child a chance of passing in 
that language, but the other inspectors have not 
gone on that line at all. 

934. I understood you to say yesterday that the 
inspectors object to your using Kafir as a medium ? 
— I said so this morning too. 

935. And yet we have it that the Education De- 
partment have practically recommended that it 
should be done ? — They may have recommended 
it ; I do not dispute that. But to my knowledge 
that recommendation has never been carried into 
effect. 

936. Then really as a matter of fact, according to 
3^ou, the inspectors are ignoring the circular which 
was sent out ? — I have already said I know noth- 
ing about the circular. They may have received 
such a circular, but to my knowledge that has not 
been the practice. I have not seen anything of the 
circular myself. 

937. Do you know whether it is correct that 
some of the heathen natives object to their daugh- 
ters going to school because they say that when 
they have been taught they will not marry accord- 
ing to their customs and consequently they lose 
the lobola ? — Well, I think that is true — it is a fact 
that a good many of the heathen people will only 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION'. 141 

send their daughters up to a certain age, say 13 or , The Rev 
so. but the majority will not send them at all. * sSSau. ei 

938. For that reason ? — For that reason, and that ^ — 190g 
is the reason why if you go to any location, par- ' 
ticularly one inhabited by heathen people, you 

will generally find the majority of the pupils are 
boys and there are very few girls at school. 

939. Could you tell the Committee whether any 
number of the natives after passing through the 
schools, go back, we will say, to blankets and 
heathen customs again? — Of course you have 
elementary schools and secondary schools or 
training institutions. Which schools do you 
mean ? 

940. Say the elementary schools ? — As a matter 
of fact, there are a great many who are the 
children of heathens who simply go to school with 
a shirt on and sometimes their kaross, and when 
they return to their homes they simply put off the 
shirts and take their karosses again. There are 
those who do that. 

941. Does that apply to any who have passed 
Standards V. and VI. say ? — I have never heard of 
a case of that kind. 

942. It is only those who leave school very early 
who do that ? — It is those who leave school at an 
early age. A good many, of course, never go 
beyond the first standard, just because the medium 
of instruction is English, whereas if they com- 
menced in their own language the probabilities 
are before finishing a year or so they would be 
able to pass the third standard in Kafir. 

943. You think in every case where they have 
been to school to Standards V. and VI., they have 
practically adopted civilized habits ? — Practically, 
for this reason, that a good many of them, although 
there may be solitary cases of going back to hea- 
thenism, do not believe in those things. By edu- 
cating them you are simply undermining the 
heathen customs, even if one does revert to 
heathenism. 

944. You look upon education, really, as the 
great civilizing agency ? — Undoubtedly. 



142 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 945. Of course you have total prohibition of the 
Sir sihifif ej sale of liquor in the Transkei ? — Yes. 



July 9, 1908, 



946. We are told a good deal of smuggling goes 
on, nevertheless ? — I am not prepared to answer 
this question in connection with this matter of 
education. 

947. Do you find educated natives as a rule are 
more or less addicted to drink than the unedu- 
cated one — than the raw Kafir say ? — It all depends 
upon the educated native — whether after leaving 
the institution he has been living amongst his own 
people. If he has been living amongst his own 
people then he is not addicted to drink, but if he 
leaves the location and goes to town then of course 
he adopts the vices of the white man, even if edu- 
cated, and that is also true with regard to these 
*'Beds." 

948. Then if there is any. smuggling going on it 
is not for the educated native, but for the heathen 
native ? — It does not necessarily follow it should 
be. I cannot just see the relevancy of your 
question. 

949. You say remaining amongst their own 
people they do not drink ? — I do not say never, 
but it is not a common thing. 

950. But, as a matter of fact, is it chiefly the 
raw^ native or the educated native who smuggles 
liquor in — who gets this illicit liquor? — I doubt 
very much whether the educated native would 
smuggle it. Of course I do not say he could not 
do it. 

951. Mr. Murray.'] I understand that you are 
the manager of a number of schools ? — Yes, I am. 

952. And are the salaries for the teachers of 
these schools paid direct to you ? — Paid direct to 
me by the Education Office. That is, of course, as 
things are now, it is paid direct to the Civil Com- 
missioner of the district. He pays it to me on the 
instruction of the Education Department. 

953. Are there many native ministers who are 
managers of schools to whom the salaries are 
paid ? — I know of a good many. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 143 

954. Supposing anything went wrong with the The Rev. 
moneys, would your society hold themselves slSaif^ 
responsible ? — If anything went wrong with the - ^ 
moneys paid to me ? 

955. Yes. If there was any loss of money paid 
to you for teachers, would the society with which 
you are connected hold itself responsible ? — I do 
not think so at all. 

956. You sometimes referred to Fingoland. 
When you talk of Fingoland what do you mean ? — 
Fingoland was given to the Fingos after the Kafir- 
killing business ; a large strip of country was given 
them. 

957. What strip of country — what district ? — 
Nqamakwe. Butterworth and Tsomo. 

958. You said you thought the schools under the 
council were better, generally speaking, than the 
schools not under the council, because of the 
higher salaries paid to the teachers in the schools 
under the council ? — Yes. 

959. Can you tell me, more or less, what the 
difference is between the principal's salary in a 
council and in a non- council school ? — It all de- 
pends on the man. In the council schools the 
teacher commences with £20 a year if uncertifi- 
cated, and when he becomes fully certificated his 
salary is increased to £24 ; that is the Government 
grant, irrespective of the council ; and after a few 
years I recommend to the Education Department 
that his salary should be raised, and he is raised 
from the £20 Government grant and is then in 
receipt of £40 Government grant. So at the present 
day that teacher is in receipt of a Government 
errant of £40 and is receiving from the council at 
the rate of 15s. per £1 of what the Government 
gives ; that is, he gets now £70. 

960. In a similar non-council school what would 
that teacher probably be getting ? — I have a non- 
council school in the district of Cala, and the 
principal teacher is in receipt of £24 per annum 
from the Education Department. He is supposed 



144 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. to receive from the people £10 per annum ; that isr 
"sihiaii. ei £2 10s. per quarter. As a matter of fact he does 

jui 7 1908 no ^ rece i ve it- 

961. Chairman.] Does he receive any part of 

that ? — He receives it, but so irregularly. 

962. Mr. Murray.'] But yet those are hardly two 
schools which you can compare. You are not 
prepared to state that when a man receives £70 at 
a council school he will only get £30 in a similar 
school not under the council ? — According to the 
regulations of the Department, even before the 
council system, it was customary that the local 
contributions should be £10 per annum. Accord- 
ing to the council system, for every £1 given by 
the Government the people — that is, the Council — 
are supposed to pay 15s. to the principal teacher 
and 10s. to an assistant teacher, so in any case a 
teacher in receipt of a Council grant is better off 
than one not in receipt of a Council grant. 

963. Mr. Jagger.] There is more certainty ? — Just 
so. 

961. Mr. Murray.] And he receives 25 per cent, 
more from the people ? I mean the Education 
Department try to get the people to contribute 10s. 
for every £1. That is their aim. That, as a matter 
of fact, they have laid down ; we have that in 
evidence. I am saying they try that. But you 
say that in a council school they grant 15s. for the 
£1 ? — Just so. 

965. So there is 25 per cent, gain in local grant ? 
—Yes. 

966. In non- council districts where the people 
are supposed to give 10s. for every £1, do the 
people pay that in most cases, or do the mission 
societies pay it? — Well, it is the people. The 
people are mixed up in the districts. Some belong- 
to certain societies, but the management of the 
school is under a certain missionary, in whose 
building the school is being held. 

967. Supposing the people do not pay the teacher 
what he is supposed to get, does not that teacher 

. come to the missionary and say, ; ' I have con- 



July 9, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 145 

tracted to teach for £30, but I have only got £5 Si ^ e n ^ e e v ter 
from the people, and I think you ought to' give "slSaif. 61 
me the other £5 " ? — As far as my experience goes, 
the missionary tries to take care of himself too. 
He is prepared to give as much as the Government 
will give, and leaves the local arrangement be- 
tween the teacher and the people themselves. 

968. Twenty years ago the mission societies 
actually contributed to the teachers, did they not ? 
Not to my knowledge. I became a teacher in 1876. 

969. I think you made it clear that you think 
the couDcil system of collection of taxes for 
education might be introduced into the Colony 
without the whole of the Glen Grey Act being 
introduced ? — I think so. 

970. Then you said you thought the progress 
was better in the higher standards. What do you 
mean by saying it is better ? Do you mean faster, 
or do you mean more intelligent ? — I mean in this 
way, that sometimes a child fails once or twice in 
Standard I. and the same again in Standard II. — 
taking two years for one standard — whereas when 
he reaches Standard IY. up to Standard VI. the 
progress is more uniform. The passes are higher 
than in the lower standards. 

971. Do you not think that that shows that the 
teacher pays more attention to the higher stan- 
dards and neglects the lower standards ? — Not 
necessarily. I take it that the reason is this, that 
when a child is in the sub-standards the know- 
ledge having to be imparted to that child in 
English is not understood by the child, whereas 
the longer the child remains in school the more it 
acquires English, and by the time it is in Standard 
IV. progress is made with the child with the 
medium of instruction English. 

972. I understand you were educated at Hankey ? 
— As a child. 

973. And in the house of the Eev. Phillips ? — I 
was living with my parents and ultimately was 
taken over by the Eev. Phillips, who is now dead. 

[A. 1.— '08.] Native Education. L 



July 9, 1908 



146 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 974. Was he the first person who taught you to 
1 sihiaii ei read ? — No, because he was not the teacher. 

975. Who was the first person ? — The first person 
who taught me to read was a Mr. Fullerton — a 
European teacher. 

976. Did he not teach you your alphabet and 
your first reading of syllables in English ? — Dutch 
was the first language. 

977. Mr. Fullerton taught Dutch ?— Yes, and 
afterwards it was Miss Buchanan, but by the time 
she took charge of the school we were just chang- 
ing from the old system to the system of teaching 
only in English. 

978. You seem to favour children going to school 
between the ages of 5 and 6 ? — Certainly I do. 

979. Are you aware amongst Europeans there is 
a fairly strong opinion that that is a very early 
age ?— That may be the case, but the Europeans 
have the advantage of education at home, whereas 
the Kafir child has no education whatsoever at 
home. 

980. You say it is the policy of the Department 
that all natives should be teachers ? — Just so. 

981. Are you aware that Government gives no 
grants at present for higher education ? — I am 
aware of that fact. 

982. Would it not be more correct to say it is the 
policy of the Government rather than the policy of 
Department? Are you not saddling the wrong- 
horse when you say it is the policy of the Depart- 
ment ? — I think you are perfectly right there. Of 
course the Department is not supposed to have a 
policy ; it only carries out the policy of the 
Government. 

983. You said that in some of these letters you 
had seen from men who were educated in America 
they called themselves M.A. and B.A., but you 
never saw their certificates, and had no knowledge 
of the degree they actually held ? — No, nor have I 
seen the men themselves. The only evidence I 
have has been the evidence of their letters — men 
who are supposed to have passed the M.A. or B.A. 
degree. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 147 

984. You said you considered it a mistake that Tlie & ev - 
the same inspector should come to a school twice "s^ian. 61 
a year ? — Not necessarily that. My objection is to Jul — 1908 
the too many inspections that you have. 

985. I make a distinction between too many 
inspectors of different branches. I understood 
distinctly from you that you thought it a 
mistake that the same general inspector should 
come twice a year to a school ? — He sometimes 
comes twice or three times, but only once to 
examine the children. 

986. Are you not aware that at what are called 
surprise visits he gets a better opportunity of 
seeing what the discipline of the school is ? — It is 
possible. 

987. And that he also spends some of his time 
in trying to give the teachers hints as to teaching 
subjects in which the teaching is weak ? — I doubt 
that very much. The surprise visits I have seen 
have not lasted an hour, and during that time the 
inspector could tell the teacher very little. 

988. At ail events he might be able to ? — Perhaps 
he might ; it is a matter of opinion. 

989. Have you ever paid a surprise visit to a 
school under your management '?— Certainly I 
have. 

990. Have you never found such a school closed 
or anything irregular going on ? — It is such a long 
time since I found any irregularity, except a 
teacher being late. 

991. I understand you are very clear that you 
think teachers should be allowed to move their 
pupils up in the various standards ? — I am very 
clear on that point, because I think it is sometimes 
not the best scholars who pass at an inspector's 
examination, and the teacher knowing the children 
better, knows which children are best to go on to 
other standards. 

992. Is not the general result at all examinations 
that some who ought to pass fail ? — Yes, it some- 
times happens. 



July 9, 1908. 



148 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 993. Do you think that natives and Europeans 
;1I si^*K ter should be educated on the same lines ? — It all 
depends upon what you call same lines. 

994. I mean by that — just leaving the question 
of industrial education alone which we have in 
European schools — do you think the curriculum 
taught to Europeans should be the curriculum 
for natives ? — Some of the subjects would be no 
good for natives. Take engineering and such 
subjects of study. I think the natives should be 
taught subjects which would cultivate their 
development — things which would be of after use 
after leaving school. 

995. You said that you thought the time w^as 
approaching for all Government schools to become 
undenominational ? — Just so. Those are my 
views. 

996. In that case how would you arrange for 
religious instruction ? — I do not think the ques- 
tion of religious instruction would be one on 
which you would differ, for at the present moment 
you have Wesleyan and Church of England 
children attending. I do not think these natives 
are very keen on religious differences. 

997. It is not a matter of religious differences, but 
if you say you think it is time the native schools 
should become undenominational, how would you 
arrange for religious instruction then ? I do not 
want to make difficulties, but you are very clear 
you think religious instruction and moral train- 
ing should take place ? — Yes. 

998. Suppose the schools become undenomina- 
tional, do you think you could arrange for your 
teachers to do all the religious instruction that is 
necessary ? — Simply ordinary Bible teaching. 

999. But I understand you to say that at present 
you are not getting sufficient of that in many 
schools ? — I think so. I do not think we are 
getting enough of it, simply because it is not 
recognized by the Government. The Government 
allows teachers to teach religion at a certain hour 
not on the Government time-table. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 149 

1000. You think then that if Government, as a ^ Rev. 
counsel of perfection, suggested to inspectors to "sSai?' 1 
inspect in Bible history it would encourage the _ . — ■ 

. ^, . „ , . . n -r j i • I ' • j T 1 July 9 , 1908. 

teaching of religion ? — 1 think it would. 

1001. What are your reasons for thinking the 
time is ripe for undenominational education ? — If 
the schools were undenominational I think then 
the natives would take a greater interest in the 
education of their children, because they would 
also have a voice in the management of the 
schools, and I think they would support the 
schools more liberally than they do, but now they 
feel the work of teaching that is the work of the 
missionary. 

1002. At the same time, I understand we must 
go rather slowly in arranging for the management 
of the schools? — Just so, for the simple reason 
that the property of the schools is not owned by 
the natives, but by the various churches. 

1003. But is that your only reason. Is there not 
the further reason that in many cases the natives are 
not educated up to the standard of management ? 
— That is also a reason ; and I believe if you had 
undenominational schools you would have fewer 
schools, but more efficient. Now, with denomina- 
tional schools, one denomination starts a school 
and another one starts close to it in opposition. 

1004. Do you not think some arrangement could 
be come to between those denominations by means 
of a conference, by which this overlapping could 
be done away with ? — Overlapping as far as schools 
are concerned? 

1005. Yes ? — I wish it could, but I am afraid 
there are difficulties in the way. 

1006. Mr. van Boot/.] As regards the medium of 
instruction, do you know of any demand in any 
portions of the Transkei with which you are 
acquainted that Dutch should be the medium of 
instruction in native schools ? — Do you mean in 
Kafir -speaking schools ? 

1007. Yes ? — I do not think there is any such 
desire. 



150 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1008. There is no locality where Dutch is used 
^si°hiau. ei at all? — No. It would simply be complicating 
T i 7iqa C matters. 

July 9, 1908. 

1009. You never had any application for Dutch 
as a medium of instruction ? — No. 

1010. I am asking this question for this reason, 
that I naturally feel that any child, to make satis- 
factory progress, should be educated in a language 
which it understands ? — Just so. 

1011. Apart from the better progress the children 
would make by being instructed in their mother 
tongue, would you give preference to the use of 
Kafir in the schools also, out of a consideration 
that if English were the only medium of in- 
struction it might tend to displace your own 
language ? — I am not afraid of that. 

1012. Do the educated natives show a strong 
desire to retain their own language? — Oh, yes, 
they show a strong desire, but at the same time 
they feel that there is no literature in the Kafir 
language ; the only literature they have is in the 
English language. 

1013. So that the more general adoption of 
European civilization and education would not 
tend to lessen their love of their own language ? 
— 1 do not think it would. 

1014. You say there is a growing desire with 
the natives to have a voice and say in all school 
matters ? — Just so ; there is. 

1015. And is there also a growing willingness 
with the parents to contribute voluntarily to the 
instruction of their children ? — I think there is 
such a desire, seeing they have taxed themselves 
in adopting this council system. In the ele- 
mentary schools the missionary societies have not 
contributed a penny to my knowledge. It is only 
in the towns, where there is a grant given by the 
societies in Scotland or England. 

1016. Of course there were many of these ele- 
mentary schools that existed purely through the 
effort of missionaries ? — All of them. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 151 

1017. But the funds were provided by the s ^^ er 
parents ?■. — Up to a certain time. It was about ir smiaii. 
1866 that the London' Missionary Societies with- Jul ~ ]%8 
drew all these teachers that were sent out from 
England to take charge of these native schools. 
When I left Lovedale to go to Graaff-Beinet it was 

to take the place of one of those missionaries, who 
had been solely paid by the Society. 

1018. You say that a considerable number of 
young native boys went abroad for education ? — 
They have done. 

1019. Have you any idea at all what the cost is 
— what expenses are connected with obtaining their 
education out of this country, per annum say ?— I 
have no idea. As far as I have been able to learn, 
a good many of them have to supplement their 
school fees by doing some manual labour during 
the holidays. 

1020. Chairman^ You mean many of our own 
natives going abroad have to do manual labour to 
pay for their education ? — Yes. 

1021. Mr.- Van Booy.] In America ? — Yes. 

1022. Apart from that they would not be able to 
meet the considerable expense connected with their 
education ? — I should think the American negro 
churches do something to help them. 

1023. They were not mostly sons of wealthy 
natives who could afford to pay for it ? — There is 
a Wesleyan minister at King William stown whose 
son attended the negro universities, and he is now 
in Canada, and I also know of the sons of others, 
such as headmen in the Transkei, who have done 
the same. 

1024. A good many natives are wealthy enough 
to provide their sons with such costly education ? 
—Yes. 

1025. Would these wealthy natives be prepared, 
do you think, to support a local college? — Cer- 
tainly, because it would be the best thing for them. 

1026. Taking the natives on the whole, and con- 
sidering the mode of their living, would you call 
the natives, compared with the whites, a poor 



152 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEEOUE THE 

The Rev. community — considering how small their wants 
1 sihiaif. ei " are? — That is just the point. A native might be 



July 9, 1908 



rich, but the same native would be quite a poor 
man if he were a white, because the needs of the 
white men are greater than the needs of the 
natives. 

1027. So, comparing the condition of the native 
with that of the white man, you would not call 
the natives necessarily a poorer class than the 
white men? — Not at all. 

1028. By adopting the European civilization, 
how do the natives manage to meet the neces- 
sarily greater expense ? Do they work harder and 
produce more ? — Most decidedly. When a native 
adopts European ways of living, he knows that if 
he were to live in the same easy way that natives 
did he could not make ends meet, and so necessity 
compels him to work. 

1029. Do they adopt to a large extent the 
European civilization ? — Yes. There are various 
influences at work. For instance, there is the 
missionary, the magistrate and the trader. A good 
many natives go to the Transvaal and work there, 
and when they come back they have different 
ideas to what they had before leaving ? 

1029a. The point I want to get at is this, that 
where they live together they are gradually 
changing from the barbarous state into civiliza- 
tion and adopting the manners and customs of 
white people ? — Yes. 

1030. And naturally they consume considerably 
more than in the former sta.te ? — Yes. 

1031. Do the girls avail themselves, as well as 
the boys, of the more advanced education up to 
Standards V. and VI.-? — Yes. Some of the girls 
have passed even the third year teacher's exami- 
tion. Some have passed the school higher exami- 
tion, and some have even matriculated in the Cape 
University. 

1032. And they take to teaching just as well 
as the boys ? — Just so, although, of course, when 
they get married there are sometimes difficulties 
in the way, just as in the case of Europeans. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 153 

1033. Now as regards religion. You are in Si ^ e n B pJ t - er 
favour of undenominational schools ? — Not at pre- "slSaif. ei 
sent. It is coming to that. I am afraid that the Jul — 19Q8 
natives in their present condition would not in all- 
districts be able to manage their own affairs ; 

they must always have the missionary. 

1034. I mean you consider it desirable that 
gradually the native schools should be more and 
more undenominational ? — Yes, to obviate this 
overlapping business in connection with these 
schools. 

1035. But you are not opposed to the teaching of 
religion in those schools ? — I think the teaching of 
religion to a people like my own is most decidedly 
for their good. 

1036. Would you recommend that in the native 
schools religion should form a great portion of the 
education ? — Yes, it is absolutely necessary. 

1037. "Why ? — For this reason : a people like 
ours, who are just from barbarism, would be show- 
ing all the worst characters in them if they had 
the restraint of religion taken away. 

1038. You think it tends to develop a more 
virtuous life ? — Just so ; that is, if they are taught 
religion, whereas if you were to divorce religion 
from the schools I think it would be a dangerous 
state of things. 

1039. Mr. de Kock.] What are the school hours 
at present observed in the schools that you super- 
intend ? — I think five hours a day. 

1040. How is it spread out ? — There is an interval, 
I think, of a quarter of an hour or half an hour. 

1041. What time do they commence school in a 
morning ? — It all depends on the localities. The 
Government insists that we shall have school 
hours from 9 to 2, but in some localities we find it 
impossible on account of the long distances the 
children have to travel, and also on account of its 
being either summer or winter. 

1042. Then the children do travel long distances 
to go to these schools ? — Some of them have to go 
very long distances. 



154 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

si^on p e e v ter 10i3, Wnat is tne longest distance you know of ? 
sihiaif. ei — Some, I know, have to travel 5 or 6 miles — that 
Jul V 1908 * s ' * n one direction, going to the school from their 
' homes. 

1044. And going back again in the afternoon the 
same distance ? — Yes. 

1045. That has no bad effect on their health ? — 
If anything it would be for their good. 

1046. They do it quite willingly ? — Yes. 

1047. Are the holidays given to the children 
more or less on the same scale as in the public 
schools in the Colony amongst whites, or have 
you any special holidays ? — I think they are 
practically the same. 

1048. That is, you give them a long term in 
winter and a long term in summer and the usual 
ten days in the autumn and spring ? — Yes, but the 
Superintendent- General of Education has given 
discretionary powers to superintendents ; that is r 
if they ask in time to do a way with the short holi- 
days so that the pupils can be of use to their 
parents in the ploughing season. 

1049. Is that the case ? — In some cases, yes. 

1050. In the schools you manage ? — It depends 
on the teachers' desires. 

1051. Are you influenced by what the teachers 
want? — I always suggest to the teachers, and if 
they do not fall in line with my ideas, as it is an 
optional matter, I always leave it to them. 

1052. In regard to the men going to America and 
coming back with degrees, have you actually con- 
versed with any of them ? — I have never come 
into contact with any of them, except seeing some 
of their correspondence. 

1053. Do you think the education of the natives 
in the Transkei has had the effect of their adopting 
European vices as well as European morals ? — I 
take it the native adopts European vices mostly 
when he goes to towns, but when you find the 
native in his own location he is all right, and there 
is not much danger of his adopting European vices 
there. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 155 

1054. A lame number of these men go to the Q The R * v ; 

T , i te . o -x^ Simon Peter 

J ohannesburg mines ? — Y es. sihiaii. 

1055. Have you observed them closely as to their Jul ~ 1908 
behaviour on their return from the mines ? — I have 
observed them very closely. Some of them are 

very satisfactory ; in fact I find a good many are 
better men after their return from Johannesburg. 

1056. Some have not been satisfactory ? — Some 
have not been satisfactory. 

1057. Chairman.'] In what way ? — Some of them 
after their return from Johannesburg actually go 
to church and attend the services, which is a good 
sign— things they did not do before when in the 
kraals. Others again when they return from 
Johannesburg have learnt some of the vices — 
drinking liquor and using profane language and 
desecrating the Sabbath Day, whereas in their 
kraals they have only to be told such and such a 
thing is not allowable and they listen to you. 

1058. Mr. de Kock.] The native is always most 
willing to obey the wishes of those set in authority 
over him ; that is characteristic of him ? — Yes. 

1059. So to a great extent it depends on the man 
in charge of the kraals or locations or tribes ?— Yes. 

1060. In that connection you said yesterday you 
thought it would be very desirable to give very 
superior education to men, particularly the sons 
of chiefs, for that purpose ? — Men who are to be 
leaders of the tribes, for that purpose. 

1061. Have you ever met Khama, the chief in 
the Protectorate ?— No. I have heard of him. 

1062. Do you know he is quite an uneducated 
man ? — Yes. 

1063. But you also know he is without exception 
one of the finest administrators the natives have 
ever had ? — Just so. 

1064. Have you heard also that other chiefs up 
there in charge of people have had good educa- 
tions ? — Where ? 

1065. In Bechuanaland ? — I have not heard there 
of the other chiefs as I have heard of Khama, 



Simon Peter 
Sihlali. 

July 9, 1908 



156 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

? he n ^ ev ; 1066. Do you consider the native mind is 
siMaif. 61 inclined, after receiving a good education, to 
become that of a sound administrator ? — I think 
so. Of course there are exceptional cases. 1 think 
Khama, even if he had not become a Christian, 
would have been an exceptional ruler amongst the 
natives Christianity and education would only 
improve what is in that man. 

1067. In your own experience you have seen a 
large number of natives who have conducted 
businesses of their own ? — Yes. 

1068. Have you ever known them to be finan- 
cial successes ? — If they have not been it is because 
they have not had the previous training. 

1069. You say you have known them, but they 
have not been financial successes ; is that your 
answer ? — I know of some who have been financial 
successes, and I know a good many who have not ; 
but I am surprised that there should be successes, 
seeing they have had no previous training. 

1070. You mean they should receive a practical 
training in business as well as receiving a theoreti- 
cal training ? — Just so. 

1071. So all the book learning will not help the 
man who goes into business if he is a native ? — My 
view is teach a man what he will need in after 
life. 

1072. Would he get that teaching for business 
purposes if he got a high education we will say, or 
would it only be a step towards it ? — For a man 
going into business I do not think it is necessary 
to give him a very high education. Teach him 
what is practical. 

1073. At present you have no means of giving 
them business training — business houses who will 
take them in ? — Not at present, but I expect there 
will be. I am very optimistic as to the future. 

1074. Do you consider if higher education were 
given to the natives generally that the natives 
would be prepared to pay ? — I do not say generally; 
it is only a few who do require it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 157 

1075. Then the demand at present is not very The Rev. 
big ? — It is not very big, but there are a good many Sl & ? hisS! ter 
who want it and cannot get it. — 

1076. Could those who want it pay for it ?— I y ' 
think so, 

1077. There would be no money required from 
the Government to help such institutions ?— I take 
it it is the duty of the Government to do it. 

1078. But would it be expected by these people 
to contribute towards the higher education, or 
would they be prepared to pay for it themselves ? — 
I take it they would expect the Government to 
pay a share. 

1079. Supposing the Government is not in a 
position to give monetary assistance, would they 
still expect it, or be prepared to pay for it out of 
their own funds ? — I am not able to answer the 
question because, seeing they also contribute to 
the taxes of the Colony, they should have a fair 
share. 

1080. Supposing the Government decided upon 
a different course of assistance towards education 
generally in this country and supposing they with- 
held all contributions to education in this country 
— black and white alike — under those circum- 
stances would the natives want the higher educa- 
tion even knowing they would have to pay for it 
themselves, the same as the white people ? — Some 
of them would. 

1081. But there would not be many of them, 
because there is not a big demand at present ? — It 
is only a few who want it now. 

1082. Do you think it would be desirable in 
dealing with this question of higher education for 
the Government to appoint a Commission to go to 
the Transkei and investigate this matter, or do 
you think we can get sufficient evidence and data, 
sitting here as a Select Committee, to bring up a 
report which would deal with this question as it 
should be dealt with ? — I hardly do think such a 
Commission would be good. I believe you have 
evidence on this Committee that there is a desire 
amongst the natives. 



158 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rer. 1083. This is my point : is it not better for the 
Sll sihiah ?ter Government to appoint a Commission to go into 
— the Transkei and other native territories, or a com- 
u J ' ' missioner, to investigate and see how education is 
needed in those territories and how the people are 
receiving the education now, the superintendence 
that goes on and so on, and bring up a general 
report on the necessity for higher education and 
the desirability of altering the system of educa- 
tion of the natives generally ? — I was under the 
impression that this was the recommendation of a 
large Commission which sat investigating this 
matter — that the natives should get higher edu- 
cation. 

1084. You are referring to the Native Affairs 
Commission ? — Yes. 

1085. Did they take full evidence of all natives 
with regard to education? Have you read the 
evidence ? — I have read it in part. 

1086. Only in part ?— Yes. 

1087. They did not go into the question of the 
result on the native mind as to the education they 
were receiving in the native territories ? — They did 
not inspect particular schools, but they went on 
the general principles. 

1088. By taking the evidence of men who could 
give evidence beariug on the subject ? — Yes. 

1089. Have you read the Eeport of the Native 
Affairs Commission dealing with this question of 
native education — there are about 7 or 8 para- 
graphs — because it is very vague ? I am 
putting this question entirely in the interests of 
the natives themselves. My doubt is this : As a 
Select Committee sitting here, can we do justice 
to this subject, or is it desirable in the interests of 
the natives themselves and in the interests of the 
Government to have a Commission appointed to 
go to all the various native territories and investi- 
gate generally the question of native education, 
and then bring up a report to the Government 
which can be dealt with by the Government ? 
That is, not dealing with the native question from 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 159 

any other point of view than that of native edu- T ^ Rev, 
cation purely and entirely ? — I am not prepared to "sihiaii. 61 
answer that question. Jul — 19 Qg 

1090. Chairman.] You said the people are not 
yet fit to appoint committees to control the 
schools. Would the councils in the council dis- 
tricts be able to appoint education committees 
which could help the superintendents ? — That is in 
the schools now constituted ? 

1091. Yes ? — I do not think it would be very 
wise. I think it would clash unless the schools 
were on neutral ground and did not belong to 
societies. 

1092. You think if these District Councils ap- 
pointed education committees to superintend the 
work of these schools that would probably result 
in clashing ? — Yes. 

1093. It has been suggested to us that it might 
be well if the magistrate had the power to go and 
see the schools and look into them and see how 
the work was being done. Would that be a good 
plan?— I would certainly not approve of that. 
There are good magistrates and there are magis- 
trates who are most unsympathetic. 

1094. You speak about schools overlapping — 
different denominations starting schools in the 
same districts close to each other. Do those schools 
get grants from Government ? — Yes, providing 
there is a three mile radius — that one school is 
distant three miles from another — and the number 
of children is more than 25. 

1095. But you think they are still too close to 
each other ? — Yes, I should think so. I think the 
schools should be under a local committee and not 
under a denomination at all. That is, of course, 
in the future. 

1096. Colonel Stanford.] What in your opinion 
is the effect of education and, otherwise, of the 
assembling together at the meeting of the General 
Council annually of representatives of large tribes 
w^hich, in the past, have not had much intercom- 
munication amongst themselves ? — I think the 
bringing together of those various tribes which 



160 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

.The Rev. have been at variance with one another, and also 

lx siMaii. er have not been living peaceably with the Govern- 

— ment, has the result of making them more loyal. 

' These tribes have more confidence : they now feel 

the Government ha§ confidence in them, seeing it 

gives them local control of their own matters. 

1097. Mr. Levey.] It gives them a small parlia- 
ment of their own ? — Just so. 

1098. Colonel Stanford.] The effect, in your 
opinion, is good ? — Very good indeed. 

1099. Eegarding the use of Kafir as a medium of 
instruction, has the question been so prominently 
before the natives that you have been able to 
gather any impression of the opinion that the 
parents of the children would have about it ? — 
I am afraid that the parents of the children cannot 
understand such intricate questions, and I doubt 
very much whether some of the teachers are able 
to grasp the whole thing. I take it all the same, 
if they differed from the views that have been 
expressed, it is a fact — I noticed it especially in 
Basutoland— what a vast difference there was in 
our schools and those in Basutoland. Almost 
every person there was able to read, which is 
because the first thing a child is taught is Sesuto. 

1100. Do you take it that the churches are in 
favour of, or opposed to, this undenominational 
movement, or rather, the movement to undenomi- 
nationalize amongst the natives ? — As regards the 
view of the church, I may cite a case in point. 
When I first settled in Tembuland in 1886, Mr. 
Levey was magistrate at Cala, and I suggested to 
him that we should have an undenominational 
school in Cala, and he was in full sympathy with 
the idea, and called a meeting. They could not 
make any movement because of the missionaries,, 
and the thing collapsed. I was the only missionary 
with a school in Cala, and I was willing to give 
mine up, because I thought if we amalgamated we 
should have a strong school. 

1101. Are you aware that here at the Ndabeni 
Location they agreed to undenominational schools ? 
—Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 161 

1102. Mr. Levey.] Do you think the status of Si ^ o e n R p e e v ter 
the teachers should be raised ? Do you think 'sihiaii! 6 
they receive low salaries ? — Yes, because if you M ■ - 1908 
pay your teachers better you are able to retain the 

best talent, but as things are now a good many 
leave teaching and become policemen. 

1103. With regard to the number of these boys 
who have received higher education, what do they 
do ? You know many men with sons who are 
well educated. Can they get any occupation ?— I 
certainly think so, because if some of these young 
native men learnt trades some could become 
assistants in native institutions like Lovedale, 
and when you improve your system of education 
you will require better teachers. 

1104. At present a number of educated natives 
have to go as policemen because they cannot get 
anytning better to do ? — Because they are badly 
paid. AYe live in hopes that these things will be 
improved. 

1105. There are a number of old mission stations. 
Take Butterworth and several others, which have 
been in existence 40 or 50 years. Do you notice 
any improvement in those stations as far as 
agriculture is concerned ? The people, of course, 
are living a Christian life. Can you see any 
improvement in their cultivation or gardens ? — 
Perhaps land tenure had much to do with it. 

1106. Is there any improvement ? — I do not 
think there is much, if there is any. 

1107. Mr. van Rooy.] Is there any inclination 
with native boys who have gone beyond Standard 
III. to enter service with European, stock and 
agricultural farmers ? — I think the inclination is 
rather to go to the towns. 

1108. You state that outside the General Council 
districts the parents contribute 2s. to 3s. a quarter 
for school fees for a family, whether for one or ten 
children attending the school ? — Just so. 

1109. Do the parents consider that fair — that the 
family sending say, half-a-dozen children to school 
should pay the same as one sending only one 

[A. 1— ; 08.] Native Education. 31 



162 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. child ? — It is generally considered each mail has to 
S ™wf er pay just as much as the other. 

— 1110. And not pay a certain contribution per 

July 9, ^% hild? _ NcK 

1111. Are you acquainted with the Basutoland 
education system at all ? — I was in Basutoland 
and, having heard of it, I minutely examined the 
work being carried on there, and I found there 
they made a strong point of teaching the children 
Sesuto, and the consequence was the Basutos were 
rising together — not individuals going up like 
rockets, as one often finds in the Colony. 

1112. There is a more general advantage b} r 
teaching in their own language ? — I think that 
has much to do with it. 

1113. Were there any other points which struck 
you as differing from the system in vogue in the 
Transkei which it might be useful to introduce ? — 
In consequence of that they have better literature 
in Sesuto than in Kafir. 

1114. They are more advanced in having their 
text-books and so on in schools ? — Just so. 

1115. What do you consider a fair salary for 
native teachers — men and women respectively — in 
these native schools in different grades — elemen- 
tary and secondary ? — I think a certificated teacher 
should not get less than £40 from the Government. 
I think that is a fair wage. 

1116. Men and women alike ? — I think a woman 
should get about £30 — according to qualifications, 
of course ; it all depends on qualifications. 

1117. Of course I take it these teachers in these 
institutions live together in the European style ? 
—Yes. 

1118. So you think they cannot do with less than 
about £40 ? — That means, of course, Government 
grants. 

1119. That means £80 ?— Yes. I think that is 
about a fair wage. 

1120. In these elementary schoo]s ? — Yes, for a 
certificated teacher. 



July 9, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 163 

1121. That strikes me as rather high? — You -^ e ^ v - 
must 'pay them sufficient in order to retain their ' sihiaii! e * 
services; otherwise the men who have been Jul ^ 1908 
trained at great expense to the Government will " y 
leave. 

1122. Can they find better salaries in any other 
callings ? — Yes. Some can become policemen, and 
some of them are employed in lawyers' offices, and 
get better pay there. 

The Rev. William Charles Willoughby, 
examined : 

1123. Chairman,'] What is your position ? — Prin- The Rev. 
cipal of the Tigerkloof Native Institution. ™ST 

1124. How long have you held this position ? — wmoughby. 
For four years and a few r months. 

1125. And before that? — Before that I was in 
the Protectorate, in Khama's country. 

1126. How long have }^ou been in South Africa ? 
— 16 years. I know the interior a little too. 

1127. Central Africa ? — Yes. I was there in 
1882. 

1128. In what capacity? — As a missionary. 

1129. Had you schools under you at that time ? 
— In the interior do you mean ? 

1130. Yes ? — No ; it was much too early for 
education there. We were simply pioneering. 

1131. Is the institute that you now have pro- 
gressing ? — It is progressing. Do you refer par- 
ticularly to numbers ? 

1132. In regard to numbers ? — This year we had a 
very considerable setback. The De Beers slump has 
hit us hard. We have received only one new paying 
pupil. I think this year. Then the closing of the bor- 
ders has affected us. The natives in the Protectorate 
were quite willing to pay for the education, but 
with the borders closed there is no sale for cattle. 
It is not felt so much for the first vear, but " the 
stocking" gets low in three or four years. These 
two influences coming together have deprived us 
of pupils this year in our paying department. In 



164 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the other departments we cannot progress because 
cha^S we were full before in those, and we can get as. 
wiiioughby. many as we w^ant there. 

July 9, 1908. 1133. Mr. Jagger.~] Where is your place ? — At 
Tigerkloof , 7 miles this side of Yryburg. 

1134. Chairman^ How is the institute financed ? 
— The institute is financed, I suppose I ought to 
say. by the London Missionary Society, bat as a 
matter of fact it is a separate fund called the 
Arthington Bequest, and is not at all connected 
with the general finance of the Society. That was 
a large bequest left by Mr. Arthington, of Leeds, 
an inventor, for certain special purposes, and it is, 
really controlled by a committed under a scheme 
of the Charity Commissioners. 

1135. Hoav old is the Arthington Bequest ? — I 
think since Mr. Arthington died something like 7 
or 8 years have passed away, but there were finan- 
cial difficulties. It was left to the London Mis- 
sionary Society and the Baptist Missionary Society 
upon conditions. It was a large sum, but neither 
society was prepared to take it on these conditions^ 
and then the Charity Commissioners considered 
it, and they drew up a scheme observing the spirit 
of the bequest although varying some of its letters. 
That is about four years ago. 

1136. This institute is managed entirely by your- 
self ; you are the controller of it ? — I have the control 
of it, but we have a committee of management,which 
meets once a year. As a matter of fact, everything 
connected with the London Missionary Society in 
Bechuanaland is controlled by what we call the 
district committee. In the last resort the district 
committee are the last authorities, short of the 
directors of the society in England. Then the 
district committee has appointed a sub- committee 
for Tigerkloof especially. This sub-committee is 
always available, and, if not otherwise required, 
meets once a year to deal with the estimates and 
draw up reports. It can be called together often er 
if necessary. 

1137. Who constitute the sub-committee ? — Three 
of our missionaries. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 165 

1138. You have no natives on it ? — None what- ^£e Rev. 

\v llliani 
fever. Charles 

1139. Do you think that is as it should be ?— wmoughby. 
AVith regard to the administration of funds from July y, iuos. 
London, do you mean ? 

1140. With regard to the natives having no say 
whatever in the management of the institute at 
all ? — As long as the institute is paid for by 
London, London will control it. As to whether 
that is the most desirable state of affairs is quite 
another matter, but while London finances it, 
London will certainly control it, and our sub- 
committee, of course, can do nothing but recom- 
mend. The last word of all is from the Board in 
London. 

1141. Is there any feeling amongst the natives, 
as far as you are concerned, that they should have 
a larger say in the management of their schools ? — 
You are not speaking of the institution, but the 
elementary schools proper ? 

1142. Take the institute, first of all ? — I have 
seen no indication of that. I think it would be 
too big an order for them to contemplate just now. 

1143. Have you any considerable experience of 
the working of the ordinary schools.? — Yes. I had 
a good many schools running in Khama's country, 
and I am more or less familiar with all the schools 
we have in the Protectorate. You cannot under- 
stand Bechuanaland education on this side of the 
Border without taking the Bechuana as a whole. 

1144. You co-operate considerably, I understand, 
with Khama himself ?— In what way do you mean ? 

1145. Do not you consult with him as to the 
starting of schools, and so forth? — Not to any great 
extent. If I was starting a new school I should 
probably talk it out with him in this way, that I 
should want a site to build a cottage for the 
teacher, and probably want him to build it or 
give an order for it to be built. Nothing can be 
done amongst the Bechuanas without an order 
from the chief, and in that sense it would be 
necessary to talk out any arrangement ; but in the 



166 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN" BEFORE THE 

The Rev. matter of the school work proper — the curriculum 
Chutes and staff and such like — we should not discuss it 
wiiioughbv. w ith him. 

July 9, 1908. 1146. Have you seen Mr. Sargant's report ? — I 
know it intimately,. 

1147. Are you in general agreement with it ?— In 
general agreement with it. In some particulars 
there is a little too much of the theory of one who 
is not familiar, perhaps, with the details of inside 
work. Mr. Sargant gripped the general facts, but 
he was only a visitor, and it does not matter how 
able the visitor, there are always details which 
elude him. Some of these things he recommends 
he would not have recommended if he had been 
more familiar with the facts. But 1 agree with 
nine-tenths of it. 

1148. Are you referring to the special report on 
Bechuanaland ? — I have not seen the published 
report. My acquaintance with Mr. Sargant's report 
is with the report that Lord Selborne sent me a 
manuscript copy of before it was published. The 
book produced is apparently it. Mr. Sargant has 
only paid one visit to the Protectorate and 
Colonial Bechuanaland. After visiting the Pro- 
ectorate the issued a report, which I saw in 
manuscript. Lord Selborne sent me a copy two 
months later, with a request for a general criticism, 
and that report I am familiar with. 

114*9. Could vou describe the svstem of education 
in Bechuanaland ?— The system of education in 
Bechuanaland, as far as the London Missionary 
Society is concerned, begins with schools of a very 
elementary type indeed. These schools could be 
divided into two classes— out station schools and 
head station schools. The schools at the head 
stations are taught by qualified teachers. At 
Serowe and Molepolole we have appointed, 
entirely at the expense of the London Missionary 
Society, certificated English teachers, ladies in both 
cases. At Kanye, another head station, we have a 
qualified teacher — a native. Coming across on 
this side of the Border, we have two head stations 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 167 

— Kuruman and Taungs. * We have a certificated T ^ n ? e ^ 
teacher at Kuruman, largely financed by the chaS 
Society, but there the ordinary conditions of the wuioughby. 
Government grant come in. At Taungs we had a juiy 9, 1908. 
qualified European teacher on similar conditions, 
but that has been recently changed, and we have 
now a qualified native teacher. Barkly West is 
only an itineration centre at which the missionary 
resides, and not a head station, in the same sense 
as far as schools are concerned. There are other 
schools, but not what I would call head station 
schools. With regard to the out station schools, 
wherever we put down native Evangelists we 
insist that they shall teach reading and writing. 
At an Evangelistic centre there would be a school 
of fair size, but the grade would be very low ; 
ordinary reading and writing is taught and a 
small amount of arithmetic. 

1150. In what language ? — Always in Secwana. 
At the head stations we also teach in Secwana* 
except when we come within the Colonial regula- 
tions, and then we have to comply with them. At 
the same time, we teach English from the begin- 
ning in the head schools. The first teaching is 
given in Secwana. The aim of the teacher is to 
give a knowledge of English, and the higher the 
standard the more English is understood. These 
schools are managed entirely by the missionaries 
at the head stations. The missionary consults 
with the deacons of the native church to any 
extent he wishes — he is not obliged to consult 
them at all. In matters of finance, the funds are 
raised by the natives with the exception of the 
payment of the salary of the teacher, which is 
entirely paid by our Society. The fees collected 
from the scholars are used for the payment of the 
subordinate teachers. The fees are sometimes a 
difficulty : we easily get them promised, but do 
not easily get them in. Sometimes we have to go 
back on the church funds to supplement the salary 
of the teacher because the fees have been deficient. 
I think probably that may give you an idea of the 



168 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. ii ne we have gone on in elementary education. 
chaiiS The institution, of course, is a thing quite apart, 
wiiioughby. an d j s j n no wa y connected with anything 1 have 
July 9, 1908. said before. The institution is administered by 
the district committee, acting through its sub- 
committee once a year and through the principal 
during the rest of the time, and the last word in 
every case remains with our board of directors in 
London. That again is theoretical, because I do 
not think they have much to do with the institu- 
tion. They hand it to a committee which is 
appointed by the Charity Commissioners. We are 
not supposed to know about that, and we send the 
communications in the usual way to our Board. 

1151. "What was the object of the foundation of 
the institute ? — To provide teachers for work in 
the elementary schools, and to teach industry 
especially. We made a strong point of that. 
Also to provide native evangelists and native 
ordained ministers for the general work of our 
society in Bechuanaland. 

1152. Does the institute work under the Educa- 
tion Department ? — Yes ; it works under the 
Education Department — that is, the elementary 
education and the industrial education. We have 
a theological department, which is not in any way 
connected with the Education Department. I think 
it is very difficult for people who are fairly familiar 
with colonial education to appreciate the position 
of affairs in Bechuanaland. They are radically 
different from anywhere else in the Colony ; they 
are so much more backward. 

1153. You think education is far more backward 
in Bechuanaland than in the Transkei ? — There 
is no comparison whatever. It is in its most 
elemental stage. You could get the figures from 
the Education Department, but in conversation 
not long ago with a gentleman who should know 
a good deal about the schools in the Protectorate. 
I was led to understand that probably not more 
than 20 native boys or girls in the Protectorate 
could do Standard VI. work. I should believe 
that. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 169 

1154. In your institute do you use Secwana as ™e Rev. 
the medium of teaching ? — No. In teaching we charjS 
use English only as the medium, and we have wnioughby. 
penalties for the speaking of any language but j u i y 9, 1908. 
English, except after 8 o'clock in the evening. We 

do that because there is no possible hope of pre- 
paring boys for the taking of the normal certificate 
unless you begin with it in some such way as that 
when they enter an institution like ours. 

1155. At what standard do they enter your 
institute ? — We have not a very definite standard. 
We should take them in Standard I., but we do 
not like it. We prefer standards II. and III., and 
prefer III. to II. very much. 

1156. The institute is carrying on elementary 
education as well as normal education ? — Yes. We 
have a certain number of apprentices who are duly 
apprenticed to trades. They work from 7 in the 
morning to 5 in the evening, with breaks for meals, 
and then they are in school in the evening from 
6 o'clock to 8.30—8.0 o'clock is the time table, but 
we go past that. They receive elementary educa- 
tion, and do a standard a year on the average, 
notwithstanding the somewhat limited hours. 
Then at the boarding school we receive the sons of 
those who are able to pay fees, and that is run on 
the ordinary lines of an elementary school. 

1157. In all English is the standard ? — English 
is the standard. I may say the teaching of English 
is not resented by the native, and is very popular, 
but at the same time I think it keeps him back in 
the earlier standards. 

1158 — In your own schools — in the Protectorate 
especially — you use Secwana chiefly ? — Yes, but 
we teach English in the beginning. I do not think 
the scholars would attend and pay fees if we did 
not teach English. 

1159. Is it your experience that using Secwana 
as the medium improves the teaching of English 
in the long run ? — No. 

1160. You think using Secwana as the medium 
is not conducive to the acquisition of the English 



170 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T^Rev. language? — No. I think using Secwana as the 
charTeT medium gives a boy or girl a better grip of the 
wiiioughby. subjects taught generally, but I think teaching in 
July 9, 1 9us. English from the very beginning gives a better 
grip of English. It depends on what you want to 
do with the boy afterwards. If you want to edu- 
cate in ordinary general subjects up to Standards 
III. or IV. you are wasting time in doing it in 
English, although at the same time it would be 
more popular with the native ; but if you want to 
prepare him for a teacher, or evangelist, or native 
minister, or to fill any post in which he ought to 
be able to read English books, well then the sooner 
you begin to teach him English the better. 

1161. How is it possible to begin using English 
as the medium where the child knows no English 
at all ? — It is very difficult at first. We have had 
boys in the industrial side who have come in to us 
knowing no English at all as far as I could 
discover, but our rule is very hard and fast that 
nothing but English must be spoken, and they are 
punished if they speak in anything else, and it is 
astonishing how soon they can talk in it. I have 
often been surprised at the result myself, and 
wondered how it is done. There is no doubt the 
native is a born linguist. I should say in anything 
requiring memory there is no comparison between 
a Mocwana and an Englishman, but in anything 
requiring intellectual thought and initiative, or 
the care tnl working out of a problem, he is very 
weak as compared with the European races 
generally. In the matter of learning a language, 
though, there is no doubt that he can give us 
points every time. 

1162. Are the teachers in your ordinary schools 
all able to speak Secwana ? — Yes. The European 
certificated teachers we have appointed at the 
head stations are subject to the general rule of the 
Society. We have a rule by which the salary of 
every missionary sent into the field has 10 per 
cent, deducted until he passes his third examina- 
tion in the Secwana language, and that is carried 



^""is' 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 171 

out with great rigour. So every one of our mission- ^e?ev. 
aries has to pass an examination in Secwana the chariS 
first year, another the second and another the wuioughby. 
third, and they are fairly stiff examinations. juiy 9, 1908. 

1163. Mr. Jagger.] Does that apply the world 
over ? — Everywhere. 

1164. With the Chinese language too ? — Every- 
where ; wherever we send our missionaries that is 
the regulation, and the certificated teachers we 
have appointed to the schools come under that 
regulation, except the members of the staff at 
Tigerkloof , because there we are not supposed to 
need any language but English. 

1165. Chairman.'] You say that the Bechuana is 
lacking in intelligence as compared with English 
people. Do you think his civilization has ad- 
vanced far enough for us to be able to say that it 
is a radical defect or is it perhaps curable ? — I do 
not think I quite said he was lacking in intelli- 
gence : I should say his intelligence is of a 
different order. In many cases he excels us ; in 
many others — and those we are apt to think most 
essential to civilization — he is distinctly our 
inferior. 

1166. Is this due to something ineradicable, or is 
it due to circumstances and surroundings? — I 
daresay environment has a very great deal to do 
with it. It is very difficult to say physiologically 
how much hereditary influence and environment 
respectively have to do with the peculiar twist of 
a native 1 s mind, or of a tribal mind. I daresay if 
one studied it carefully one would come to the 
conclusion that it is more generally due to environ- 
ment than anything else. At the same time, the 
true capacity of the native mind is just now 
occupying the attention of a good many scientists. 
Statistics are being prepared in the Soudan, and 
especially the age at which the fissures of the 
skull close up is being studied, and we may have 
some light on that in a f ew r years : I do not think 
we have any now. 



172 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1167. You do not think we are at present in a 

chaiie^ position to dogmatize on this subject of the inhe- 

wiiioughby. ren t differences between the different races ? — No, 

July 9^ 1908. 1 do not think so. I think we know a little more 

than we used to, but our present scientific 

knowledge of the Bantu tribes is only sufficient to 

show us how ignorant we are. 

1168. When we are in a position of that kind is 
there not a certain danger of a plethora of dog- 
mas being put forward which might mislead us by 
an air of authority which does not belong to 
them ? — No doubt. 

1169. As far as you have seen, does the native in 
the district with which you are acquainted stop 
developing m a remarkable way at a particular 
standard ? — Yes ; natives in school, you mean ? 

1170. Does he develop faster in the lower than 
in the higher standards ? — Yes. I should say upon 
the whole the advantage is in favour of the lower 
standards. Of course if you take the present 
curriculum of the Colony, the lower staodard is 
essentially easier — boy for boy, teacher for teacher — 
than the higher standard. It is not difficult for 
the boys who ought to take the lower standards to 
take them, but it is much more difficult for the 
boys who ought to take the higher standards to 
take them — white or black. 1 do not think the 
curriculum is very well graded in that particular. 
I am not sure that it is not a wise thing, because 
education sometimes begins at rather an early age, 
and that is undoubtedly a mistake. So if you are to 
begin to teach children at an early age it is perhaps 
best to give a grading of standards which will 
about occupy half their time, and I would not be 
prepared to condemn that ; but it is a fact that the 
lower standards are easier in proportion than the 
higher standards. I have not seen anything along 
the lines of your question to lead rne to the con- 
clusion that there is any cessation of growth in the 
native mind. I have watched it, as the question 
is being asked in a good many quarters ,and I have 
seen nothing at all that enables me to make any 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 173 

dogmatic statement on the subject. Then you must The Rev. 
remember that often enough those taking the lower charfeT 
standards are grown up people. We often get wnioughby. 
people of 25 and 30 taking Standard I. and even j u i y 9, 1908. 
Sub- standard B. So the answer to your question 
would have no reference to the stage at which the 
brain of the native ceases developing. 

1171. Do you not find it difficult to get satisfac- 
tory text-books in Secwana? — Yes. We have to 
provide our own. We have practically the mono- 
poly in Secwana literature, for which we pay 
rather extravagantly. We sell every year at Tiger- 
kloof about £700 worth of Secwana literature — 
wholesale that is. 

1172. There is no large output of native literature 
at the present time ? — No. I should say one of the 
most desirable things in Secwana literature just now 
is a text-book or two on such subjects as physiology 
and hygiene. There is absolutely nothing at all 
at present. There might be another text-book on 
ethics — if the word is not too big. I do not mean 
anything big, although I use the big term, but the 
word " morality " is a bit ambiguous. 

1173. You think there is a demand for some book 
of this kind, dealing with what you call ethics ? — 
I do not think there is very much demand for it : 
I think it is very much needed. I think as a rule 
in dealing with the Bechuanas the things they 
need most are those they demand least. 

1174. And those are ? — There is a great many of 
them. 

1175. Amongst others, there is proper training 
in morals and proper training in hygiene ? — Un- 
doubtedly, and in physiology. I should trust to 
those very largely to knock out a lot of the 
superstitions which are now causing idleness and 
financial loss. I do not mean unaided, but they 
would be very powerful. 

1176. Is the system of standards in the Colony 
satisfactory for the native schools as far as your 
experience goes ? — Not altogether. I should take 
away some of the purely scholastic subjects.. 



174 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

wmfam When one speaks of education one has to be 

oharS constantly asking one's self what one means. To 

wiiicmghby. gi ve a man a scholastic training to fit him for 

July 9, 1908. doing the work another man will have to do is 

often spoken of as education, and in my opinion 

it should have a less dignified term. 

1177. Can you suggest a suitable term ? — I should 
suggest the term "blunder." When I speak of 
education I mean the sharpening of a tool. What 
I did with my boy and what I think every father 
should do with his boy — and every government 
with its citizens — was to ask the question, " What 
is the boy to be trained for ? " and the training 
that will fit him for it is the " education " in the 
truer sense as far as that boy is concerned. A lot 
of the subjects included in the curriculum at 
present are such as no native will require when he 
leaves school. What is the use of giving them 
these subjects ? I am discussing it only from the 
Bechuanaland point of view. 

1178. What subjects would you say ? — I should 
say certainly grammar, to a great extent, and 
geography. I should say the general teaching 
of arithmetic even is very much too abstract 
and not nearly concrete enough. But you get, 
for instance, a long paragraph written on the 
board in very bad English, and sometimes the 
pupils are asked to analyse this. Sometimes 
they are asked to correct it. It is all right 
enough if you have English boys, speaking that 
as their mother tongue, but I do not see the use of 
that to native children. I should be inclined to 
give the native a very much more simple and 
a very much more practical curriculum, and 
especially I would be inclined to lay a great deal 
of emphasis upon training the fingers and brain. 
I should take manual work to a great extent — not 
necessarily the teaching of trades, although I think 
this Colony could do with a little more skill in its 
population, but for another reason. I think it will 
develop the brains more than book-learning will. 
There is a tendency on the part of book-learning 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 175 

to produce irresponsibility, and there is very much T v ^ n ? e ^ 
less liability when book-learning goes hand in chaii™ 
hand with a certain amount of manual training. wiiiaugkby. 

1179. What do you mean in saying you think j u i y 9, 1908. 
grammar is not needed by the natives ? Do you 

mean the theoretical side of grammar? — I was 
speaking of grammar as a subject in the curri- 
culum. 

1180. Mr. Jagger.] English grammar, of course? 
— Yes. I do not think Secwana grammar is par- 
ticularly needful for them, but if we have 
grammar at all I would give them the grammar 
of their own language rather than of another 
language. 

1181. Chairman.'] You mean you would rather 
have composition, if I may use the word, instead 
of grammar — the power to use the language ?— 
Yes. I should teach him English, as I think it is 
very necessary if he is going far in his education. 
It belongs, too, to the advertisement side of the 
school — the natives want it. I would teach 
English, but I would do it as you teach your 
children at home, and not in the old-fashioned 
grammatical way. 

1182. Do you mean you do not want them to 
know a little of the geography of South Africa ? — 
A little, yes. But in its larger sense it is not 
likely to do much for the natives, unless you are 
going to fit them to be teachers, in which case you 
must go further. 

1183. You refer to manual work in the ordinary 
elementary schools, and not only such institutes 
as your own? — Undoubtedly. It would possibly 
be an expensive thing, but I should like to see an 
arrangement whereby every individual student in 
Standard II. or above it should take one hour of 
some sort of manual labour for every hour's book- 
work. I think he would do very nearly as much 
book-work and he would use his brain in a way 
he is not likely to do in the mere study of books. 

1184. You say it would be expensive — that is 
too expensive — to teach people a trade ? — I would 



176 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

TOiSm' not ^° ^° ^ ia ^ -^ en £ tn ' except in certain individual 

chaii™ instances. I would take perhaps the finest speci- 

wmoughby. mens and give them a trade if they wanted it. 

July 9, 1908. 1185. My question was would it be expensive to 

teach them trades ?— Yes, and also expensive to 

teach manual work, because you must get a very 

much larger number of teachers. 

1186. It has been suggested to us that the 
natives might have a good deal of spadework and 
that would not involve much expense ? — It would, 
because you would have to employ police to bring 
them to school. 

1187. Mr. Levey.] They do not like work ?— They 
do not like spadework. If it is something that 
requires the use of a European tool they are in it ; 
it is a thing they delight in there is no doubt. 

1188. You think it is absolutely necessary to 
compel them to go to spadework ? — I do not think 
you will teach them much by spadework. 
What is the whole of Bechuanaland worth as an 
agricultural district ? I am not talking of the 
pastoral value. There are certain choice pieces of 
country, and they are not going to be in the hands 
of the natives. What can be done in the whole 
of the Protectorate with spadework proper ? It is 
not a country which lends itself to that. 

1189. Chairman.] What is your suggestion for 
manual work ? — We are teaching them now to 
build a better house. I would take the funda- 
mental trades of civilization, and not attempt to 
give them a complete mastery of those trades, but 
teach them to use the ordinary hammer and saw 
and sailor's needle and teach them to mend their 
own boots and make a tin " billy " for themselves. 
I would take the fundamental trades and not teach, 
them the trades, but teach them how to use the 
common tools used in those trades. I am not 
speaking of natives in other parts of the country. 
I do not think it is possible to train the Bechuana 
of this generation to compete with the European 

• journeyman ; I do not think it is either possible or 
desirable. I think they should be taught to use 
the common tools. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 177 

Friday, 10th July, 1908. 

PEESENT : 

Mr. FREMAOTLE (Chairman). 

Colonel Crewe. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray 



Mr. W. P. Sclireiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Booy. 



The Rev. William Charles Willoughby, further 
examined. 

1190. Chairman.! With regard to the training of ^?„? ev - 

™ vY illiam 

teachers von have great difficulties in Bechuana- charies 
land, have you not ?— Yes. The difficulty we have wmaoghby. 
in the training of teachers arises from the fact July 10, i908 
that Bechuanaland is very much further behind 
than any other part of the Colony. In the case of 
the other native territories that w^ere annexed at 
an earlier date, education was at that time-I mean 
at the date of annexation — less further advanced, 
and it was possible for the natives who were then 
annexed to begin with the educational system 
where they found it. By the time Bechuanaland 
w T as annexed your Cape Colony code had risen 
considerably ; it was then practically what it is 
now. The code is so far ahead of the condition of 
the Bechuana that they cannot catch on. We 
have a vicious circle altogether. Our schools are 
lamentably poor, and the hope of raising them is 
to secure a better class of teacher, but w r e cannot 
do that until we train the teachers, but we cannot 
train them until we can find boys who are capable 
of beginning the normal course, and Bechuana- 
land does not produce them, nor is it likely 
to unless we have a radical change of method. 
It is absolutely useless to rely on Fingoland 
or Kafiiiand or Basutoland for the staffing of 
the Bechuanaland schools, whether on the 
Colonial or Protectorate side of the border. 
There will always be a continual interchange 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education^ N 



178 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN UEFOEE THE 

The Rev. among Bechuana on both sides of the border, but 

Charles we must rely on the Becliuana teachers for the 

wnioughby. staffing of Bechuana schools and the Bechuana are 

juiy 10, loos, so far behind in education that there is no hope of 

finding boys fit to begin the normal course. 

1191. What do you propose ? — I would suggest a 
purely temporary measure as far as Bechuanaland 
is concerned — in fact I think it should be the case 
in all newly annexed territories — a purely tempo- 
rary measure that would tide over the immediate 
difficulties. I would suggest the issuing of tempo- 
rary teachers' certificates of a lower grade. They 
should be issued to pupils who have passed, say, 
to begin with, Standards IY, Y., and YI., with a 
little school method and so on thrown in to fit 
them for teaching. You need not call them 
teachers' certificates, but give them some other 
name for a distinctive nomenclature, and they 
should entitle the holders to rank in some way 
above those with no training at all. I would 
entitle them to teach schools with Government 
grants up to a certain grade. This system might 
be in force for two years, or it might be necessary 
for four or five years. Then I would raise it to 
Standards Y., YI., and YIL, and in a few more 
years would make it a little more — YI., YIL, and 
perhaps the first year of the normal course. The 
exact arrangement would have to be carefully 
considered ; I am just giving the general idea. I 
would raise the standard of efficiency every three 
or four years steadily, until I brought it up to the 
grade of the ordinary normal course. That would 
enable us to get over the difficulty. 

1192. Has there been no great progress in this 
matter since annexation? — Absolutely none. In 
Mafeking you have a little community that is 
somewhat progressive. I think I ought to say 
there is no doubt the Bechuana are the lowest of 
all the Bantu tribes that we have to deal with in 
this British South Africa — distinctly so and beyond 
all doubt. In Mafeking you have a community 
that are a little more progressive than the other 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 179 

sections of the Bechuana, and they have in the S? u ? eV * 
native state one or two schools which are more or charfeT 
less commendable, and we have also a fair school wnioughby. 
at Kuruman, by dint of great effort, and besides July 10, 1908. 
these two schools there is perhaps nothing worth, 
mentioning in British Bechuanaland at all. In 
both those places the schools had attained to some 
degree of excellence before annexation and pro- 
gress since has been small. 

1193. You are afraid there will be very little 
progress in the matter of training teachers under 
the present circumstances ? — I should say it is very 
much more than a fear ; it is absolutely incon- 
ceivable that there should be any progress until 
we are able to begin, and to begin you must get 
boys who are prepared for the scheme, and you 
cannot get them until the general village school is 
raised to a higher level. You have vour circle 
and you have to break into it by main force. 

(At this stage the Chairman left the room, and 
Colonel Stanford took the chair.) 

1194. Acting Chairman.'] Could you not in some 
measure supply your deficiency from Basutoland, 
seeing the Basutos are practically the same race as 
the Bechuanas and speak the same language ? — To 
some extent that is possible, but the only terms upon 
which it is possible is by offering a larger salary than 
the Basuto teacher can get at home, or else taking a 
teacher who is altogether out of class at home. 
Both these things, I think, are impracticable. For 
instance, we cannot dream of taking teachers who 
are not sufficiently useful. It is generally a matter 
of character rather than qualification. We could 
not think of taking teachers from Basutoland that 
were too low down in character to be employed at 
home, and in regard to offering a higher salary I 
am afraid there is no hope of it. 

1195. Are the salaries of your teachers regulated 
by the Education Department upon attendance 
and the qualification of the teachers, the same as 



180 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Th ^m' * n 0t ^ Ler P ar ts ? — Yes, practically. We can get no 

chaiS teachers in Bechuanaland from outside unless we 

wiiioughby. are prepared to pay something like £60 per annum. 

July 10, loos. It is possible to start a very large number of small 

schools that could never raise anything like that. 

They would be schools of a very low grade, which 

would give us a beginning, but we could not hope 

to give such a salary. 

1196. Have you any difficulty in getting a suffi- 
cient attendance of trie children to get the Govern- 
ment grant ? — Yes ; it is very difficult to get them 
for half the year. For practically half of the year 
— the ploughing and reaping seasons — it is very 
hard to get them to attend. It is a difficulty which 
I suppose is peculiar to Bechuanaland. It is even 
greater in the Protectorate than Colonial Bechu- 
analand, due partly to the life of the tribe and 
partly to the fact that they have great stretches of 
land and esteem it their mission in life to put in 
crops of mealies and waste a lot of time in gar- 
dening. 

1197. Is not your difficulty largely attributable 
to the lethargy of the people in affording their 
children education ? — There is no doubt they are 
far more lethargic than the other tribes and, taking 
them as a series of tribes, they have not realised 
so much the necessity of education as have the 
Fingoes and Basutos. 

1198. On the other hand, is it not a fact that the 
Bechuanas have been more ready to accept 
civilised habits in the way of dress and so on ?• — 
Yes, I think they are more imitative than other 
tribes. They are very keen on any thing imitative,, 
but anything which requires persistent effort soon 
tires them. They want constant change, and want 
to find a royal road to learning, and they have yet 
to find it. 

1199. If your difficulty is to move people to a 
recognition of the value of education, how do you 
think you will improve matters by employing 
teachers of lower Standards and requirements than 
is done in the rest of the Colon v ? — I would not 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 181 

advise the employing of teachers of lower attain- S^? 6 ^ 
ments if it was possible to employ others, but chaSes 
when you import teachers you have to be prepared wmoughby. 
to offer a larger salary than they can get in the July 10, i9ot. 
country they come from. If we get teachers from 
other parts of the Colony we must pay them. The 
Education Department is not prepared to recognise 
the schools such as we start at all, and the people 
themselves cannot possibly raise the money. They 
could not even if they had more enthusiasm, and 
with very little enthusiasm for education it is 
more difficult still. It is not that I think a teacher 
of lower acquirements is better than the others, 
but it is the only possibility of beginning. We 
must begin somewhere, and the only place is 
where the people are at present. It is no use 
offering 6th Standard teaching to a boy not able to 
do Standard I. ; if you want to get him on you 
must offer him Standard II. to begin with. You 
must take a community where you find it if you 
want to lead it on. It is not a question of the 
ideal ; it is a question of the possibility that will 
lead you ultimately to your ideal. 

1200. What is your view of industrial training 
for these people ? — I think industrial training is 
very much more necessary for them than even book- 
learning ; I mean as a matter of pure education. 
I do not look to industrial training as a method of 
training native journeymen. If the desire is to 
train native journeymen from amongst the 
Eechuana tribes to compete with the European 
journeymen on any terms whatever, it is doomed 
to failure — at least in our generation. You can 
never hope to make a Mochuana of the present 
generation a journeyman— an artizan. When I 
speak of industrial education I do not mean the pre- 
paration of men to take their place alongside other 
journeymen, but industrial education will deve- 
lop the boy's powder of thinking as book-learning 
never can do. If you can teach a boy the dif- 
ference between llf inches and one foot you have 
taught him a very great deal. You have taught 



182 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. him something that will run through almost every 
GhaSes department of his life. If you teach him he must 
wiiioughby. j^ exact and the line must be as nearly straight as 
July io, 1908. he can possibly make it, and that a little does 
make a very great difference and will spoil his 
work ; and if you can also teach him habits of 
regularity, you will have taught him a very great 
deal. The difficulty with the Bechuanas in regard 
to book-learning is that you appeal to their 
memory. Well, their memories are excellent ; 
they can give Europeans points every time in the 
matter of memory. If it is something that can be 
learnt and then repeated later — something you 
can cram into a boy to send him to the exami- 
nation — you need have no fear ; you can always 
pull the Bechuana through. But that is not 
education as I conceive education. Education 
means to me fitting the boy for the work he has to 
do in future, and industrial training helps to that 
end as books do not. 

1201. Apart from the general view, how would 
you specialize on this industrial training? What 
form should it take ? — We have been teaching 
carpentry, masonry, and brickwork, and we 
propose to teach — if we can launch out a little 
further — tailoring and shoemaking. But when I 
say we are teaching these trades I want again to 
guard against misunderstanding. We are not 
hoping to prepare journeymen carpenters, masons, 
tailors or shoemakers. 

1202. Is that because of the inherent defect in 
the race, or because you hold they should not so 
gt) out ? — I do not hold they should not so go out, 
I do not think that is what this country needs at 
present — native journeymen — but still it is not 
that that weighs with me. It is the conviction 
that you could not do it if you tried, and also that 
you could not raise the Bechuana tribes in that way. 
Where would 20 native journeymen find work ? 
Perhaps at the big towns. In what way does the 
presence of 20 Bechuana journeymen carpenters 
or masons in Kimberley or other big towns help to 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 183 

uplift the Bechuana tribe ? What we want is the The Rev. 
uplifting of the Bechuana tribes, and I fail to see chal-iS 
how that could help them. It would help the 20 wnionghby. 
men. but their influence at home would not be j u i y 10, 1908. 
very great while they were living in a European 
town. You would uplift some of the individuals, 
but they would have practically no effect on the rest 
of their tribe. 

1203. Do you not think, then, your industrial 
training should rather take the form of agricultural 
training ? — No, because the territory they occupy 
is not agricultural by any means, with the excep- 
tion of a few choice plots that happen to be in 
their possession now, but which, I take it, will not 
always be theirs. Agriculture is out of the 
question : pastoral farming, yes. Although the 
Bechuanas are spoken of as agriculturists, they are 
far from it. There is no desire to learn agriculture. 
There is an intense desire to learn the use of the 
saw and jack-plane and hammer and so on. 

1204. Do they adopt generally the use of the 
plough ? — Yes. There has been great progress in 
matters of that kind. You do not often find 
women hoeing gardens to-day. When they are 
busy they all turn in, but a man would be con- 
sidered rather low down by the other natives 
around him if he did not inspan his oxen to plough 
the ground. But when it comes to anything more 
than adopting a few European implements I do 
not think there is any improvement in native 
agriculture ; for instance, we do not find the 
planting of new seeds, etc., going on. They get 
new varieties of mealies sometimes, but you do 
not see new varieties of crops ; they still depend 
on mealies or Kafir-corn ; they have not learnt to 
have different crops. Of course they have always 
put in a few melons and pumpkins. 

1205. You think there is no possibility of improv- 
ing their methods by teaching ? — No. We could 
not possibly teach them agriculture at Tigerkloof . 
We have no land that we can utilise for that purpose. 
The site is ideal for everything except agriculture. 



184 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Eev. What we have been trying to do is to send back boys 
charie? — we sent out our first batch about two months ago 

wiiioughby. — wno have been trained to erect better houses. 

July 10, 1908. We have sent boys back who, we are convinced, 
will put up the kind of houses their chiefs and 
wealthier people will be prepared to pay for. 
We are hoping that the influences of that kind 
of work will tend in the direction of encourag- 
ing the provision of better houses, which, will 
ultimately mean better furniture and a higher 
standard of living, which will also mean more 
industry ; and also while the boys are doing this 
work some of the influence we have brought to 
bear on them during their years in Tigerkloof will 
be spread among the people surrounding them. 
That is what we have been trying for in industrial 
training. 

1206. Will these improved houses be undertaken 
on the basis of your having taught them improved 
methods of building at your institution ? — We teach 
them as if we mean them to be journeymen as far 
as the class of work is concerned. We cannot quite 
afford to pay the expense of building four-roomed 
houses at Tigerkloof, and we are obliged to utilise 
them for putting up such buildings as we want. 
The aim of our teaching, however, is not to 
prepare them for doing journeymen's work, but 
other work. The boys have built their own 
school at Tigerkloof. It is about half up, and 
some of the rooms are complete. We have com- 
pleted four class rooms, and the actual boys sitting 
in the classes did all the building — the brickwork 
and stonework and woodwork, and painting and 
decorating — and we have tried to have it done as 
tastefully as possible. We have kept all European 
labour off that block, although we have employed 
them elsewhere. 

1207. Mr. van Rooy.] Not as overseers ? — They 
have teachers on, but the teachers never put their 
hands on the building. They are there all the 
time, and they make the boys pull down faulty 
work before it goes too far. They may show a boy 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 185 

how to place a stone or brick, but they will take it T v ^ n ? ev - 
down immediately and the boy has to pick it up cLiiS 
again and put it back. wnioughby. 

1208. Acting Chairman.'] Have you found them j u i y 10, 1908 
quick to learn in these directions? — Of course 

there is considerable difference between them, as 
between all other boys. They are very quick to learn 
to a certain point, but when you get to the point need- 
ing more care and exactness a certain number are 
almost unable to appreciate it. About one-third 
seem to stick at that point. They can all do a 
•certain amount of rough work, and then in any- 
thing a little finer you lose about a third of your 
class as far as advance is concerned. 

1209. Then in regard to the requirements of the 
Bechuanas you favour the teaching of the verna- 
cular to the Third Standard ? — Yes, up to Stand- 
ards II., III. or IV., and probably III. is the best. 

1210. In regard to lowering in some respects the 
status of teachers, you mean the status obtaining 
in Bechuanaland ? — Yes, as a purely temporary 
measure, so as to be able to bridge over the gulf 
between nothing at all and beginning the first year 
of the normal course. 

1211. There still remains the third difficulty of 
the non-attendance for half the year ? — That is a 
difficulty I am afraid we cannot get over at all. We 
shall get over that in proportion as we turn out a 
more educated class of parents, but that we 
have to wait for. The only thing we can do is 
to work under the very unsatisfactory conditions 
prevailing and make the best of it, and as you 
turn out boys and girls who have learnt a little 
more you will find they will be more anxious to 
send their own children to school. 

1212. Do you get support from the native chiefs 
and headmen ? — In Colonial Bechuanaland the 
chief is conspicuous by his absence. You have 
certain chiefs in Tarings and Morokwen. but in 
Colonial Bechuanaland they are a negligible quan- 
tity. 

1213. Is the tribal tie between the chiefs and 
the people still strong ? — I should say it is weaken- 



186 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

^wmSS' * n ^> evei T year — that the chiefs have less and less 

chari^ influence. Of course in the clays when we had the 

wiiioughi.y. i c j er chiefs their influence was very strong, but 

July 10. loos, iioav it is lessening, and that is the tendency also 

in the Protectorate. Even if you take the greater 

chiefs of the Protectorate their influence is much 

less than it was. 

1214. To what do you attribute the lowering of 
the personal character of the chiefs ? — I should say 
that the moment you take away from the chief the 
power of life and death everything else goes with 
it. It is a mere matter of time. It is impossible 
for a civilized government to control a native 
territory without taking that power away, but I 
mean it ought to be recognised that when you take 
away the least degree of power from a chief every- 
thing else goes with it. When you make it possi- 
ble for the younger brothers of a chief to appeal to 
the Government against what they allege to be an 
unjust decision, considerable authority is gone ; it 
is just a case of how long it takes the tribes to 
realise it. I have seen the case of Khama. Mr. 
Sargant's book is very good on that point, and I 
agree with him. You cannot have a civilized 
Government and a native chief in conjunction. 
Inconsistencies will live together for a time, but 
eventually the stronger will throw out the weaker. 

1215. Mr. T. Searle.] What becomes of most of 
the children after leaving school ? Do they go back 
to their kraals ? — Are you referring to the elemen- 
tary schools or our institution particularly ? 

1216. Say first the elementary schools?— In the 
elementary schools they live with their fathers and 
mothers and come to school in the morning and go 
home in the afternoon, and they remain as perma- 
nent members of their community the same as 
before. In Bechuanaland we have not that sharp 
line of division between the Christian and the 
heathen natives — the blanket man and the man 
with the jacket. Everybody wears European 
clothes in proportion as they are able to buy them 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 187 

or get them on credit ; and there is no separation ^ n ? e ^ 
of Christian communities from heathen com- cwS 
munities. wiiioug-hby. 

1217. At what standard do they usually leave July lo, 1908. 
the elementary schools ? — Standard TV. is about 

the highest reached anywhere, and the schools 
that would reach Standard IY. in the whole of 
Eechuanaland would be Serowe, Molopolole, 
Mochadi, Kanye, Maf eking, Kuruman and Taungs. 
As a rule most of the schools would scarcely reach 
Standard II. 

1218. As a rule do these children exercise much 
influence on the rest of the tribe in making them 
desire knowledge or civilization ? — I have seen no 
indication of that, nor would I expect there would 
be any very great influence in that direction. 
Ones hope is that when they become parents their 
influence on their children will be at least one 
step further ahead. 

1219. It certainly has an influence on the chil- 
dren themselves you think ? — It has an influence 
on the children in the direction of greater utility. 
Whether it has an influence on the children in the 
direction of greater industry I very much doubt. 
I do not mean to suggest the opposite, but I have 
seen nothing to lead me to conclude that the 
children going forth from our schools are more 
industrious than the others. I have certainly seen 
nothing to suggest they were less industrious, but 
nothing to show they were more industrious. 

1220. With regard to their morals, is there any 
improvement ? — I think so. When you come to 
deal with that you are dealing with a very difficult 
question indeed. Take a girls' school. The girls 
going forth from our girls' schools are more eagerly 
sought after in marriage than any other girls of 
the tribe. They are more presentable — they learn 
to keep themselves clean — and that naturally 
appeals to the young fellows of the tribe. But 
you can quite readily understand that those girls 
have a greater degree of temptation in a tribe 
where the morality is, to say the least, very low. 



188 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. The most fascinating girl in the tribe is subject to 

William i » " 

Charles very much stronger temptations than any other, 
wiiioughby. so that one has to take that into consideration. 
Juiyio, wis. At the same time, I think it would be capable of 
proof that if you take the girls leaving our girls' 
schools there is a higher ideal of morality amongst 
them than there is amongst any other girls of the 
tribe. Then you have to take something else into 
consideration. The old practice, of course, was 
for the father to dispose of his daughter in 
marriage. Well, when the girl has gone through 
three or four standards and has been taught 
a little — I do not quite know how it comes 
about, because I never knew a school to give any 
teaching on the subject — one of the first things 
you find is that she is going to choose her own 
husband, and you get a good many difficulties 
cropping up. It is a certain fact— it comes out 
nearly every time, if not every time — when that 
girl becomes 16 or 17 she will not be disposed of 
by her father according to his whims and fancies. 
It is still more so with the boys. I think even the 
boys who do not go to school resent having wives 
thrust upon them whom they have not chosen 
themselves. 

1221. You think it follows, if ever we hope to 
civilize these people and improve them, we should, 
however discouraging, go on with our education of 
them ? — I think so. My idea would be summed 
up briefly in this way. We have to help the 
Bechuanas in spite of themselves. That is the 
rock bottom of my position. It is not a question 
of what they want or what they are keenly 
desirous of having, but what the welfare of this 
South Africa of ours demands they should have. 
If I had known I was coming to this Committee I 
should have prepared several statements, but un- 
fortunately I had not sufficient time for that. 
When I was coming away I brought several 
batches of papers, and only last night I was 
looking at a reply I had sent to a Government 
department in reply to the question : Ci Why 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATIONS 189 

should we educate the Bechuanas at all ? " I put The Rev. 
it on the basis that we must on the ground of cLS 
economic administration. I think for every £1 wiiioughby. 
spent on education you are saving £5 for military j u iy 10, i«jos 
expenditure. I do not put it on the ground of 
philanthropy. Some of my work is philanthropic, 
but this has nothing to do with philanthropy. 
We have had to do it because of the sins of the 
Government. Education is purely economic 
administration as far as the native tribes are 
concerned. 

1222. For every £1 spent ? — You get it back in 
a higher kind of native. I take it the future of 
South Africa demands a higher type of native for 
its development. I do not mean a man who will . 
compete with the whites ; I think that is nonsense. 
If the son of a European, with all the inheritance 
of civilization behind him, needs protection to 
enable him to compete with the child of a grand- 
father who was almost a pure savage, he will not 
get much sympathy from me. But it is incon- 
ceivable. We want a higher class of native 
labourer than we have, and education is the only 
way to bring that about. If you do not educate 
him you must fight him, and I do not see the use 
of dead natives at all. If you do educate him you 
will get him as your worker with skilled fingers 
and a more or less intelligent brain. He will not 
approach the w^hite — not in this generation — but 
he will come a little nearer. 

1223. To summarize, your opinion is that we 
must educate him for our own sakes ? — I would 
put it also in another w T ay. I would strongly urge 
that very much more weight should be given in 
our school course to the teaching of morality. 
Yesterday I called it ethics, because the word 
morality is very ambiguous. I would encourage 
more stress being laid on the teaching of ethics 
and also hygiene and physiology and things of 
that kind to natives, for this reason that we must 
raise the native morals. I take it there are 
probably members of this Select Committee who 



190 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOE.E THE 

The Rev. a re quite familiar with the frontier districts, and 

GhaiiS they will understand what I mean when I say 

Wiiiougkby. that for the sake of our own sons we have to lift 

July 10, 1908. the natives up to a higher level — for the sake of 

our children. If we do not they will drag us 

down to their level. You cannot point in history 

to any single case where a higher race has lived in 

contact with a lower race and done nothing to 

uplift the lower without being dragged down to 

the level of the lower. 

1224. Mr. Levey.'] Have you ever visited the 
Linokana location in the Marico district ? — I have 
been there several times. 

1225. Have you noticed the cultivation carried 
on ? — It is very excellent and all the more because 
a great deal of it was learnt by the natives without 
intentional teaching. It is a valley which lends 
itself to cultivation. That has spread further 
now. You find them growing fruit trees some 
distance away. 

1226. That shows that if the people in your 
locality had the opportunity of improving their 
agriculture they would do it ? — I do not mean that 
they will not make progress in agriculture, but 
that the country they occupy is not an agricultural 
country. 

1227. You are a strong believer in their being 
taught industrial work, particularly agricultural 
work if the conditions are suitable ? — No, I do not 
think I would favour agricultural work, because I 
do not think they could carry it out satisfactorily 
on getting home. You must remember that not 
only the soil but also the whole of the garden 
ground is at the absolute disposal of the chief. If 
you taught a boy agriculture and he was not 
closely related .to the chief he would not have 
much chance of getting a good piece of ground. 
Where a native himself can get a piece of land, it 
would pay the State to show him how to cultivate 
it with a little more intelligence. 

1228. Do you think it would be a good thing if 
the native teachers could learn something about 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION". 19) 

agriculture before taking up the schools ? — I do T1 ^ Rev. 
not see the advantage of that. You have so much chariS 
you must teach your teacher that I think it is ^iiioughby. 
not good to overburden him with things not juiy 10, 1908. 
absolutely necessary to him in his work. I would 
sooner give him a drilling in first anl and hygiene 
and things of that kind. 

1229. Do you not think work is the most 
important ? — Yes. I do not think you can get 
any practical good without work, but I do not 
think it is absolutely necessary that that work 
should be agricultural work. In districts where 
the individual you are going to train is likely to 
be able to command agricultural land, use agri- 
culture ; but in the majority of cases I should 
take work in connection with the fundamental 
trades of civilization. 

1230. Mr. Murray.'] You said you had a com- 
mittee in connection with your institution ? — Yes. 

1231. Could the Government inspector's report 
on the school be sent to that committee ? — You 
are speaking of the Government inspector's reports 
on the elementary schools ? 

1232. Yes ? — It could be done if desirable. As a 
matter of fact, the reports always ' get there now. 
The report is sent to the missionary in charge of 
the school, but we require reports from all our 
mission stations at our district meetings. 

1233. The point is this, that if it is sent to the 
missionary only is there not a possibility, should 
he have pronounced ideas of his own, that that 
report will not be acted upon ? — That is quite 
possible. 

1234. So there might be some advantage in 
letting the committee see it ? — Yes. I think 
there would be a distinct advantage in making 
the district committee responsible for all Govern- 
ment grants given to its schools, and sending the 
report direct to the district committee. It is not 
a point I have ever thought over, but I think I see 
at once where there would be advantage in the 
matter. 



192 m MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Eev. 1235. You said you had apprentices. Do they 

cLiiS get Government grants at your institution ? — The 

wiiioughby. arrangement of the Department, as far as I can 

July 10, 1908. make it out, is that a certain — or, rather, uncertain 

number of apprentices receive maintenance grants. 

I cannot discover that there is any proportion 

between the number receiving maintenance grants 

and the total number in the school. We have had 

13 maintenance grants. We have at the present 

moment, I think 8. We have been discharging 

some quite lately who have completed their 

indentures. These latter I imagine, will be 

repeated. We have altogether 33 apprentices. 

1236. At all events, these maintenance grants 
are distinctly given on condition that these 
apprentices learn trades ? — They are. 

1237. What grant is given per head ? — When 
any is given it is £15. In connection with the 
maintenance grants, I may say I think there is a 
difficulty. I do not think it is wise to pursue the 
present method of maintenance grants, and to give 
a maintenance grant for a particular individual boy 
who is Specified by name, and of whom the Depart- 
ment expects to receive reports and so on. I think 
it would be very much better if the Department 
would say, " Upon condition that you teach say 30 
apprentices their trades, and those 30 apprentices 
are indentured for three or four years we will give 
you £15 each for a certain number " rather than 
that they should say, " We will give you a grant 
for this boy and this boy," because sometimes you 
get a little difficulty with the boy and the dis- 
cipline of the school practically demands sending 
him home. When there is £15 maintenance 
grant going you are tempted to do wrong. Also, 
when you want to exercise discipline with a boy 
like that you will expel him from school, and you 
know perfectly well he is going to knuckle down 
in a month's time and he will come back with the 
father and apologise, and everything will go 
well, but if you do that it means you will lose the 
maintenance grant. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 193 

1288. Have von represented your views to the The Rev. 
Education Office ?— No. I have not clone it on that clariS 

point. Willoughby. 

1239. I think you made it clear that a child July io r 1908. 
beginning to learn a foreign language should begin 

with the language as early as possible ? — I should 
make some distinction there. If you want above 
all else to teach the language then the sooner he 
begins the better. 

1240. But if 3^011 wish to educate a child then it 
is your distinct opinion he should begin in his 
own language ? — Quite so. 

1241. You refer to the teaching of physiology 
and hygiene and ethics ? — I used those terms in a 
very elementary sense, of course. 

1242. You also referred to some subjects in the 
curriculum which were unnecessary. Would you 
suggest that a separate curriculum should be 
drawn up for Bechuanaland ? — Not quite that. I 
should rather like to see the native laws of the 
whole of South Africa uniform — whether educa- 
tional or otherwise. I think we should have to 
grade them. ^We shall have to recognise that 
some of the territories are in a certain grade of 
advance ; some are low and others higher. I 
should like one curriculum for the whole of the 
native education of South Africa, only I would 
recognise that in some districts — by reason of the 
recent date of annexation and the rest of it — we 
might begin rather lower down in the curriculum, 
and not expect to reach quite so high in the 
immediate future. 

1243. You practically suggest that there should 
be a certain amount of give and take on the part 
of the Education Office, bearing in mind the district 
they are dealing with? — Yes. I am under the 
impression that something of the kind was actually 
done in connection with the Transkeian Territories 
when the Transkei was annexed. I am not very 
familiar with it ; I have read a little on it. I have 
only hazy ideas of what I did read, because I was. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. O 



194 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. not thinking particularly of Bechuanaland and 
chaSes education at the time, but I think something of 

wnioughby. the kind was done there. 

juiy io, 1908. 1244. In regard to your saying you think some 
of the subjects in the curriculum unnecessary, you 
went on to say that they were not required by 19 
out of 20 of the pupils. Is not the difficulty to 
know which pupil is going to be the twentieth ? — 
I quite admit that. What I meant was really the 
only one who would require it would be the one 
who was going to be a teacher or evangelist or 
minister, or was going on to higher education, and 
I think it is a very liberal allowance when I say 
one out of twenty, but I quite admit it is difficult 
to recognise which one will be the twentieth. I 
would urge, however, that it is very unwise to 
sacrifice the other 19 in view of that difficulty. 

1245. You think too, perhaps, that the twentieth 
would be so far in advance of the others that he 
would be able to make up leeway ? — I daresay he 
is generally the cleverer boy and I think he would 
generally indicate himself by the time he reached 
Standard III. or IY. 

1246. In connection with your suggestion that 
teachers should be accepted who have passed 
Standard IY. or Y., are you aware that in the 
Colony in European schools which are at a very 
low stage, such teachers are accepted ? — I did not 
know that. My point was not quite so much that 
teachers should be accepted who had passed 
Standard IY. but that Standard IY. should pass 
them into a provisional teacher's course. "With 
regard to the matter of teaching ethics, would it 
be in order to direct your attention to a notice 
that appeared in the code of regulations for public 
elementary schools (1906) in England on that 
subject, because it embodies exactly what I would 
urge ? I copied it from the " Education Gazette," 
Cape Town, dated Thursday, September 13th, 1906. 
I will hand in the extract. I think myself we 
should have something of that sort. 

(Witness put in document). 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. • 195 

1247. You are inclined to separate the teaching rj $f n ?^ 
of ethics from the teaching of Scripture ? — Yes, I ciaZ 
.•am inclined to do that. Whether you should have wnioughby. 
the teaching of Scripture in your code I am not juiy 10, 1908. 
quite sure. Upon the whole I think it is perhaps 

not advisable. But I think undoubtedly you 
should have the teaching of ethics. It is as neces- 
sary for the State to teach them general ethics as 
it is to teach them arithmetic, but whether the 
State is the best teacher of religion is quite another 
matter. I rather doubt that. 

1248. Have you ever represented to the Educa- 
tion Department this matter of accepting pupils as 
teachers from Standard IY ? — Yes, I have written 
them long letters on that subject. 

1249. Have you received any sympathy from 
them ? — Except that the matter was duly noted 
and beiDg considered and so on — the usual kindly 
official acknowledgment — but nothing more than 
that. 

1250. You would not necessarily insist that cer- 
tificates should be issued to these ? — I should, but 
not teachers' certificates. I would differentiate 
distinctly. 

1251. Probationers' certificates ?— Something like 
that. Call them monitors if you like. I would 
limit the period of the experiment to 10 or 15 
years, or to what on mature consideration might 
be considered the best period. 

1252. What grounds have you for saying you do 
not think certain choice spots in Bechuanaland 
will remain in the hands of the Bechuanas ? — If 
you refer to Colonial Bechuanaland, they have 
already gone, and in the Protectorate I feel very 
strongly that when the present chiefs go the terri- 
tory now called the Protectorate will revert more 
and more to European control and individual 
tenure will find its way in. The present system 
of tribal tenure in the Protectorate we are bound 
to keep as a matter of honesty towards chiefs who 
have been extremely loyal to us, and when they 
have gone I know no argument which will support 
the retention of the present arrangement. 



196 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEF0B.5 THE 

The Bev. 1253. You seem to draw a very decided line 
oLriS between mission work, which is the work of the 
wiiioughby. churches, and educational work, which is the work 
j«iy 10, loos, of the State, do you not ? — Yes, I think so. 

1254. Can you Christianize the natives without 
doing that ? — We cannot, and that is why we have 
to do the work the State is not doing. 

1255. Mr. de Kock.~} Generally speaking, you 
would prefer to see when the time is ripe for it 
individual title given to land in Bechuanaland to 
these people instead of allowing this communal 
tenure to go on? — Distinctly, if only you guard 
the individual tenure by making it inalienable 
and unmortgageable. 

1256. It would be in the interests of the State 
and in the interests of the native ? — Quite so. 

1257. It would bring about a bigger develop- 
ment of the country than anything else ? — Yes. 

1258. The present tenure is not tending to 
develop the land ? — That is so ; and the more 
progressive a native the more the shoe pinches. 

1259. You mentioned teaching tailoring and 
shoemaking and carpentry" and masonry? — And 
tinsmith's work. 

1260. Have you considered the teaching of black- 
smith's work ? — Yes. 

1261. What has been your experience ? — I have 
not had any experience, but in 1896 my directors 
gave me instructions to see everything in South 
Africa I could regarding native instruction and to 
report, and I had a long tour and reported on 
what I saw. I came to the conclusion that black- 
smith's work required more conscience than the 
Bechuanas possess. 

1262. Have you a copy of the report you could 
put in ? — I have a copy, which every member of 
the Committee could read, but 1 would not like it 
published in a blue book. It is a confidential 
report to my own Board, and one speaks to one's 
own Board in a way one would not to a Select 
Committee. I am quite prepared to let you have 
it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 197 

1263. Do you prefer black or white teachers The Rev. 
under the present conditions ? — That is a point of cSSes 
very great importance indeed. There is no compari- wnioughby. 
son between a black teacher and a white teacher in Ju i y i , 190& 
the matter of the development of character, but it is 
absolutely impossible that we should ever teach 

the Bechuana tribes by means of white teachers. 
It is financially impossible. It is altogether too 
huge a proposition, and we must provide black 
teachers for the teaching of their own people. I 
would aim at utilising white teachers simply for 
training black teachers, but I would trust to black 
teachers to supply all the Bechuana schools. 

1264. Do you draw a line between the black 
teachers in the Transkei and youis ? — I do not 
know much about the Transkei. My idea is that 
it is a principle applying all the world over that 
you must have people of practically the same race 
for teachers as those you are teaching. Of course 
you find tribes so closely connected that they are 
practically the same, but you must not go so far 
away as the difference between the black and white. 
With regard to white teachers in elementary schools 
in the larger centres of Bechuana population I 
should be inclined to lay it down that schools 
should receive no grant in aid of the salary of a 
white teacher unless the scholars were at least 300 
and the attendance 50 per cent, of the possible. 

1265. At present you know the power of the 
chiefs with regard to the administration of the 
law with regard to the rights of Kafirs ?— On our 
side of the border, do you mean ? 

1266. Yes ? — I have been gradually learning that 
during the four years of my residence on this side 
the border. I am not quite sure I have gripped it : 
it is very elusive. 

1267. At present the administration of the chief 
comes in conflict with the administration of the 
magistrate ? — It does, very distinctly. 

1268. And in the interests of the people it would 
be necessary to see that something definite was 
done in preventing that from going on ? — Un- 
doubtedly. 



198 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

TteRev, 1269. We have had some evidence with regard to 

cLii^ the natives who go across to America to be edu- 

waioughby. cated. Have you come in contact with any of these 

July 10. 1908. people ? — No. I hear of it in many directions,. 

but I have not met any of them. 

1270. It has been suggested that it would be 
advisable that the sons of chiefs should receive 
higher education than the people themselves. 
Would you think that advisable ? — I think that is 
very important, and I think the son needing edu- 
cation in that direction more than any other is 
the son whose father is least inclined to send him 
to school and pay fees. You will have to deal 
more and more with the sons of the chiefs, even 
although the power of the chiefs is declining. 
They will have influence for some considerable- 
time to come, because blood always counts. They 
will be the most influential of the rising genera- 
tion, and I think they should be educated so as^ 
to be capable of appreciating the Government of 
the country, and capable of being handled in a 
more or less satisfactory manner by the magis- 
trates and those that may have to deal with them. 
The mistake we have made in the past is in. look- 
ing to the wealthy class of natives to teach schools. 
AVe have passed them into the normal course, but 
after that they go back on the parental estate. We 
have to look to the other extreme — to. boys who 
wall have to work or starve when they have passed 
the normal course. We must teach them because 
of the needs of the rising generation. 

1271. Do you think they will be fit to receive 
that higher education? — Higher education is too 
ambiguous a term, and I would like to know what 
you mean exactly. 

1272. Would you take them to Standard YL, for 
instance ? — Yes, and a little beyond it if they can ; 
in fact I would have no bar to the progress of a 
boy if he is able to go on. As to how much it is 
the duty of the State to help him is another ques- 
tion. What we want, I think, is to bring the whole 
of the natives to Standard IY. or Y. or YL 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 199 

1273. In connection with your observations in ^e Rer. 
Bechuanaland in the Cape Colony, do you think cLS 
that the fact of that country coming under the wiiiou-hby. 
control ot the white people of this Colony has con- juiy 10, 1908. 
duced to help the native to be more moral in his 
conduct, and generally is he a better man than he 
was under his chief ? — I would answer either yes 
or no. or both. I will tell you what I mean. If 
you take the present as the ultimate, it has un- 
doubtedly conduced towards immorality. It has 
lowered and not raised the native. But I think 
the present is merely a temporary phase in a 
general advance and general development, and 
if you can look forward to the ultimate future 
I am far from losing heart with the present 
difficulty. I think it is a difficulty which often 
occurs in a family when the boy gets to be 16 — 
you emerge out of peace into disquietude — 
but very often at 25 he is a sterling good fellow 
after all ; and I think you have something similar 
in the development of these tribes. So taking it 
in the long run, Bechuanaland is advancing. But 
if you tell me there is to be no future and that I 
must judge as if the present were the final end, I 
sav it is wrong to have educated the Bechuana at 
all. 

12/4. With regard to the cultivation of their 
lands, you know they have a lot of tribal lands 
which they cultivate annually ? — Yes. 

1275. Do you not think it would be desirable for 
the Government to give them some information as 
to the way those lands should be cultivated ? — I 
do not think they would listen to it. 

1276. Is it not a fact that they will cultivate the 
same piece of ground every year for perhaps 25 
years without any manuring ? — It is not true in the 
Protectorate, but in Colonial Bechuanaland they 
have no room to move and they do as you say. 

1277. You think in the interests of the people it 
is desirable they should get some instruction ? — I 
think it would be desirable if they would take it, 
but I do not think they would take it. 



200 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

TOiSm' (^ ^ S s t a 9 e the Chairman returned, and Colonel 
chaiiS Stanford vacated the Chair.) 

Willoughby. 

July 10^ 1908. 1278. Mr. van Rooy.] Are the Bechuanas a par- 
ticularly indolent people ? — Yes, I should say they 
are distinctly more indolent than any other Bantu 
tribe in South Africa. 

1279. Are there a good many going out to work 
amongst farmers for instance ? — There are very 
few going out to work amongst farmers. Quite a 
large number go to Kimberley and the Rand. I 
think the general verdict, as far as I can gather, 
is that they are the least valuable of all the labourers. 
I understand the word has gone forth from the 
Rand that Bechuanas need not apply. I do not 
know whether that is true. I had it in the course of 
railway conversation. 

1280. Do those who get into towns like 
Kimberley behave well there ? — You are speaking 
from the industrial standpoint ? 

1281. Yes — those that have had industrial 
training ? — The difficulty with the Bechuana is the 
difficulty practically of all the low races. They 
have no power to stick at it ; they must have 
change. A boy is in your service for a few 
months, and then, for the mere love of change, 
without any cause, he will leave you and go next 
door and work for some one else for perhaps the 
same wages or less, and, it may be, knowing 
perfectly well the one next door is not as good a 
master as you. They must be constantly moving. 

1282. Are they addicted to drink and so on ? — 
No ; I should say that is not one of their weak- 
nesses. When it comes to native beer and big 
festivities, well they carry a lot, but if it is a 
matter of European liquor I think the prohibition 
laws are fairly well carried out in the Protectorate 
and in the Colony. I do not mean there is none 
going on. 

1283. I mean those in a place like Kimberley ? — 
When they get into a place like Kimberley and do 
not go to the compound, and when they get into 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 2()l 

Johannesburg, where they have the open com- The Rev. 
pound, it is very serious. The Bechuana prefer to ciS? 
send most of their boys to Kimberley because of : wiiioughby. 
the closed compounds, for there are terrible j u i y 10, 1908, 
temptations on the Rand where there are no closed 
compounds. 

1284. Is there no other vice thej^ are very subject 
to ? — You are thinking of sexual immorality and 
the like ? 

1285. Yes? — The whole sexual morality of the 
Bechuana is extremely low ; there is no doubt 
of that ; and especially in Colonial Bechuanaland. 
Syphilis and the like is rampant everywhere. It 
is quite useless to shut one's eyes to facts of that 
kind ; they are patent to every one. 

1286. Mr. de Kock.] Is not that the reason given 
why they refuse to employ these people in some 
places ? — I have not heard that. 

1287. Mr. W. P. Schreineri] Can you give us an 
idea when education in any practical form began 
in Colonial British Bechuanaland ? — When Robert 
Moffat started his mission work at Kuruman, 
roughly 100 year ago, school work began imme- 
diately. Wherever one of our missionaries goes 
reading and writing is immediately taught. Of 
course we can make no progress in teaching 
religion if they cannot read the Bible, and although 
at first there is no Bible to teach yet he sets to 
work at once to begin it and to prepare them for 
reading ; so in the sense of reading it began from 
the moment Robert Moffat started. 

1288. In a very simple form ? — Yes. 

1289. Nothing regulated ? I mean purely accord- 
ing to the idea of the minister or missionary in 
charge ? — Yes. More often than not the mission- 
ary's wife teaches reading. 

1290. I suppose practically it was the same 
system until the annexation in 1885 to the Empire ? 
— That made no difference to education, nor has 
the Colonial annexation. 

L291. Since 1895 it has been under the Colony 
system? — It has made 110 practical difference to 
native education. 



202 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1292. You have had financial aid since, have you 

gmS n °f ? — Practically not. Scarcely any of our schools 

wiiioTjgfhbv. receive financial aid from the Government. To be 

July ioTi 90s. precise, two do, — I mean outside our institution — 

Kuruman and Taungs. 

1293. In regard to the Bechuanaland Protecto- 
rate, do you trace any different condition with 
regard to native education there from Colonial 
Bechuanaland ? Is it further advanced or less 
advanced ? — Further advanced. 

1294. In Khama's country ? — Not particularly 
Khama. I should say perhaps at present the best 
schools we have are at Bathoeng's, and probably 
Mochodi schools are rather better. Khama's in- 
fluence has quite gone. There was a time in his 
country when I was at Palapye that we had a 
central school with about 300 pupils, all fee- 
paying, taught by a certificated English teacher up 
to Standard V., and we had 1,000 to 1,200, and 
sometimes even more, in what we called shelter 
schools, where they were being taught by natives 
with no proper qualifications, but who could teach 
reading and writing, and we had them housed in 
booths all through the towns ; but the difficulty is 
the people get tired of everything. 

1295. They are fickle ? — I do not think so ; it is 
the inability of a low degree of civilization to 
stick to it. 

1296. What impulse brings them together in those 
numbers? — I think the children are anxious to 
learn reading and writing, and with very little 
encouragement from their parents they will come 
to school. 

1297. So there is that inclination amongst the 
children ? — I think so, and more so amongst the 
girls ; we have at least two girls to every boy. 

1298. You have scarcely had time to judge of 
the effect of education on the children when they 
reach manhood and womanhood, since the Euro- 
pean system of control ? — The European system of 
control has practically no influence whatever on 
any phase of Bechuanaland education, whether it 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDFCATIOX. 20$ 

be Colonial or Imperial. During the last few years The Rev. 
the Imperial Government has given a small grant- chlSS 
in-aid of elementary education in the Protectorate, wnioughby. 
It is very small, and has not had much influence r j u iy 10.1908. 
but it is in the right direction. 

1299. In that part of the country we should not 
be wrong in saying mission effort is the only thing 
that has worked, and is working, for the education 
of the people ?— That is quite true. 

1300. Whether it has worked to the best advan- 
tage is another thing to be considered, but it is the 
only force ? — Quite so. 

1301. And you do not despair about this bring- 
ing about good results ? — Do you mean good educa- 
tional results ? I do despair of that. I do not 
think there is very much hope of educating the 
Bechuana tribes by purely missionary effort with- 
out Government supervision. It is not merely the 
financial aid : it is a matter of regulation and 
supervision. It is a huge matter to get an 
inspector who can do the work, especially if he 
does not understand the language. 

1302. Chairman.'] Do not they understand Sec- 
waiia V — Xo. Our inspector in Bechuanaland is a 
thoroughly good fellow, and has done a lot for 
education, but he does not know the language. 

1303. Mr. W, P. Schretner.] You must have an 
inspector to test it ? — It is not only the testing of 
the inspector, but his advice and the way in 
which he can guide the teacher ; and then the 
knowledge that the inspector may come to-day or 
next week on a surprise visit, and the certainty 
that lie will come before the year is out, is very 
beneficial. 

1304. All this has been lacking ? — Yes. Even if 
impossible to give financial grants to the low- 
grade Bechuanaland school, I still think inspection 
would be a very valuable measure of assistance. 

1305. You said that from the work that has 
been done in that way greater utility has resulted r 
although you would not say greater industry. In 



204 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The > Rev. what way do you mean greater utility ? — The boy 

chaSS or girl is a little more clever in doing work and in 

wiiiougiiby. understanding what is wanted ; for instance, to 

juiy io ; 1908. give a simple illustration, a boy in a kitchen will 

not break so many cups. 

1306. You quite believe in the gospel of work as 
being the ultimate salvation ? — Yes, both for black 
and white. The lower the race the more necessary 
the work. In the higher races, if there is no work, 
a man makes work for himself, along public lines 
or something of that kind. 

1307. You regard education as necessary not only 
as a matter of trust but in self-defence ?— I should 
put it both ways. I think it is necessary as a 
matter of common honesty, as a matter of trust, 
but I think the strong reason is for the improve- 
ment of the State and the preservation of our own 
boys and girls, and also as the most economical 
method of administration, the alternative being 
military. 

1308. Do you find at present any, or many. 
Bechuana students who are fit for what you know 
as the education to be provided in the Inter- State 
College ? — The Inter-State College is absolutely 
useless to the Bechuanas, and will be for the next 
twenty years. 

1309. You are not so far advanced as to make it 
a practical question in your case ? — It is not a 
practical question to us. I sympathise with it, 
however ; I am far from being antagonistic towards 
it as far as the rest of the country is concerned. 

1310. How do you train your teachers for your 
Bechuanas ? — I am afraid we do not train them. 
The few we have are not trained. 

1311. You spoke of a divorce having been 
decreed by a native chief in the case of a marriage 
that was solemnized by a marriage officer. That you 
say is a fact. Who has upheld the validity of that 
divorce — the magistrate ? — No ; it was a case 
that was tried before the judge in Maf eking. 

1312. At the Circuit ?— Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 205 

1313. It has never been decided in any Court ^? u |^ 
you are aware of that a native chief can divorce chaiiS 
persons married by a magistrate ; you do not know wnioughby. 
of any case? — I do not know of any case of that juiy 10, i9os„ 
kind. The law of Bechuanaland, so I am informed, 

ivS that all civil jurisdiction is in the hands of the 
chief. 

1314. Mr. tie Kock.] That is only his own 
people ? — That is only his own people. 

1315. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] You do not know 
that where a native has been married under the 
European system by a European officer the 
marriage has been annulled? — In the case referred 
to they were married by a European marriage 
officer. It was not a question of the chief divorc- 
ing them, as far as I can recollect, but the question 
of the High Court deciding it had no standing. 

1316. You do not know that a Court has decreed 
that a chief's divorce of a marriage solemnized by 
a European marriage officer would be valid ? — No. 

1317. Chairman.] Do any of your Bechuanas go 
to other institutes after being in yours ? — Yes. 
The position of affairs is somewhat unsatisfactory. 
At present the native institutions are too much in 
the position of competing for scholars, and the 
Mocwana is thoroughly convinced that every 
native institution wants the honour of having his 
boy ; and the result is when one attempts to en- 
force discipline at all strictly one is met at once 
with the information that they will just go else- 
where. I should say nothing tends so much 
towards lax discipline in our institutions as the 
ability of a boy not liking the discipline to leave 
and go to another one. 

1318. Can anything be done to effect an arrange- 
ment between the institutions to prevent this ? — I 
do not see what can be done under the present 
arrangements. Of course with maintenance grants, 
where you have to deal with normal students and 
apprentices, you can refuse to allow it. It is 
difficult to deaL with. If it were possible to make 
the institutions territorial it would be a distinct 



206 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. point in advance. If we could confine them to the 

chaSS denominations or districts represented it would 

wiikmghby. tend towards discipline, although that is difficult. 

July io7 1908. 1 am convinced we want far more discipline in our 

institutions than we have at present. 

1319. Mr. W. P. Sehreiner.] At what age do 
they begin to go to school — boys and girls ? — We 
have some scholars at Tigerkloof at present who 
are 25 and 26 and are in Standard II. When a 
Bechuana boy gets to be 18 or 19 or 20 he begins 
to think for himself. His old father, perhaps, has 
carefully prevented him from going to school, but 
at that age he thinks for himself. We find quite 
a number going to work and earning enough to 
pay for one }^ear's schooling, and they begin at the 
bottom, although they can generally read their 
own language. 

1320. Is it the same with the girls ? — No ; they 
are always young. 

1321. Mr. Murray.] There being such a very 
great practical difficulty in getting inspectors who 
know Secwana and at the same time are otherwise 
capable of being inspectors, do you or do you not 
think that difficulty might be met by the inspec- 
torate tending to the examination in Secwana, 
although it is done by the teacher ? — I do not 
think he would get at the true inwardness of the 
class, would he ? I am afraid not. 

1322. Up to Standard III. it is chiefly a matter of 
reading and dictation ? — Yes. 

1323. And of being asked to explain what they 
have read in English and Secwana ? — One of the 
things that I think is most necessary in teaching 
the Bechuana English is by translation, and I 
think one of the greatest services the inspector can 
render in testing the amount of knowledge that a 
boy has of his subject is in seeing his ability to 
read the text-book in one language and tell him 
the meaning in another. 

1324. I should say an intelligent inspector, just 
by watching, could see pretty well whether he 
was reproducing satisfactorily ? — If he did not 
know the language, do you mean ? 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 207 

1325. Yes ? — The Mocwana is never at a loss for '% Re- 
words. He will go on glibly whether right or chiSS 
wrong. If it were impossible to have an inspector wmoughby. 
knowing Secwana, I would still say, let us have one j u i y 10, 1908. 
knowing English, though the ideal would be one 
who could inspect in Secwana. I have one or two 
other points I would like to bring before the Com- 
mittee. I have a note here concerning English read- 
ing books for native schools. One of the greatest 
wants in the teaching of English to native scholars 
is a series of suitable reading books. Of really 
first-class reading books for English scholars there 
is no lack. But they are not suited to the require- 
ments of native scholars. They deal with a life 
that is so foreign to the native mind as to be often 
incomprehensible. An English reading book for 
native scholars should deal with the life that the 
scholar knows. It should contain good translations 
of some of the folk-lore stories and proverbs ; 
sketches of veld-life and of tribal history ; and, the 
higher numbers especially, should contain elemen- 
tarv sketches in moralitv. hvolene. manners, South 
African and English history, geography and even 
grammar, but in all avoiding every word that 
cannot be exactly translated into a Secwana 
equivalent. I make a strong point of that. It 
would be a mistake in writing such a series of 
books, to imagine that the easiest words to an 
English child are the easiest to a native learner of 
the English language, and it should be borne in 
mind that idiom is much more difficult than 
spelling. And yet the books should be so graded 
that they may be used as text-books for spelling 
and dictation in their respective standards. The 
series should consist of about four books. The 
market for such a series of reading-books would 
be too limited to make it a commercial success ; 
but it would be a good thing if the Government 
made it worth someone's while to produce such a 
series. I should suggest that that might be done 
by guaranteeing the first edition or something of 
that kind. 



208 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

SS,? ev - 1326. Chairman.'] That applies simply to reading 

Williain , -, -xr 
Charles DOOKS ?— YeS. 
Willoughby. 1327 Would it apply tQ Qther sub j ects ? _I think 

July 10. 1908. n ot. I have not appreciated the want of it so much 
in other directions as in regard to reading books. 

1328. Not in arithmetic ?— No. We have a first- 
class arithmetic we have already published, and 
we had hoped to produce some of these things, but 
we find it is a financial loss ; we are losing heavily 
on the arithmetic, The reading book I refer to 
here 1 would have complete for spelling, dictation, 
grammar and everything reading books are usually 
used for. 

1329. Is the arithmetic in Secwana ? — Yes. 

1330. A verbatim translation of that into English 
would not be like the ordinary arithmetic book 
used in English schools? — No. It is modelled 
largely on Swan & Sonnenschein's books, but it is 
not exactly the same. 

1331. I suppose you have to use terms which are 
intelligible to the natives ? — Yes. In mental arith- 
metic when I had to be constantly examining our 
schools in the Protectorate I always took cattle 
and calves and poultry and eggs, and things they 
knew about. 

1332. You did not take shares ? — No, nor stocks. 
Then in regard to holidays, it is necessary the 
holidays should not be the same for natives as for 
Europeans. The great holiday seasons of the Euro- 
peans do not appeal to the natives at all, and 
otherwise there are times when the natives would 
wish to have holidays-the ploughing and harvest- 
ing seasons. Manual work for scholars does not 
need such skilled certificated teachers of trades as 
the Department demands. Good intelligent, patient 
workmen of moral stability are quite sufficient, 
even if they cannot pass the higher technical tests 
that our home authorities demand for teachers. 
The code I would suggest as the most useful for 
native schools is the Central African code. An 
abstract of it was published in the "Education 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 209 

Gazette." I think the Central African code would ^ e ? ev - 
be the best thing I have seen for native schools. chaSS 
It was drawn up by Mr. Henderson, I hear. wnioughby. 

1333. You say that is the best thing you have juiy 10, 1908. 
seen ? — The very best. 

1334. Are you referring now to experience in the 
Colony or in South Africa ? — I have only seen the 
code on paper. I mean, this, as a paper code> 
strikes me as the most suitable thin^ for the schools 
I have experience of in the Colony. 

1335. You are not speaking merely as a theore- 
tical speculator ? — Do you mean with regard to the 
code ? I have had no experience of the code. 

1336. You are speaking with reference to your 
actual experience of the schools in the country? — 
Exactly. With my knowledge of them, and 
having seen that code on paper, I feel quite sure 
that that is the code that would do us the most 
service. I think you have touched on every other 
point I wished to mention. 



Tuesday, 14th July, 1908. 



PKESENT : 
Mr. Feemantle (Chairman). 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 

The Rev. Dr. Walter Benson Rubusana, Ph.D., 
examined. 



Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



1337. Chairman.'] What is your position ? — lam The Rev. 
a Congregational native minister at East London. ^B e Sn ter 

1338. Where were you educated ? — At Lovedale. Rubusana, 

1339. You were afterwards in England, were P ^?' 
you not ? — Yes. July u, 1908. 

1340. You hold the degree of Doctor of Philo- 
sophy ? — Yes. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. p 



210 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1341. What university is that ? — The McKinley 
'Benson 61 University in the State of Louisville, United 
Ru £usana ; States of "America. 

1342. Is it an Ethopian university or a white 
July i4 ? 1908. university ? — It is a coloured university, but there 

are some Europeans in the Senate of it. 

1343. Did you study at this university ? — No. 
This was an honorary degree conferred upon me. 

1344. For what reason ? — For research. I had a 
book published dealing with the history of South 
Africa, and had to see the printing of the Kafir 
Bible through the Press in England. 

1345. You say it was published ? — That book is 
published, and is being sold in the country now. 

1346. Could you say who the publisher is ? — It 
was published at the Selwood Printing Works in 
Somersetshire. 

1347. Has there been a considerable sale for that 
book in South Africa ? — Yes. 

1348. Has it passed out of the first edition? — 
The first edition is nearly finished, and I am pre- 
paring the second edition now. 

1349. This was an honorary degree which was 
conferred upon you in recognition of your work ? 
—Yes. 

1350. Where were you born? — At Somerset East, 
in the Cape Colony. 

1351. Have you much acquaintance with the 
Transkei ? — Yes ; I have been all over the 
Transkei, so to say. 

1352. Have you schools under you at East 
London ? — I have 16 schools under me in the 
Districts of East London, King Williamstown and 
Stutterheim. 

1353. What schools are they ? — They are all 
mission schools. 

1354. Are they for natives or for coloured people 
or for both ? — In two of them I have European 
children, Dutch and Hottentot children, as well as 
Fingoes. 

1355. Mr. van Root/.] Any Germans ? — Germans 
too, yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 211 

1356. No English children? — There are only two The Rev. 
English-speaking children. Benson 

1357. Chairman.] That is two. What about the Rubusana, 
other 14 ? — They are all native and coloured 
cnildren. Jul ? 14 > 1908 - 

1358. Are the native and coloured children 
mixed in all the schools ? — Not in all of them ; I 
think in three of them. 

1359. Does that work well ? — Oh, yes. 

1360. There is no difficulty between the natives 
and the coloured children ? — Not in my schools. 

1361. You are not aware of any difficulty that 
has arisen in that connection in other schools 
besides those with which you are connected? — No. 

1362. Have you got any parents' committees 
with which you consult ? — Yes. I have a school 
committee at every school. There are two or three 
members of the congregation who are appointed 
members of that committee. 

1363. Who appoint them ? — The parents really. 

1364. That is at each school ? — At each school. 

1365. AVhat functions do these committees exer- 
cise ? — Well, they work in conjunction with myself. 
They look after teachers during my absence, and 
school equipment, and act in any cases that arise 
between the teachers and the children. 

1366. Supposing the question arises as to the 
appointment of a teacher ? — That is always referred 
to me. 

1367. That rests entirely with you ? — Entirely 
with me. 

1368. Do you consult the committee ? — In every 
case I consult the committees, and finally the 
name is sent to Dr. Muir for approval. 

1369. The final decision rests with you as far as 
the local arrangements are concerned? — And the 
correspondence. 

1370. There are no parents' committees in the 
Transkei ? — I do not know of that. 

1371. You know about education among the 
natives on this side of the Kei ? — On this side of 
the Kei principally. 



212 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1372. It is suggested by some people that the 

Benson er Transkei system of councils has worked very well 

Ru pjf5 na ' 5 or education, and therefore it would be well to 

have a similar system on this side of the Kei ? — 

July 14, 1908. YeS. 

1373. Have you thought of that ? — I have 
thought if the education clause of the Glen Grey 
Act were applied on this side of the Kei it would 
help the people considerably — but only that clause 
of it. 

1374. Would not that conflict at all with the 
School Board Act? — Well, I was thinking that 
that clause might be inserted in the new Educa- 
tion Bill now passing through the House. 

1375. What advantage do you think would 
come from that ? — We have the difficulty of 
collecting local fees from the people, simply on 
the ground that there is no statutory Act compel- 
ling them to pay school fees. 

1376. You would not apply that to districts where 
the people did not wish it applied? — I would 
apply it everywhere where people wished to have 
a school. 

1377. How would you decide whether to apply 
it or not ? — There are schools in every district on 

' this side of the Kei, and therefore I would make 
that clause applicable to all these districts. 

1378. Supposing a majority of the people were 
not willing to contribute, would you compel them 
to do so ? — Well, I think it would be a matter of 
necessity to have to do that, because the y all want 

_their children educated, and the difficulty is 
merely to get them to contribute towards the local 
support of the teacher. Some, of course, would be 
verv glad to have their children educated for 
nothing. 

1379. You think they would agree to that clause 
being brought into operation ? — If that education 
clause of the Glen Grey Act were applied on this 
side of the Kei, though not the whole Act. I 
do not think there would be much objection to 
that single clause. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 213 

1380. Would you propose there should be a The Rev. 
council, or simply the rate ? — I suggest a school Benson 61 
committee in each district. Ruwna, 

1381. Not for each school, but each district? — 

For each district. Jul y 14 > 1908 - 

1382. How would that be appointed? — By the 
ratepayers. 

1383. You would have them elected by the rate- 
payers ? — Yes. 

1384. That those should act as a sort of school 
board for natives ? — That is what it would be. 

1385. There are no public schools for natives in 
these districts that you are acquainted with? — 
No ; they are all mission schools, and I am 
inclined to think that is a great drawback. 

1386. Why is it a drawback ? — It is a drawback 
in this way, that in all these schools there is a 
tendency to limit the children to Standard V., 
whereas with public schools they would go as 
high as Standard YII. and even take the first 
year's pupil teachers' course. Then, on the other 
hand, there is the matter of denominations. 

1387. This is a matter in the hands of the people 
themselves, is it not ? — Well, I think the Govern- 
ment also should interfere in that matter. 

1388. Why do not . the people start a public 
school ? — Well, the people are more or less depen- 
dent on the missionaries, and the missionaries are 
in favour of denominational schools. 

1389. I understand you are not in favour of 
denominational schools, personally ? — Well, if I 
had my own way I should have public schools. 

1390. Then why do you not start a public school 
for natives ? — I could not do that individually. 

1391. Why not ? — For one thing I do not think 
the Education Office would approve of it. 

1392. Supposing the Education Office said that 
that was not so, would there be any other objec- 
tion ? — I should then only be too glad, because I 
think we have a lot of weak denominational 
schools all over the country whereas if they were 
amalgamated we would have one good strong un- 



214 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. denominational school which would be to the 

Benson 61 educational interests of the people, I think. 

Rubusana. 1393. Would there be any objection to doing this 

except the objection which you think would come 

jui y 14,1 90s. from - the Education Department ?— I think the 

denominational bodies would also object, because 

they are very fond of having these denominational 

schools. 

1394. Would the people themselves object or 
not ? — I do not think there would be a great objec- 
tion if the matter were left entirely to the people. 

1395. Would they be willing to pay the fees ? — 
There is alwa}^s a sort of unwillingness on the 
part of the people, more especially just now, to 
contribute any considerable sum towards local 
fees. 

1396. But do you think it would be possible to 
get the fees out of the people ? — If there was a 
statutory Act to that effect. 

1397. If there was a compulsory Act ? — Yes, 
because as it is now these local fees rest with the 
minister. He has to collect them, and, failing the 
collection, in very many cases the teacher has to 
go without his local salary. 

1398. Supposing there was no compulsory Act, 
as there is no compulsory Act for whites. The 
whites pay their fees voluntarily, but you think 
the natives would not. Would the natives be 
prepared to pay fees ? — The natives are some of 
them trying, but not all, and the difficulty is to 
get at those who will not pay. 

1399. Mr. Jagger.'] JDo you know the terms on 
which a public school can be started for natives 
or coloured children at any time in anv district ? 
—Yes. 

1400. What are the terms ? — I would first of all 
place that school under a committee, as I have 
said, elected by the ratepayers, and then there 
should be a clause compelling people to pay school 
fees. Of course the sum to be paid by parents for 
school fees would rest with the parents. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 215 

1401. You must mean a compulsory attendance The Rev. 
clause, because parents have to pay fees now when Dl B e Ilon ei 
they send children to school. There are very few Rubusana, 
free schools in the country ? — I mean the applica- _! ' 
tion of the Glen Grey Act educational clause. Jul y u > 190S - 

1402. Chairman.'] You mean a public school can 
be started with something like the Glen Grey Act 
clause, but you do not think it can be started 
without that ? — No. We have tried for years. 
The difficulty is you start a school in a heathen 
district where you have only a few Christians. 
The Christians are anxious to have their children 
taught, whereas the red natives are not, and in 
order to increase the attendance to come up to the 
requirements of the Education Office they have to 
go to the red heathen people to ask them to send 
in their children free, so as to get a number which 
will entitle them to get a grant from the Govern- 
ment. That is the difficulty, because directly the 
attendance drops the school is closed. 

1403. Mr. van Rooy.] You mean a tax should be 
levied from the people, as in the Transkei ? — Yes, 
under the Glen Grey Act. 

1404. And portion of this tax would be for the 
purpose of education ? — For the purpose of educa- 
tion, and then the next difficulty is to get sufficient 
money to get the school equipment. Every time 
an inspector comes round and says so many desks, 
so many forms and so many maps are required, if 
this is a denominational school that money has to 
come only from the Christian people belonging to 
that denomination, and although the red heathen 
people may be sending their children to school, 
they go scot free. 

1405. Chairman.] Do you consider the present 
system of native education is successful ? — To a 
certain extent. 

1406. Do you think it is meeting the require- 
ments of the people where you actually have 
schools ? — 1 should not be prepared to propose any 
radical change of the system of education whereby 
the native would be excluded from the ordinary 



216 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

D T - he v? ev "- ^ uro P ean standards, although, of course, there 
Benson 61 may be modifications or innovations. 
Ru p^ na ' 1407. What is the medium of instruction in the 
— ' schools under you ? — English. 
July 14: 1908. 140 8. Not Kafir ?— No. The requirement of the 
Education Office is that the medium of instruction 
must be English. 

1409. Is that satisfactory ?— No. 

1410. What ought it to be? — I consider native 
children should be taught in their mother tongue, 
at least as far as Standards III. or IV., although I 
think that should go concurrently with English. 

1411. You are quite clear in your mind that the 
Education Office expects the medium to be English ? 
— Quite clear, because we have fought that again 
and again. 

1412. How have you fought that ?— We have 
pointed out to the inspectors that these children 
do not understand what they read in English ; it is 
all parrot work. 

1413. Have you represented to the inspectors 
that you wish to teach the children in Kafir, and 
have they refused to allow it ? — Unfortunately, 
most of the inspectors do not speak Kafir, and they, 
of course, would not agree to Kafir being included, 
because they would have to examine in Kafir. 

1414. Have you asked for it ? — I have pointed it 
out to them, so that they might refer it to the 
Education Office, but I have had no reply. 

1415. Have you done that in writing ? — No, just 
verbally. 

1416. You are not aware of a circular that the 
Education Office circulated among the inspectors 
saying that the education in the lower standards 
should be in Kafir ? — No. I have been connected 
with schools for the last 25 years, and have never 
heard of such a circular from the Education Office. 

1417. Would there be any difficulty in teaching 
these different subjects in Kafir ? Take arithmetic, 
for instance ? — That might be taught in English. 
I say Kafir should go concurrently with English. 
Tiie difficulty of the teachers is that not only have 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 217 

they to use English as the medium of instruction, The Rev. 
but they have actually to speak English to the Dr BeSn' er 
children, even of the lower standards, whether Ru p b ^na, 
they understand it or not. _ ' 

1418. Can you teach all the subjects in Kafir ?— J ^ 14 > 1908 - 
No, not all. Some of them are purely English 
subjects, like arithmetic, which you would have 

to teach in English, only there would be no 
difficulty in explaining any of the difficult pro- 
blems in Kafir. 

1419. There would be no difficulty in finding 
words for all those terms that you want to use in 
arithmetic ? — There might be difficulty in finding- 
suitable Kafir terms for fractions and decimals, 
but speaking generally, there would not be much 
difficulty provided the teacher was a properly 
qualified Kafir teacher. That is the difficulty with 
some of our teachers. Kafir is not taught in the 
institutions, and consequently our teachers who 
are supposed to have passed their pupil teachers' 
examination speak Kafir very indifferently, and in 
many cases are even unable to write a letter in 
decent English. 

1420. Would it be difficult to get the teachers 
taught efficiently in Kafir ? — I should suggest that 
in the native institutions these teachers should be 
taught Kafir thoroughly. 

1421. Would that be difficult to arrange, or 
would it not ? — I should not think there would be 
any difficulty. I should say it would be any easy 
thing to get a teacher to teach them Kafir litera- 
ture and history. 

1422. How far do the children go in your schools ? 
j — In my central school they go up to Standard YI. 
and in all the other schools up to Standard IY. 

1423. You recommend they should be taught 
through the medium of Kafir, at any rate up to 
Standard III. ? — Yes, but that should go con- 
currently with English. 

1424. Would the effect of that be that they 
would neglect English, or would it be possible to 
teach them efficiently in English ? — It would be 



218 MINUTES OF 'EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. possible to teach them efficiently in English. It 

Benson 61 would help them to learn English more efficiently. 

Rubusana, They would get a good grounding, and they 

— * would know Avhat they were reading. 

July H, 1908. 1425. You have always been in favour of this ? 

— Yes. 

1426. But you have always had the impression 
the Education Department is not in favour of it ? 
Yes. 

1427. But you have never actually written the 
Education Office ? — I have never actually written 
the Education Office ; I have only spoken verbally 
to the different inspectors. 

1428. You think, with regard to the subjects 
taught, that they ought to be the same in the 
native schools as in the European schools ? — Yes ; 
of course, with some modifications, as I have said. 
For instance, there is the Kafir, and in my mind I 
think the modification or innovation should be in 
the direction of improving the knowledge of the 
native pupils in the practical application of their 
home life— home, industrial and agricultural life. 

1429. Have you seen the Code which is called 
the Central African Code, which was drawn up by 
Mr. Henderson, the principal of Lovedale ? — No, 
I have not. 

1430. But you think that the book education as 
sketched out in the standards for European schools 
is satisfactory for natives also ? — Yes. Of course 
I would add this that I think such a subject as 
hygiene should be taught in the native schools, 
and domestic economy for girls too. Of course, in 
the higher classes sociology might be taught too. 
because it would help to improve their social 
status. B 

1431. Of course the natives you have to deal 
with at East London are in close contact with 
Europeans ? — Yes. 

1432. There the question might be rather more 
difficult in East London than it is in the Terri- 
tories ? — ISiO : I think it would be pretty much the 
same, because even in the Territories the natives 
are in close proximity to the Europeans. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 219 

1433. Supposing you had the subjects taught in The Rev. 
Kafir, would you be able to get adequate text- Benson r 
books ? — There would be no difficulty in preparing Ru *™jg Qa > 
a Kafir text-book. — ' 

1434. Are there such text-books in existence ?— Jnly 14; 1908 - 
Not now, but there are a great many Kafir text- 
books in manuscript. The difficulty, of course, is 

to get money to print them. 

1435. You are satisfied you could get satisfactor}^ 
text-books in all subjects in all standards ? — If 
only certain text-books were prescribed, there 
would be no difficulty in either translating these 
into Kafir or writing original Kafir books which 
would be suitable for these schools. 

1436. Who would write such books ? — There are 
several Kafir students in the Colony. 

1437. Do you have religious teaching in the 
schools under you ? — Yes. 

1438. How much time is devoted to that ? — 
Half-an-hour. 

1439. Is that during the ordinary school hours ? 
— Yes, during the ordinary school hours. 

1440. Half-an-hour every day ? — Not every day ; 
it is sometimes a quarter-of-an-hour. I think it is 
half-an-hour once a week. It is mostly a quarter- 
of-an-hour every day during the other days of the 
week. 

1441. Supposing the schools were public schools, 
would it be possible to get the denominations to 
agree to a scale of religious teaching ? — I should 
suggest if it were a public school that the children 
only be allowed to read a portion of the Scripture, 
without any comment, so as to meet the wishes, 
perhaps, of the different denominations. 

1442. Would that do much good, to simply read 
a portion of the Scripture without any comment 
or explanation ? — It might not. Of course if the 
different denominations were not satisfied with 
that I would suggest each denomination teaching 
the children connected with that particular- 
denomination after school hours. 



220 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1443. Do you think it would be impossible to 

Benson 61 get some simple Christian teaching which would 

Ru p^ na ' be satisfactory to the great bulk of the people ? — 

"- ' To the denominational bodies ; I would not say 

July H, 1908. ^he great bulk of the people. 

1444. You think it would be impossible to ^et 
some general scheme which w T ould be satisfactory 
to all ? — It would be possible as far as the native 
people are concerned, but then again the mission- 
aries would have to be considered. The native 
people, of course, all treat the Bible teaching alike, 
and say it is the same. 

1445. The difficulty would come in with the 
missionaries ? — Yes. 

1446. There would be no difficulty with the 
natives ? — Not with the natives themselves, pro- 
vided it was purely Bible teaching. 

1447. You are aware that in the Transvaal there 
is teaching of that kind actually going on at the 
present time in the public schools? — I am very 
glad to hear that ; I was not aware of it. 

1448. You say you think some teaching in 
hygiene would be a good thing ? — Yes. 

1449. Would the teachers be able to give that 
teaching ? — Yes. A text-book on hygiene would 
help. It would, at any rate, prevent a lot of these 
cases of consumption amongst the natives ; they 
would know how to look after their health. 

1450. Would you recommend that there should 
be inspection in this subject ? — Yes. 

1451. Would that be individual inspection as at 
present, so that each child would have to pass an 
examination in hygiene ? — Quite so. 

1452. You see no difficulty in introducing that ? 
— I see no difficulty. 

1453. And you are convinced it would do good ? 
— Undoubtedly. 

1454. With regard to manual labour, is there 
any manual training in your schools ? — Not in my 
schools. 

1455. Is there no woodwork ? — No woodwork. 

1456. And no needlework for girls ? — Yes, there 
is needlework for girls. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 221 

1457. So the girls have an advantage over the Tb -e Rev. 
boys in that respect ? — Yes. Benson** 

1458. Would it be impossible to introduce any Rubusana, 
manual training for the boys ? — I would be very 

glad if it were introduced, but it would mean the Jul ^ 14 > 1908 - 
Church would have to put up workshops for 
them, and that would entail a considerable cost to 
the Church, and perhaps they would not be able 
to meet the expenditure. 

1459. You said just now you would be in favour 
of modifying the scheme for teaching the pupils 
in such things as agriculture ? — Yes. I would 
propose that we have a simple system of teaching 
the boys agriculture — that is, theoretically in 
school and practically outside of school hours — 
because they are a pastoral as well as an agri- 
cultural people. 

1460. That would be a technical course ? — Yes. 

1461. It would not be connected with the ordinary 
elementary course ? — No. 

1462. You do not think it is necessary to intro- 
duce some manual training in connection with the 
elementary course ? — Decidedly. They should 
learn the simple rudiments of agriculture in the 
elementary course. I think a simple text- book 
would be of great use. 

1463. That would be simply theoretical ? — Yes. 

1464. Would you be able to do anything in the 
way of teaching them the use of a spade, for 
instance ? — Yes. 

1465. That could be done ?— Yes. 

1466. As a practical matter ? — As a practical 
matter. 

1467. You do not think you would have to have 
policemen to bring the children to school ? — Oh 
dear no. 

1468. Could that be introduced in all the schools ? 
— It would be a good thing if it were introduced 
in all these mission schools, because it would 
probably fit them for their after-life. 

1469. With regard to the training of teachers, is 
that satisfactorily provided for at present ? — Not 



222 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. altogether. Of course there is the Kafir, as I said, 

Benson 61 and unless these teachers are well-trained in Kafir 

Rubusana, j think it is all memory work — the passing of 

-1 ' these examinations. It is mostly memory work. 

July h, i9C8. 1470 And the result is, the teachers are not as 

efficient as they might be ? — Yes. 

1471. Are you aware of the regulations for the 
payment of grants for pupil teachers in these 
institutions? — Yes. I think £12 is paid by the 
Education Department for pupil teachers, per 
head. 

1472. Is that paid for all in the institution ? — I 
do not think so ; I think only for a certain per- 
centage. I do not think it is for all the pupil 
teachers. 

1473. How is the selection made? — I do not 
know, not having been a teacher in the institu- 
tions. I have no immediate knowledge of that. 

1474. You think the institutions can provide 
efficiently for the teaching of pupil teachers if this 
alteration is made in regard to Kafir ? — I think so. 

1475. You say the mission schools only go to 
Standard IV., as a rule ? — Yes. 

1476. But some of the schools under you go to 
Standard VI. ? — Only one. 

1477. Is that a mission school ? — Yes, in East 
London. 

1478. Are grants paid for that ? — Very poor 
grants. Speaking generally, the native teachers 
are very poorly paid ; in fact that is one thing 
why some of the young men go as interpreters and 
in the offices of lawyers and other walks of life. 

1479. Some grants are paid for teaching above 
Standard IV. ?— Yes. 

1480. Are the grants paid for giving education 
in the high- school course to natives? — I am not 
aware of that. Of course, the high-school course 
is taken at the institutions. I do not know whether 
those grants are paid there. 

1481. Is adequate provision made for the second- 
ary education of the natives ? — I am afraid not. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 223 

1482. Do you think it is desirable ? — Very Th e Rev. 
desirable, more especially in trie case of young Benson 61 
men who ha,ve marked ability. I think it is de- R^>«^na. 
sirable. because that would have the effect of -1 
stopping them from going out of the country, to Jul ^ 14 ' 1908 - 
America and England, in search of higher educa- 
tion, as is the case just now. 

1483. Do a considerable number go abroad now ? 
—Yes. 

1484. You think that is unsatisfactory, why ? — 
For one thing, they may imbibe the anti- white 
sentiments of the American negro in the Southern 
States, and bring them back into this country, 
which is most undesirable. 

1485. Therefore you think we ought to provide 
a secondary course ? — Yes, and they ought to be 
able to get higher education in the country. 

1486. You think there is an opening for natives 
who receive this higher education ? — Certainly. 

1487. In what capacity ? — I mean to say an 
opening should be made in connection with the 
present native institutions. 

1488. Supposing the natives had received the 
higher education, what work would they be able 
to find ? — They would be able to find work. Sup- 
posing a man took up the law, and became a 
lawyer, there would be no difficulty in getting his 
people to support him. 

1489. You think it is desirable to have natives 
in the professions doing work for their own 
people ? — Yes. 

1490. Are there any other natives you think 
ought to have the higher education ? — Only those 
who have marked ability and those who are pre- 
pared to pay for it. 

1491. At present the Department only pays 
grants for higher education in the form of the 
normal course ; is not that so ? — I do not know 
whether the Education Office paid any grants for 
higher education. 

1492. You are aware there are grants for normal 
course classes ? — I am aware there are classes for 
the normal course and they receive the £12 grants. 



224 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1493. That is the only grant given above the 

D BenIon er elementary course ? — As far as I am aware. 

Rubusana, 1494. Do you think the present system of inspec- 

_1 ' tion is satisfactory ? — I would not say so, because 

July H, 1908. ^ e inspector comes into a school and sometimes 

does not spend much time there. The teacher 

tells him the children have gone through pages 1 

to 200, perhaps, and he may open the book at a 

certain page, and many children who have not 

learnt much may happen to pass, and another 

child who is more capable may be nervous and 

fail, simply through nervousness. 

1495. What would you suggest ? — I would sug- 
gest in cases where the children have proved a 
certain amount of ability the teachers should be 
given permission to push those children on and 
not allow them to wait the whole year until the 
inspector comes round again. 

1496. Do you think the teachers in the native 
schools are sufficiently advanced themselves to be 
able to be entrusted to this work ? — Undoubtedly, 
a good many of them are. 

1497. What would you suggest the inspectors 
should do ? —I should suggest that they spend a 
little time and working in sympathy with the 
teachers and getting the teachers to co-operate 
with them in the work, and getting to know from 
the teachers how the children are in the classes — 
what the ability of the different individual 
children is. 

1498. You think they should continue to 
examine each child individually ? — Certainly, 
because it would enable them to know the indi- 
vidual ability of each child in that particular 
standard. 

1499. This would mean considerable extra ex- 
penditure, would it not ? You would want more 
inspectors? — Not necessarily. Some of the inspec- 
tors sometimes examine two or three schools in 
one day, and it shows what amount of time they 
spend in each school. In very many cases they 
are quite able to examine two schools in one day. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 225 

1500. Do you think the Education Department The Rev. 
is sufficiently in touch with the circumstances of Dr Be™ ter 
native education ? — I do not think the Education R^busana, 
Department altogether knows the circumstances — ' 
of native education, wholly. Jul ? 14 > 1908 - 

1501. How is that, because it has its inspectors 
all over the country ? — As I say, these inspectors 
are in a hurry when they come round, and instead 
of allowing sufficient time not only to meet the 
teacher but also the parents and get them to take 
more interest in the education of their children, 
they simply push through the schools and rush 
on, whereas if they had meetings with parents in 
the location they would be able to know the edu- 
cational wants of that particularly locality. 

1502. It is sometimes suggested it might be well 
to devolve the authority with regard to native 
education on some officer who should be stationed 
in the Native Territories or on the Frontier. Do 
you think that would be a good plan ? — That is to 
say, take it out of the hands of the Education 
Department altogether, or would he be under the 
Education Department ? 

1503. I suppose he would be under the Educa- 
tion Department. He would certainly, of course, 
be under the Minister ? — That is to say, that officer 
would devote all his time to the improvement of 
native education. 

1504. Yes ?— That might be beneficial. 

1505. But you have not thought of it ? — No, I 
have not, but I certainly think it would be more 
beneficial than the present system, because I take 
it such an officer would be in touch with the 
natives. 

1506. As a matter of fact, there are no inspectors 
for purely native schools ? — No. 

1507. They inspect for European schools as 
well ? — Yes. 

1508. And that applies to the training institutes 
as well ? — Yes. 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. q 



226 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

, The Rev. 1509. You think it might be an advantage if 

Benson er there was some one able to devote the whole of 

ftubusana, hi s time to native education? — A great advantage. 

1510. Mr. van Rooy.~] "With regard to the two 
July i4, 1908. schools in East London in which you say there 

are native and white children together, the native 
and white children are mixed? — Yes. Where I 
have white children attending they are the child- 
ren of farmers who are members of my congrega- 
tion living away from the towns ; in fact, some of 
the parents have hardly seen a white minister^ 
and this is not in East London, but in the Stutter- 
heim district. 

1511. You have such white children attending 
from Dutch and German parents ? — Yes. I have 
married many of them, and their children come to 
school like any other children. 

1512. What is the medium of instruction in 
those schools ? — English. They all speak English. 
Outside they speak mostly Dutch and Kafir. 

1513. The white children as well ? — Yes, but in 
school the medium is English. 

1514. All the children understand English ? — 
Not all — just indifferently. 

1515. Is any Dutch being spoken amongst the 
children ? — They do so outside. 

1516. And German ? — They may at their homes. 

1517. And English outside ? — No English except 
in schools. 

1518. You are not very much in favour of the 
teaching of religion in the schools, I understand ?■ 
— I am not at all against the teaching of religion 
in a school, but in a public school where you have 
various denominations represented it would not 
be desirable to teach any particular dogma in that 
school. 

1519. Eeligion is of very great importance 
amongst the native population ? — Undoubtedly. 

1520. It is a great civilizing factor ? — Yes. I am. 
not at all against religious teaching in the schools. 

1521. Is there still a great proportion of heathen 
people in those parts you are interested in ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 227 

1522. By applying the Glen Grey taxation clause Tiie R ev. 
to that part of the country, your idea is that Benson er 
instead of the parents paying the school fees they Rubusana, 
should really be contributed out of that tax? — 

Yes, because it would have this advantage. The Jul ^ 14 ' 1908 - 
Education Department requires for every £1 con- 
tributed by the Government the people must 
contribute 10s. 

1523. But not every one of those paying rates 
would have children attending school ? — Ultimately 
they would have children in school. I would not 
make that a dividing line, because if they have no 
children now they may later on. 

1524. How would you propose to meet the cost 
of text-books in Kafir ? — I should say that if the 
authors of those text-books are not able to pay for 
them the Government should come to their help 
for such as are required in school, anyway, paying 
for the printing of the books, so that the Govern- 
ment would be recouped by the sale of the books 
to the children. 

1525. Do you think there would be a sufficient 
demand for such text-books so as to make it a 
paying undertaking for an individual ? — If the 
individual had capital, it would be a paying' 
undertaking in the long run. In the first sale of 
these books there may be a loss, but in the subse- 
quent editions there would be a profit. 

1526. A re the missionaries doing nothing towards 
agricultural and technical education ? — They are 
doing nothing towards agricultural education. 
Technical training is taken up in the native 
training institutions in the way of carpentering, 
blacksmithing and tinsmithing. 

1527. In what way do you think the ideas of the 
American negroes would be detrimental to the 
natives here ? — In the idea that they might imbibe 
anti-British ideas, which would not be desirable 
for these natives. 

1528. The only difficulty is the relation between 
the white and the coloured? — Yes. In the 
Southern States of the United States they are 



228 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. decidedly anti- white, as I might put it, and it 
D Benson 61 would be very undesirable for our young men to 
Rubusana, imbibe such ideas. 

_1 ' 1529. So having some of these young men going 

July H, 1908. to America for their education you think is most 
dangerous in regard to the relation between 
coloured and white? — Yes. I do not say those 
feelings prevail everywhere in America ; in the 
north of America it is not so bad. 

1580. Where do they go— North or South ;?— They 
go all over the United States of America. 

1531. How often do the inspectors visit your 
schools ? — Once a year. Of course they pay in- 
formal visits now and again. 

1532. Do you not think it better to do away 
with the informal visits and let them do the one 
inspection ? — I think it is doing the native people 
no good as it is, because some of the inspectors go 
more in the way of spies than anything else. 

1533. You do not like the surprise visits ? — I did 
not say I do not like them altogether, but they are 
doing the people no good. 

1534. Colonel Stanford.] What is the amount of 
rate you would impose on the people for educa- 
tional purposes ? — You mean under the Glen Grev 
Act? 

1535. Yes ? — I would say 5s. per head per annum 
would be quite adequate for educational purposes. 

i 1536. And in that way you would include the 
Beds as well as the Christian population ? — Every - 
bod}^. 

1537. How would you have it collected? — Just 
as the hut tax is collected. 

1538. By the Government ? — Yes. 

1539. Then how would those funds be adminis- 
tered ? — I would say those funds would be admin- 
istered by a district committee at which the 
representative ministers of the different schools 
might be present, together with some of the leading 
men of these locations. 

1540. What is essentially the difference between 
this body you recommend and the body that 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 229 

would be properly constituted under the provisions The Rev. 
of the Glen Grey* Act ? — They do not like the Glen Benson ter 
Grey Act, and some of them do not like the name Rubusana, 
of the board. They say it smells very much like _ " 
the Glen Grey Act, and they do not like it on this Jul ^ 14 ' 1908 - 
side of the Colony. 

1541. Although it may smell like the Glen Grey 
Act, you want the educational clause and want 
the funds. What is the difference ? — There is no 
difference really, only in the Transkei you call the 
body a board and on this side a committee. 

1542. Do you think they would be willing to 
collect a large sum of money and hand it over to 
a committee which is not properly legally consti- 
tuted ? — The Magistrate might be the administrator 
or chairman. 1 think the difference between the 
two is the difference between tweedledee and 
tweedledum ; I do not think there is much 
difference. 

1543. The inspectors have very large areas over 
which to travel ? — Very large, some of them. 

1544. And are you aware that the system of 
inspection in operation in the native mission 
schools is just the same as in the white schools ?— -I 
was under the impression that they were paying 
more time to the European schools. 

1545. It is by examination of the inspector : the 
white children have to pass from standard to 
standard ? — That is so. 

1546. And on the general principle you want 
that the tuition of the native children should 
practically be on the same lines as the tuition 
of white children ? — Yes, only, of course, with the 
addition of Kafir. 

1547. What is your reason for the view that you 
think it would be best to have the Kafir language 
as the medium of instruction to the Third and 
Fourth Standards and not beyond ? — I do not say 
it might not be taken beyond those standards, 
because even in these institutions the teachers 
might be taught Kafir, but I certainly think in the 
mission schools it might go to Standards III. or 



230 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. iy. — that is as far as these mission schools go — 

Benson 61 and I take it after that these children would pass 

Rubusana, on to the native institution, where it would be 

Ph.D. t 

_ pursued. 
Jniyu, 1908. 1548. You think you would get as good a train- 
ing and teaching for your children using Kafir as 
the medium of instruction right into the higher 
work? — In conjunction with English. In the 
higher work they might be taught Kafir history, 
Kafir literature and Kafir grammar. Most of those 
Kafirs now speak what I call u dog- Kafir " — very 
bad Kafir. 

1549. I am not speaking so much of the learn- 
ing of their own language as the general educa- 
tional effect of using Kafir as . the medium of 
instruction in the higher work ? — I would not say 
use Kafir as the medium of instruction in the 
higher work, only I say it might be taught con- 
currently with English. 

1550. You have had about 25 years' experience 
of school work ? — Yes. 

1551. What is your opinion of the effect of 
education as it has been given to the native people 
hitherto ? — I think it has been very good. It has 
helped them considerably, and there has been a 
considerable advance, not only in their social life 
but in their religious life. 

1552. Do you think they are better as a working 
people ? — Decidedly. I think a civilized or Chris- 
tianized native is a better worker than the ordi- 
nary raw heathen native. 

1553. How does he compare, do you think, with 
the red Kafir in respect of industrious habits ? — He is 
decidedly more industrious, because his wants are 
many. The wants of a Christianized or civilized 
native are many, and of course, his wants being 
many, he is bound to go out and work in order to 
satisfy them. 

1554. And as to his moral character ? — That is 
decidedly better than that of a heathen native ; 
that is to say, of course, if you keep him away 
from drink and from the vices of some of the 
white people. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 231 

1555. Do you think that he yields more readily The Rev. 
than the untaught man to the vices of civiliza- Benson 63 
tion, or not? — I would not say more readily, but Rubusana, 
of course living with the white man in the towns, — 

it is not liable to be so conducive to his keeping Jul y 14 > 190S - 
good habits, because he sees a lot of the vices of 
these white people, and unfortunately — I suppose 
through no fault of his — he copies them, instead 
of copying the virtues of the white people. 

1556. What would be your estimate of the present 
number of native students from South Africa who 
are in the colleges in the United States ? — I really 
do not know. There might be 100 or more. 

1557. Is that just from the part with which you 
are acquainted ? — Not principally from my own 
part ; that is simply what I have heard. I have 
never really taken the trouble of finding out how 
many there are. This is simply from hearsay 
reports. Those who are in America mostly come 
from Mzimba's people. 

1558. When did this movement begin ? — I think 
as far back as 1902. 

1559. Have you had opportunities of judging of 
the acquirements of these students on their return ? 
— Yes, I have seen some of them, and my impres- 
sion was that their going to America had not 
helped them very much educationally. 

1560. And generally as to their characters and 
views? — I would not say anything about their 
political views, but generally speaking, I do not 
think the going to America has helped them con- 
siderably. For one thing they have not been in 
America long enough to be benefitted educa- 
tionally, and for another reason they have not 
gone to the best negro institutions in America, for 
this simple reason, that most of them when they 
left the country were very low in the school stan- 
dards, some only having passed Standard III. and 
others only having passed Standard IY. ; and 
then, as I sa} T , they have not remained long enough 
to be benefitted educationally. 

1561. Did they have to pay for their education 
in the United States ? — Yes. There is one young 



232 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. man from East London whose father I know. Of 

D Ben^on ter course he has been a member of my church. His 

Rubusana, son was in America, and he was paying for him 

— ' all the time. 

juiy H, 1908. 1562. Mr. Levey.] I take it you are a strong 

believer in agricultural training for the natives? — 

Yes. 

1563. Do you know anything about Booker 
Washington's system ? — Only from reading. 

1564. Do you approve of the principles laid 
down by him ?— Yes ; I approve of teaching these 
natives some handicrafts. 

1565. Of course we all agree that the education 
of the native should be as high as possible, but at 
the present time do you not think it is advisable 
to have an elementary education for the mass ? — 
Supposing in the mass there is a man of excep- 
tional abilities, would you not give him an oppor- 
tunity of rising ? 

1566. Certainly. I am talking about the mass ? 
— The masses are getting elementary education just 
now. 

1567. And also getting higher education. I say, 
do you not think it would be sufficient to go to 
a low standard with the elementary education ? 
— No. I believe the present standards are all 
right, although I am no great believer of standards 
myself in teaching, because they encourage cram- 
ming too much. 

1568. Do you not think it would be a good thing 
to raise the status of teachers ? — Yes. 

1569. To give them an increased salary and put 
them in a better position ? — Decidedly. 

1570. Do you not think it would be a good thing 
if teachers had to pass an elementary examination 
in agriculture ? — Yes. I am a great believer in 
agriculture. 

1571. And make that the chief point in the 
education and raise a man accordingly who dis- 
tinguished himself in agriculture ? — Yes. 

1572. He would become a teacher of agriculture 
in his school ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 233 

1573. Do you not think it would be a good thing, The Rev. 
where practicable, for the Government to cut out Benson 61 
a small piece of ground as a garden for teaching Rubu^na, 
the schools in the locality, where the schools, in 
charge of a teacher, should spend at least one day Jul ? 14 > 1908 - 
a week at the place — simply to teach them the 

use of the spade, in digging, trenching, planting 
fruit trees, growing wheat, potatoes, and so on ? — 
Yes, just as they are teaching needlework. It 
would be a very good adjunct to the school where 
that could be done, sowing seeds and grafting trees. 

1574. To imitate the German peasant ? — Just so. 

1575. What will be the result of this education ? 
Say we will have 100,000 natives educated and grow- 
ing up who know nothing about agriculture ? What 
will become of them in 20 years hence ? — That is 
the great question just now, because, as I have 
said before, the natives are a pastoral as well as an 
agricultural people, and with a view to their after- 
life it would be decidedly better for them to be 
taught agriculture. 

1576. You do not believe in book-learning? — 
That is not good for them when it is alone. 

1577. You are aware in India we have had a 
good deal of trouble with the educated Indians. 
They have been taught a good deal of book- 
learning and no work, and they have been 
clamouring for appointments, which the Govern- 
ment could not give them, and they have been 
rebellious. Do you think the same thing may 
happen here ? — Naturally when he is educated he 
wants an outlet. 

1578. And rather than starve he would become 
a revolutionist ? — That is the natural course. 

1579. You think it is in the true interests of the 
native that he should be taught to earn his bread 
by the sweat of his brow ? — Certainly. 

1580. Is there any opening for educated natives 
at present ? — Not many. Just now they go in for 
being teachers because, unfortunately, that is the 
only opening they have. 



234 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rer. 1581. And they are badly paid ? — Yes. 
Dl BenIon 6r 1582, You believe in raising the status of the 
Rubusana, teachers ? — Yes. 

_1 ' 1583. They go to that now because they have 

July u, 1908. nothing else to do ? — Yes, and sometimes some of 
them take up the teachers' course for only a couple 
of years, or leave after Standard YI. They say 
they do not see why they should spend a lot of 
time in school when they will only be paid a 
miserable salary for teaching. 

1584. I take it you mean the school should be 
under the Government and the different districts 
should not control their different schools ? — It 
would be desirable, and there would be the saving 
of a lot of money, because at the present time there 
are too many denominational weak schools in the 
country and competition between the churches. 
It is very undesirable that the education of the 
children should be left in that unsatisfactory way. 

1585. You believe also there is a tendency on the 
part of the natives to unite on that subject ? — Yes. 

1586. Do you remember I had a meeting at Cala 
with the natives and members of many denomina- 
tions, and they agreed to unite all these different 
districts? All the natives agreed, but the mis- 
sionaries were not in favour of it ? — I do not 
remember it, but that is what I said a little while 
ago. 

1587. There is no doubt the natives are prepared 
to follow any good lead the Government will give 
them ? — More especially in education. 

1588. It is not the fault of the natives or the 
missionaries ? — It is the fault of the system. 

1589. The missionaries have done all the spade- 
work in regard to education? — We are under a 
deep obligation to them. 

1590. And we would have had no native educa- 
tion but for them ?— Yes. 

1591. But now it is time we altered our system ? 
— In that way, at any rate. 

1592. The great thing is to teach manual labour? 
—Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 235 

1593. A man who is a hard worker would be a t^J^v. 
better Christian ? — He would be a better man m Benson 
every way. - Rubu^na, 

1594. You were saying the higher educated men — 
would become lawyers, and so on. We have Jul ? u ' 1908 - 
enough lawyers in the Transkei. Do you think 

there would be many opportunities except in 
individual cases for becoming lawyers ? — The 
Transkei is a big area, and I think there would be 
plenty of scope for lawyers. 

1595. In regard to the educational system 
in the Transkei, you know how they raise the tax 
under the Glen Grey Act. They pay 10s. a year 
divisional rate, of which 5s. is spent for education 
and 5s. for roads. You believe in that system ? — 
I believe in the system of taxing the native people 
moderately for the education of their children. 

1596. They would not pay unless compelled ? — 
Not without a statutory Act. I say that from 
experience. We have had a lot of trouble in 
collecting the local fees in support of the teachers. 

1597. Chairman ] What do you mean by the 
local taxation in support of the teachers ? — I mean 
the local fees. 

1598. Mr. Levey.'] Is the committee you suggested 
to control the spending of this money to be elected 
by the ratepayers, with the magistrate as chair- 
man ? — Yes. 

1599. A general educational council for the dis- 
trict ? — Quite so ; and then these native schools 
would be very materially helped by such a board. 

1600. The red people object to such a tax, 
because they do not want their children educated, 
but eventually they would come in ? — Quite so. 

1601. The schools are for their good, and they 
would not take it as a severe tax, because they 
would know it would be for the good of their 
children ? — Yes ; even if against it at first, they 
would eventually fall in with it. 

1602. Mr. Sjhrtiner.'] Where were you educated ? 
— At Lovedale. I had this advantage, that I grew 
up in a missionary's house. 



236 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken befoee the 

D Th w Rev - 1603. Did you take any university examina- 
Benson 1 tions ? — I passed my ministerial examinations , but 
Rufrusana, i (\i& no t g in for a university course. 

— ' 1604. You have gone through a thorough course 

July H, 1908. f mission training ? — Yes. For instance, I have 
taken up Latin, Greek and Hebrew, because that 
is compulsory as far as our denomination is con- 
cerned ; all students have to pass through those 
subjects. 

1605. You are evidently quite a master of 
English. You do not think the teachers who are 
teaching in the elementary schools are masters of 
English? — No. I think there is a fault there. 
Their English composition is very much at fault. 

1606. Also as regards Kafir, they are defective 
in that ? — Yes, very defective. 

1607. As matters stand to-day then, how do you 
think you could speedily introduce everywhere 
the system of teaching through the medium of 
Kafir with advantage to the pupils ? — In all native 
schools there would be no harm in introducing 
Kafir right away concurrently with English. 

1608. We must understand the suggestion I am 
putting to you is the medium to be Kafir. Now, 
with those teachers with such an imperfect know- 
ledge of Kafir, are you prepared to say it would be 
to the advantage of the children to be taught by 
them ? — In the lower standards. These teachers 
who are defective in what I call high, classical 
Kafir would be quite able to teach the children in 
Kafir in the lower standards ; they are sufficiently 
capable of doing that. 

1609. Of course what you would say is the train- 
ing of the teachers should give more encourage- 
ment to the training in their own language than 
it does. You think the system is defective in that 
way ? — Yes. 

• 1610. They get a smattering of English and a 
smattering of Kafir ? — Yes. 

1611. If you come to a point of time under a 
changed system when the children are largely 
brought up in Kafir to the Third or Fourth Stan- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 237 

dards as a medium, do you think they will then The Rev. 
have a disadvantage in regard to their English ? I Dr Be Son er 
understand you to say you think they will have Rubusana. 
learnt more English in that way than under the .- ' 
existing system ? — Yes, for this reason, that I take Jul ? u > l90 *- 
it Kafir will be taken concurrently with English. 
English has hitherto been the medium of instruc- 
tion, and where the children do not understand 
what is said to them in English the teacher is not 
bound to give them an explanation in Kafir, 
because the regulation laid down by the Education 
Office is that the medium of instruction must be 
English and only English must be spoken in 
school. 

1612. You believe then that a child taken 
through the medium of Kafir, with English as its 
co-relative or subsidiary language, would after 
three or four years know not only good Kafir, but 
more English than with the existing system ? — 
Decidedly. 

1613. And you think that is practicable with 
the existing teachers? — Yes. I have done it, 
because I have been a teacher myself for ten 
years. 

1614. You are not quite an ordinary teacher ? — I 
mean to say I know school and teaching life, and 
I think it would be practicable to do that. 

1615. Now in regard to the inspectors, many of 
them do not understand Kafir at all ; only a few 
understand Kafir ? — That is so. 

1616. You feel it to be very important that the 
inspector of Kafir education should at least 
understand Kafir ? — He should at least understand 
Kafir. 

1617. At present it may not be possible. Do you 
think it is possible ? — When I used to be a teacher 
Kafir was taught in the schools, and when an 
inspector came into the school he always got a 
missionary to examine the children in Kafir, and 
he took the report of the missionary as to the 
qualifications of the children — their ability to read 
and write in Kafir — but now that has been dropped. 



238 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1618. Now the inspector on many occasions 

D Ben^on er understands only English, and he does not examine 

Ru p^ a ' through the medium of the teacher, and perhaps 

_1 ' the teacher will not be of the standing to give the 

July i4, 1908. assistance the missionary used to give ? — In all the 

lower standards the teacher would be capable of 

giving him a hand. 

1619. But not as efficient a hand ? — Oh, yes. 
The Kafir taught in the lower standards would be 
very elementary, and the teacher would be quite 
able to do that efficiently. 

1620. You think there should be more done 
through the teachers in the lower classes to arrive 
at the true qualifications ? — Where the inspectors 
do not understand Kafir. Of course it would be 
very desirable if the inspectors for native schools 
did speak Kafir. 

1621. You would not think it healthy to abandon 
inspection ? — No. 

1622. But you would like inspection with a 
thorough knowledge of the language the children 
understand ? — Yes. 

1623. It is because you find inspectors unfor- 
tunately not understanding Kafir that you suggest 
that the teacher might say when a child should 
pass from one standard to another ? — Yes. 

1624. If the inspector both understood the lan- 
guage and had more time to give to the individual 
inspection, you would prefer the inspector to the 
teacher ? — Yes, an outsider, because he comes in to 
inspect the work of the teacher. 

1625. You see the danger of abuse in leaving it 
to the teacher ? — Yes. I would only give the right 
to the teacher in special cases. Where there is a 
smart child I would not debar it from going up for 
another year. Through nervousness, one of the 
best children may not do himself justice. 

1626. You spoke of the suggestion of having a 
separate officer to take charge of native education. 
Do I understand that you would favour, as far as 
you have thought of it, a wholly separate superin- 
tendent of native education, not under the Super- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 239 

intendent-General ? — If that would not increase The Rev. 
the cost it would be desirable ; in fact, I would go Benson er 
further and say it would be a good thing if we Rubusana, 
could have separate school reports for native -1 ' 
children. Jul y u ; 1908 - 

1627. Do you not think that would tend to create 
a certain amount of friction between the general 
education of the country under the Superintendent- 
General and the local superintendent ? — It might 
tend to that, and also to class legislation. 

1628. And even if it did not tend to class legis- 
lation, might it not make education unpopular 
amongst the native people, they thinking they are 
being dealt with separately ? — Quite so. It might 
have that effect. 

1629. So it is not a thing you would like to give 
a hasty opinion on? — No. I am giving my general 
opinion, and do not think the generality of the 
natives would be in favour of it. Of course I am 
only answering off-hand; I have never thought 
over the matter. 

1630. With regard to the position you sketch for 
the missionaries in the future, if the change took 
place and undenominational schools were intro- 
duced, would you take out the missionary from 
the educational work of the native ? — No. I have 
already said that the missionary would co-operate 
with the people. The missionary has hitherto 
carried on the elementary education for the native 
people, and it would not be desirable to do away 
with it. 

1631. It would be a terrible loss to lose the work 
and efforts of the missionary. Whatever their 
differences of opinion and dogma, they are the 
people who have done the work, and you could 
not lose them without great loss to the natives ? — 
No. We would work in conjunction. 

1632. In the places where there are denomina- 
tional schools do you think you could get the 
missionaries to work together on a common 
problem ? — Oh, yes. 

1633. With some common basis of religious in- 
struction as far as the school hours are concerned ? 



240 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. — It would be desirable they should, but I am not 
D Be™n er prepared to say they would all fall in with that at 

Rubusana, once. 

Ph l D ' 1634. You think it would be helpful ?— Yes. 

juiy H, 1908. i635 # To put the schools under a committee with 
a popular element and also the country element, 
and perhaps the Magistrate representing the 
Government ?— Yes. 

1636. Taking it in the districts you are familiar 
with, do you think there would be a great up- 
heaval of native public opinion, especially among 
the red men, if we put, say, 5s. on each hut for 
the purposes of education? — I would not say a 
public upheaval. 1 would certainly say some of 
the red heathen natives, and possibly a few of the 
other natives too—because people do not like 
taxation — might feel a little aggrieved at first, but 
I am sure the generality of them would soon fall 
in with the idea and see the necessity of it. 

1637. If it went through the medium of being 
explained by the missionaries to their different 
people and through the medium of both official 
and headmen explanations to the red people, do 
you think the idea would be accepted ? — The 
majority would fall in with it. 

1638. But it would require a statutory Act ? — 
Yes. 

1639. And it would require that the money they 
paid should be clearly earmarked for education in 
their own locality ? — Yes. 

1640. That scheme would afford an opportunity 
to have elementary education in the book S3nse 
and also to couple it with proper endustrial and 
agricultural training ? — Yes, on a small scale. 

1641. Gradually growing to something better ? — 
Yes. 

1642. You quite agree that the education of no 
man is complete unless he learns some method of 
earning his livelihood ? — Just as I have sail. 

1643. Mr. Jagger.] You were educated at Love- 
dale ?— Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 241 

1644. What was the medium there, from the The Rev - 
lowest standard up ? — It has always been English. D Be™ 161 

1645. There was no compulsion to make English R^sana, 
the medium there, was there ? — Yes there was ; in 

fact we had there what was known as a native Ja]j u ' 1908 - 
court — that is, where a native speaking Kafir, 
even outside the school, was punished. 

1646. It was quite in the discretion of Dr. 
Stewart to use English or Kafir ? — That discretion 
was never used by him if he had it. 

1647. Did he come under the Department then ? 
— Yes ; he was one of the teachers. 

1648. You admit the regulation was nothing like 
so stringent then as now ? — Kafir was not spoken 
at all at Lovedale, so I was under the impression 
it was debarred from the institution then. 

1649. Did you ever hear Dr. Stewart express any 
opinion as to the desirability of making Kafir or 
English the medium of instruction ? — No. 

1650. You do not know that his views were in 
favour of one or the other ? — No. 

1651. You know the vast bulk of the Kafir 
children — and all coloured children, in fact, leave 
school before or at Standard III.? — Yes, and at 
Standard IY. too. 

1652. Is it not so that quite 75 per cent, never 
get beyond Standard III. ? — Quite possible. 

1653. What knowledge of any language except 
Kafir will they have if you make Kafir the 
medium ? — I have said all along it should be taken 
concurrently with English. It is practicable, and 
there would be no difficulty in allowing that. 

1654. How can you manage that? — That is to 
say, you would, have a Kafir book to teach them, 
and you would have an English book too. It used 
to be done when I was a teacher, and the inspector 
examined them in both those books without any 
difficulty. 

1655. Would it not be altogether too big an effort 
for a child to be learning two languages at the 
same time ? — Not at all. What the inspectors did 
formerly with children in Standard I. and in 

[A. 1— *08.] Native Education. K 



242 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. Standard II. was that they simply examined in 
Dl Ben^on ter Kafir, but when it came to Standard III. they 
Ru busana, we re examined in both English and Kafir. They 
learnt their alphabet in Kafir as well as in English. 
July i4, 1908. That is what they did when I was a teacher, and 
even those cards with monosyllabic words were in 
Kafir as well as in English, and there was no diffi- 
culty. 

1656. But would not their smattering of English 
be extremely imperfect under such circumstances ? 
— No. It would have this advantage that if you 
taught them a thing in their mother tongue, and 
then told them how it was expressed in English, 
they would be able to explain it ; whereas now, if 
they have any difficulty in English, English being 
the medium of instruction, the teacher is compelled 
to give an explanation in English, which is like 
teaching an English boy Latin, and when he can- 
not get on with it, explaining that also in Latin. 

1657. How would you do beyond Standard III^ 
when you reached Standard IY. ? What medium 
would you use then ? — These mission schools are 
only allowed to go to Standard IY. 

1658. You said Standard Y. at the commence- 
ment of your examination ? — I said in one of my 
schools it goes as far as Standard YI. After that 
these children would be drafted to the institutions, 
and I suggested in my evidence that Kafir might 
be pursued in the institutions. 

1659. In the same way — concurrently? — Yes. 
They would then read Kafir literature and Kafir 
law and customs. 

1660. Of course you know all authorities on this 
matter are not agreed as to the desirability of 
making Kafir the medium ? — It is a great mistake. 

1661. You know certain of the inspectors, for 
instance, who know the Transkei perhaps as w r ell 
as any white man going, do not agree in those 
views ? — Naturally. I suppose none of them know 
Kafir. 

1662. Would you be surprised to hear one of the 
gentlemen, in any case, knowing Kafir does not 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. .243 

agree with your views ? — I should be surprised, if The Rev. 
he knew Kafir, in his not -seeing the advantages of Be^on 61 
teaching the native children in Kafir. Rubusana, 

1663. Would you not be surprised to hear Dr. 
Stewart himself did not hold those views ?— That Jul ? 14 ' 1908 
Kafir should be the medium of instruction ? 

1664. Yes ? — He was not a Kafir scholar for one 
thing. 

1665. But you will admit he knew the Kafirs 
pretty well ? — He was not a Kafir scholar. We 
have lived among the people, and know their 
feelings, perhaps, more than the missionaries. 

1666. Do you mean to say Dr. Stewart did not 
know the feelings of the people ? — I do not mean 
to suggest that, but I would be curious to know 
there were natives who were against their children 
being taught Kafir. 

1667. As a matter of fact, are not the natives 
extremely jealous that the same advantages given 
to whites should be given to them ? — They are, 

1668. Would not they think a reflection was 
being cast upon them if you made Kafir the 
medium of instruction instead of English-? — That 
is with Kafir only, and not going concurrently with 
English. 

1669. Do you not think, as a matter of fact, if 
you polled the Kafir parents — taking a poll of all 
those whose children are being sent to school at 
the present moment — they would vote in favour 
of English still ? — They would vote in favour of 
English and Kafir and not English only. They 
would vote in favour of the two languages going 
together concurrently. I would like the vote to 
be taken. 

1670. Chairman.'] You are speaking of the edu- 
cated people ? — The Christian people. 

1671. Mr. Jagger.] I am talking of the people 
whose children are at school ? — Yes. 

1672. They would be strongly opposed to using 
Kafir alone ? — Yes, because English is a commer- 
cial language, and they would like their children 



244 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. to know English, because they have to go as 
Benson 61 servants with English people and of course they 
Rubusana, m nst know English. 

Ph. D * " 

-1 ' 1673. Then the only experience you have had as 

July i4, 1908. regards this teaching is experience when you were 

a teacher ? — I have had an experience of ten years, 

and have also heard the desirability expressed by 

parents who were sending their children to schools. 

1674. Mr. T. Searle.] Could you describe, briefly, 
how a native child going to school for the first 
time, and not knowing a word of English is taught 
by the teacher ? — Well, they are taught from the 
ABC card, and told it is a b c, and so on, and some- 
times for a year are being taught that. They 
simply repeat that as a parrot would, and directly 
the teacher begins to go backwards from Z to A 
they do not know where they are. They get so 
used to the ABC method that directly you go from 
one letter to another they do not know where 
they are. 

1675. Then when he learns to read it is in the 
same way ? — Just in the same way. 

1676. He would read o-x ox ? — Yes. 

1677. Surely the teacher would tell him what ox 
was in Kaffir ? — He would. The great difficulty is 
in teachers not making use of the blackboard and 
making the children understand the formation of 
the different letters . 

1678. What you mean is he would know ox in 
English was so-and-so in Kafir, but if he saw the 
Kafir name for ox he would not know it was equi- 
valent to the English word ? — If he knew the 
inkomo in Kafir was the ox in English that might 
help the child. 

1679. He would not know as a matter of fact. If 
he saw inkomo he would not know what it was in 
English ? — He would not know what the inkomo 
was in English until the teacher told him. 

1680. Do you find most progress in the higher or 
lower standards amongst the pupils? — In the 
mission schools? 

1681. Yes? — Yes. They make considerable pro- 
gress in the higher standards. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 245 

1682. Is it faster or slower than in the lower The Rev. 
standards ? — Faster. I do not know the reason Benson 61 

why. Rubusana, 

1683. Is it. perhaps, because the teachers give 

more attention to the children in the higher stan- Jul ? 14 > 190H - 
dards ? — There is that tendency, in order to satisfy 
the requirements of the Education Office and the 
inspector. 

1684. I suppose you have noticed a tendency 
amongst most of the natives who have not had a 
very good education to use very big words in writ- 
ing English ? — There is that tendency. 

1685. How would you suggest that should be 
counteracted ? — Teach them good English composi- 
tion, and teach them the use of ordinary Anglo- 
Saxon words. 

1686. Do you not think something might be done 
in specially drawing the attention of teachers to 
this, and making them understand it is not a sign 
of education to use big words when small ones 
would do ? — It is like this ; it is like an empty 
tub, which makes a great deal of noise because 
there is nothing in it, and you find that is the case 
with many young native students who have only 
had a smattering of English education. 

1687. Mr. Jagger.~] Is it not also the case with 
white people to some extent ? — I am not prepared 
to reply to that. Perhaps they would be justified 
in making use of the long words. 

1688. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you think there is 
any great demand for the higher education of the 
natives ? — I think there is. I would not say there 
is a very great demand at the present time, but 
there is a demand. For instance, some of the 
native youths have got to matriculation. 

1689. You think there should be some establish- 
ment where they can go higher ? — Where they can 
qualify for any of the professions. I know of two 
young fellows who had passed matriculation and 
wanted to turn their attention to the law. They 
wanted to be articled under an attorney for three 
years, according to the regulations for following 



246 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

tW Rev. the profession of the law, and no attorney in the 

Dr. Walter r , t -i , . -, , -, 7 J 

Benson country would article them. 

Rl g^ na ' 16 ^- wiiat is yonr opinion of the Inter-State 

— ' College scheme ? — I would not like to express an 

July n, 1908. opinion on it. We have another scheme — the 

Queen Victoria Memorial scheme — for higher 

education for natives. 

1691. What is the difference between the two 
schemes ?— There is no difference in that both 
schemes are for establishing a school for higher 
education for natives. The Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme was the first that was started 
before the Inter- State College scheme was ever 
thought of, and the idea with the natives was to 
perpetuate the memory of Victoria the Good ; and 
they are against abandoning that idea, because 
they have benefitted largely under the rule of the 
late Queen. That is why they wanted to start, 
and do want now to start, this Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme. Then in 1905 the Native Com- 
mission sat, and suggested an Inter- State College, 
which the Lovedale people got hold of, and they 
look upon the Inter- State College scheme as purely 
a Lovedale scheme ; and that is why the majority 
of the natives are against the Inter- State College 
scheme. 

1692. What is their objection to the Lovedale 
scheme ? — You see their objection is that this 
Inter- State College might eventually be purely a 
denominational scheme, whereas this Queen 
Victoria Memorial scheme would be undenomi- 
national. 

1693. That is their chief objection ? — The chief 
objection is because all the native institutions up 
to the present time have been more or less con- 
nected with the different denominations. Now 
they want a purely undenominational college, and 
that was the idea in their starting this Queen 
Victoria Memorial scheme, which they have still 
in hand ; in fact they are going to have a con- 
vention on it in a couple of months time. 

1694. Is it your idea that this Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme should also be supported by the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 247 

State ? — It should be, because it would benefit the The Rev. 
masses, and the idea of the natives is that some of Dl Benson ter 
their European friends also should sit on the Rubusana, 
board. It is not a purely native thing, but what 
the natives feel is that they should have some Jul ? u > 1908, 
memorial by which they could perpetuate the 
name of the Queen under whose rule they have 
benefitted so largely, both educational^, religiously 
and otherwise. 

1695. Of course the Government is not likely to 
support both schemes, is it ? — Well, this Queen 
Victoria Memorial scheme, at the time it was 
started, in 1902, was brought to the notice of the 
then Government. It was brought to the notice 
of the Superintendent- General of Education and 
brought to the notice of Mr. Joseph Chamberlain 
when he was in the country • so it is an old scheme 
which was not only brought to the notice of the 
then authorities but also of the Secretary of State 
for the Colonies when he was in the country, by a 
deputation of natives which interviewed him when 
he was in Graham stown. 

1696. Which scheme has got the most funds 
collected at present ? — I do not know ; I suppose 
the Inter- State College scheme, but not from the 
natives. 

1697. Mr. Levey. ~\ The natives from the Transkei 
contributed £10,000 did they not ? — I heard that, 
but if a referendum was made to the natives they 
would be distinctly in favour of the Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme. 

1698. Mr. Jagger.] The Transkeian General 
Council has made a contribution of £10,000 ? — 
Without consulting their constituents. It was 
brought before the General Council and, without 
testing the opinions of the ratepayers in the 
Transkei, they forthwith voted that large sum of 
money. 

1699. What authority have you for saying that 
the great majority of the natives would support 
the Queen Victoria Memorial scheme in preference 
to the Inter-State College ? — Look at the last Con- 



248 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. vention. Who were there ? Sixty natives who 

Benson 61 were down as being present were not. Invitations 

Ru^usana, h a( j been sent and they did not attend. I do not 

-1 ' mean to say there are no natives approving of the 

July u, 1908. Inter-State College, but I do say decidedly the 

majority of the natives are in favour of the Queen 

Victoria Memorial scheme. 

1700. What grounds have you for thinking this 
is going to be a denominational affair ? — Simply 
because it is connected with Lovedale, the same as 
if it were connected with a Wesleyan institution 
like Healdtown, or an English Church institution 
like the Kafir institution of Graham's Town. 

1701. It will be at Lovedale, but it is largely a 
State affair ? — Who are the largest contributors to 
the fund ? Is it not a Scotch Society ? I say that 
is the desire, and this will be a denominational 
scheme. 

1702. You are not at all sure it will be a denomi- 
national affair ; in fact it cannot be. Would it not 
be wise to join the two ? — We do not want to 
sacrifice the memorial to the Queen, where the 
natives would be represented. 

1703. Do you not think it would be better to 
unite — as the late Queen would suggest if she were 
here — rather than divide your strength ? — Yes. 
We suggested to the Inter- State College people 
that we should unite, seeing our scheme was in 
existence first, and then we wanted to know from 
them what form the control would take, and we 
were under the understanding that it would be 
largely under the Lovedale people. 

1704. Have you not been undeceived now regard- 
ing that understanding ?— No, except we find in 
the board of control the natives have only two 
representatives to about six Europeans, whereas 
the natives were told at the first that this was a 
purely native institution and they would prepon- 
derate in numbers in the Council. 

1705. A native institution is for the education of 
the young natives? — Quite so. There are now 
going to be denominational hostels in connection 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 249 

with it ; and that is why the natives want the D The ** ev - 
undenominational school. The} r are not against Benson 61 
religion being taught in schools, but they are R^busana, 
decidedly against the different churches making 
the education of the children a battleground. July 14 ' 1908 - 

1706. Is not the fact of there being denomina- 
tional hostels connected with it a sign that the 
college itself is going to be undenominational ? — 
No ; with the natives that shows more than any- 
thing else that that will be a denominational 
affair — that there will be a fight amongst the 
denominational bodies as regards the education of 
the native children ; the very fact of their estab- 
lishing hostels shows that. 



Wednesday, 15th July, 1908. 



PEESENT : 
Mr. Feemantle (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreinei\ 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr: de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



The Rev. Dr. Walter Benson Rubusana, Ph.D., 
further examined. 



The Rev. 
Dr. Walter 



1707. Chairman.'] You say the majority of the 
natives are in favour of the Queen Victoria Benson 
Memorial scheme ? — As far as I am aware. Rubusana, 

1708. But have you any definite knowledge of — 
that ?— Yes, because the Queen Victoria Memorial July 15 ' 1908 
scheme was taken up by the South African Native 
Congress first, and it has been running under the 
auspices of that Congress ever since. 

1709. How much money has been subscribed 
towards it ? — The money is still in the hands of 
the district committees, and has not been sent to 
the central treasurer. 



250 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1710. Do you know how much it is ? — No ; I 

Dr. Walter -, -> . J ' 

Benson COUlCl not Say. 

Ru p™ a ' 1711. Has it been subscribed exclusively by 

-1 ' natives ? — Exclusively by natives so far. 
July is, 1908. i7i2. Have you any idea what it amounts to ?— 
No ; I do not know, because in some cases some of 
the district committees have amounts ranging 
from £30 to £40, and in other £10, £20, and so on. 

1713. Is that in all parts of South Africa ? — The 
whole of Cape Colony. I would not say the whole 
of South Africa. It is a scheme which has, as yet, 
only been taken up by the Cape Colony natives. 

1714. Do you think that the Inter- State College, 
if it is created, is likely to do less than what the 
Queen Yictoria Memorial College would do if that 
were created ? — I would not say that, but I believe 
there is quite sufficient scope for the two colleges. 

1715. Where would you propose to establish 
your Queen Yictoria Memorial College ? — In the 
North, near enough to the Transkei and Basuto 
natives — that is, somewhere beyond Queenstown 
or Tembuland. 

1716. Do you think it would be of advantage if 
the Government sent a commissioner into the 
native districts to inquire into the condition of 
native education ? — Yes ; I think it is absolutely 
necessary that such a commission should be ap- 
pointed. 

1717. What advantage would you expect from 
that ? — Well, they would have the opinion of the 
natives first hand, and they would also have the 
expert opinion of people in the Eastern Province 
who know about natives. 

1718. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] You suggest two 
institutions — an Inter- State College and also the 
Queen Yictoria Memorial College ? — Yes. The 
object of the Queen Yictoria Memorial College, as 
I said yesterday, is really to perpetuate the name 
of Queen Yictoria. 

1719. That is a most worthy object, but what 
would it be ? — It would take up higher education 
for natives. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 251 

1720. And what would the other one do ? — I The Rev. 

• . n j -i , i Dr. Walter 

expect it would do the same. Benson 

1721. Do you really think at this time there is an R^^ma, 
opening for two institutions to take up the higher -1 ' 
education of natives ? — Yes. There are no less July 15 ' 1908 - 
than about 10 or 12 native institutions, and surely 

there would be enough for the two from these. 

1722. Is not that rather a short inference ? At 
what standard do you begin the higher education? 
—The school higher. 

1723. What standard would that be ? — I do not 
know — the school higher standard. 

1724. Do you really think that there is scope for 
two big institutions ? Will not they really be cut- 
ting each other's throats from the point of view of 
native higher education if you have one Inter- 
State College and one Queen Yictoria Memorial 
College ? — I do not think so, because there are 
plenty of students from these different native 
training institutions who would go to both these 
colleges ; and the fact also that there were two 
colleges for higher education for natives would be 
a healthy principle. I think, because not only 
would it help the Inter- State Native College to 
come up to the standard, but it would also help 
the Queen Yictoria Memorial College to do. so. 

1725. Even if it would be a healthy principle, 
do you think it is advisable to divide your 
financial energies, as I might say, in that way ? — 
I think it is practical. 

1726. Is it not better to try one experiment of a 
higher education native college, and not try two 
experiments at the same time ? Is it not better to 
try one and prove it a success, and then go in for 
the other when the time comes ? — I would like to 
point out this Queen Yictoria Memorial scheme is 
purely a native scheme, and the natives would 
feel very sore if they were forced to abandon this 
scheme, because they certainly feel they are under 
a deep obligation to the late Queen, and they 
would like to put up some memorial to her 
memory. 



252 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1727. What does the fund amount to, roughly ? 
Benson 61 — I do not know ; the central treasurer would 

Rubusana, kllOW that. 

J. " 1728. Do you think the contributions which the 

July is, 1908. natives have so worthily made in honour of the 

late Queen's memory would amount to a fund 

which would enable them to endow a new college ? 

— With the help of their European friends. 

1729. Do you think at present that is so ? — This 
Queen Victoria Memorial scheme may not be an 
established fact in the near future, but they feel 
that they must do something towards that direc- 
tion. 

1730. But they do a not propose to establish the 
college until they have funds for that purpose ? — 
Not until they have sufficient funds. 

1731. And you do not suggest they have suffi- 
cient funds at present ? — No, I do not. 

1732. Meanwhile, the Inter- State College has got 
funds for the purpose of establishing this and 
going on with this work, and you are in sympathy 
with that work ? — We are in sympathy with the 
Inter-State College certainly. 

1733. I am only putting these questions so as to 
make it clear you are not desirous of starting a 
new scheme without sufficient financial aid ? —No, 
we would not think of starting a new scheme 
without sufficient financial aid. 

1734. Mr. T. Searle.] I always understood these 
two schemes were rival schemes ? — They have 
been made rival schemes, but realty they are not 
rival schemes. The promoters of the Queen 
Victoria Memorial scheme have never taken up a 
hostile attitude towards the Inter-State College 
scheme. 

1735. But you told us yesterday none of the 
natives who had been invited to the Lovedale 
Convention attended, for that reason — because 
they looked upon it as being a Convention of the 
Inter-State College? — Those natives who have not 
attended the Convention have never been in 
favour of the Inter-State College. They have 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 253 

always been supporters of the Queen Victoria The Rev. 
Memorial scheme, and that being so, they did not D B e ™ tei 
see that they were called upon to attend a Con- Rutmsana. 
vention in connection with the Inter- State College _1 ' 
scheme. Jul ? 15 > 1908 - 

1736. As a matter of fact, some of them had 
actually accepted invitations, but when they 
found it was in connection with the Inter- State 
College scheme they withdrew again ? — No. Some 
of them at this last Convention accepted the 
invitation, but when they understood that there 
was really to be no discussion, and no questions 
asked at this Convention, they withdrew, saying 
u What is the use of our going there, seeing the 
whole thing has been cut and dried by the pro- 
moters of the Inter-State College scheme," and 
naturally they did not go. 

1737. None of these people who contributed to 
the Memorial scheme were contributing towards 
the Inter- State College scheme ? — Oh, yes ; some 
of them have contributed to both. 

1738. Very few though ? — They feel there is 
scope for the two. Even those who are supporting 
and in favour of the Queen Victoria Memorial 
scheme have contributed to the other scheme. 

1739. Then you do not consider them rival 
schemes ? — Not necessarily. 

1740. And you think these people who are 
supporting the Memorial scheme — which you say 
you are not prepared to start at present — would 
support the Inter- State College if it were started 
before the other ? — I am not prepared to say that, 
because they are heart and soul with the other 
scheme. 

1741. Then as far as I can see they are really 
rival schemes, and they are being run against one 
another ? — Well, if there is anything being run 
against the other, the Memorial scheme was the 
first in the field, and the promoters of the 
Memorial scheme thought that this Inter- State 
College was really a rival scheme to their own 



254 MXNTJTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. scheme, because the Memorial scheme primarily 
Benson er originated with the natives, whereas the other 
Rubusana, scheme did not. 

_1 ' 1742. Then you do not think it would be better 

July is, 1908. f or ^he natives to unite their energies on one 

scheme ? I do not say which of the two ? — It 

would have been desirable if that could have been 

done. 

1743. Colonel Stanford.'] When you say that the 
one scheme originated with the natives and the 
other did not, do you think that should be a point 
in the Victoria Memorial scheme which you sup- 
port ? — Natives, like all the other races, are very 
conservative. If they start a thing and make it 
their own scheme, surely they would support such 
a scheme. 

1744. Having started it, you think the prospect 
of your Yictoria Memorial College is a brighter 
one than that of the Inter-State College ? — I would 
not be prepared to say that, because there is this 
to be said, that while the Queen Victoria Memorial 
scheme will get the financial contributions from 
the natives the other scheme has been financially 
helped by European friends. 

1745 And also by the Transkeian General 
Council ? — I made my remark about the Trans- 
keian General Council. This is a contribution 
from the General Council in the Transkei, but 
certainly not from the individual ratepayers^ 
because their feeling has never been tested as far 
as that contribution has been concerned. 

1746. The vote was by their elected representa- 
tives? — Yes, but without the knowledge of the 
people ; it was rushed over the heads of the native 
people. 

1747. Have they not since had time to consider 
any steps to protest, if they desire to do so, against 
the action of their representatives ? — They have 
not protested yet ; they have been passive. The 
natives look upon anything done by the officials 
as final, and that being so they have only been 
passive. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 255 

1748. Do you hold that natives do not protest The Rev. 
if they have a grievance ? — They do, and I have D Be™n er 
heard individual natives in the Transkei protest Rubusana, 
against this contribution. _ ' 

1749. Do you remember publishing in the native Jul y 15 > 1908 - 
press a statement of your views on this question 

of the two colleges ? — Of my own views ? 

1750. Yes? — Yes. There have been statements 
in support of the Queen Victoria Memorial. 

1751. Do you remember stating, in that connec- 
tion, that the Inter-State College must be regarded 
by the natives with a certain measure of doubt, 
seeing that it originated with Europeans and that 
you questioned the genuineness of the movement, 
because your experience had been that the Euro- 
peans did not allow the natives entry into any 
lucrative professions ; they allowed them to be- 
come clergymen and teachers and to enter walks 
of life which did not pay, and you had very 
grave doubt as to whether the movement 
was at all a genuine one and ought to be 
accepted by the native people, for these reasons 
which you gave ? — In reply to that, I have never 
regretted the fact that the Inter- State College 
scheme was started by Europeans. I did not 
express my doubt as to the genuineness of the 
natives getting higher education under the Inter- 
State scheme — not on the ground that it was a 
European scheme at all. I did say that hitherto 
the only people who have been trained from the 
native institutions have been ministers and 
teachers, but it was certainly not because of the 
fact that the scheme was backed by Europeans. 

1752. Do you remember you said, " Let us have 
our own institution controlled by native people, 
without the intervention or presence of white 
people?" — No; I did not say without white 
people. I did say, " Let us have our own scheme," 
and I still think it would be better for the natives 
to have their own scheme with the help of their 
European friends. I am still of that opinion. 

1753. What real reason have you for expressing 
doubt as to the honesty of the promoters of the 



256 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. Inter-State College, and the doubt of higher 

D Benson er education really being given to natives in that 

Eu k£sana, institution ?— Because, as I said yesterday, I have 

-1 ' my views regarding any institution managed by 

juiy 15, 1908. denominational bodies, because I have found that 

they have made a battle-ground of such a place ; 

and the fact of the intention to have hostels there 

has increased my doubts. 

1754. Who are representatives of the people on 
the committee of the Queen Victoria Memorial 
scheme ? — Representative headmen and leading 
men of the country. 

1755. Are you not a member of that committee ? 
Yes. 

1756. And are you not denominational ? — Yes. 
As I said yesterday, I have denominational schools, 
but I would like them to be made into public 
schools. 

1757. How do you know the Inter- State College 
will not be run on undenominational lines? — 
Because it is not an undenominational institution. 
The very fact that there are to be denominational 
hostels proves to a certain extent that it will still 
be a denominational college. 

1758. In any case, supposing your scheme ob- 
tained fruition you would not say all the churches 
should abandon all hold of the students belonging 
to those churches ? — Not at all, but I should say 
they could visit the students after school hours. 

1759. Are you sure that would not be the 
arrangement in the Inter- State College ? — I do not 
know what the arrangement is, but we have ques- 
tioned the supporters of the Inter-State College on 
that very question, and one definition given was 
that this college would be interdenominational ; 
but they have not, as far as I know, taken away 
the suspicion of the people that this college will 
be, to all intents and purposes, semi-denomi- 
national if not altogether denominational. 

1760. Then I take it you keep an open mind on 
the subject? You are prepared to wait and see 
how the Inter- State College develops ? — Certainly. 
As I said, we have been in sympathy with the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 2o7 

work of the Inter-State College, although we have The ? ey -, 
not taken any active part in the support of that Benson 61 

Scheme. Rubusana, 

1761. As a member of the committee, you are — 
unable to tell us what funds you have in hand to- Jul ? 15 > 1908 - 
wards the Queen Victoria Memorial College ? — We 

are now endeavouring to collect the funds which 
hitherto have been in the hands of district com- 
mittees in the country, and until we can get the 
central treasurer to place security with the bank 
we thought it advisable that the different com- 
mittees in the country should keep the funds. He 
is collecting them now. 

1762. Chairman.] Do you think £1,000 has 
been subscribed altogether ? — I really do not know. 
I would not like to say. Some of the committees 
have £10, £20, £o0, and £40 each. We have alto- 
gether about 50 different committees in the 

country. 

1763. Colonel Stanford.] I suppose you recognise 
the recommendation which originally came from 
the South African Native Affairs Commission was 
by no means denominational in any sense ? — Yes ; 
we recognised that it was not denominational. 

1764. Chairman.] Have you anything further to 
say ? — I was going to say as far as European child- 
ren attending native schools are concerned, that 
there is this difficulty in two of my country schools. 
These European children are so very far away 
from the nearest school for European children that 
it is really impossible for them to go to that school, 
and, on the other hand, they are not such a large 
number by themselves as to necessitate the opening 
of their own school, and the parents themselves 
are perfectly satisfied with the arrangement of 
their children attending school with native and 
coloured children, because they have grown up 
with them. 

1765. How many do you say there are of those ? 
— Not very many. There are only five in one 
school, and in the other I do not suppose there are 
more than three or four. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Educationi S 



258 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 1766. Have you anything further to say ? — If the 

Benso n er Committee would allow me, I wanted to speak on 

Rubusana, the question of the salaries of native teachers. 

_ ' We have been losing a good many of the native 

juiy 15, 1908. teachers, simply for the reason that their salaries 

were so very small. The ordinary salary paid by 

the Education Department to a fully certificated 

teacher who holds a third-class pupil teacher's 

certificate is £30 on the average. Well, that works 

out something like £2 or £2 10s. a month. 

1767. That is the grant ?— That is the grant. It 
is really less than any of these natives would get 
from a lawyer, or even if they went into service as 
domestic servants. Then with regard to assistant 
teachers the average is about £15, which works 
out something like £1 5s. a month. Well, that is 
not an inducement for these girls to go in for 
teaching, because in service as domestic servants 
they would certainly get from 30s. to £2 as cooks, 
whereas for teaching as assistant teachers they 
only get £1 5s. per month. Of course these grants 
are supposed to be supplemented by local contri- 
butions, but, as I «said yesterday, these local con- 
tributions are very precarious, and sometimes it is 
an utter impossibility for the minister or the 
school committee to collect the school fees. 

1768. Many of these teachers get nothing at all 
except the Government grants ? — Oh, yes, they do. 
This is supplemented by local contributions in the 
way of pchool fees. 

1769. Is it not the rule that the local contribu- 
tion must be 10s. to the Government's grant of £1 ? 
— That is so. 

1770. Does that go to the teacher ? — Yes. 

1771. The real salary is not £30 but £45 ?— What 
I mean to say is this: these fees are never payable 
to the teachers at the end of the quarter, and that 
inconveniences the teacher. 

1772. When are they paid ? — Sometimes after 
the school is closed, and in driblets just as the 
missionary collects the fees from the people. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 259 

1773. But they are paid sooner or later ? — Yes, The Rev. 
and even then the salaries are still very small. D Bemon er 

1774. Colonel Crewe.] Yon have considerable RuWna, 
experience in the up-country schools, have you _ ' 
not ? Do you know anvthing about the Herschel Jul y 15 > 190S - 
schools ? — Yes, I have seen some of them. 

1775. Are vou aware a number of the schools 
have been closing lately ? — No, but I did hear two 
had been closed. 

1776. Because the natives would not pay their 
school fees ? — Yes. 

1777. Chairman.] Have you found that in your 
own circuit ? — Yes, we have had that difficulty — 
so much so, as I said yesterday, that in order to 
keep up the number of children attending school, 
so as to fall under the requirements of the Educa- 
tion Office — because without the attendance the 
school is closed — we had to get in children of the 
red heathen Kafirs to attend school free of paying 
school fees. 

1778. There is another reason for closing the 
schools, is there not — that the local contribution 
of 10s. against the Government's £1 is not made ; 
that is the main reason for closing the schools ? — 
That is so, and therefore I suggested the Glen Grey 
education tax clauses should be applied on this 
side of the Colony, so as to meet that. 

1779. You gave evidence yesterday that you 
approve of the system of the Transkeian General 
Council with a view to obtaining taxation for 
education ?— Only that clause, but not the whole 
of the Glen Grey Act. 

1780. You want the pieces of the Act suiting you 
and not those which do not ? — The people do not 
like the Glen Grey Act. They do not even like 
the name of it on this side of the Kei ; but they 
would like the education clause applied on this 
side of the Kei. 

1781. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Do you really know 
why the people do not like the Glen Grey Act ? — 
I have heard them express their views. They say 
they do not like the way it is run. 



260 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Di he i Rev '. 1782. Is it not because they still have the idea 

Benson 01 that it makes them work ? — No. You would find 

ftubu&ana-, that in the Eastern Province they go out volun- 

— " tarily to work. 
Fui y i5,i908. 1733 j) you think they are thoroughly dis- 
abused everywhere of silly notions about the Glen 
Grey Act ? — What do you mean by silly notions ? 

1784. That the labour tax is being enforced ? — 
Oh, no. They were against the labour tax, but 
now they go out to work voluntarily. 

1785. Some of us know a good deal of the views 
of the natives there on the Glen Grey Act. Do 
you think they are all clearly enlightened about 
what the Glen Grey Act means ? — I think a great 
majority of them, more especially school natives. 

1786. You would say that for the whole Colony? 
Whereabouts is your information mostly gathered 
from ? Do you know the Queenstown people ? — 
Yes, Queenstown and King Williamstown. 

1787. And Kamastone ?— Yes. 

1788. And Glen Grey and East London ? — Yes. 

1789. Do you think they all have a clear under- 
standing away from the Glen Grey area itself of 
the alterations that have been made in the original 
Glen Grey Act which have been made to meet the 
reasonable objections of the native population ? — 
Yes. The whole were printed in Kafir and 
circulated amongst them. 

1790. And they read Kafir ? — A good many of 
them do, and I believe a good many of them 
understand the Glen Grey Act as amended. 

1791. But a good man}^ do not ? — Those who 
cannot read. 

1792. That is the objection — that they think this 
Act contains objectionable provisions ? — Perhaps 
those who have not seen the new Act as amended 
and cannot read Kafir may have that idea. 

1793. What do you think yourself as to the 
wider scope of the Glen Grey Act ? Do you think 
you can pick out pieces and say, " We will have 
an education tax, but we will not have any other 
form of local administration " ? — Before the Glen 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 261 

Grey Act is really introduced amongst the natives The Rev. 
in this side of the Kei we should first of all have % e ^son er 
the approval of the people, but seeing that the R^sana, 
people, as it is at present, are not prepared to _ ' 
consent to the application of it, it would not be Jul ? 15 > 1908 « 
the right thing to force it. 

1794. Does not that principle apply to the pro- 
position of compelling them to pay a tax for 
education ? — I think they would willingly do that. 

1795. You would force it on any unwilling per- 
son ? — No, because this tax would be expended in 
the different areas, and they would see the benefit 
of it, because it would go towards helping their 
own districts. For instance, in the King William's 
Town district the tax would be expended on the 
schools in that district. 

1795a. How would you determine in any district 
whether the people wanted to be taxed or not ? — 
By their meetings. 

1796. Carried by the vote of the majority ? — 
Carried by the vote of the majority. 

1797. That would mean a strong fight between 
the school native and the red native ? — No. You 
will agree the school native is working in the in- 
terests of the red native. He is more enlightened 
than his heathen brother, and he is trying to lead 
him to the light, and if he voted in favour of the 
tax it would not be only for his own benefit, but 
also for the benefit of his red heathen brother's 
children also. 

1798. Then you think such a tax should be im- 
posed ? — Such a tax would be justified if it were 
imposed. 

1799. Not only upon him, but upon his red 
heathen brother ? — Upon every ratepayer. 

1800. Colonel Stanford.] Is not the stronger ob- 
jection in the native mind to the land clause in 
the Glen Grey Act, rather than the extensive 
powers which they have under the Council 
system ? — I do not know. Some of them have 
objection to that, and some have objection to other 
clauses. 



1908. 



262 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

D^ h wait'r 1801. What is the objection to the system of 
Benso/ 1 representation on the Council ? — As far as I have 

Rubusana, been ahi e to follow them, they object to the 
principle of headmen to be chosen as representa- 
tives to the exclusion of all the other leading men. 
Directly a man becomes a headman, he is eligible 
for election to the Council, and they say many of 
the headmen are not really the nominees of the 
people. They have been elected by the Magistrates, 
and of course the natives have not protested, be- 
cause, as I said a little while ago, they think that 
it is no good protesting against whatever the 
officials do. These headmen are not in every case 
the nominees of the people, and they certainly 
think before a man becomes a member of the 
District CounciL he should at least be nominated 
by the people — he should get the votes of the 
people. 

1802. Is that your idea now of how the District 
Councils are constituted say in Fingoland or in 
Glen Grey ? — I am telling you the objections. 

1803. Is that your own idea of how the District 
Councils are constituted in Fingoland or the Dis- 
trict of Glen Grey ?— Well, as far as I know, most 
of the members of the Councils in these districts 
are headmen. 

1804. Is this your own view of how they are 
elected — just amongst themselves or nominated by 
the Government ? — I would not say how they are 
elected. I only state the fact that, as far as I 
know, a good many of them are headmen. 

1805. Chairman^]. You would make headmen 
disqualified ? — No ; I would leave it to the people. 

1806. Colonel Stanford.'] Taking a commonsense 
view of the question, do you think the people 
might be brought to realize the value to them- 
selves of the Council system, not only in respect 
of educational requirements but also in regard to 
other affairs which are of moment to them ? — Yes. 
I would say you could lay the whole question 
before them. 

1807. Are you aware of this, that shortly before 
I left the service of the Government I travelled 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 263 

through the whole of the districts and laid the The Rev. 
whole question before the people? — Yes, I re- ^enfon 01 
member. Rubus^ma, 

1808. I understood a great objection was to the -1 ' 
land clause? — I say unless the people met and Jul y 15 > ms - 
discussed the clauses of the Bill it would be no 

use to say it must be adopted, whereas if they 
discussed the clauses with some one to explain 
them it would be more satisfactory. 

1809. Do you really appreciate the educative 
effect that the Council system has had on the 
natives in the Transkeian Territories ? — Yes. Per- 
sonally. I am in favour of several of the clauses of 
the Glen Grey Act. I am now simply voicing the 
feelings of the native people on this side of the 
Kei. 



Mr. James 
McLaren, 



Mr. James McLaren, M.A., examined. 

1810. Chairman.'] You are an inspector of 
schools ? — Yes, inspector of schools in Fingoland. ""m.a 

1811. What districts? — Butterworth, Nqamakwe July 1 "^ 1908 
and Tsomo. 

1812. How long have you been inspector? — 
Eleven years. 

1813. In the same districts ?— I had eight dis- 
tricts when I began inspecting. 

1814. Now you have only three ? — Yes. 

1815. That is in consequence of the growth of 
the schools ? — The growth of the schools, the 
number of children in the schools and the advance 
in the standards of the schools. 

1816. And previous to that ? — I had 15 years 
experience as principal of the Blythswood Training 
and Industrial Institution. 

1817. Mr. Schreiner.] Which years ?— 1882 to 
1897, and from 1897 to now 7 inspector of schools. 

1818. Chairman.] Did you come out to Blyths- 
wood ? — Yes. 

1819. You are well acquainted, of course, with 
the working of the Council system ? — Yes. 

1820. Do you think that it is of advantage to the 
cause of education amongst the natives ? — A very 



264 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James great advantage indeed. The people having to 
x M.A en ' contribute to education take more interest in 
Jul i7i908 ^ucation and more readily send their children to 
' school. The teachers are very much better paid — 
more regularly and punctually paid — than they 
were before, and consequently we have a much 
better class of teacher. Since the introduction of 
the Council system the number of schools has 
greatly increased, and the regularity of the atten- 
dance has improved, and in every way there has 
been very great benefit. The difference between 
the mission schools in the Colony and the abori- 
gines' schools in the Transkei bears out my state- 
ment. In the mission schools in the Colony we 
have a considerably larger percentage below stan- 
dard, and a much smaller percentage above Stan- 
dard IV. than we have in the aborigines' schools. 
I can give you the figures in regard to that. In 
mission schools in the Colony the percentage in 
sub-standards is 61J, and in the aborigines' schools 
in the Transkei the percentage in the sub-stan- 
dards is 56J. 

1821. Have you the figures for Eingolancl 
separately ? — Yes. Then in standards above IY. 
the percentage in mission schools in the Colony is 
2|, whilst in the aborigines' schools it is 3*8 per 
cent. In Fingoland — my circuit — the percentage 
in the sub- standards is 43 \. The percentage above 
Standard IY. is 9. That is including pupil 
teachers. 

1822. Do you work at all in conjunction with 
the Councils in the management of the schools ? — 
Yes. I attend a Council meeting in each district 
once a year — oftener if necessary, but once a year 
as a rule — and give a report of the progress of 
education in the district for the year. I attend 
the next Council meeting nearest after the 
conclusion of an inspection in a particular 
district. I make suggestions to the Councils 
at such meetings as to what steps they may be 
able to take in the way of improving the atten- 
dance at the schools. I have asked them to send 



July 15, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 265 

out a deputation to visit schools at which the Mr. James 
attendance is particularly bad, and the result of x m.a 611 ' 
these visits has been remarkably good in many 
cases. 

1823. You find this enables you to keep more 
in touch with the people ? — Yes. 

1824. Are there any education committees ap- 
pointed by these District Councils ? — Not yet, 
but at the last meeting of the General Council at 
Umtata they passed a resolution in favour of the 
appointment of school committees for each loca- 
tion in districts where the District Councils have 
so decided. 

1825. Is that likely to be brought into opera- 
tion ? — I cannot say. The matter is under the 
consideration of Government, but so far as the 
Education Department is concerned we indicated 
that there was no serious objection to it. 

1826. You say no serious objection ? — I got the 
General Council at Umtata to modify very con- 
siderably the resolution that they had on that 
matter, so as to prevent these Councils giving too 
much trouble to the actual managers of schools — 
the missionaries — and giving too much trouble 
all round. 

1827. Perhaps you would let us know the terms 
of the resolution. Do you think with the resolu- 
tion as it has actually been passed that no great 
amount of friction will occur ? — I think not. 
I can tell you the gist of the resolution at once. 
These location school committees were to have the 
power if they saw fit of making any representa- 
tions to the Superintendent-General in regard to 
the appointment, dismissal or transference of 
teachers in the schools in the locations, and to 
enable them to do so the manager of a school was 
to send a copy of his letter to the Superintendent- 
General proposing any appointment, dismissal or 
transference of any teacher. They were to make 
their remarks on that, if they wished to make any, 
within 10 days, and the decision of the Super- 
intendent-General was to be final. 



July 15, 1908. 



266 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

m'cwT 1828. And how were the committees to be 
M.A. eD appointed ? — By a public meeting of ratepayers. 

1829. They would be exclusively elected by the 
ratepayers ? — Yes. 

1830. Not by the parents ? — Not by the parents 
as such ; ratepayers and parents are practically 
the same. 

1831. Do you think this system will be an 
advantage ? — It will give them a slight say in the 
matter. I do not think it will be a very great 
advantage, neither do I think it will be of any 
disadvantage. The Councils, of course, contribute 
the local funds for running these schools, and it 
seems right they should have some say in the 
management of them. 

1832. The numbers of children at school have 
gone up very much, and are still going up ?— Yes. 
I can give you the figures for the Territories as a 
whole. In the last 15 years we have these figures : 
the number of schools in 1892 was 273, and in 1907, 
770. 

1833. What schools are those ?— " " and " CI." 
schools. The enrolment in 1892 was 15,193, and in 
1907, 45,936. The average attendance in 1892 was 
10,965, and in 1907, 36,211. Then I have the passes 
in the upper standards in the two years : Standard 
III., 1892, 685, and in 1907, 3,550 ; Standard IV., 
1892, 157, and in 1907, 2,282 ; Standard Y., 1892, 32, 
and in 1907, 1,090. In Standard VI. there were 
none in 1892, but there were 5 pupils above stan- 
dard. In 1907 there were 509 in Standard VI. 
Then in the pupil teachers' course, beyond Stan- 
dard VI., there were 350 in 1907. 

1834. You think that the tendency, as shown by 
those figures, is going on ? — Yes. 

1835. To what do you attribute that ? — To the 
introduction of the Glen Grey Act and the work- 
ing of the Council system, to the increase in the 
inspectorate in the territories — there were two 
inspectors in 1892 and now there are six — the work 
that these inspectors have done in pushing the 
matter, and to the nature of the education that we 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 267 

are giving them, for which the pupils, at any rate Mr. James 
in Fingoland, are showing a perfect thirst. m.a/ 1 ' 

1836. You think that this great increase is Jul £ im 
likely to go on at any rate for some time ? — We u y 
cannot have a much larger increase than we have 

in Fingoland, because we have there a very great 
proportion of the pupils of school-going age already 
at school, but in the other territories there is room 
for very great increase in the schools. A little 
compulsion would be very helpful in districts like 
Kentani, Mqanduli, and Elliotdale and others 
where the people are raw and red. 

1837. In the Council districts the people con- 
tribute considerably to the cost of education 
through the rates ? — Yes. For every £1 the 
Government gives to principal teachers the Council 
gives 15s., and for every £1 the Government gives 
to assistant teachers the Council gives 10s. 

1838. But in non-Council districts there is 
nothing like so large a contribution, is there ?— 
No. Most of the districts in the Transkei are 
under the Councils. The districts that are not are 
St. Marks, Xalanga. Pondoland, and, I think, 
Mount Frere. 

1839. Do you think it is possible in non-Council 
districts to make any progress in any other way 
than by introducing the Council system in this 
matter of raising the local contributions? — I do 
not think so. It would be a very great advantage 
indeed, if the Glen Grey Act were applied to the 
districts of St. Marks and Xalanga and Mount 
Frere, as far as the progress of education is. 
concerned. 

1840. Otherwise you do not think it is possible 
to impose an education rate ? — I do not think it is 
desirable, even if it w^ere possible, to break up the 
Glen Grey Act. To my mind the Glen Grey Act 
is working excellently as a whole., 

1841. You mean it would not be well to impose 
a rate before the introduction of the Council 
system into these districts?— I do not think so, 
and I believe these districts are about to be 
admitted into the General Council. 



268 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James 1842. Do you think that the natives show a 
M M.T. en ' capacity for advance at the higher standards as 



July 15, 1908 



much as at the lower standards? — A capacity to 
benefit by instruction in the higher standard ? 

1843. Yes ? — I have been veiy much surprised to 
find how many of my teachers were able success- 
fully to teach Standard Y. and Standard YL, and 
how well the pupils, on the whole, were able to 
meet the requirements of these standards. There 
are some subjects in which the work is not so 
satisfactory as I should like it to be. Geography 
is one, and the reason is that until now we have 
not had sufficiently simple text-books and suffii- 
ciently definite text-books on that subject. I have 
just got copies of text-books that have been pre- 
pared specially for Kafir- speaking and Dutch- 
speaking children in the Colony, " Longman's 
Geography for the Cape standards. Standards IY., 
Y., and YI." The language of these text-books is so 
simple that every native teacher can understand it 
and every native child can be made to understand 
it, and I have no doubt that when these books are 
circulated and used in the schools the difficulty in 
regard to the effective teaching of geography will 
be overcome. History is not very well taught, for 
the same reason, that we have not yet sufficiently 
simple text-books. "We do not examine on English 
history in Standards Y, and YI. ; we examine on 
the history of Cape Colony only. We found the 
pupils were not able to grip on to English history r 
and we did not think it was of very great import- 
ance that they should learn it, but we find they take 
a keen interest in the history of their own country, 
and if we had sufficiently clear and simple text- 
books there is no doubt the history would be 
thoroughly well learnt. 

1844. And the trouble is you have not adequate 
text-books ? — We have not yet, but I have no 
doubt the publishers will publish such text-books 
as required. The composition in English is not as 
good as it is in European schools, but it is every 
day improving. 



July 15, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDICATION. 269 

1845. It is sometimes said that the native mincl Mr. James 
is incapable of advancing beyond a certain very M M.A en ' 
limited standard. Have you found that so in 
your experience ? — No, not in the elementary 
school course, up to Standards IV., V. and VI., 
but I find that the children of the second and third 
generations of civilized natives are considerably 
more intelligent than the children of the raw 
natives ; that is to say, the children of men like 
Mr. Kubusana or Mr. Sihlali, and others, who have 
been brought up in an atmosphere of civilization, 
have much less difficulty in appreciating the work 
of the higher standards than the ordinary native 
child has. 

1846. From that you would be inclined to infer 
that any want of intelligence there may be is due 
to environment and circumstances quite as much 
as to any physiological difference ? — I think it is 
due to heredity — that the child of the civilized 
parent actually acquires at birth some slightly 
improved mental capacity. 

1847. It is heredity which only depends on the 
parents ; it does not depend on the race ? If the 
parents are civilized the children will be born 
civilized, so to speak, according to your theory? — ■ 
If the parents have been educated I think the 
children are born with a rather better intelligence. 

1848. So even if you take a raw native, if you 
educate him his child will have a better chance ? — 
Certainly. 

1849. With regard to the question of the medium 
of education, perhaps you would give the Commit- 
tee your opinions on that point ?— My opinion is 
that both English and Kafir should be used as 
mediums of instruction. 

1850. To what standard ?— Well, that English 
and Kafir should be used together in the low&r 
standards up to Standard III. and English chiefly 
in the higher Standards — IV., V. and VI. — but that 
Kafir should be optional as a medium of instruc- 
tion for purposes of explanation in all standards. 



270 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James 1851. Is that the system which obtains in the 

M M.A en ' schools in Fingoland ? — Kafir is used for explana- 

T n — n n tion. English is used chiefly as the medium of 

Julv 15 1908 

instruction and of examination, and in the very 
best schools that I have English is most used. I 
have three or four schools that stand ahead of all 
the other schools in my circuit — in their success 
at inspection, in the intelligence of the pupils, and 
all round. These schools are remarkable for this, 
that English is insisted upon from the very earliest 
standards. Nothing but English is spoken by the 
children in the school, and nothing but English is 
spoken by them at play outside the school, and 
the results are quite marvellous in these schools 
as compared with the ordinary run of schools. 
The teacher uses Kafir for explanation when he 
sees it is desirable, but the children answer and 
speak and play in English. 

1852. Is that the general system that inspectors 
quite approve of — the teachers using Kafir for 
purposes of explanation ? — I should say so, in the 
Transkei at any rate. I cannot say what the 
practice is now in the Colony, but in the Transkei 
it is certainly the opinion of the inspectors that 
this is the best system. 

1853. Would you approve of using the two 
languages concurrently up to the Third Standard 
and then afterwards, the pupils being sufficiently 
advanced in English, to make English the 
medium ? — Yes. 

1 854. That is in your opinion the best system ? — 
My opinion is that Kafir as well as English should 
be compulsory in all standards up to Standard III., 
and that Kafir should be optional as a medium of 
instruction in the higher standards for the pur- 
poses of explanation. 

'1855. But you would insist on the inspection of 
the higher standards through the medium of 
English ? — I think so. I think there is a very 
great- advantage if the pupil is able to express his 
knowledge in English as well as in his own 
language. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 271 

1856. You think that inspectors ought to be able Mr. James 
to inspect the lower standards in Kafir ? — Not x m.a 611 ' 
necessarily. Jul ~ 1908 

1857. How could they test the proper teaching of 
Kafir if they cannot inspect in Kafir ? — I mean 
they should not necessarily be able to speak the 
language, but it is quite easy for them to test the 
reading and spelling of the language without 
being able to speak it. If they are able to speak 
the language it is a great advantage. 

1858. As a matter of fact, you are a Kafir 
scholar yourself ? — I speak and write Kafir. 

1859. And you have made some study of it ? — 
I suppose I know as much of the grammar of the 
language as any man, but I do not speak the 
language so well as some member or members of 
this Committee. Coming to this country already 
grown up, I have only acquired a limited voca- 
bulary, not as wide a one as those who have been 
born in the country. I use it a great deal ; that 
is, I put a question to a class in English, and if 
they do not understand that, I put it in Kafir. In 
setting the cards for arithmetic in the lower stan- 
dards, I read over the questions on the cards in 
English and then in Kafir. In the upper standards 
this is unnecessary. 

1860. Your great difficulty in regard to the 
subjects of teaching appears to be with regard to 
text-books ? — Yes. 

1861. In the matter of arithmetic it is sometimes 
suggested that there ought to be text-books written 
with a special view to the circumstances of the 
natives. Do you think there is anything in that ? 
— I do not think so. I do not find any difficulty 
in arithmetic in regard to text-books. The only 
subjects in which I find any difficulty in that 
respect are geography, grammar and history. 

1862. In regard to reading-books? — You mean 
English reading-books ? 

1863. Yes? — Well, the publishers are becoming 
more aware of the requirements in regard to 
things of that sort, and I have here a specimen of 



979 



i'l MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr James an excellent series of readers which is now coming 

M.A en ' out, " Nelson's South African Readers," specially 

Jul i7i9os ac ^apted f or native schools. A very great number 

" of the lessons deal with South African and native 

subjects. 

1864. Is it possible to get a satisfactory reading- 
book in Kafir ? — We have at present no very satis- 
factory series. The Lovedale series is out of date. 
A rather better series was printed at Grahamstown 
many years ago, but I think they are out of print. 
They were very badly printed, although very 
carefully edited. An excellent first primer was 
prepared a few years ago by the Revd. J. M. Auld, 
but we want a good Kafir primer double the size 
of Mr. Auld's and three Kafir readers — first, 
second and third. Two different publishers have 
asked me to edit such a series for them, but I 
have not had time. I have tried to get mission- 
aries to do so, and I hope the native ministers or 
some one in the Transkei will write a series of 
Kafir readers to meet our requirements. 

1865. You have nothing to do, as an inspector, 
with the moral and religious teaching of the 
children, have you ? — I have nothing to do with 
religious teaching, but in drawing up specimen 
time-tables for the teachers in my circuit I have 
always left half-an-hour or 25 minutes for the 
subject of religious instruction. 

1866. That is during school hours ?— Yes. 

1867. With regard to the use that is made of 
that opportunity, you have no direct experience ? 
— No. I am afraid that the time is not used as 
well as it might be ; but the managers of the 
Wesleyan schools and the managers of the Church 
of England schools have recently drawn up 
syllabuses of religious instruction for the use of 
their native schools, and they are trying to get 
their teachers to give systematic, regular and 
thorough instruction in Biblical and religious 
subjects. All I can do, and have done, in that 
matter is to provide the time and the opportunity 
for it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 273 

1868. You think it is impossible for the Govern- Mr. James 
ment to do more than that in these schools ? — In M mT* 1 ' 
regard to religious instruction ? Jui - i9Q8 

1869. Yes ? — It would be quite easy for the u y ; 
Government inspectors to examine in religious 
instruction as well as in other subjects, but I do 

not think that the managers of the schools would 
wish this to be done. 

1870. But why not ? — Because the managers have 
their own ideas in regard to what such instruction 
should consist of. For instance, I am a Presby- 
terian. A good many of the managers belong to 
the Church of England, and I do not think they 
would approve of my examination of the pupils in 
religious knowledge. 

1871. It is sometimes said that subjects which 
are not examined by the inspectors tend to be 
neglected by the teachers ? — I am sure that that is 
the case. 

1872. Therefore, if the managers are anxious 
that religious teaching should not be examined by 
the inspector, the result is it tends to be neglected ? 
— I do not say they would have any objection, but 
I am doubtful if they would welcome the inspec- 
tion by an inspector who might not belong to the 
same denomination as the managers did. 

1873. You think teaching of this kind is of great 
importance in the native schools ? — Certainly. 

1874. More important in the native schools than 
the European schools, or about the same ? — Of 
equal importance. At the same time, I may say I 
do not very greatly admire the syllabus of religious 
instruction that has been drawn up for these 
schools. There is too much study of the Kings of 
Ancient Judah and Israel. 

1875. It is too mechanical ? — I think so. I think 
it goes too much into Old Testament history. 

1876. With regard to the teaching of hygiene, is 
it possible to do anything in that matter ? — Well, 
I always insist on a system of ventilation. AYhen 
I go into a school and find the windows shut I 
talk to the teacher about it, and now I very rarely 

[A. I— '08.] Native Education. T 



July 15,1908. 



274 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James find the windows close shut — at any rate when I 
' M.A. en ' am expected ; in fact I then often find the windows 
open on both sides, and there is a draught. What 
I do is to ask the teachers always to keep the 
windows open on one side of the school. One of 
our doctors, Dr. Hartley, has specially interested 
himself in this matter of hygiene, and has had 
meetings of teachers in the district and given them 
lectures in regard to the management of their 
schools — especially as to teaching the children not 
to spit and not to allow dust to lie about on the 
floors, as well as to keep the windows open. 

1877. That is mostly school hygiene, but with 
regard to personal hygiene, which is what Dr. 
Hartley deals with, could it be introduced into the 
schools in any extended way ? — I do not think it 
is necessary to teach it in the elementary schools, 
but I think it is important that the teachers who 
are under training should know the subject, and I 
believe in the books they study for the teachers' 
course there is a section devoted to the subject of 
hygiene. 

1878. Ts that personal hygiene, or school hygiene 
too ? — School hygiene mostly. 

1879. Do you think it would be possible to get 
the teachers to such a state that they could give, 
simple teaching in personal hygiene where neces- 
sary in such matters as those which you say Dr. 
Hartley is dealing with ? — That is more a matter 
of school hygiene. 

1880. You mentioned the matter of spitting ? — 
Spitting on the floor of the school. 

1881. Still it would come under the category of per- 
sonal hygiene, would it not ? — I think if the teachers 
knew the subject, without having it introduced as 
part of the school curriculum, they would be able 
to give a hint and a command to their pupils now 
and then which would be of real practical value. 
I know many teachers are very particular indeed 
about the children coming to school in a cleanly 
condition as regards their person and clothes, and 
there is a very decided improvement in these 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 275 

respects in recent years. The children come neatly Mr .James 
and tidily dressed as a rule, and with hands and L ma^ 
face clean, and most bring rags with them in order Jul — igo8 
to wipe their slates. I think if the teachers are 
well up in the subject it is hardly necessary to 
make it a special subject of inspection in the 
school. 

1882. Is woodwork training in existence in the 
schools in Fingoland ? — Woodwork is taught at all 
the training schools for teachers and the pre- 
paratory schools attached to training schools. 
There is only one training school for teachers in 
Fingoland. It is taught in the training school and 
the preparatory school attached and also at one 
other school in my circuit. I have been anxious 
to have it introduced into all schools having a 
Standard Y. and YI. class. The difficulty is the 
expense. A very considerable outfit of tools is 
necessary — £20 or £30 worth. Then desks to the 
value of £10 or £12 are required, and wood is required 
in very considerable quantity year by year. The diffi- 
culty has been the expense. We have needlework for 
girls in every school.which is taught most effectively 
and thoroughly under the supervision of the 
special instructress in needlework who goes round 
and visits the schools. I have long been looking- 
for some system of manual training for boys which 
should balance the very excellent instruction 
which girls are receiving in needlework — some- 
thing equally cheap and convenient — but I have 
not been able to hit upon anything as yet. I do 
not know what evidence Dr. Muir has given you 
in regard to this matter, but at a vacation course 
which we had at Blythswood some two years ago 
we experimented on a special form of woodwork 
which I thought might possibly prove suitable for 
native schools. 

1883. Was that suggested by Mr. Morrison ? — It 
was suggested in the first instance by myself. 
Then I asked Mr. Morrison to put the idea into 
proper shape. He wrote me a memorandum on 
the matter, and finally we got it organized. You 



276 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr.ffames w m probably have information in regard to it. 
c^aien ^^ idea was to make use of wattle rods — the rods 
July ib 1908 °^ ^ e common hlack wattle — which are to be got 
' plentifully from the Council plantations anywhere 
in Fingoland, and to use a knife, hammer, saw and 
brad and make simple articles resembling some- 
what the bamboo articles made by the Japanese — 
chairs, tables, picture frames, racks, and similar 
things of that kind. We experimented with this 
course of rustic woodwork, as we called it, at 
Blythswood. Every male teacher who attended 
that vacation course went through this course of 
rustic woodwork. They took a keen interest in it ; 
but I was disappointed to find at the end of the 
course, when they were given the opportunity of 
taking home with them the articles which they 
had made, that they did not take them home in 
most cases. They had, of course, their blankets 
and their clothes to carry on horseback and books 
which had been given them at the vacation 
course to carry, and probably they had 
not much room or opportunity for carry- 
ing a chair or table or picture frame 
which they had made at the course ; at any rate, 
very few of the articles were taken with them. 
Then we found this difficulty, that the wood of the 
wattle proved too hard. There was a very great 
deal of noise in putting together the articles with 
the hammer and brad, and it struck me it would 
be difficult to carry on this sort of instruction in 
our existing schools, especially at the same time as 
needlework was going on, because naturally you 
would want the boys to be doing their manual work 
at the same time as the girls were doing their manual 
work, and it would be almost impossible to carry 
on this work in the same building whilst the girls 
were doing their needlework, because of the noise 
and dust and general disturbance. Another means 
of giving manual instruction and training I have 
thought of and recommended was to make each 
child in Standards Y. and YI. make and dry and 
build, say a thousand bricks, or as an alternative, 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 277 

make each pupil quarry and build a cubic yard of ^ r - James 
stone. I have thought of these as possible occu- x m.a!*' 
pations to be introduced. The feasibility of such Jul ~ 1908 
occupations would depend to a considerable extent 
upon the weather, and it would depend to a large 
extent on the teacher. It would certainly be 
necessary in the first instance to send round special 
instructors to show the teachers how to set about 
this work. If they took up that special form of 
work they might begin by building a wall round 
the school ground. We have got a morgen of 
ground surveyed in Fingoland in connection with 
each school, or half a morgen in some cases. 
Almost invariably there is no fence round the 
land, and it has occurred to me it might be possible 
for the pupils to begin by building a brick wall — 
it would have to be unburnt brick — or a stone wall, 
round this, and after doing that they might go 
further and build a work-shop or a house for the 
teacher. The subject of providing a proper 
course of manual training for boys in our schools 
is one that has occupied my thoughts and 
attention ever since I was appointed. 

1884. But you have not yet reached ? — A 

perfectly practicable conclusion. 

1885. You have no definite proposals that you 
could put before the Committee ? — Nothing more 
definite than those. 

1886. I suppose it would involve a good deal of 
expenditure in almost any case ? —Yes, that is the 
difficulty. With manual instruction for boys there 
is almost necessarily a large expenditure. 

1887. It has been suggested that boys should be 
taught the use of the spade, and so on, and that 
digging and trenching and so on might prove of 
some advantage. Do you think that is so ? — Well, 
if you had land for the purpose, conveniently 
situated, that might be a good thing, but, as a 
matter of fact, our schools are perched on stony or 
hard or rocky knolls in the majority of cases, and 
the ground immediately around the school is quite 
unsuitable for di^olng. whilst there is no other 



278 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James ground available unless it is the teacher's own 

M.A. ei1 ' land, which of course is under cultivation. 

Jul i~i9o 1888- You have to inspect a certain number of 

' the institutes, I suppose, or is there only one ? — 

I have the Blythswood Institute in my circuit, and 

latterly I have assisted the inspector in Upper 

Tembuland, whilst he has assisted me in my 

circuit. Now there is a special inspector for 

training schools who will go with each of us to 

our own institutions. 

1889. What is the system of grants for pupil 
teachers in these institutes ? — A maintenance grant 
of T I think, £12 for boys and £10 for girls is paid 
on one -third of the total number of pupil teachers 
under instruction. 

1890. Is it paid to the individual pupil teacher 
or to the institution ? — It is paid to the institution, 
but under the name of a particular pupil teacher. 

1891. Is it earmarked for that particular pupil 
teacher ? — By whom ? By the Department do you 
mean ? 

1892. Yes. Is the £10 or £12 grant supposed to 
go to the individual pupil teacher, or does it go 
into the general funds of the institute ? — It goes 
into the general funds of the institute as a rule, 
but in certain institutes-- 1 do not know in all — 
the fees are reduced in the third year partly on 
account .of this contribution. At Blythswood the 
third year pupil teachers pay one half the boarding- 
fees that the other pupil teachers pay — that is they 
pay £6 instead of £12 a year. 

1893. Does that apply to all pupil teachers, or 
only those who get the grant ?— It applies to the 
third year pupil teachers. 

1894. Does it apply to all the third year pupil 
teachers or only those who get the grant ? — All the 
third year pupil teachers get the grant and as 
many of the second year ones as come within the 
third of the total number. You always begin at 
the top. 

1895. I was going to ask you, on what principle 
is the third taken anc the other two-thirds left ? 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 279 

You say grants are paid to one-third of the total Mr. James 
number of pupil teachers ? — They are paid for one- mjl n ' 

third simplv because funds are not available for _' — inA> 

, t ^ 1-, i July io. i90s. 

more than that. 

1896. How do you select the third ? — Beginning 
at the top. We take the third year pupil teachers 
and then the second year pupil teachers as far as 
they go. 

1897. And the first year pupil teachers ? — None 
of them can get grants ; the grants, as a matter of 
fact, are put under the names of the third and 
second year pupil teachers. 

1898. "Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] The seniors ?— The 
senior pupil teachers, yes. 

1899. Chairman.] Do you know if that is the 
system in all the institutions, beginning at the 
top ? — I believe so. The reason why the grants go 
into the funds of the institution and are not paid 
to the individual pupil teachers is that the cost of 
boarding is much more than the £12 or £10, as the 
case may be. I estimate that in the case of male 
pupil teachers the cost is £16 to £18 per annum, 
and the cost of boarding the female pupil teachers 
is £12 to £14 per annum. 

1900. You think that is a satisfactory system 
except* that there is not enough money ? — The most 
satisfactory system would be for the Department 
to bear the whole cost of the boarding of a certain 
proportion, at any rate, of the pupil teachers, and 
that these pupil teachers should not be required 
to pay any boarding fees. 

1901. And how would you select those? — Begin 
at the top. 

1902. Are there any grants paid for anything in 
the way of secondary education in Fingoland ? — 
No. 

1903. Why is that ? — There are no secondary 
schools. 

1904. Is it that there are no secondary schools 
because there are no grants, or that there are no 
grants because there are no secondary schools ? — I 
do not think the Government has ever given 
grants for secondary schools. 



McLaren 
M.A. 

July 15, 1908 



280 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr James 1905. An individual wanting' to go beyond the 

^cLaren -> 

m.a. ' elementary course has to go into the normal 
course ?— Yes, as far as Fingoland is concerned, in 
fact, as far as the whole of the Territories are 
concerned ; if he wants to go into the higher 
course he must go either to Lovedale or Zonne- 
bloem at present. 

1906. Do you think there is any demand for the 
provision of secondary education for natives ? — 
Yes, most certainly. 

1907. You think the Government ought to con- 
sider the advisability of meeting the demand ? — I 
think so ? — 1 agree entirely with the recommenda- 
tions in regard to that matter of the Native Affairs 
Commission which sat a few years ago. 

1908. You think the time has arrived for con- 
sidering this scheme of a college ? — Yes. 

1909. The college would, as a matter of fact, be 
a school to a great extent ? — It would have to 
begin by doing high -school work. 

1910. Have you heard of the Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme ? — I have read about it occasion- 
ally in the newspapers. 

1911. Do you think it has a considerable backing 
amongst the natives ? — I do not think so. 

1912. Are you aware whether it has any con- 
siderable funds ? — I do not think that it has. 

1913. You think the natives, on the whole, are 
satisfied with the project of the Inter-State Col- 
lege ? — I think so. 

1914. Do you think there is room for two insti- 
tutions of that kind ?— Certainly not. 

1915. You think it would be unwise of the 
Government to support both ? — Very unwise. 
There should be one institution and a strong one. 

1916. I suppose you are in constant communica- 
tion with the Education Department ? — I send in 
reports every week in regard to the schools I 
inspect. 

1917. It is suggested that sometimes the Educa- 
tion Department is not sufficiently in touch with 
the circumstances in the Territories. Do vou 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 281 

think that is a true criticism, or do you think it Mr. James 
is imaginary ?— I do not think so. We send in our M M.A. en ' 
reports of all the schools we inspect week by week — 
and then send in an annual report every year, and u y 
then matters arising by correspondence are con- 
tinually referred to us for our opinion. 

1918. Do you meet the people as well as the 
teachers, or simply the teachers ? — The people very 
often come to the inspections. In some cases so 
many come that we have difficulty in admitting 
them. In other cases they do not come. It de- 
pends very much on the teacher. The teachers 
in some cases do not want the people to come, 
because it will make the children nervous, 
and in other cases they like them to come. 
Very often a large number of people come 
to see an inspection, and if there is room 
they are admitted ; if there is not, they are told to 
wait outside until the lower classes have gone out. 

1919. You were present at the Lovedale Conven- 
tion ? — Yes. 

1920. Do you think that was fairly representa- 
tive of those who were most entitled to speak on 
native education ? — Do you mean the views of the 
Convention as a whole ? 

1921. The general views of the Convention. 
Was it a representative Convention ? — Hardly 
altogether. 

1922. In what way? — I would like to make a 
distinction between the matter of higher educa- 
tion and the matter of elementary education. So 
far as the matter of higher education is concerned, 
I think the Convention can be taken as represent- 
ing the general views of the natives in regard to 
it. So far as elementary education is concerned, I 
doubt if that is the case, because the native dele- 
gates there all belonged to the middle-aged class 
of natives, and the younger men were not repre- 
sented at all ; naturally they are not sent as dele- 
gates of such Conventions. I think the younger 
men would differ very considerably from the men 



282 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James w h were there in regard to some statements that 
M.A en ' were made and some of the resolutions that were 

Jul l7l908 P aSSed - 

1923. It has been suggested that it might be of 
advantage to send a commission or a commissioner 
into the Territories. Do you think it would be 
possible to see enough to do good in that way ? — A 
commission or commissioner for what purpose ? 

1924. For the purpose of inquiring into native 
education ? — I do not think you can get very much 
information in regard to the matter by going 
through the districts, which you cannot get here. 

1925. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] On the subject of the 
Fingo people and their proportion of advance, do 
you regard them as intrinsically better material 
for education, or is it because they have longer 
been devoting themselves to it, or been attended 
to in that respect ? — I do not think they are better 
material naturally than the others are, or at least, 
not much better, but they have always been on 
the side of the Government, and consequently they 
have been more ready to take up what they believe 
to be the wishes of the Government in regard to 
these matters. They believed the Government 
was in favour of education, and they have gone 
in for it. Then the Fingoes are naturally a more 
active and progressive people than the Xosa Kafirs, 
at any rate, and I think in that way are better 
qualified to benefit by our educational system. 

1926. You would scarcely say as yet that there 
had been any time for the principle of heredity to 
operate since the education of the natives has 
commenced ? — All I can say is what I have said 
already — that the children of civilized and educa- 
ted natives are very much superior in their 
attainments, as compared with the others. 

1927. Would you not say exactly the same with 
regard to white people — that the children of an 
educated or cultured white person reflect those 
qualities ? — Certainly. 

1928. And that the children of those who live 
at home without much culture or education in 
early years do not reflect those qualities ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 283 

1929. But when you come later on you find, per- Mr. James 
liaps, the child who has had great disadvantages M M.A en ' 
is as good material as the other, intellectually, if — 
properly handled before it gets too late ? — Yes. 

1930. In other words, do you not think it is the 
environment in their early life with the natives 
rather than anything inherited ? — That has cer- 
tainly a very great deal to do with it. 

1931. You said, with regard to the medium that 
is used, that the three or four schools that you 
regard as your best schools are schools in which 
English is insisted on as the medium from the 
very earliest ? — Yes. 

1932. And the children of those schools show 
the best results ? — Yes. 

1933. Is that simply what you call examination * 
results, or do you see they do really understand 

the languages, English and Kafir ? — They do 
understand the languages. 

1934. Both English and Kafir or only English ? 
— I do not know that they understand Kafir better, 
but certainly a person who knows two languages 
is more intelligent than one who only knows one. 

1935. They would write a better English letter 
than the children trained in Kafii from the start? 
— Certainly. 

1936. Would they write a better Kafir letter ?— 
They would write as good a Kafir letter. 

1937. There would be a balance of advantage, in 
your view, having English in the earliest standards 
as the medium of instruction ? — Yes, but I would 
have both. 

1938. You would have both used, but the direct 
medium would be English ? — Yes, English as the 
medium, of teaching, but Kafir brought in con- 
stantly alongside it for the purpose of explanation. 

1939. Would that be because it is very difficult 
to teach these subjects of thought without the ad- 
juncts of properly prepared text-books and you 
have the text-books in English and not in Kafir ? — 
Partly that, and partly because you have to invent 
a whole new terminology in teaching new subjects. 



284 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James 1940. You have to translate it into something 
m.T* 1 ' which is appropriate in that language ? — Yes ; they 
T , ~ ™ n have no words to express it. 

July Id, 1908. iAjj1 A « x -, . -jr.* 

1941. Or course a new word is quite foreign to 
the young mind, so whether you put it in English 
or Kafir it has to learn a new word and a new 
idea ? — Yes, but in English it is generally a short 
word, whereas in Kafir it would require a long 
expression. I think in teaching arithmetic English 
is by far the best system, for the simple reason 
that the enumeration in the Kafir language is ex- 
ceedingly cumbersome. The word sixteen in English 
consists of two syllables, and the corresponding 
word in Kafir has a dozen syllables It is almost 
impossible to work a multiplication sum in the 
Kafir language. As a matter of fact, when the 
Kafirs are calculating they use their fingers and, 
when those give out, their toes, instead of reckon- 
ing mentally. English is better for working out 
the numbers themselves, although Kafir is the best 
for purposes of explanation. 

1942. You put yourself on the side of having 
both English and Kafir for the lower standards ? 
—Yes. 

1943. You said " optional " ?— Yes. 

1944. Optional to whom ? — To the teacher. 

1945. And leave the teacher to teach the children 
in the best medium suitable to them ? — Yes, but I 
think the medium of examination should be 
English throughout. 

1946. Chairman]. From the first ? — I think so. 

1947. Have you any sub- standards? — Well, what 
we actually do in our schools is that the first year 
of school life in sub-standard A is entirely devoted 
to Kafir, and in the second year in sub- standard B 
a beginning is made with English. We do not 
expect very much English, but still we ask 
questions in regard to the pictures in the little 
primers and try to get them to answer these in 
English. Then we go on to Standards I. and II. 
and ask questions on the lessons they have read 
and try to get answers in English. Since we have 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 285 

adopted this system, which was only a few years Mr. James 

1 , t t * -, J • j.1 McLaren, 

ago, there has been enormous progress m the m .a. 
knowledge of English and in general intelligence. ^ \%m 
Will you allow me to read some resolutions which u y °' 
were come to at a conference of inspectors which 
we had at Butterworth in December, 1903 ? 

1948. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Was that well 
attended ? — Six inspectors — all the inspectors in 
the Transkeian Territories. 

1949. They were not all native speaking? — No. 

1950. How many can speak Kafir ? — In the terri- 
tories. Mr. Eein and I know Kafir well, and I 
think Mr. Tooke knows it fairly. The others, I 
think, are beginners in the matter. 

1951. They are trying to acquire it ? — Yes. 

1952. Chairman.] Mr. Bennie ? — He is not in 
the Territories. He knows Kafir very thoroughly. 

1953. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] He was not at that 
meeting ? — No. 

1954. You had a meeting of inspectors, half of 
whom understood both languages and the others 
were learners of Kafir ? — Yes. We put our views 
in the form of definite resolutions. " On the 
question of standard required in aborigines' 
schools as compared with that for white schools, 
Besolved : that the standard for aborigines' 
schools should be the same as for white schools, 
but that (1) a second English primer should be 
accepted in Sub-standard B. instead of an infant 
reader (2), a knowledge of English history should 
not be required in Standards V. and VI. On the 
teaching of English, Besolved : that it is not suffi- 
cient that the pupils should be taught to read and 
spell English ; the}^must also be taught to speak and 
write English. Oral composition in English should 
therefore be made a school subject from the earliest 
stages. This composition should take the form 
of answers in correct sentences to questions on 
common objects in or near the school, on pictures 
of animals, etc., with which the school should be 
furnished, and on the subject-matter and illustra- 
tions of the reading books. In Standard III. the 



McLaren 
M.A. 

July 15, 1908 



286 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James answers to such questions should be given in 
™M.A en ' writing as well as orally. On the teaching of 
Kafir, Re solved : That ability to read and write 
their own language is an absolutely necessary part 
of education for natives. As Kafir is spelled 
phonetically, the ability to read and write it is 
very easily acquired when once the initial difficul- 
ties have been overcome. These initial difficulties 
are most readily overcome when reading is taught 
by the formation of syllables and words — in 
printed characters — on the blackboard before the 
eyes of the pupils. The use of a new Kafir primer 
which has just been compiled will also facilitate 
the teaching of the elements of the subject." 
Then we drew up what the requirements in Kafir 
should be. 

1955. Do you share the same views ? — Certainly; 
in fact I drafted the resolutions myself. 

1956. Those were the conclusions of experienced 
inspectors after discussion? — Yes. You see our 
conclusions were that English should be taught in 
all the classes, just as in the white schools, but in 
addition Kafir should also be taught, and that is 
my opinion most strongly. 

1957. You maintain that view ? — Yes. In addi- 
tion to the instruction in English they should also 
receive instruction in the vernacular. We have 
plenty of time for it, because there is very little 
work for the pupils in the lower standards to do r 
and they are sitting idle for a great part of the 
day. 

1958. Are your teachers competent to teach the 
two languages equally well ? — Yes, the better class 
of teachers are quite competent to teach English 
after the training we give them. 

1959. It is fundamentally important that an 
inspector should understand the languages used 
as the medium of instruction ? — It is a very great 
advantage to know Kafir. 

1960. It is fundamentally important, if he is 
really to inspect the education that has been given 
in both the languages. A Kafir child, not having 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 287 

grasped English very well, might fail through the Mr. James 
inspector not knowing that the ideas were in his M M.A en ' 
mind, but he could not express them in English ? — 

■XT- July 15, 1908. 

— Yes. 

1961. You must have found you often get a 
good result from such a child when you turn to 
Kafir ? — Certainly. 

1962. So it is very important they should know 
both languages ? — Yes, but I should like to empha- 
sise the extreme success we have had since we 
have not made the use of oral English in the 
lower standards necessary — the wonderful im- 
provement in the intelligence of the pupils it has 
made. 

1963. In regard to the maintenance grants for 
the boys and girls, how do you account for the 
difference in the cost ? — Well, girls eat much less 
than boys, and also in the girls' schools they do 
practically all the cooking themselves, whilst in 
the boys' schools it is not so. 

1964. The girls save in preparing the articles of 
food as well as in the smaller appetites ? — Yes. 

1965. You said there is demand for secondary 
education, Which the Government should provide 
for ? — I think so. 

1966. Do you mean there should be schools es- 
tablished to take education, say, above Standard 
I V. ? Do you stop with Standard IY. in what you 
call elementary education ? — No, Standard VI. 

1967. Do you think all native elementary edu- 
cation should go to Standard YI. in all native 
schools ? — No, only where you have large schools, 
and there is a sufficient and efficient staff to teach 
them. We have definite rules laid down. Stan- 
dard Y. is permitted where you have an average 
attendance of 100 pupils with three teachers, two 
of whom are certificated ; Standard YI. is allowed 
with an average attendance of 125 pupils, with 
four teachers, three of whom, if possible, are cer- 
tificated. 

1968. Secondary education, you would say, 
comes over Standard YI. and below what ? — Stan- 
dard YI. up to matriculation. 



July 15, 1908. 



288 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James 1969. If this Inter-State College becomes an 
M.A 6n ' established fact and a success, does not it really 
provide at present secondary education as well as 
higher education ; could not it be made to provide 
that ? Could not it really include in its scope of 
teaching above Standard VI. ? — Do you mean the 
training of teachers as well ? 

1970. Not the training of teachers, but in the 
scholastic education ? — Certainly. 

1971. Or do you suggest there should be some 
institution between the Inter- State College on the 
one hand and the more advanced elementary 
school on the other ? — No, I do not think so. I 
think the college should begin by doing high- 
school work — secondary education work — and 
when it has produced a sufficient number of 
matriculated students, or students who have 
attained to the matriculation standard, it can go 
on to do proper college or university work in 
addition. 

1972. Are you aware that when I was a student 
at the South Af rican College it was doing secondary 
education as well, and drawing a higher grant ? — 
I know all the colleges were doing that. 

1973. So they have all had to pass through this 
phase gradually — the European colleges as well ? 
—Yes. 

1974. And you think there is no reason for trying 
to make the native college jump at once into the 
full collegiate life ? — Yes. 

1975. If that is so, do you think the Government 
should provide in any other way than by support- 
ing the Inter-State College ; should it support any 
other institution to compete with it ? — I do not 
think it will be necessary for many years to come. 

1976. After the native college has been made a 
success ? — Yes. In regard to the curriculum pro- 
posed for the native college, I might be allowed 
to say a word as to the course of studies. I am 
almost in entire agreement with the promoters 
of the scheme in regard to the course of 
study that is proposed, but I should very much 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 289 

like to see it affiliated with the university JJr. James 
course, leading up to matriculation and beyond. m.a. ' 
I am entirely at one with the promoters in the Jul ~ 1908 
omission of the subject of Latin from the course of 
studies, but I would like to see something included 
which would give the same kind of culture that 
the study of Latin is supposed to give, namely, a 
course in classical literature — reading the best 
Latin and Greek authors in the best available 
English translations. I would like to see that as 
part of the course in the new college. I may say I 
welcomed a resolution that was passed provision- 
ally by the Council of the University some time ago 
making the use of Latin optional for passing the 
matriculation examination, and I have very greatly 
regretted to see that that resolution was cancelled 
at a later meeting. It seems to me if Latin had 
been made optional it would have been very much 
easier for our Inter- State College to affiliate itself 
to the university system than it will be if Latin is 
made compulsory. 

1977. Of course the Inter- State College stands in 
a very detached position anyhow at present : it 
has its spurs to win ? — Yes, but it would be a very 
great advantage if its work were tested and sealed 
by the approval of the University Council — that is 
to say, if it secured passes equivalent to the school 
higher and matriculation passes to begin with. 

1978. With regard to the younger men, you say 
the Convention scarcely represents the sentiments 
of the young, educated native, m because he would 
not be a delegate ? — Yes. 

1979. Are you there speaking of the way in 
which elementary education is controlled ; is that 
specially in your mind ? — No. We have had two 
Conventions. There was a Debe Nek Convention 
and there was the Lovedale Convention. In 
both those Conventions there has been a cry, 
" Let us go back to the syllabus of Dr. Dale," 
and that cry, to my mind, seems extraordinary — 
to return to the old-fashioned and obsolete 
syllabus — and I have been trying to explain to 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. V 



July 15. 1908. 



290 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James myself how that cry might ha ve arisen. It must 
' M.A en ' have been due to fallacies, and it seems to me it is 
like this : at both these Conventions we have had 
middle-aged and not young men, and these men 
are apt to think that what they got themselves is 
better than what their successors are getting now. 
They forget what they have learnt in the interval 
since they left school. They have learnt very 
greatly by the practice of teaching, by attending 
vacation courses occasionally, by getting advice 
and assistance from inspectors, by reading the 
newspapers and books, and by attending public 
meetings and functions of that kind ; so that their 
intelligence now is no doubt greater than that of 
a teacher leaving a training institution now, and 
infinitely greater than when they left school 
themselves. There is another fallacy. Many of 
those men speaking at those Conventions not only 
went through a teachers' course but through a 
high-school course at Lovedale in the old days, 
and several of them actually matriculated at the 
Cape University — men like Mr. Sihlali, Mr. Jabavu, 
and others. A good many also went through a 
theological course. It is quite unfair to compare 
men who went through a Jiigh- school course and 
men going through the teachers' course. Then 
many of those men in the seventies, which they 
always speak about, came into contact with giants 
in the teaching world like Theal, Templeton and 
Andrew Smith, and they got an impulse at that 
time which it would be difficult to get now. Then 
the number of students was small, and they there- 
fore came into closer contact with their teachers. 
I maintain we have now twenty intelligent 
men turned out for every one intelligent man 
that was being turned out at that time. If 
we compare like and like — the teacher who 
took the teacher's course and no more in the old 
days and the one who takes the same now — there 
is no question that the teacher who obtains a 
third-class certificate now is better educated, more 
intelligent, and very much better trained for the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 291 

actual work of his profession, than the teacher of Mr. James 
the old stamp was when he finished his course. M M.A en ' 

1980. Is he a better man? Is he a more Jul ~ 1908 
contented man ? Or has he got bitten with all the u y 

the ideas of an ultra- democratic cult ? — I find the 
young men coming out of our institutions at 
present very modest. 

1981. is that so?— Yes. 

1982. I have heard these ideas expressed, and 
want to know if it is so ? — I think these views are 
more the ideas of the older men. The young men 
come out very quiet, and do not assert themselves 
at all to begin with, in my experience. 

1983. Where do you find more this supposed 
dangerous restlessness, with the high political idea 
— in the older men or the men about 25 or 30— or 
do you not find it all ? — I do not find it. 

1984. Which group goes back to the Dale days ? 
— The older group. 

1985. They seek backwards ? — Yes. 

1986. Is it the younger men who are particularly 
anxious of infusing an element of democratic 
control into the elementary school system by 
way of committees ? — The younger teachers ? 

1987. Yes ? — I do not think the teachers want it 
at all. 

1988. Who is it that wants it ?— The Councils 
want it. They say, " We give the money, and we 
should have a say in the management." 

1989. Taking mission institutions, do you think 
they have done their work in management, and 
that it is time to make a departure in the demo- 
cratic direction ? — I do not think so ; I do not 
think the time has come. 

1990. On the average, do you think the native 
people are sufficiently educated up to the point of 
taking a committee control ? — No ; I think they 
are not. I think their control should be purely 
advisory — just as a safety valve, in order to have 
the right to express their views on a point. 

1991. You spoke of the resolution which has 
been passed in regard to the subject ? — Yes. 



292 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Thursday, 16th July, 1908. 



PBESENT : 
Mr. FKEMANTLE (Chairman), 



Mr. Jagger. 
Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Mr. James McLaren, M.A., further examined. 

McLaren 8 1992. Chairman.] You wish to give us the 
m.a. ' terms of the Resolution passed by the General 
juiy 16^ 1908. Council at Umtata ? — This is it as nearly as I can 
give it. I gave you the main points of it yesterday. 
The resolution was : That in Districts where the 
District Council so decides, a School Committee 
shall be appointed in each location containing one 
or more Council-aided schools, consisting of the 
headman and two ratepayers elected by the rate- 
payers assembled in public meeting for the 
purpose. That the Superintendent -General of 
Education shall be requested to ask the missionary 
superintendents of schools to send copies of their 
letters, proposing the appointment, dismissal or 
transference of any teacher, to this Committee, who 
shall be at liberty, if they see fit, to make any 
representation they may wish to the Superinten- 
dent-General of Education in regard to such 
appointment, dismissal or transference within ten 
days, at the same time sending a copy of their 
letter to the missionary superintendent to enable 
him to answer their criticisms, and that the 
decision of the Superintendent- General of Educa- 
tion in respect of such appointment, dismissal or 
transference shall be final. That the School Com- 
mittee shall be specially charged with the good 
attendance at, and the good conduct of, the school, 
and shall be at liberty, if they see fit, to make any 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 293 

representations to the missionary superintendent Mr - James 
in regard to the conducting of the school by the x M.A. en ' 
teacher or teachers. ~ 1<)03 

1993. Is there anything you would like to say 
about your evidence yesterday ? — The matter of 
grants for training institutions was brought up. 
I had not expected it to be brought up, and had 
not prepared myself to reply in regard to it ; con- 
sequently what I said was probably not very well 
considered. The position in regard to these train- 
ing institutions is just this. The cost of boarding 
a male pupil teacher is somewhere in the neigh- 
bourhood of £16 per annum. In some institutions 
it is more than that, but let us take that figure. 

1994. Is that the average cost for boys and girls ? 
— No ; that is for males. The grants given by the 
Department for one-third of the whole number of 
pupil teachers are of £12 each. The fees charged 
for boarding male pupil teachers are £12, and these 
are the highest fees that can be charged, because 
the pupil teachers cannot afford to pay more. 
Consequently it is necessary for the managers of 
these institutions to use this £12 and distribute it 
over the total number of pupil teachers. 

1995. You mean the £12 grant ? — Yes, so as to 
bring up the full amount that they receive for 
boarding to £16 — what it actually costs. That is 
the position. It is therefore difficult to insist upon 
the managers of training institutions making any 
serious remission of fees for pupil teachers, even 
in the third year ; they have not the funds with 
which they can very well do so. 

1996. Has an attempt been made to insist on their 
reducing the fees ? — An attempt is made to reduce 
the fees in some of the institutions. At Blyths- 
wood, for instance, the third-year pupil teachers 
are taken in, if possible, at half-fee ; but it is diffi- 
cult to get this carried out, owing to the fact that 
the cost of boarding pupil teachers is considerably 
higher than the fees they pay. 

1997. Then I understand an attempt is made by 
the Department to appropriate the grants to 



294 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James individuals, although it is recognized that the 

M M.T en ' expense is considerably greater than the grant ? — 

t i ~ inA , The grants are put down in the names of 

July 16, 190*. . , . A, -, * 

individuals. 

1998. Does not that seem a strange system — that 
you should only get grants for a certain number of 
the pupil teachers and that you should have to 
earmark the grants, although you wish all the 
pupil teachers to be trained, including those to 
whom no grants are made, and when you recognize 
the grant is insufficient to cover the cost ? — The 
object of the Department in this is to get the pupil 
teachers to complete the course. They put the 
grants down in the names of the more advanced 
pupil teachers with the express object to getting 
the pupil teachers to complete their training. The 
further they go in their training the more valuable 
they become. 

1999. There is no grant at all made for the more 
elementary pupil teachers ? — No. 

2000. They are always given for the more ad- 
vanced pupil teachers ? — They are always put 
down in the names of the more advanced pupil 
teachers. 

2001. Not only Blythswood, but all training 
institutions ?— I believe so. 

2002. I wish to have this definitely. If that is 
done, then the Department does nothing whatever 
for the more elementary pupil teachers ? — In the 
way of boarding grants ? 

2003. In the way of boarding grants ? — No. 

2004. What other grants does it make ?— It gives 
grants towards the salaries of teachers. 

2005. Mr. Jagger.] Is it not more a matter of 
expense ? — Entirely a matter of expense. At one 
time grants were given for all pupil teachers, and 
the grants have had to be reduced on the number 
of pupil teachers as the number of pupil teachers 
has increased. Twenty years ago grants were 
given for all pupil teachers at Blythsw^ood, and 
now on one-third. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 295 

2006. Have you not a lot of applications for Mr.james 
youngsters to come in, notwithstanding the grant M M.A en ' 
not being as liberal as in former years ? — Our } — 
training institutions are well filled, but we have a u y 
great difficulty in classes leading up to the pupil 
teachers' course — standards Y. and VI. The rais- 
ing of the boarding fee from £10 to £12 a few years 

ago at Blythswood almost emptied the classes ; 
the numbers in Standards V. and VI. went down 
enormously. The reason I brought the matter up 
again this morning is that I think it would perhaps 
be dangerous to interfere much with the present 
system of paying grants. You may do an injustice 
to the training institutions, unless you have more 
money to give than you can give at present. 

2007. Seeing the Department are compelled to 
restrict the grants on account of the want of 
money, is the present system of grants to the 
senior pupil teachers the soundest ? — I think so. 

2008. You would not advise any change ? — No. 

2009. You said it cost about £16 to keep them ? 
— At least, and in some institutions more. 

2010. Well, you take that as a fair average. 
The}^ get £12 frpm the Government ? — Yes. 

2011. And £12 from the pupil teachers ? — Only 
one-third of the whole number get £12 from the 
Government ; that is only £4 each. 

2012. Colonel Stanford.'] Do you make surprise 
visits to the schools ? — Certainly. 

2013. Do you think these visits are necessary ? — 
Most necessary. 

2014. In what respects ? — Well, we make these 
visits, in the first place, to see that the teachers 
are at their posts, that they are doing the work for 
which they are paid, that their registers and books 
are in proper order and marked at the proper time. 
We make them also to see that the pupils are at 
their posts. We make them particularly at the 
beginning of each quarter, in order to see what 
sort of a start has been made with the schools, and 
to see how many pupils have turned up on the 
opening day, or the nearest day to the opening 



296 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOBE THE 

James day at which we can reach the school ; and the 



Mi 

McLaren 



July 16, 1908 



m.a. ' fact that these visits are made has a wonderful 
effect in improving the attendance at the schools. 
The fact that such a visit may take place makes 
the children much more anxious than they other- 
wise would be to be in their places at the opening 
of a quarter. These " informal " visits— as we call 
them officially — have proved of the greatest assist- 
ance in improving the attendance at the schools,, 
and also in improving the work of the teachers in 
respect of regularity, punctuality, diligence and 
method. 

2015. We have been told that these visits inspire 
a feeling of terror in both teachers and pupils. Is 
that your experience ? — I do not think so to any 
large extent. 

2016. Have }^ou on such occasions found the 
teachers at any serious fault ? — Only in regard to 
matters of registration as a rule. Very often I 
find the register not marked at the proper time r 
and when I ask why the register is not marked 
the teacher almost invariably says, " I am waiting 
until the children arrive." Of course the registers 
should be marked half-an-hour after school goes 
in, and the object of that regulation is to secure 
punctuality. The teacher is often waiting for the 
children to come so that he may show a better 
attendance than he ought to be able to show ac- 
cording to the regulations. I occasionally, but 
very rarely, find a teacher absent from his post. 
In most cases that is due to illness. In one or two 
cases it has not been due to that, and of course 
rather sharp measures have been taken, not amount- 
ing to dismissal in any case, but a sharp warning 
has been given, and in some cases perhaps the salary 
has been slightly reduced for that quarter ; that is 
to say, I have found a teacher beginning a week 
later at the beginning of the quarter, and I have 
suggested that he should be paid his salary from the 
day on which he began work, instead of for the 
whole quarter, which meant that he lost not only 
a week's pay but perhaps four weeks', because the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 297 

school does not begin on the first day of the Mr. James 
quarter, but usually three weeks after in January M.A en ' 
and July. This has served as a sort of reminder Jul — 1908 
to him that he should be at his place on the proper 
day. 

2017. May not the unpunctuality in attendance 
in some cases be due to weather conditions and the 
distances the children have to walk ? — Allowance 
is always made for that, and in the winter seasons 
the teachers are allowed, if they choose, to open 
school at 9.30 or 10 o'clock instead of at 9, as they 
do in summer. If I pay an informal visit in bad 
weather I always mention the fact in my report. 

2018. What is the usual duration of your visits 
of inspection to schools ? — A school going up to 
standard IV. takes me 4 \ hours to inspect, on the 
average. A school going up to Standard V. takes 
me 6 or 7 hours, if I do it in one day. If it is a large 
school I take two days for it — 4 hours one day and 
4 hours the next. A Standard VI. school takes me 
two days of 5 hours each. 

2019. Have you any opportunity during these 
visits of coming into touch with the parents of the 
children or the leading headmen ? — Some of the 
parents very often attend the inspection. The 
headman is very often present at the inspection. 
At the end of the inspection I invariably make a 
short speech to the pupils and any of the parents 
and headmen who may be present, telling them 
how the school has done, and laying particular 
stress on the importance of a good attendance as 
the one means of securing good results. 

2020. Mr. Jagger.~\ You speak in Kafir, I sup- 
pose ? — I sometimes make it in Kafir and some- 
times through the teacher as interpreter. 

2021. Do vou speak Kafir ?— Yes. 

2022. Fluently ?— With sufficient fluency. I am 
able to make myself understood by the teachers 
and children. 

2023. Mr. Levey. ] Do you think the status of 
teachers should be raised by giving increased 
salaries and encouraging a better class of teacher ? 
— Certainly, if you have the means of doing it. 



July 16, 1908. 



298 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

m'cWiT 2024. D° y° u think it is desirable that teachers 
m.a. ' should pass an examination in agriculture or 
arboriculture, to give an idea of manual labour — 
that that should be a point of their examination 
before they receive their certificates? — The teachers 
at present have all to get a course of manual train- 
ing ; they all get manual training in woodwork. 
Every male teacher who is trained goes through a 
three-years' course of instruction in woodwork. I 
do not think it would be practicable to have a 
course of instruction both in agriculture and in 
woodwork, but you might very well have a course 
in agriculture substituted for a course in woodwork. 

2025. They being an agricultural people, if a 
teacher passes an examination in agriculture it is 
quite as good as passing in any other trade ? — Yes. 
I do not think there would be room for the two in 
the curriculum, but you might have the agricul- 
tural course as an alternative to the woodwork, or 
you might have a course in building in brick or 
stone, as I said yesterday. 

2026. You are in favour of the agricultural 
training of the teachers. It is imperative the 
natives should be taught something in the way of 
agriculture ? — It is most desirable. 

2027. Colonel Stanford.'] Do you mean it is most 
desirable that the pupils should learn agriculture, 
or that the teachers should have a training in agri- 
culture ? — The teachers should have a training in 
some particular branch of handiwork or industry, 
certainly. I am not quite decided whether it 
should be agriculture specially, or whether it might 
not just as well be woodwork as at present, or 
building in brick and stone. I think these three 
are all important branches of industrial training 
for native teachers. 

2028. Mr. Levey.] Do you notice any improve- 
ment amongst the pupils who leave school in the 
way of agriculture in the Transkeian Territories ? 
Take Fingoland, for instance. Is the cultivation 
there any better than 20 or 30 years ago ; that is, do 
they manure the lands and go in for vegetable and 



1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE 1 EDUCATION. 299 

fruit growing ? — There is a very decided improve- Mr. James 
merit. I do not say it is due to the pupils leaving M M.A en ' 
school. A very considerable number of the people — 
in Fingoland are now manuring their ground, and a u y 
great many have fruit gardens — the peach particu- 
larly . A few have orange groves, but not many. Vege- 
table growing is carried on by a fair number. I would 
like to add that the ploughing is better done than 
it used to be. I think it is a good thing to stimulate 
that. I think one of the most important means by 
which the natives can be enriched and raised is by 
training them in proper methods of cultivating 
the ground. 

2029. Eegarding apprentices — when I was in the 
the Transkeian Territories I noticed a laxity. The 
apprentices did not seem to be under what I 
thought to be good discipline. Do you not think 
it would be well that all the apprentices in the 
Transkeian Territories should be sent to a place 
like Lovedale, where they could be under good 
discipline, and not brought up under their own 
people. Take Butter worth and Umtata, where 
they are surrounded by influences which are not 
good for them, whereas at Lovedale they are under 
strict and good discipline. Do you not think it is 
better that the apprentices to be trained should be 
sent to a central place like Lovedale ? — What place 
do you mean at Butterworth — the Council school ? 

2030. Yes ? — You should see the report made by 
the special committee of the General Council, 
dealing with the Council's institution at Butter- 
worth. They very strongly recommend that the 
management of that institution should be brought 
into line with the management of the missionary 
institutions. In regard to the matter of feeding 
and boarding arrangements, and in regard to the 
matters of discipline and elementary teaching, 
they recommend that it should be brought into 
line with the missionary institutions. It is quite 
impossible to centralize all your apprentices at 
any one place. 



July 16, 1908. 



300 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James 2031. If it is impossible, of course it cannot be 
' M.A en ' done ?— They are now, at the Butterworth Council's 
institution, going to proceed on exactly the same 
lines as are followed at such places as Blythswood 
and Lovedale. 

2032. Of course the whole of our present educa- 
tion of natives is what the missionaries have 
given They have done all the spadework. Would 
it be desirable to separate the missionary now from 
the education of the natives ? — The educational 
work has been founded by the missionaries 
in every case, and it has been fostered by the 
missionaries to a very great extent, and then 
Government has come in and given liberal financial 
assistance, and also critical assistance in the way 
of inspection and stimulating the work in that 
way. I do not think the time has yet come when 
the help of the missionaries can be dispensed with. 

2033. It would be dangerous ? — I think the time 
has not come ; there is no one to take their place. 

2034. In regard to the education of the mass of 
the natives generally, what do you think is the 
highest the mass should be taught ? Of course a 
certain number of these will require higher educa- 
tion, but what do you think the limit of the mass 
should be? — Standard VI. That is the limit of 
elementary education. We have a Standard VII. 
in the elementary school course in the Colony, but 
it is outside of native requirements, and I think 
Standard VI. should be the limit. That is the 
limit in my circuit, and of course only a small 
percentage reach that standard. 

2035. Do you think it is imperative manual 
training should accompany the training in all our 
schools ? — It is most desirable that we should have 
it if you can afford it, but manual training is by 
far the most expensive of all kinds of training. 
We have manual training for every girl in the 
form of needlework. 

2036. Take spadework ? — Even that would in- 
volve a very considerable expense. You would 
have to provide the spades and the other tools to be 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 301 

used with them, such - as picks, and some storage Mr. James 
for them. The thing is most desirable. ^a^' 

2037. Take a place like Blythswood, where they - - - 
have land ; cannot the boys be taught there ? — Of u y ' um 
course, and they are taught. In all training 
institutions and the schools attached to training 
institutions there is no difficulty. 

2038. Do they do all the gardening work at 
Bkrthswood? — They do not do it all, but they 
assist — the ordinary schoolboys. The difficulty is 
not there, but at schools which are perched on 
high kopjes with no ground available for spade- 
work or anything else. We want some other form 
of industrial training, and I was suggesting that 
every boy in Standards Y. and VI. might be made 
to make and dry and build a thousand bricks, or 
quarry and build a cubic yard of stone, which 
would not require many tools, and which would 
be useful in the first instance for building a wall 
round the school ground. 

2039. Have you ever thought it would be a good 
thing to have a small piece of ground granted by 
the Government in some convenient place, where 
it could be irrigated, where five or six schools in a 
place like Fingoland would be able to work ? The 
teachers could accompany their boys there and see 
that they had proper training in agriculture by 
some practical teacher. Take a place like Butter- 
worth, for instance, or Tsomo or Nqamakwe ? — 
Well, I do not know if that would be practicable. 
It would involve a considerably long journey in 
the case of many of the boys and their teachers, 
and I do not think if you made such work 
obligatory on Saturdays you would find it taken 
up with any pleasure ; it w^ould be taken up with 
very great distaste indeed. If you took it up on 
any other day you would break up a good deal of 
the school time getting to it. 

2040. The Education Department could so 
arrange. If they considered manual labour an 
important part of education they would naturally 
make a change in their present system to a certain 



302 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James extent. Do you find the boys are averse to work- 
in. a. 611 ' ing with soil and would rather go in for carpenter- 
jui i7 1908 * n £ or some thi n g like that ? — I do not know. 
' They like to go to work on carpentry and so on r 
because it is a definite trade and occupation, while 
they look upon spade-work as something indefinite r 
not leading to anything. 

2041. You are aware at Lovedale there was an 
examination a little while ago in manual labour ? 
— There was. 

2042. There was a boy of your district, Philip 
Matanda, who took the prize? — Yes. He is 
teaching in my district now. 

2043. Is he taking any interest in this work ? — 
I complimented him on his success at the competi- 
tion when I met him, but I have not seen that he 
has done anything in that direction yet. 

2044. Mr. van Booy.] In these elementary 
schools for natives you have the same syllabus 
throughout as for whites ? — Yes, as far as we go. 

2045. To what standard do most of the children 
reach before leaving school ? — Almost all the 
schools go up to Standard IY. The bigger schools 
go to Standard Y., and in few cases to Standard YI. 
I have 115 native schools in my circuit. 20 of 
those go up to Standard Y. and 20 more go to 
Standard YI. The other 75 stop at Standard I Y. 

2046. Considering that most of the children leave 
school not having gone beyond Standard IY., do 
you not think there are too many subjects intro- 
duced to be of much benefit to them ? — I do not 
think so at all. 

2047. Do these surprise visits entail any extra 
expense to the Department for inspectors? — Of 
course there would not be quite so many inspectors 
required if no surprise visits had to be made. 

2048. No special allowance is made for surprise 
visits to school inspectors ? — No ; there is the 
same travelling allowance for surprise visits as 
other visits. 

2049. It entails extra expense to the Education 
Department ? — Only in this way, that you require 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 303 

a larger staff of inspectors with these visits than Mr. James 
you would without them. In my own circuit I M M.A. en ' 
manage to pay about as many informal visits as {Tinno 
regular visits of inspection, but while the regular u y 
visits of inspection take a day on the average, I 
visit three schools, on an average, informally in a 
day. 

2050. Mr. J agger.'] How many school have you 
under your control ?— 125, of which 10 are white 
schools. 

2051. Colonel Stanford.'] It has been suggested to 
us that teachers should be allowed a discretionary 
power in respect of passing pupils from one 
standard to another without the authority of the 
inspector. What is your opinion ? — Where the 
inspections take place at regular intervals of a 
year — as they do in my circuit — it is hardly 
necessary or desirable that the teacher should 
have such discretionary power, except in the case 
of individual children who may, through accident, 
have failed at an inspection time — through ner- 
vousness. It occasionally happens that I say to a 
teacher, " Such-and-such a child has failed, but if 
you think that he ought to be put forward you 
may do so." There are a number of teachers who 
know just as well as the inspectors themselves 
when a child should pass and when he should not 
— when he should be advanced and when he should 
remain behind — but the majority could not be 
entrusted, in my opinion, with the power of pro- 
moting the pupils at their own discretion, and 
particularly they would not be able to withstand 
the solicitations of the parents to advance their 
children. A parent does not like his child to 
remain behind the child of his neighbour, and he 
would bring strong pressure to bear on the teacher 
to advance that child before it was fit to be 
advanced. 

2052. How would the case of the exceptional chil- 
dren, who fail through nervousness and so on, be best 
met ? — There are not many such pupils. There 
are very few cases, because the native child does 



304 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James no t suffer from nerves in the way the white child 
M m.a^ d does. He does not suffer nearly so much from 
self -consciousness. 



July 16, 1908. 



2053. Would you rather leave it to sympathetic 
examination on the part of inspectors ? — I think 
so. The complaint that has been raised on that 
matter has been due to cases where the period 
between one inspection and another has been 
unduly long. Before there was a sufficient staff 
of inspectors it was impossible for the inspector to 
get round all his schools in one year, and sometimes 
there might be an interval of a year and three 
months or a year and six months between two 
inspections. 

2054. Is there now a sufficient staff of inspectors 
to ensure regular annual inspections ? — Yes, except 
occasionally where a change is made in the circuit. 
For instance, in my circuit for the last three years 
I have had no difficulty in having the inspections 
following one another in regular intervals of a 
year within a few days. 

2055. Now, broadly, what is your view of the 
effect of our educational system upon the character 
of the native students — boys and girls ? — The effect 
of the system is, in my opinion, satisfactory upon 
the whole. There is a growing intelligence in the 
schools, which is noticeable year by year. I notice 
an improvement in decorum — in the conduct of 
the children at school — year by year. I notice an 
improvement in cleanliness, in neatness of dress 
and neatness of person. Then of course those 
people who have got some education have a desire 
to own things and possess things that they see 
civilized people owning and possessing, and our 
educational system is giving a great stimulus to 
trade and commerce in that way. The educated 
native buys far more than the raw native ; his 
wants are very much greater. I do not know 
whether that meets your point ? 

2056. You have not touched on the question of 
the increase or decrease of moral strength and 
greater industry or otherwise ?— The matter of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 305 

greater industry comes in connection with the Mr. James 
desire to possess more. They have to work more M M.A. en ' 
in order to be able to satisfy their wants for better — 
things than the uneducated natives possess. 

2057. Chairman.'] In regard to that, are you 
speaking of what actually happens in your ex- 
perience ? — Yes. The civilized native in Fingoland 
buys five times as much as the uncivilized native 
in Kentani. 

2058. And spends five times as much ? — Nearly. 
In regard to the matter of moral strength, I do not 
know that there is as much improvement as there 
might be, but most of the young teachers who are 
being turned out of our institutions seem to me to 
be fairly steady young lads, and the same is true 
of female teachers ; they seem to be steady. I have 
noticed, in the 10 or 12 years I have been inspector, 
that there are far fewer dismissals of teachers in 
my circuit than there used to be on the part of the 
managers, owing to misconduct. When I was 
appointed inspector at first there were numerous 
cases of dismissal, and recently there have been 
comparatively few. 

2059. I suppose you would say that the clearest 
proof of the increasing wants of these people is to 
be found in the very different stock which is now 
kept by traders who are resident in native 
locations ? — Certainly. In the backward parts of 
the country the stock is still beads, and red clay 
and cotton blankets. In the educated districts the 
stock is entirely different ; it consists of such 
articles of dress as you find in a store in a 
European community, and ornaments such as are 
used amongst Europeans, and also groceries. There 
is a very great difference indeed between the 
stores in the districts where you have educated 
natives and those where you have the raw natives. 

2060. And you find the dressed natives with 
more civilized habits are scattered right through 
the locations, differing from the time when they 
were only found in the mission stations ? — Yes. 
Fingoland is becoming wholly dressed, and there 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. W 



306 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James are very few red people. When I first went there 
M.A. en ' the country was mostly red, but now it is mostly 
7i dressed. 

July 16, 1908. 2Q6L Mr T 8earle ^ Q n the question f moral 

character, I suppose the educated native, as a 
matter of fact, is subjected to more temptations 
than the red Kafir ? — I do not think so. 

2062. Does he not travel more ? — Yes, but the. 
red also goes to work just as an educated native 
does at the mines and harbours and elsewhere. 

2063. So you do not think that has anything to 
do with it ? — I do not think so. The red native at 
his home is very much more tempted than the 
educated native is. 

2064. With regard to agricultural training or 
other manual training, in one of your replies }^ou 
spoke about Standards V. and VI. I suppose it is 
really only when they get to those standards that 
it is possible to introduce this kind of training ? — 
I should be very glad if it could be introduced in 
those schools which are the biggest schools — in 
those 40 schools I have going up to Standards V. 
and VI. If you could have it introduced into 
those schools it need not be limited to Standards 
V. and VI. ; it could also be taught to the pupils 
in Standards III. and IV. It would be much more 
practicable to get it taught if you limited it to the 
bigger schools than if you tried to spread it over 
the smaller schools in which you might have only 
three or four boys in Standard IV. 

2065. It is not possible to introduce it generally 
from the very beginning ? — I do not think so. 

2066. A complaint has been made about over- 
inspection, and we have been told that it is not 
necessary to have special inspectors in needlework 
and music. Is that your opinion ? — No, certainly 
not. My opinion is that nothing has given a 
greater stimulus to the proper teaching of needle- 
work than the appointment of inspectresses such 
as we have. In the old days the teaching of 
needlework was most unpractical, and very nearly 
useless. Now the children are taught the subject 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 307 

with the utmost care and thoroughness in all the Mr. James 
best schools, and are able to make practical use of M M.A. en ' 
it at home and when they leave school in making Jui ~ 1908 
articles of clothing for themselves — which are well " y 
made ; and in the same way in regard to singing. 
The appointment of the singing instructors has 
given a great stimulus, particularly where there 
are shield competitions for singing, as we have in 
all the divisions of my circuit. The singing is as 
different as it possibly could be from the singing 
of the old days, which was loud and discordant ; 
in fact the old idea of singing was how loud you 
could shout. Now there is successful effort to 
sing softly and sweetly, in time and tune, and it 
is a real pleasure to listen to the singing in some 
of the schools compared to what it used to be. 

2067. Mr. Jagger.] In what language do they 
sing ? — Both English and Kafir. 

2068. Mr. T. Searle.] You believe in the old say- 
ing that " music hath charms to soothe the savage 
breast"? — Certainly. Now drawing is another 
subject in which specialists are required. Yery 
little has been done in that subject in my circuit, 
excepting the training institutions, but I would 
like to see it taught, because it has a very civiliz- 
ing and humanizing effect. The Kafir has a great 
imitative power, and would readily take to it if we 
had teachers. 

2069. It has been represented to us — of course 
we have the same complaint in European schools 
— that the children and teachers are constantly on 
tenterhooks owing to the frequent inspections, and 
cannot get on with their regular work. Do you 
think there is anything in that ? — Of course these 
instructors come and they examine in the par- 
ticular subject for usually a short part of a day in 
the ordinary school. The burden is felt most in 
the larger schools, where you have the largest 
number of instructors coming. In the smaller 
schools it is not felt. You have a visit from the 
regular inspector and a visit from the instructress 
in needlework, and perhaps that is all, but in the 



308 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James bigger schools, which naturally all these instruc- 
M.A. en ' tors like to visit, it may to a certain extent 
Jul 16 1908 i n ^ er ^ ere with the carrying on of the work. 

2070. But it is not general ? — Certainly not — not 
in the ordinary school. 

2071. In all the schools I suppose there is a 
certain amount of physical drill carried on ? — Yes. 

2072. Is that satisfactory, do you think? — I 
think so. We have a very good syllabus of drill 
in my district, and we have been working on that 
for years, without any apparatus— simply using 
their hands and feet and bodies and going through 
a great variety of exercises which promote the 
strength and develop the body and improve the 
health. 

2073. With regard to hygiene, do you think it 
would be any advantage to introduce, as reading- 
books, text-books on hygiene ? — I do not think so. 
You must not overburden the schools with text- 
books. The poor native children have very great 
difficulty in buying the few text-books they do 
use. If there were some lessons in the reading- 
book used on hygiene it would be a good thing, 
and if lessons were given occasionally by the 
teacher in the form of object lessons on hygiene it 
would be a good thing also. But I do not think 
an additional book on hygiene should be intro- 
duced into the elementary schools. 

2074. But they have text-books which take the 
place, say, of the Boyal Header, with two objects — 
you have the reader and at the same time it is 
giving instruction on hygiene ? — Yes, but then you 
cannot devote it altogether or largely to that sub- 
ject in particular. The child ought to get some 
width of knowledge in his reading, and whilst it 
would be a very good thing to have some lessons 
in their reading-books in each standard dealing 
with hygiene, I think it would be a mistake to 
have a special reader on that subject in every 
standard. 

2075. There was an attempt made at the estab- 
lishment of the industry of broom-making in the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 309 

Transkei. Has anything come of that ? — I have Mr. Jamee 

not heard anything about that at all. M.A? n ' 

2076. I was wondering whether there was any ^i m 
scope for teaching broom and mat-making as they u y 

do now in the other Colonies amongst European 
-children ? — I cannot give any information with 
regard to that point. 

2077. With regard to the medium of instruction, 
I understand you would keep the medium English, 
but teach Kafir at the same time ? — I would use 
both languages as the medium of instruction. 

2078. What is the difference between that theory 
and the theory that you must make Kafir the 
medium concurrently with English ? — Concur- 
rently with the teaching of English ? 

2079. Yes ? — That latter theory would mean 
Kafir was to be used as the principal medium and 
English as a subsidiary medium, I presume. I 
should have English used as much as Kafir as the 
medium of instruction. I should have Kafir used 
for explanation chiefly and English chiefly for 
other purposes. 

2080. Chairman.'] What other purposes are there 
besides explanation ? — In regard to this matter 
may I make some remarks in a broader way ? It 
has probably been said, or will be said, to the 
Committee that English should be taught as a 
foreign language through the medium of Kafir. 
There could not be a greater heresy from an edu- 
cational point of view. A grown-up person may, 
unfortunately, have to learn another language 
through the medium of his own, but a child should 
always learn another language naturally, as he 
learns his own. To teach English through the 
medium of Kafir would mean that the child did 
his thinking in Kafir and then translated into 
English. That is the wrong way altogether to 
teach a language to a child. The child should 
know the objects and describe actions directly in 
English, without thinking what the Kafir words 
are at all. The best way to learn French is to go 
to France and talk and read French there. 



310 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M r cWn S 2081. Mr. logger.] And learn to think in 

c^aren, jy^^ 9 — yes, and the best way to learn English 

Jul i7i908 ^ or a Kafir child is to speak English with him and 

'read English and put questions in English to him. 

2082. Mr. T. Searle.] We have been told that 
the tendency is under the present system to learn 
English mechanically ; for instance, one witness 
told us that the probability is that a child in the 
lower standards would know what ox meant in 
English, and if you wrote the same word in Kafir- 
he would not know that that was equivalent to 
the English ox, 

2083. Mr. Jagger.] It was stated to the Com- 
mittee that they learnt the A B C by rote so well 
that they could repeat the whole of it from A to Z y 
but supposing you commence with Z they will 
commence in the same way ; they really do not 
know the difference. They have learnt it more 
like parrots ; that is what is stated ? — You are 
referring to a state of matters which was very 
common ten or twelve years ago. We have 
abolished all that now and we do not teach trie 
A B C at all to begin with. As soon as the 
children have learnt the Ave vowels in Kafir™ 
a e i o u — we add single consonants, and thus form 
simple words. We never have them learn the 
whole alphabet now before beginning to read. 
They begin to read as soon as they have learnt 
the vowels, and instead of remaining for 
years repeating the Kafir alphabet, we begin at 
once with simple words. I remember going into a 
red school three weeks after it was opened, and 
any child was able to read any word of five or six 
letters which I put on the blackboard, and next 
year at the inspection several of the red children 
passed in Standard II. in English. 

2084. To return to my question, if the Kafir child 
in that standard saw ox written and the Kafir 
word for ox was written by the side of it, would 
he know it represented the same thing ? — You have 
taken an unfortunate example. The Kafir word 
inborn o means ox or cow, whilst the English word 



McLaren, 
M.A. 

July 16, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 311 

simply means ox. The child knows quite well Mr. James 
what the word dog signifies in English, and he m< m.a " 
knows quite well what the word inja signifies in 
Kafir, and he is able to explain the one by the 
other. May I repeat the first portion of an address 
that I gave to the teachers in one of my districts, 
and which I also had circulated ail through my 
circuit, dealing with this matter of intelligence ? 
It was as follows : In teaching every subject par- 
ticular care must be taken to develop the intelli- 
gence. The children must be treated as reasonable 
beings, and not as mere parrots. They must 
understand what they are doing, so that they 
therefore not only know what to do, but why it is 
done ; not only how to do it, but why it must be 
done in that way. Then I proceeded to show how 
reading should be taught, and how recitation, 
spelling, writing, and arithmetic should be taught 
in every case in such a way as to stimulate the 
intelligence. 

2085. But it has been represented to us that the 
teachers, and for that matter the superintendents, 
of the schools are under the impression that it is 
not allowed to explain things in Kafir to them and 
they must explain it in English ? — I have heard 
of an inspector checking a teacher for giving com- 
mands in his own language which could quite well 
be given in English, and should be understood by 
the children in English. I have heard of a teacher 
giving a command to the children, " Take up your 
slates " in Kafir, and the inspector checking the 
teacher for using Kafir instead of English. The 
children should know the words '• Take up your 
slates " in English. I think it is something of that 
kind you are referring to. At the same time it is 
most desirable that Kafir should be used for pur- 
poses of explanation in every subject, in my 
opinion. 

2086. We had it that a circular was sent out 
some four or five years ago from the Education De- 
partment advising teachers to explain in the lower 
standards in their own language, so as to give the 



312 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James children an idea, but we have been told by some 

M.A en ' witnesses that they know nothing about this 

1 , — circular ? — I do not remember that particular 

July 16, 1908. . -i ^ 

circular. 

2087. As a matter of fact, that is being done in 
the schools ? The teachers do explain through the 
medium of Kafir ? — It is certainly being done in 
all the schools in the Transkei as far as I know. 
The notice produced, printed in the Education 
Gazette was not a circular, but it was printed in 
the Education Gazette so that everv teacher would 
have an opportunity of seeing that. It was printed 
some years ago and then repeated. 

2088. Mr. Murray.^ There is nothing about 
language in that notice ? — It is headed " The 
teaching of English in the aborigines' schools." 

2089. Colonel Stanford.'] On what instruction 
was your practice of explanation being given in 
Kafir based ? What authority had you to authorize 
the explanation in Kafir ?— You do not require any 
authority for that but the authority of common 
sense. 

2090. Using your own discretion ? — Yes. 

2091. You had no reason to think it would be 
opposed by the Education Department? — None 
whatever. I am sure the Education Department 
would never think of opposing such a thing. 

2092. Mr. T. Searle.] Is there not an impression 
amongst the teachers that they must not use the 
Kafir language in explaining ? — There may be in 
some cases of some circuits. I am not aware of it. 
Of course, in order to get English taught as we 
wish to have it taught you have to keep a steady, 
constant, slight pressure on the teachers to teach 
English, otherwise there is a tendency to neglect 
it ; and it is possible that in some cases the teachers 
may have supposed that this steady, constant, 
slight pressure in favour of English was prevent- 
ing them from giving explanation in Kafir ; but I 
should think a teacher who did not use Kafir for 
purposes of explanation was a very foolish teacher 
indeed. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 313 

2093. We have been told, as a matter of fact, Mr.james 
they prefer teaching English ?— And as I said M a A ren ' 
yesterday, the very best schools I have are those JuJ — i90g 
in which English is taught and used most as the u y 
medium of instruction. That is a very striking 
feature. 

2094. Mr. Jagger.] Why is that now ?— I do not 
know. I suppose it is because English is begun at 
a very early age and the children are trained to 
know it thoroughly from the start. The three or 
four schools in which I get the best results in every 
subject and in every respect are the schools in 
which English is spoken by the teachers and 
children in school and out of school. 

2095. Chairman.'] Is Kafir taught in those 
schools ? — They begin with Kafir. 

2096. Colonel Stanford.'] Do the pupils in your 
schools learn the proper use of Kafir and to read 
and write it well ? — They do not get sufficient 
instruction in that, and I should like to see 
amendment in regard to that. I should like to see 
the teaching of Kafir made compulsory in 
standards up to Standard III. along with English. 

2097. Mr. Jagger.] What would be the idea of 
the parents ? Do the parents prefer the children 
to be taught Kafir or English ? — They want them 
to be taught both, but particularly English, because 
they know a knowledge of English will pay. They 
are most anxious the children should learn 
English. 

2098. You spoke of pressure brought to compel 
them to speak English ? — Not to compel but to 
help them to learn English, because of course it is 
more difficult for them to acquire English. 

2099. How is that pressure brought to bear ? — 
In the way that has been referred to ; the inspec- 
tor seeing a teacher give an instruction or a 
command in Kafir that might quite well be given 
in English, would probably say Li You should 
have said that in English." When I am question- 
ing children on the reading lesson they often wish 
to answer my question in Kafir and I ask them to 



314 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN . BEFORE THE 

M- r - James try to answer in English. If they do not under- 

M.A. en ' stand me in English, I put it in Kafir and they 

t i iT-i^a will want to answer in Kafir, and I say " Answer 

July 16, 1908. • -tit t «p ,, 

m English if you can. 

2100. You say you would like to see Kafir taught 
compulsorily up to Standard III. ? — Yes. 

2101. Is not that rather against your theory, 
where you said your best schools were those 
where English was taught from the very be- 
ginning ? — It is not against my theory at all. 
The children should know both languages, and to 
know the Kafir language well up to Standard III. 
will in no wise- prevent them from learning 
English thoroughly too. There is plenty of time 
in the lower standards for learning the two 
languages, because they have very little to do in 
the lower classes compared with the upper classes. 
By the instructions of the Education Department, 
infants — that is, children in the sub-standards and 
Standard I. — are allowed to go home at 12 o'clock ; 
that is after three hours' instruction. As a matter 
of fact, they do not avail themselves of this 
privilege ; the young children stay on with the 
seniors. They do not want to go home by them- 
selves, and they remain in school the whole five 
hours as a rule ; so there is plenty of time to give 
full, thorough instruction in both languages, and 
that is what I want to see done. 

2102. Colonel Stanford.] Is it not a fact that the 
euphony of the Kafir language is such that you 
rarely hear a child make a mistake in the Kafir 
grammar or pronunciation ? — They never do. 
They cannot make a mistake in grammar,, 
although there is a difference in pronunciation 
between the Kafir and the Fingo. 

2103. Mr. Jagger.] What is the origin of the 
movement against the present medium of instruc- 
tion in schools ? — It is a reflex, to a very con- 
siderable extent, of an agitation that has been 
carried on in the Christian Express for the last 
few years. I have seen a very strong recommenda- 
tion that our course of instruction in South Africa 



July 16, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 315 

should be brought into line with, or made to Mr. James 
follow, the course of instruction in Central M< M.A er 
Africa, where the circumstances are entirely 
different from what they are in South Africa. 
In Central Africa you have a very small 
number of English - speaking people, and 
probably always will have. In South Africa 
you have a very large proportion of English- 
speaking people, and our natives have to come 
into constant contact with them. English in the 
Eastern half of the Colony is the language of trade 
and commerce. It is the language of Government ; 
it is the language of industry in all those centres 
to which the Kafirs go for labour, whether the 
mines of Johannesburg or the railways or the 
harbours, and it is of the very greatest necessity 
and importance to them to learn the English 
language. Now, the English language is taught 
also in Central Africa, but naturally more stress is 
laid on the vernacular there than we have been in 
the habit of laying here, because the vernacular is, 
and has to be, the language used by the people 
through all their life. The bulk of them will 
never require to possess a large knowledge of 
English such as our South African natives are 
bound to acquire, if they are to be useful and if 
they are to be successful in life. I think the 
agitation largely comes from that. Then there is 
another sourse of it. For several years in the 
Imvo, Mr. Jabavu has said that natives do not 
take the place in the pass lists for teachers that 
they took in the old days, and he thinks that the 
system of education is at fault. In the old days 
there was only one really good school in the 
Eastern Province, and that was Lovedale. As it 
happened, it was the missionary institution, and 
not only natives went there, but Europeans from 
all parts of the country, because I suppose at that 
time it was the best school in the Eastern Province. 
Since that time European education has been 
thoroughly organized all through the Colony and 
m the Eastern Province as well, and it is no longer 



316 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James necessary for Europeans to go to Lovedale to get 
M M.A. en ' the best education to be got, and it is no longer 
— possible for natives to compete so successfuly in 
the teachers' examinations with the Europeans as 
they did once, owing to the fact that the education 
for Europeans has been thoroughly organized and 
the native is, naturally, always hampered to a 
certain extent by learning in a language which is 
not the vernacular and coming from homes where 
there are not the books and the culture of the 
homes the Europeans come from. 

2104. You mention the Christian Express. Has 
the agitation only been carried on since Dr. 
Stewart's day ? — Chiefly. 

2105. Do you know what his views were on this 
important matter ? — No. 

2106. It did not exist in Dr. Stewart's lifetime, 
but had it started before he died ? — I am not quite 
sure. I do not remember when the first article 
dealing with this question came up ; I think it 
was about the time of Dr. Stewart's death or 
shortly after. I would like to say I have the very 
highest respect for the earnestness of the promoters 
of these views, whilst I do not agree with them in 
certain matters. But I do not at all agree with 
them in crying down our present system. In view 
of what has been said against the present syllabus 
I desire, as one who has worked under the old and 
the present, to emphasize the great superiority of 
the present. The old was indefinite, narrow, 
obsolete, not specially designed to develop the 
intelligence, and otit of date as compared with the 
syllabuses of other countries. The present course 
is definite, broad, thorough, practical, definitely 
arranged so as to secure intelligence, and on a 
level with the best codes in the world. Every 
card in every standard in arithmetic tests the 
intelligence of the pupils. The arrangement of 
the instruction in geography, beginning with the 
schoolroom and working out gradually until you 
have some idea of the whole world, is the best 
possible, and so with other subjects. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 317 

2107. Do you think the syllabus you speak so Mr.j a me» 
highly of is so well adapted as the European ? — M.A en ' 
Certainly, provided you add to it instruction in the July — 190g 
vernacular up to Standard III., and you supply the 
native pupils and teachers with text-books which 

they can understand, written in the simplest 
possible English, such as those I showed the 
Committee yesterday. 

2108. Why do you want to teach the native 
English history and the niceties of English 
grammar ? — That is just the one point in which I 
leave the syllabus aside, with the consent of the 
Superintendent- General of Education. 

2109. Chairman.'] And yet you told the natives 
you were giving them exactly the same as the 
Europeans ? — The exception proves the rule. I say 
the same instruction on the same lines in the same 
standards. Now at our conference of inspectors at 
Butterworth 4J years ago we resolved, amongst 
other things, that instruction in English history 
should not be given, but that more attention 
should be given to the teaching of the history of 
South Africa, and, as a matter of fact, I do not 
examine in the n,ative schools in the history of 
England, but I do examine them considerably more 
in the history of Cape Colony, and the other 
inspectors are following the same practice. That 
is one particular point is which we set the syllabus 
aside, because we find the natives know nothing by 
which they can properly grip on to the subject of 
English history. 

2110. Have you a sufficiency of Kafir books ? — 
No ; we have no very good Kaffir books. The 
books we have are obsolete. 

2111. You would have great difficulty there ? — 
We can go on with the books we have until we get 
better. The New Testament is an excellent book. 
It could be used in all the standards. You could 
use the simpler parts in Standard I., the slightly 
more difficult parts in Standard II. and the rest in 
Standard III. It is an excellent text-book. 

2112. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you agree in using that 
as a text-book ? — In this particular case, yes. 



July 16, 1908. 



318 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr.^ames 2113. Mr. Jagger.] You advocate their going to 
M.A. en ' Standard VI. ? — I should where they wish it. A 
comparatively small percentage go to-day. As I 
said yesterday, we only allow Standard YI. in the 
larger schools where they have a sufficient and 
efficient staff: —where there are four teachers, three 
of whom are certificated. 

2114. Would it not be better to alter the curri- 
culum somewhat in this way. to give more time to 
manual labour, or such as you mention — agricul- 
ture, woodwork and building — and rather drop 
the literary side to some extent, say from Standard 
III. up ? — I do not think I would drop anything 
on the literary side, because these standards- 
Standards Y. and YI. — are preparatory to the 
teachers' course. Unless they hav.e gone through 
practically the whole of the subjects in these they 
are not fit or able to go on to the teachers' course, 
and of course we cannot have education unless we 
have teachers. We must look to the teachers' 
course. Then they would not be able to go to the 
course of higher education, which a few will go to 
at the new native college which is proposed, unless 
they had taken all these subjects. It is very 
desirable that they should have manual instruc- 
tion in this way : the girls all have manual 
instruction at present ; they get three hours a 
week on the subject ; what we want is that the 
boys should have three hours of manual instruction 
at the same time as the girls get it. That is what I 
want to see devised — some method approximating 
to the method we have with the girls. 

2115. In the first case, not all the children are 
going to be teachers, and all of them by a long 
way are not going to higher standards. The big 
bulk of them will have to earn their living by 
their hands ? — As I say, only a few of the children 
go to Standards Y. and YI. 

2116. How many hours do the boys get now 
during the week ? — They do not get any. 

2117. You would advocate three hours, taken 
from the present syllabus ? — Not taken from the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 319 

present syllabus. The three hours are wasted to Mr. .Lames 
a considerable extent as far as the boys are con- m.a. 6 " 

2118. Which do you consider most useful — agri- 
culture, woodwork or building ? — I think building 
would be the most practicable. 

2119. Where you have got the materials? — Yoa 
get clay everywhere which you can make into 
bricks, or if not, there is stone you can quarry. 

2120. Tou would have to teach drawing with 
it ?— Yes. 

2121. Supposing it were necessary to teach agri- 
culture in connection with the schools, have you 
the ground ? — No. 

2122. Could you get the ground in proximity to 
the schools ? — I do not think so. 

2123. Supposing it was desired to teach agri- 
culture, how would you deal with the matter? — 
It would be very difficult to get the ground. Many 
years ago I had the idea that it would be a very 
good thing indeed to have these agricultural 
schools, and I even suggested apiece of land in con- 
nection with the general survey might be set aside 
for the purpose, but then the expense of carrying- 
on such work in connection with each school was 
the barrier in the way. Some of the schools have 
land that could be cultivated in the half-morgen 
or morgen of land surrounding them, but the 
majority have not. As I say, they are all hard, dry, 
rocky kopjes. In a €ew cases you can cultivate 
the ground immediately round the schools, but 
not in the majority of cases. Where I am all the 
ground fit for agriculture has been surveyed and 
given out to the people, and there is nothing left 
but veld. 

2124. There is no provision made for the schools ? 
— The only provision made for the schools has 
been setting aside pieces of land for the teachers 
and the sites of the schools. 

2125. What sort of buildings are the schools, 
mostly ? Are they huts or proper buildings ? — Not 
huts. I think I have only one school in a hut. A 



320 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James considerable number of them are iron buildings 
M.A ren ' lined with wood, ceiled and floored. Those are 



July 16, 1908 



excellent schoolrooms — light and cheerful and 
convenient for hanging up maps — but not quite as 
cool as some other buildings. Others are iron 
buildings lined with brick, and others again are 
brick buildings, and a few are stone buildings. I 
have only one hut, I think, and I want it changed 
into a proper schoolroom as quickly as I can. 

2126. Mr. Murray, .] To come back to the language 
question, and to take the paragraph from the Edu- 
cation Gazette, do you understand from -it that it is 
implied that though this instruction takes place in 
English you can examine the children for standards 
in Kafir ? — No ; that is not implied. 

2127. It is not, in your opinion ? — No. That is 
only a suggestion as to the methods of giving the 
early instruction in English in the lowest classes. 
I had nothing to do with drawing that up ; it is 
not my suggestion. 

2128. The point is this : what we want to get at is 
what it conveyed to the teachers. We have it in the 
evidence of the Superintendent-General of Educa- 
tion that he considers it is implied in it that the 
teachers are at liberty to teach Kafir in Standards 
I. and II., and have children examined in that 
language, according to the extracts from his evi- 
dence which I will now read to you. You did not 
understand that that was the view of the Depart- 
ment ? — No. This paragraph out of the Education 
Gazette refers to one particular thing — how to 
teach the elements of the English language — how 
to teach children to speak the English language 
and to begin to read it ; but it does not refer, to 
my reading of it, specially to the matter of passes 
at all. It simply means the best method of teach- 
ing the elements of -English to Kafir- speaking 
children. The practice in my circuit, and I think 
in all the circuits in the Transkei, has always been 
to require the children to pass their standards in 
English. 

2129. Chairman.'] From the first?— Yes, their 
standards ; that has been the practice. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 321 

2130. Mr. Murray.'] In your opinion as an in- Mr.jamers 
spector, you are not justified in classifying children m.a 6d 
as having passed Standards I. and II. if they can Jnl ~ l908 
do it in Kafir only? — I was not aware of this uy 
circular from this point which has been given in 
evidence by the Superintendent-General of Educa- 
tion, and our practice certainly has been to pass 

the children in the English language. 

2131. I also understand from your previous 
evidence that you would not be in favour of 
children being allowed to pass the lower standards 
in their vernacular ? — I do not think they should 
be allowed to do that to the neglect of English. 

2132. You made it very clear that if you wish to 
teach a child a foreign language you should begin 
with it as early as possible ? — Yes. 

2133. And give it as much as possible ? — Yes. 

2134. But there is the other point of view. 
When you want to educate a child, are you doing 
that child justice in educating it in a foreign 
language — in trying to develop its intelligence in 
a foreign language ? That is the point on which 
it seems to me there is difference of opinion ? — 
Why do you call it a foreign language if it is the 
main language of th§ country in which the child 
lives ? 

2135. I am quite prepared to drop the expression 
wi foreign language," and call it a language un- 
known to the child ? — It is a language which the 
child rapidly learns to know. He has only four 
or five years start in learning his own language. 
He begins to speak Kafir, say, at the age of one, 
and begins to speak English at 1a.Ye or six, and it is 
very little Kafir he has learnt by the age of five. If 
he begins English from the early days it is of very 
little material difference whether he gets his mind 
developed and educated in the one language or 
the other. I say it should be in both languages. 

2136. I only wish to make it clear that there are 
the two distinct questions — the question of when 
it is best to begin to learn a language unknown 
to you. merely as a language, and whether it is 

[A. 1—03.] Native Education. X 



322 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

^cLmST ec l ua ^y advisable to use that as your educational 
M.T. en ' medium. I understood in your evidence that you 
jai i7] %8 can a l rea( iy notice that where you insist on as 
much English as possible there is an increase in 
the intelligence of the children. Do you think 
you have sufficient data for drawing that conclu- 
sion ? — I find the more English is used on the lines 
on which we are teaching it now — that 'is, by 
getting the children to speak English and answer 
questions in English from the early standards — 
the more the general intelligence of the school 
improves. That is my most distinct opinion. 

2137. You do not think that in the schools where 
this has taken place it has depended more upon 
the teacher than upon the fact to which you refer ? 
— The individual teachers of the school has a great 
deal to do with it. My best schools, of course, are 
the schools where the most intelligent teachers 
are ; but I notice this, that where this method has 
been adopted by the principal teacher of a school 
the assistant teachers have no difficulty in apply- 
ing it, and these assistant teachers are on the same 
level of intelligence as other assistant teachers. It 
also has to be applied in the lower standards, and 
not by the principal teacher, 

2138. You say you occasionally ask the children 
to explain what they have been reading in English 
in their own language ? — If they are . not able to 
answer my questions in English. 

2139. You accept that where they are not able to 
answer in English, but you encourage them to 
answer in English ? — Certainly. Bearing out what 
you said, if I may continue, I consider Kafir is not 
very suitable as the medium of instruction in such 
subjects as geography, because you have not in the 
Kafir language the terminology that you require to 
express the idea that we have simple expressions 
for in English. You would have to use long, 
roundabout expressions to define a cape or bay or 
gulf, or other terms of that kind. You have very 
simple words in English, but have to use round- 
about expressions in Kafir. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 323 

2140. In regard to the difficulty about using the m*- James 
Kafir language as a medium, do you think it m^; ' 
applies to other foreign languages ? If the mother- Jul — igog 
tongue of the child were some other foreign 
language, do you think the same difficulty would 

not apply as in the case of the Kafir language ? — 
In regard to what ? 

2141. Making it the medium ? — In teaching 
higher subjects like geography and so on? 

2142. Yes ? — It would not apply to European 
languages, because you have these ideas clearly 
expressed in those languages. 

2143. Do you think there would be no advantage 
in decentralizing the Education Department, so as 
to bring that part of it which deals with native 
education to a locality which is in closer contact 
w^ith the natives than Cape Town ? — I think it 
would be a very great mistake to do anything of 
the kind. I think we should have one system of 
education throughout, and one organization for the 
protection and development of the educational 
system. 

2144. And do you think decentralization would 
lead to a hiatus in the educational system neces- 
sarily ? — I think so. 

2145. Have you ever had any difficulty in 
getting the heads of institutions to carry out the 
recommendations made in your reports as to the 
qualifications or abilities of teachers, or improve- 
ments which should be made in the teaching ? — I 
have had no such difficulty. I may say that the 
practice in the training institutions in my circuit 
has always been co-operation with the Department, 
and not opposition. 

2146. So that in your own practical experience 
you have not felt any particular need for commit- 
tees in connection with tbe training institutes, to 
whom your reports might go ? — Committees of 
what? 

2147. Committees of management in connection 
with training institutes ? — No ; I have found no 
need of such a thin£. 



324 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE. 

at. James 2148. One sometimes thinks you might have a 

M.A en rather autocratic head of an institute, and although 

Jul ■1T1908 ^ ou m *£ n ^ w ^ sn to co-operate, his views and yours 

b " might differ so much that it might be desirable to 

work through a committee. That was my point ? 

—Yes. 

2149. 1 understand that there are great diffi- 
culties in getting manual training introduced into 
native schools. Do you think that in the Terri- 
tories more of the manual work which the natives* 
naturally do might be encouraged by shows of 
purely native work ? — Yes, certainly. 

2150. And do you not think it possible that if the 
Council, or even the Education Department,, were 
to encourage exhibitions of work done by the 
children — the kind usually done in Kafir villages, 
such as weaving, and also work which they have 
learnt at school, such as knitting and sewing — it 
might have a good effect? — I have no doubt it 
would. 

2151. I am not clear on one point. With regard 
to the grants to native institutions, is there a 
distinct difference between maintenance grants 
and pupil teachers grants ? — No ; they are the 
same. There are maintenance grants for appren- 
tices in the trades department, but the pupil 
teacher's grant is also a maintenance grant ; it 
goes towards the cost of his board. 

2152. In European schools the pupil teacher's 
grant is a grant to the pupil teacher, but in native 
institutions the maintenance and pupil teachers' 
grants are the same ? — Yes. 

2153. Your impression is that these grants really 
go to the institutes, and not to the individual 
pupil teachers by name ? — They are paid to the 
managers of the institutes, but they are paid in 
the names of particular pupils. 

$ 2154. Though they have been paid in the names 
of particular pupils, has the money really been 
applied to any particular pupil ? — The practice at 
Blythswood is, in the case of the third-year pupil 
teachers, to remit one half of the boarding fee ; 



McLaren, 
M.A. 

July 16, 1908. 



•SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 325 

that is to say. they pay £6 instead of £12. But I M^james 
doubt very much if they will be able to continue ^mjl" 
doing so, particularly if the grants are further 
reduced. 

2155. That is not quite my point. My point 
is these maintenance grants are noted in the names 
of certain pupils ? — Yes, the third and second year 
pupils, as far as they go. 

2156. But the amounts are really used in help- 
ing to pay for the boarding establishment, 
generally, in practice '? — Yes. 

2157. Have you found difficulties through, we 
will say, the necessity of expelling a pupil teacher 
— that is, that the grant ceases and the grant is 
not immediately available ; it is not, as it were, 
run on for another pupil teacher in his place ? — I 
do not think there has been any serious difficulty 
in the institution with which I am connected in 
regard to that matter, except delay in the payment 
of the grant. Another pupil teacher's name has 
been accepted in the place of the one dismissed, but 
there has been some considerable delay in payment 
on account of financial and audit methods. 

2158. Would it not simplify matters if the main- 
tenance grants were paid in bulk, as long as the 
authorities were satisfied that the number of pupil 
teachers were being trained ? — Provided you can 
secure at the same time that as many pupil 
teachers as possible will complete their course. 
There is a danger of the pupil teachers wishing to 
hreak off after passing the first or second year, when 
they are of comparatively little value, and I think 
the chief object of the Education Department in 
putting the grants against the names of third and 
second year pupil teachers is to endeavour to 
secure that they shall complete their course. 

2159. Mr. Jagger.] All these schools are denomi- 
national ? — Yes. 

2160. Have you noticed any feeling amongst the 
natives in favour of taking them from under the con - 
trol of the missionaries ? — At a meeting of the Dis- 
trict Council at Nqamakwe which I attended some 



326 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. James years ago the native members of the Council 
M.A. en raised the question, and asked me whether, in my 
juwTifxxs °pi n ion, the time had come when the Councils 
'should assume control of the schools in- 
stead of the missionaries. They simply wanted 
my opinion, in regard to the matter, and I 
said that in my opinion the time had not 
come : that the Government trusted the mission- 
aries, as the founders of the schools, and as the 
only really well educated people except the Magis- 
trates ; that all the school buildings belonged to- 
the churches, and if they took control of the 
education the missionaries might at once tell them 
they must provide school buildings for themselves,, 
which they were not in a position to do. But, at 
the same time, I recognized that the people who 
paid the local expenditure ought to have some say 
in the management, and consequently there was 
the resolution which I gave this morning, which 
I suggested to the General Council at Umtata to 
adopt instead of the rather drastic one that they 
had proposed to adopt. 

2161. You think that is a step in the right 
direction ?— I think so. 

2162. It will have to come to that eventually ? — 
It is only a step ; it gives them a say. 

2163. Has not the old system of denominational 
schools led to a waste — one denomination or con- 
gregation competing with another ? — In what 
way ? 

2164. In having more schools than are required ? 
— We have a few more than are required. but once 
having a school open you cannot close it. We 
have a few more schools than we would have 
without denominational control, but we have not 
many. You want a school in a location, and 
usually there is one, but sometimes there are two 
— a Wesleyan and a Church of England, or a 
Church of England and Presbyterian. 

2165. It has been represented to us there is 
great difficulty in getting the fees from the people ? 
— Have the General Council on this side of the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 327 

Kei, the same as on the other side. There is no Mr.j»m»s 
difficulty there. There is absolutely free educa- M M.A en ' 
tion in all schools under the General Council in M — l90g 
by far the greater part of the Territories. 

2166. Take a denominational school there ; is 
the education free in that ? — Yes. 

2167. Where do the fees come from ? — From the 
Council. 

2168. Do they make a grant ? — Yes. 

2169. On what terms? — I stated all this yester- 
day. 

2170. Is it a fact that the native schooling is free 
throughout the Transkei where the General Coun- 
cil is ? — Yes. 

2171. Right to the top ?— Yes. In order to get 
over the difficulty of fees that you have in the 
Colony proper, have a Council. As I said yester- 
day, that Transkeian General Council has done 
enormous good, not only in regard to education, 
but in every matter affecting the civilization and 
advancement of the natives. Another thing is, 
we have the total prohibition of the sale of intoxi- 
cating liquor in the Transkei, and that is of great 
help to us. If a parent takes to drink he pa} r s no 
attention to the education of his children, and if a 
teacher takes to drink he is no use at all. If you 
get these two things on this side of the Kei — a 
General Council for natives with District Councils 
under it. and the prohibition of the sale of liquor 
to natives — then your education will rapidly come ' 
to the same level that we have reached in the 
Transkei, or beyond it. 

2172. Mr. de Kock.\ That would apply generally 
throughout this country, would it not ? — I think 
so. 

2173. At the present time we are practically 
fostering the natives, and safeguarding them from 
the influence of liquor in the Transkei, and we are 
not applying that to our own people? On broad 
lines is not that so ? — I should be glad to see the 
prohibition of the sale of intoxicating liquor to 
other people than the natives in the Territories. 



328 jIjlNUTES of evidence taken before the 

Mx. James 2174. Are there white children in these native 

M.A. en " schools? — Hardly -at all. I had one school in 

T , t*t\ ™o which there were some white children, and I got 

July 1 6, 1 908. . -i - , ' -i , ■ o 

them turned out. 

2175. You did not think it desirable that they 
should be in the same school ? — Not if it could be 
avoided. 

2176. And the two races should not be inter- 
mingled ? — I do not know how to answer that 
question. Do you mean in connection with 
marriage ? 

2177. No ; 1 mean in connection with schooling? 
— It is much better they should be kept apart. 

2178. Do you think the fact of teaching English 
only is eventually going to have a tendency to 
their disregarding any tongue but English in their 
own territory ? — There is very little danger of their 
disregarding their own tongue when they have 
their native press, which they read more than the 
English books. 

2179. That native press will have very marked 
influences on the future thought of the native 
people of the country ? — Yes, perhaps more than 
it is entitled to. I would like to see them reading 
English newspapers in addition to their own. 

2180. The press has the effect of leading them 
into a different train of thought to the intentions 
of those running the press ? — It has that effect. 

2181. And it may prejudice them against move- 
ments set on foot by the Government for their 
advantage, because of the native press taking an 
antagonistic view ? — Yes, and not advocating a 
wide spread of knowledge so that they will get 
information from the English press as well as the 
native press. 

2182. They follow their native press because 
they know it is being run by black hands so to 
speak ? — Yes. 

2183. They think they must support their own 
people ? — That is a very strong point with them. 

2184. Do not you think that will result, ulti- 
mately, in their saying the white man must stand 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. *>29 

aside, and they will be masters of the position ? — I Mr. James 

j j j i • i McLaren, 

do not think so. m.a. 

2185. Even in spite of the fact that they are ' — 
increasing considerably more than the white people u y 
in this country ? — The rate of increase is not nearly 

so great as it once was. 

2186. Mr. Jagger.] Why is that? — Because 
polygamy has practically gone. 

2187. Do you reckon that polygamy tended to 
greater increase? — Yes. Under the system of 
polygamy every woman was married and bore 
children, and now with the system of monogamy — 
which is the system in Fingoland — there is quite a 
number of unmarried women. I do not know 
whether the different systems mean a difference in 
the number of children a woman bears. 

2188. Mr. de Kock.~] Do you think it is desirable 
that the teachers should be white instead of 
natives? — No. There should be native teachers, 
because the native teachers can explain through 
the medium of the vernacular when explanation 
is required. 

2189. You do not hear any Dutch taught in your 
schools ? — Dutch is taught as a modern language 
in the Butterworth school. That is the only school 
where it is taught. 

2190. Have you noticed in the case of natives 
who have received education in these schools in 
the Transkei and other parts of the Colony, and 
then started businesses of their own, whether they 
have been financial successes or not ? — They are 
not. There are very few going in for business, 
and I think those who .have done have not been 
financially successful. 

2191. They generally get into financial troubles ? 
— Yes, because they give everything away to their 
friends and relatives. 

2192. Chairman.'] You say the children are 
going to the Council schools free ?— Yes. 

2193. Does that apply to children from non- 
Council districts ? — Yes.' 



July 16, 1908. 



330 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M^Lar^r 2194'. That the children from non-Council dis- 
M.A. en ' tricts are admitted free to Council schools ? — Yes. 

2195. Is that so ?— Yes. 

2196. Is there anything further you wish to say ? 
— Well, gentlemen, I would implore this Com- 
mittee, whatever they may do to improve the 
teaching of the vernacular, and I shall rejoice in 
anything that is done in that direction, to do 
nothing that will lessen or interfere with the 
thorough and efficient teaching of English. 
English is the language of trade and commerce, as 
well as of Government, in all the eastern parts of 
the Colony. It is the language of industry in all 
the countries to which the natives go. It is a, 
gateway to the treasures of wisdom and knowledge 
contained in English books. It helps to qualify 
for the exercise of the great privilege of the fran- 
chise and of local self-government. English and 
natives have to work together, and should have- 
the same common basis of instruction at schooL 
M} r recommendation in the whole matter is this : 
that instruction in Kafir as well as in English 
should be compulsory in all native schools up to* 
Standard III., and that the use of Kafir as a 
medium of instruction should be optional in the 
higher standards. 

2197. As a medium of instruction ? — Yes. 

2198. That is, during the whole course ? — Yes. 
The teacher should be at liberty to use Kafir as 
much as he wishes. I do not think it should be 
optional as a medium of examination. I think it 
should be English in the higher standards. What 
I mean is this, that it is of the greatest importance 
to a native child to be able to express his know- 
ledge in English as well as in Kafir. 

2199. Do I understand you do not wish to make 
any recommendation as to what the medium of 
examination should be in the lower standards ? — I 
do not wish to make any recommendation. 

2200. You have nothing further to add ? — 
Nothing further. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 3$1 

Friday, 17 th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. FEEMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. J agger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. cle Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



July 17 r 1908. 



2 he Rev. James Henderson, examined. 

2201. Chairman.'] You are the principal of the T j^ e J' 
Lovedale Native Institute. How long have you Henderson. 
been there ? — Over two years. 

2202. And before that?— Before that I was in 
Nyasaland for somewhat over ten years. I went 
up there to develop an educational institution on 
the lines of Lovedale in South Africa. There had 
been in that part of the country a wide -spread 
missionary movement with extensive educational 
work, and it became necessary to develop an 
institution for higher education. At the time T 
went out the central station was moved from one 
of the lower elevations to a site on the secondary 
plateaus. The highest plateaus are about 8,000 
fee+ and the secondary plateaus about 4,500 feet. 
We received a large grant of land from the 
Chartered Company, and proceeded to develop a 
training institution. That training institution 
has grown with exceedingly great rapidity. 
There is a training school for training teachers, a 
school for training Evangelists, and it has also 
taken up an intermediate college course — some- 
what on the lines of the Arts course of our 
Home colleges — as a preparation for the study 
of theology, and then they also have theo- 
logical work. A great deal of industrial train- 
ing is carried on in connection with the 
institution. I may say there I was acting as 
colleague to the senior worker in the Mission — 



190N, 



332 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T^e Rev. Di\ Robert Laws. In connection with the institu- 
HeiSreon. tion we had not only institutional work, but also 
village work. At the end of my time there I had 
somewhat over 100 — 115 I think was the actual 
number — village schools under my charge, and we 
were doing pioneer work outside. At that time 
we were opening schools about eight days' march 
west from the institution, breaking fresh ground. 
At the time when I left Livingstonia we had 
something over 33,000 native children in connec- 
tion with the schools of the Livingstonia Mission, 
and there were between 50,000 and 60,000 children 
connected with all the missions taken together in 
the Protectorate. 

2203. I think you have a statement you would 
be prepared to make about your views on native 
education ? — I may say, before leaving the subject 
on which I have been speaking, that our institu- 
tion there has in its development, from the very 
beginning, had its eyes fixed upon South Africa, 
and has profited as far as possible — has profited to 
a great extent — by the experience of South Africa, 
especially of Lovedale, and it has watched the 
operation of the system of education existing in 
Cape Colony. 

2204. Mr. JaggerJ] What language do you take 
there as the prevailing language in Livingstonia ? 
— We have several languages. In the whole field 
covered by the Mission there are ten languages. 

2205. Is not the Yawo language the principal 
one ? — The Yawo language does not come into our 
sphere at all. Our local language was Henga, and 
another language we were dealing with was 
Njanga. 

2206. Colonel Stanford.^ Languages allied to the 
Bantu ?■ — Yes, all the languages. We were 
teaching English not only in the central schools 
but in the ordinary village schools, and it was 
spreading rapidly. Our European workers made 
an effort to acquire the vernacular of their own 
districts. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 333 

2207. Chairman.] You taught through the The Rev. 
medium of the vernacular ? — Yes. HemXm 

2208. The whole of these 50,000 children were Jul -^ 
taught through the medium of the vernacular ?— 

Yes. 

2209. And they were also learning English?— 
Yes, and in the higher classes where text books in 
the vernacular were lacking we had what you 
might call tutorial classes in the vernacular ; that 
is, we went over the subject in a tutorial way in 
the vernacular if we had no vernacular books. 

2210. What was the experience with regard tq 
the learning of English ? Did the students learn 
English rapidly ? — With remarkable rapidity. 

2211. Was it a sound knowledge of English they 
acquired? — It was really remarkably good. 
English spread much more rapidly in the village 
schools than we expected. We expected good 
results in our central schools, but where we were 
surprised was with the rapidity with which 
English was taken up by the village schools after 
our teachers went out. We were afraid in the 
beginning of our work there that we should have 
a difficulty in retaining our trained teachers — : 
that having acquired English, they would be 
taken away from us, attracted by the offer 
of higher wages from the companies and 
traders and the Government — but English spread 
so rapidly in the village schools that in a very 
short time we found there was no trouble in that 
direction. Then after a time we began training 
for a kind of Civil Service under the Chartered 
Company for North- Eastern Rhodesia — training 
lads for minor administrative posts. 

2212. Mr. Jagger.~] Do they take them on ? — They 
have taken on a great number. They have always 
been prepared to take on more than we have been 
able to supply. Then we have been able to send 
trained teachers to other missions where the work 
has been slower, — to Tanganyika and west of 
Garenganze, where the Garenganze Mission is at 
work — the Mission of the Plymouth Brethren. 



July 17,1908 



334 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. There was also a request from the Barotsiland 
HenXreon. Mission that some teachers should be sent there, 
but whether they went I do not know. 

2213. Did they get as far as Broken Hill?— We 
have a station somewhere in that direction — the 
furthest out west. 

2214. Chairman!] At Lovedale the medium of 
instruction is English ? — Yes. 

2215. Do you find the knowledge of English 
acquired by the students is better when the medium 
is English, or not so good, or the same ? — My ex- 
perience is that the knowledge of English taught 
as we are teaching it at Lovedale is not so good. 
The value of words is not so fully understood ; it 
is '"babu" English that our people tend to use. 
They have not been trained to know the precise 
value of the English words, and they are very 
much inclined to use big words without a sufficient 
acquaintance with their content and force. 

2216. Did you not find this " babu " tendency in 
JSTyasaland ? — We did. It is inevitable wherever 
English is being introduced among people at the 
stage at which our Bantu people are here, but by 
keeping very close touch with the vernacular, and 
compelling the pupils to reduce their English to 
vernacular terms, we lessen that evil. 

2217. You feel that the actual knowledge of 
English is better where the vernacular is made 
the medium of instruction than where English is 
made the medium of instruction?- — That is my 
conviction. I have, within the last week or two, 
had opportunit} r of comparing letters in English 
from pupils trained under the two systems. 

2218. Does this apply to advanced pupils only, 
or does it apply also to the ordinary pupils who 
go up to Standard III., let us say? — I should say 
probably that in the lower standards here they 
have considerably greater fluency in English. In 
Nyasaland it is in the classes above the lower 
standards that they appear to have a better 
knowledge. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 385 

2219. And the mass of the people do not get The Rev. 
above the lower standards at the present time ? — Hend™5on. 
Do you refer to here ? — 

2220. Yes ? — Yes. The percentage here is very ' u y 7 ' 
low. I understand that 60 per cent, of the pupils 

in native schools in Cape Colony are below stan- 
dard. What I would rather say is that the pupils 
between Standards I. and III. in South Africa 
may be making greater progress with English 
than the pupils in the Protectorate. 

2221. But the pupils in Nyasaland are making 
better progress in the higher standards ? — Yes. 

2222. With regard to general intelligence, do you 
think there is any difference due to the use of the 
vernacular or of English ? — I am convinced that 
the practice of using the vernacular extensively 
and using the vernacular in every subject develops 
intelligence. The best evidence of that, I think, 
is this, that when pupils under a system making 
large use of the vernacular go out from the insti- 
tution as teachers they are in a position to develop. 
Their education does not sto'p at that point. They 
possess educational recuperative power. They can 
make use of books, and often — I should say as a 
rule — they improve as teachers. 

2223. I gather from what you say that your 
feeling is that the use of the vernacular as the 
medium is decidedly an advantage, in your opinion, 
for the training of teachers, both as regards giving 
them a better command of English and as develoj)- 
ing their intelligence ? — Decidedly so. 

2224. With regard to the pupils in the lower 
standards, the immediate effect on them would be 
that they might have a less knowledge of English 
but that their general intelligence would be quick- 
ened? — That is so, because our objective in the 
first standards must be mental development, and 
not the acquisition of language. We are, I take it, 
in the first three or four standards preparing the 
mental growth — giving facility for mental pro- 
cesses — and we can best do so by using the language 
with which the pupils are most familiar. 



July 17, 1908. 



336 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORB THE 

The Rev. 2225. Is it not a fact that in education of this 
Henderson, kind in the long run, the most rapid progress is 
made by perfecting the teachers ? — Decidedly. 

2226. So even if there is a certain amount of 
drawback with regard to the pupils in the lower 
standards it may be, in the long run, wiser to give 
full weight to the importance of the improvement 
in the position of the teachers themselves ?— Yes. 
Practically everything depends upon the mental 
characteristics and the moral characteristics of the 
teachers. 

2227. Colonel Stanford.] What are the habits of 
the tribes up there to which these pupils belong ? 
— The people live in small tribes with definite 
boundaries. When the country was taken over 
first of all by the British Government, most of the 
tribes were bounded by a belt of uninhabited 
territory, that took generally two days to cross [ 
you had to camp one night on the way in crossing 
from one tribe to another. These tribes were 
speaking Bantu languages, but hardly so close that 
you could call them merely dialects ; they were 
practically distinct languages. 

2228. I would rather have from you a com- 
parison of the manner of life in those tribes in 
reference to our people in the Transkei and 
Victoria East ? — They were a pastoral and agricul- 
tural people. 

2229. More industrious ? — Possibly they are ; at 
any rate, they cultivate a greater range of food 
produce. 

2230. More successful in any mechanical way? — 
They are more successful in agriculture. The 
number of crops grown here is smaller than, for 
example, the Henga people grow there. Then 
among some tribes the houses are superior to the 
houses in use here. 

2231. Have they not small industries, unknown 
amongst the people here ?— i-They have. Ironwork 
is still carried on to a very considerable extent, 
and weaving. Weaving is gradually disappearing, 
because the cost of native-made cloth is very much 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 337 

greater than the cost of imported cloth. The young The Rev. 
men who wove before can, by giving their work HenXrTon. 
to planters or at the mines, buy much more cloth — 
than they could by giving their time to making it. nyl 
They also worked in bark cloth, especially the 
Wamba people towards the head-waters of the 
Chambezi. 

2232. Would not the inference be that the 
children would be more intelligent than the 
intelligent natives with different environment in 
South Africa ? — This would have to be taken into 
consideration, that you have in South Africa 
operating at present solvent influences, from the 
introduction of our European civilization, which 
are not to any considerable extent at work yet in 
the interior. I may say it has always been our 
policy there to uphold the systems of government 
and of village control that we find there. We 
endeavoured to identify ourselves with the most 
progressive people and the people who stood for 
good order and adherence to the best practices and 
best laws of the tribe. 

2233. Chairman.'] I believe you wish to make 
a statement ? — What one is struck with here in 
Cape Colony is the dissatisfaction that prevails 
with regard to the existing educational system. 

2234. Mr. Jagger.] Amongst the natives ? — 
Amongst both Europeans and natives. 

2235. Chairman.] Do you mean the system of 
native education, or the system of education 
generally ? — I am referring now to the system of 
native education. There is dissatisfaction among 
those engaged in teaching. Probably the greatest 
dissatisfaction exists among those who are actually 
applying this system. The missionary conferences 
have spoken out strongly upon this subject. There 
is dissatisfaction on the part of those employing 
the products of our present system. It Iirs been 
said over and over again in my hearing by those 
employing native teachers that the native teacher 
is at his best the day he leaves the training insti- 
tution. There is dissatisfaction also on the part of 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. Y ■ 



338 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the parents — deep dissatisfaction, I believe. They 
HeldSson. are finding that education is not doing for the 
— children all that they expected from it. One is 
uyi 908 conv i ncec j that they are comparing our modern 
system of education with the system of education, 
such as it was, in the old days in the tribes, and 
they are comparing it to the disadvantage of our 
system. No educational system, of course, is 
perfect. We, as civilized nations, are continually 
changing systems, and it is to be supposed that we 
are continually improving them. The present 
educational system in Cape Colony is the child of 
— if not actually the same as — the educational 
system that prevailed in Scotland,up to within the 
last ten years. It is the outcome of that systema- 
tizing tendency of which the Education Act of 
1872 was a product and a means. I suppose this 
education system was conceived with a view to 
giving the children who could not attend school 
for more than 6 to 8 years a type of education 
suited to them, similar to what the college course 
gives for students who are able to give a 
longer time to education. It is a system largely 
theoretic, a system conceived not so much for the 
individual as for the average pupil, and a system 
which unfortunately tended to divorce itself from 
real life. This tendency became, in the course of 
the development of the system, very pronounced. 
When industrial training was brought in it was 
the practice in Scotland not to allow pupils en- 
gaged in woodwork to make complete articles. 
The remark made was, " We are not creating 
carpenters : we are showing the pupils how joints, 
•etc., are made. Our training is one that they may 
or may not apply in the future. It is not directed 
towards the drawing of the pupils into any par- 
ticular line of occupation.'' This education was 
intended, I suppose, to send out at the end of this 
period of 6 or 8 years, pupils who could make 
effective use of non - specialized literature, who 
could engage in non-specialized occupations, and 
who could communicate freely by letter on non- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDECATION. 339 

specialized subjects, and who could also take an The Rev. 
intelligent interest in the ordinary affairs of life. Henderson. 
The system suffered from the defects of its _ _ - ftAO 

-i.,. -m • i.' 'J. i i • « July 17, 1908. 

qualities. Experience of it showed in course of 
time that it did not tend to produce such out- 
standing men as the earlier parochial system had 
sent out. The men trained under it attained a 
certain average level, but there was a lack in 
development of intelligence as compared with 
those sent out under the parochial system. It 
failed in that it did not concern itself sufficiently 
with the individual. The result has been a 
change — a change on the lines of what we may 
call the American system — a change in which the 
tendency has been to concentrate attention not so 
much upon the average pupil as upon the indi- 
vidual pupil — a change which has led to more 
attention being given to methods than to results. 

Now, as to the native attitude towards our edu- 
cational system. The natives do not desire an 
independent educational development. To a 
greater or less extent they realize that their 
interests are bound up with the Europeans of the 
country, and they are prepared to. accept existing 
circumstances, even when these are at fault, rather 
than that those working for them should embark 
upon new enterprises — new lines of development 
— which might tend to force the races apart. The 
most thoughtful of them realize that there should 
be only one educational goal for races living in 
juxtaposition, as the white and black races are 
living in South Africa. 

Now as to criticism of the existing system. 
What I should like, first of all, to refer to is the 
standard system. We are inclined to think of the 
standards as an arrangement absolute in the nature 
of things. Standards are graded steps. The sylla- 
bus of work for a standard is a detailed statement 
of the amount of study which experience has 
shown might be reasonably expected from an 
average pupil in the course of a year. This sys- 
tem that we have here in South Africa has been 



340 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. framed for European pupils — there is no question 
HendeiJon. about that — and the system of standards embodies 

• — a system of graded steps, each step embracing the 
' amount of study which might be reasonably ex- 
pected from a European pupil in the course of one 
year. Such confidence is placed in the correctness 
of the judgment with regard to the amount of 
work that can be accomplished in the periods thus 
mapped out by the standards that pupils failing to 
take these graded steps year by year are reckoned 
below the average in intelligence, and, further,, 
schools which do not carry through a high per- 
centage of their pupils along these steps year by 
year are considered to be failing in some respect 
in their duty. Now you are, of course, aware 
that there is throughout the country consider- 
able difference of opinion as to whether these 
steps are fairly graded for South African Euro- 
pean children and. in particular, whether the 
subjects embraced by them are the most 
suitable to be taken at these stages, and whether 
some subjects are not unduly pushed at the 
expense of others, but on that question I do not 
propose to dwell. What I desire, however, to 
point out is this : that these standards are graded 
steps reckoned upon the pupils receiving a great 
measure of education outside of school. Our 
European children, in average homes, learn vastly 
more out of school and in their homes than they 
do in classes. The class work, in many cases, does 
little more than give precision and completeness 
to education that is proceeding at home and out- 
of-doors from parents and friends and fellow 
pupils. In most homes there are books. In all 
homes there is conversation bearing upon those 
conditions of life to meet which our educational 
system is framed. Now this helpful environment 
exists only in a very moderate degree in the 
native locations and native territories. Out of 
school the native child, in most cases, plunges into 
life and thought centuries behind that with which 
he is concerned in school. Consequently, the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 341 

native child lias in school hours to make np for The Rer. 
what he loses out of doors. He has therefore to HenXreon. 
acquire a oreat deal more in school time than the T . — , _ 

■n i -i i TTi ^i July 17, 1908. 

European child, further, as you are aware — . 
whatever regulations there may be or may not be 
to the contrary, whatever theories may or may not 
be held — his work in schools has always, from the 
beginning to the end, to be carried through in a 
foreign language — by which I mean English. Now 
when those of us who are best acquainted with 
other languages consider the fact that to write 
even an ordinary letter in those languages occupies 
more time than writing a similar letter in our own 
language, we see how, even in respect of time, the 
native pupil is harassed. When we have to 
acquire a subject in less than the time which such 
a subject ought properly to occupy, the process 
that we have to engage in is what we call 
u cramming." Cramming is the process whereby 
a subject is got up for examination purposes in 
less time than would be necessary for acquiring a 
thorough grasp of it. Most of us, I take it, have 
been obliged, at some stage or other, to acquire a 
subject in less than the time we should have liked 
to have given to that subject, but, looking back 
upon that process, we everyone view it, I am con- 
vinced, with regret. Cramming exercises upon 
those who submit themselves to it is a wrong moral 
influence. We feel that to cram is to act against 
our own better conscience, and we feel that in 
cramming we are injuring our mental powers. 
±s ow, to understand the extent to which cramming 
exists in native schools, we have to realize that 
from the First standard up to the Sixth standard 
each step, as taken by natives, is vastly more 
difficult and demands far more time for its mastery 
than each step taken by Europeans. 

I have spoken about the influence of environ- 
ment as telling against the native ; I have spoken 
of the difficulty of language as telling against the 
native child ; I might also speak of the difficulty 
which must come from the position of the mental 



342 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. development of the tribe — the influence of heredity. 
Henderson. I should say, before passing from that point, that 
j V i7i9os ^ e na t nra l result of this cramming is injury to 
' the intelligence of the pupils, and injury to their 
moral tone. At the end of the year it cannot be 
expected that the native pupil has mastered 
thoroughly the subjects which he professes. Fur- 
ther, this system of standards tells against attention 
to religious and moral teaching and against indus- 
trial training. Those who have not actually 
engaged in teaching work amongst natives can 
have no idea of the pressure under which work is 
carried on. Every moment of school-time is neces- 
sary for the preparation of the examination sub- 
jects. It is one long struggle against time from 
the day on which the school opens until the day on 
which it closes, with the result that teachers, how- 
ever strongly they may feel upon the desirability 
of imparting leligious and moral teaching, are so 
driven that they are disinclined to give time to 
these subjects. Then as to industrial training, 
similarly it is felt by the teachers that time given 
to it will not c^unt upon the examination day, 
and similarly the pupils feel that time given to 
industrial training is so much time taken away 
from what will make or mar them on the day 
when they come to be tested. 

It may be asked, Ci Why have this rush?" Our 
reply, as teachers, is that we simply cannot avoid 
it. The system of examination is, as you are 
aware, a system of individual examination. At 
the end of each year all the pupils of each class 
are presented for examination. They are tested 
by the inspector. Those who satisfy his require- 
ments are advanced to a superior class, those who 
do not are required to remain in the class in which 
they are at that time. If no stigma attached to 
those remaining then there might be no harm in 
such a system, but as it is matters are in such a 
position that the pupil failing to pass his exam- 
ination is regarded as lacking in intelligence or 
having failed in industry. His failure is to his 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 343 

discredit ; it is so looked upon by himself ; it is so The Rev. 
regarded by his parents. Similarly, the teacher HelXrim. 
who, with a given class, fails to cary through on — 
the inspection day a certain percentage — 50 or 60 u 5 
or 70 per cent. — of his pupils is regarded as 
unsuccessful. Then the school or institution 
which does not produce a high percentage of 
passes is considered as failing in its duty, and is 
liable to censure from the Education Department. 
Now if what I am saying is correct, it will 
convince this Committee that higher results shown 
by individual pupils and higher percentages of 
passes from individual schools are not to be set 
to the credit of true education. If what 
1 am saying is correct — that this system is 
compelling the individual pupil to cram, and 
compelling the institutions to act as cramming 
organizations — our successes are failures : our 
results at the close are sham results. 

Now, what I conceive this country desires is not 
that at the end of the elementary school course 
certain pupils should be able to write a piece of 
dictation from a certain book with less than a 
fixed number of errors in spelling, that they should 
be able to give complete or nearly complete lists 
of dates, lists of geographical names, with certain 
explanations, and so on : what I conceive that we 
aim at is the education of mind and of character 
— a fitness for life and its duties — of which accuracy 
in respact of these details may or may not be an 
exact criterion. It appears to me that our present 
system has, in the course of its development, yielded 
itself more and more to the examination day. I 
have before me a geography book recently produced 
— one of the best of its kind — but the type of infor- 
mation provided in it is. I consider, not that which 
we are in earnest about our pupils obtaining. Here 
is a list of capes on the south coast of Cape Colony. 
Cape of Good Hope, Cape Hangklip, Danger Point, 
and so on — which I must say I can conceive as 
serving only one purpose, and that is the satisfac- 
tion of the inspector upon the examination day. It 



James 
mders( 

July 17, 1908 



344 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. appears to me even our books have come to be 
Henderson, conceived and. adapted for examination purposes, 
and our methods have become adapted to exami- 
nation purposes, and because of that our system 
has become veritably an abortion. Our system 
says absolutely " Do this and live." It is a system 
of testing by mere works ; it is a system by which 
progress is tested by the results which take the 
eye on the examination. 

I take it that those who are in control of educa- 
tion — those who are concerned with the general 
government of the country and" its general 
welfare — should have something to say in 
this matter. The system of inspection, perhaps, 
is inevitable with the small number of inspectors 
that we are able to employ at present ; perhaps it 
is not. Is it not conceivable that we could devise 
a method that would concern itself not merely 
with results that can be tabulated, not with results 
for the pigeon holes of the statistician, but that 
would occupy itself with methods, and that would 
somewhat gauge mental development, gauge 
broadening of outlook and gauge growth of moral 
character ? I am afraid that such a system is 
impossible when practices are followed such as I 
have heard of recently, where village schools with 
pupils in Standards I. to IY. are examined in 4| 
hours, and where large schools containing all the 
standards are examined in from 8 to 10 hours. 
Such rapid examination tends inevitably to super- 
ficial testing by results — those results that take 
the eye. But it appears to me that, even with 
this rapid examination, by approaching the work 
with a different outlook — a different view of work 
— much could be accomplished. AVe hear of sur- 
prise visits paid by inspectors, and in my hearing 
recently when an inspector was asked as to the 
purpose of such a surprise visit I learned, to my 
amazement, that his objective was to ascertain 
whether the teacher was attending his school, 
whether the register was in order, and whether 
various regulations are being consistently adhered 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 345 

to. These appear to me to be merely the incidental The Rev. 
requirements of education. I do not think that Henderson. 
your Government appoints such officials merely ^ — 
to inquire into the incidentals of our educational 
work. You choose men of high training and 
experience. I take it, for the guidance — for the 
direction — of the work of the teacher ; and if such 
surprise visits are to be of value they will be of 
value in the measure in which they bring new 
ideas to the lonely teacher — new ideas as to educa- 
tion work — stimulus and encouragement. 

I am aware that objection is offered to proposals 
to make any change in the existing system of 
inspection on the ground of objections as to the 
character or training and general equipment of the 
teachers employed. These considerations require to 
be weighed. The general feeling, I regret to say, 
throughout the country at the present time is 
rather one of witholding confidence in our native 
teachers. There is a tendency among the mission- 
aries and missionary societies to look upon the 
teachers now as merely instructors in those sub- 
jects that are called for by the Government 
inspectors. It is a matter for very serious regret 
on the part of many earnest missionaries that at 
the present time they can count very little upon 
their teachers as spiritual or, even, to put it upon 
a low^er basis, thoroughly good moral influences in 
their districts. The missionaries are tending ^o 
look upon their teachers as purely and simply 
teachers of the subjects required for Government 
inspection, and not to be reckoned upon as an 
educative force out of school hours. Now this, I 
take it — for this was not always the case — is due 
to our system of instruction in the Standard and 
Normal Classes. If I am correct in saying that 
our system of instruction is one of cramming, one 
that leads to dishonest work — for cramming is 
dishonest work on the part of both teacher and 
pupil — that w^e should have moral retrogression in 
this respect is not to be wondered at. But, having 
seen an evil, is it not our duty to endeavour to 



346 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

alter the situation — not to accept it as inevitable 
and proceed accordingly ? My experience goes to - 
prove that the native teachers can be counted 
upon with assurance for that which the mission- 
aries expect of them. If we had not had these 
years of dishonest working, we might look with 
great hope — we might look with assurance — for 
honest working in the time when the teacher goes 
out to stand alone and bear responsibility himself.. 
Still, taking all this into account, I am convinced: 
that the experience of teachers, and of inspectors 
dealing with teachers in actual work, goes to show 
that, taken all in all, the native teachers are 
strictly honest in their relations with the 
authorities over them — that the work is done 
conscientiously and that they give a fair return for 
the wages paid to them. If that is so, has the time 
not come to consider whether a change cannot be 
made in the direction of substituting class for 
individual examinations ? Could not this be con- 
sidered even in respect of village schools? Surely 
the objections that are advanced against the 
village schools do not apply to the great institu- 
tions, but it appears to me that not only might a 
change be made with safety in respect to the great 
institutions but even in respect of the village 
schools, The great difficulty here again, however., 
is with respect to the use of English. If a different 
system of inspection came into operation, teachers 
might be able to delay their pupils so that instead 
of the pupils being driven to take the steps set for 
Europeans in one year they might take these steps- 
in two. Still, that change will not easily be 
brought about. One most evil effect of the present 
examination system is the discredit which it in- 
evitably casts upon the teachers. The teacher- 
works not for an idea of his own ; his own aspira- 
tions do not count in the matter ; he works for 
that type of result which will satisfy the inspector 
of a circuit. The inspector of a circuit is the 
absolute final authority. Consequently, in the 
eyes of the people, the teacher's judgment is 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 347 

under-valued. Similarly, the judgment of the T ^ e e g v - 
head of the institution is under-valued. Any HendTraon. 
judgment he may pass is no final judgment until July ~ 1908 
it is ratified by the Government inspector. 

This circumstance would have the effect of 
making more difficult the actiorp of teachers in 
delaying pupils in the way of making them spread 
over two, or even more than two. years the work 
required of Europeans in one year. It will be a 
serious difficulty. But, after all, is the use of English 
as it is at present insisted upon what the country 
requires ? I take it that what the country aims at is 
a mental result — results in character — as much as 
results in actual knowledge of facts. What 1 consider 
the country aims at in its educational system is the 
man rather than the man's expression of himself 
— that the pupil going up to Standard VI. should 
have the stamp of the training of those classes 
upon him, in his mental processes, in his character, 
in the use to which he puts his hands. Now it 
cannot be contended that that stamp of education 
can only be obtained through one language. It 
is, I take it, a matter of indifference to us how — if 
upon sound educational lines — that result is 
obtained in respect of language. Those of us 
engaged in teaching work among natives hold 
that English must be acquired and must be 
acquired thoroughly, and that conversational 
English should be begun as near the beginning of 
a child's education as possible ; but is there any 
reason why geography should be acquired in 
English rather than in the vernacular except the 
reason that in English it is possibly more easily 
examined ? What do we aim at in geography ? I 
take it we aim at securing for the pupils a reason- 
able acquaintance with the geographical circum- 
stances under which their lives are lived — that 
they should know what part of the world they 
live in and the geographical relations of that part 
of the world with other parts, in respect of com- 
meice and politically. Now it stands to reason 
hat that knowledge should be more easily 



348 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. acquired in their own language. The fact that is 
Henderson, not sufficiently considered in dealing with this 
jui iT 1908 c l ues tion is the fact of the great gulf between the 
' Bantu languages and English. Linguisticailv. 
they are as remote, I take it, as Arabic and 
English ; but that is not the gulf to which I refer. 
The Bantu languages are the languages of a 
people at a very different stage of develop- 
ment. The reading books that would be most 
suitable as readers for our people would be 
such as we had placed in our hands when 
we were studying Greek — the Iliad and Odyssey 
— because the language of these books refers to 
thoughts which are passing through their minds, 
and experiences familiar to the natives as a race. 
Xow in the matter of education we have to convey 
our pupils across this great gulf — across centuries 
of development — and it should be continually 
before us how this transition can be safely and 
beneficially effected. If we make our pupils learn 
geography and learn history in English, what 
security have we that we are successfully connect- 
ing this knowledge with their past thinking ? 
What security have we that we are not separating 
the educated native from the uneducated native 
by a great gulf, and creating a new class widely 
separated from them ? I do not see any benefit in 
the universe that will obtain by putting such a 
paragraph into Kafir as this in the geography 
book: 'The chief capes on the south coast are 
the Cape of Good Hope, Cape Hangklip. Danger 
Point," and so on. To put that into Kafir would 
entail only the changing of the form of the names, 
but I take it it is not the acquisition of lists of 
this kind that we are concerned with in education. 
What would be a gain in respect of the teaching of 
geography would be to resolve our thinking on 
geographical matters — for our thinking on geo- 
graphical matters is embodied in such words as 
we use in commerce and trade — that we should 
resolve that thinking into the terms of the people 
in their own language — that we should bridge the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 349 

gulf bv turning- these lesults of our thought into The Rev. 
their own language, and thereby not simply giving Henderson. 
education in those advanced subjects to our — • 
educated natives, but connecting it on with the' 1171 '' 
thinking mass of the people and making it also 
theirs. 

Now I understand you have been told that 
the teaching of English history might be dispensed 
with in native schools. I am amazed that such a 
proposition should be seriously made. We are 
leading our people out of a lower state of racial 
development and governmental organization 
to a higher ; we have allied these people 
to ourselves with the franchise ; and we 
have drawn them into our system of govern- 
ment. Is it then seriously proposed that we 
should not then do our utmost to inspire these 
people with those ideals of loyalty, of patriotism, 
of heroism which have guided our history and 
brought us to the stage of development at which 
we now find ourselves ? Education, without 
attention to matters of this kind, would, in my 
opinion, be worse than useless. But history, if it 
is to be taught with advantage to the people, must 
be clearly resolved into the terms employed in 
their thinking. There would be no advantage in 
strings of names of kings and their relatives and 
dates, in lists of battles, even in lists of Parlia- 
ments, Premiers and Ministers. These are matters 
which might well be acquired for examination 
purposes, but they are not what we should con- 
cern ourselves with. Now I hold that these 
special subjects should be taught in the ver- 
nacular. 1 hold that they can be taught in the 
vernacular. I hold that without being taught in 
the vernacular these subjects are — I will say it — 
worse than useless. 

Two questions are before us in respect to the 
vernacular — the question of instruction in the 
vernacular and the use of the vernacular as a 
medium. It is said that every child easily 
acquires the vernacular, and in support of this 



350 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Kev. reference is made to the phonetic character of the 
Hentoson. spelling of vernacular words. But taking our 
— own case spelling is not the main difficulty we 
uyl7,1908 find in writing English; the main difficulty is 
composition and style. We do not go any distance 
into the study of native languages without realiz- 
ing that there are as great differences, in regard to 
idiom and figures of speech, in the style of different 
speakers and writers, in those languages as there 
are among Europeans. 

It is the complaint against our system on the 
part of the older men — men who have themselves 
received no school education — we have tended to 
neglect the opinions of the best conser- 
vative men among them, wrongly, I think — 
it is the complaint that our educational system is 
failing because it is not creating men that appeal 
to the uneducated native as educated. We have 
all been struck with the fact that among the red 
natives there are no mannerly and unmannerly 
people as two classes. It is our experience that, 
under the old system, they all had good manners. 
Under our present system the conservative natives 
do not see that quality being adequately replaced. 
Further, among the older natives, oratory — rhetoric 
— was a gift vastly more common than among our- 
selves. From the beginning of the recognition of 
his manhood the young man was accustomed to 
be present at the conferences amongst the tribes, 
and generally had the privilege of taking part in 
them, with the result that public speaking was 
developed to a very great degree. Now these old 
men see with regret— a regret which I think we 
should share with them — that this gift is passing 
away. 

Those who speak about the learning of a native 
language as such an easy matter, do not, it seems 
to me, know what learning the vernacular means 
to those old men — in vocabulary, in dictation, and 
so on. It is a fact that at the present time good 
reading of the vernacular is hardly to be found. 
You enter a native church in which the preacher 



James 
nderso 

July 17,1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 351 

is a man who has passed through our higher The Rev. 

i j ± n l l • x • James 

courses, and you are amazed to tmcl him stammer- Henderson. 
ing and stumbling. His reading is such as would, 
from the moment he began speaking, prejudice the 
conservative red people against him ; he is mur- 
dering their language. I think these circumstances 
should be taken into consideration in estimating 
what time should be given to the instruction of the 
people in their own language. These circumstances 
should be regretted. 

It will be said that the creation of books is 
a serious difficulty, and, doubtless, you have had 
brought under your notice the resolution passed 
by the association of heads of institutions 
which met at the beginning of this week at King 
Williams Town. I take it that the association 
limited its statement with regard to the use of the 
vernacular because of the difficulty with regard 
to the books. It is an exceedingly serious diffi- 
culty, for such books as I have been describing do 
not at present exist in the language, but I take it 
if we are seriously in earnest about education, and 
if we are seriously in earnest in aiming at peaceful 
development in the future, we shall concern our- 
selves now with the creation of those books. 
There was a time when it was thought- and believed 
even by very competent authorities upon native 
languages — that those languages were dying and, 
as dying languages, were hardly w x orth considering; 
but I am convinced that our knowledge of history 
would, even if that w r ere a fact, incline us rather 
to keep alive the tribal life of the people through 
their ] anguage. Our reading of history would lead 
us to consider that in the language of a people we 
have something which will keep before them 
ideals which will lay upon them restraints, which 
will prevent them from sinking and uniting with 
masses of human beings at lower levels — that it is 
an asset for progress and advancement that should 
not be ignored. I think now I have gone over the 
whole of the points to which I wished to refer. 



352 MINUTES OF EVrDE^CE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 2236. Chairman.'] You criticize the system of 

HenXrson. inspection in the schools here. I gather you are 

— more satisfied with the system of Nyasaland. 

ulyl '' 19(R What system of inspection had you there? — We 

had there, of course, no system of Government 

inspection. The missionaries — either themselves 

or through their native inspectors — visited the 

schools and inquired into the work being done in 

them. The passing of pupils from one standard to 

another depended upon the view taken by the 

teacher of the school, in consultation with the 

examiners. 

2237. Then that must have meant individual 
inspection ? — There was a measure of individual 
inspection. 

2238. Do you think that that is a satisfactory 
system — that the two should co-operate ? — It is r 
decidedly. 1 should say that in addition to this 
system of inspection there were visits paid at as 
frequent intervals as possible by the individual 
inspectors to the schools for the guidance of the 
teachers, and to admit of the native teachers em- 
ployed in these schools consulting with them. 

2239. You criticized the system here, amongst 
other things, because of the shortness of time 
devoted by the inspectors ? — Decidedly. 

2240. This system that you regard as satisfactory 
would only be possible if more time could be 
devoted by the inspectors, would it not ? — My own 
experience would incline me to make less of the 
individual examination, as conducted in Nyasa- 
land, but the system as conducted there was 
mitigated by the fact that native inspectors were 
used who were able to give a very considerable 
amount of time to the schools. In the same way r 
where the Europeans visited the schools, a very 
considerable measure of time was given to their 
examination. 

2241. Do you think, apart from the change in 
the system of the inspection, that to carry out 
your ideas it would be necessary to increase the 
number of inspectors ? —If it is only possible for 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 353 

the inspectors to give half a day, or even a day, to ^J^- 
the examination of the smaller village schools, HendSwm. 
some form of individual inspection may be indis- T , ~ ^ 

_ .. * July 17, 1S08. 

pensable. 

2242. And you think it would be possible ? — My 
own feeling rather is that even with one day to a 
smaller village school the system of class inspec- 
tion could be carried out, provided also that 
arrangements were made for the inspector visiting 
that same school once or twice in the course of the 
year, on what 1 do not like to call surprise visits, 
but on visits of advice and consultation. 

2243. Then under that system there would be no 
individual inspection ? — That is what I should 
prefer. 

2244. It has been suggested to us the result of 
that would be great pressure on the part of the 
parents to have their children promoted and that 
that pressure would prove irresistible by the 
teachers ? — I realize strongly that that is so. 
About six months ago I received a letter from a 
missionary in the Transkei with certificates of 
three pupils. Two had passed Standard VI. and 
one had passed Standard V. After stating the 
qualifications, he added, " I strongly recommend 
you to put those who have passed Standard VI. 
back into Standard VI. for a year, and the pupil 
that has passed Standard V. back into Standard V., 
but," he added, " do not let them know that I have 
said this." Now it would have that effect, but 
principally, I think, because we have so under- 
mined the authority of the people. The teacher's 
decision is not regarded, and by the continuation 
of the present system we are in no respect pre- 
paring the way for a change to the better. 

2245. There is one remark which I understood 
you to make — that it was felt among some of the 
red natives that the old tribal education was pre- 
ferable in some ways to the present education. 
What do you mean by the old tribal education ? — 
I would hardly agree with the interpretation you 
have put upon my remark that the elderly natives 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. Z 



354 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T j e nf ev ' re & ar d the present system as being not as good as 

HenXrson. the system in use in their early days. What I 

Jul i7i908 sh 011 ^ rather say is that they look upon it as 

' destroying many of the things that were good 

under the former education of the tribe. Now as 

to that former education, lads were taught in 

various arts ; they were thoroughly taught in the 

manners of the tribes, in courtesy, in kindness ; 

and through the early traditions — where such 

existed — and through the fables, they had imparted 

to them the philosophy of the tribes. I consider 

that education as having been of very real value 

indeed in many tribes. 

2246. And you think that some of these valuable 
elements, especially industrial training, have been 
crowded out by the pressure of the examination 
system, which reaches its zenith in the inspection 
system? Is that your view?; — It is so. In the 
village school the children are away from their 
homes for part of the day. No doubt they have a 
considerable amount of time at home and still 
learn a good many of the arts of the village, but 
our system tends to destroy, in the minds of the 
pupils, the disposition to place themselves under 
the elder men. 

2247. There is a point I wish to ask you about 
with regard to the system of grants in the training 
institutions, Could you tell us what that system 
of grants is ? — May I refer to a point in that con- 
nection that I wish to bring up as leading to it ? 
At present our Government system of native 
education has only one higher course — that is 
the course for pupil teachers. A native pupil 
passing Standard VI has only one course in State- 
aided schools that he may take up, and that is the 
normal course. Now this normal course is primarily 
intended for training teachers, but it is also 
calculated to some extent to fit lads for other 
occupations in life. It appears to me unfortunate 
that this is not recognized by the Department of 
Education. The practice that has come into 
operation within the last two or three years is to 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 355 

require every pupil teacher entering the first or The Rey. 
normal course to sign an agreement that he will HeSson. 
continue in the normal course for three years, and — 
give service as a teacher for a certain length of u y 
time after passing through the course. This 
arrangement appears to me not to recognize the 
fact that natives trained in other ways than as 
teachers are of value to the community. It also 
appears to fail to recognize the fact that there is 
such a demand for teachers that many teachers will 
be drawn away into employment before their 
course is finished, and it also fails to recognize the 
difficulty with which most native parents are 
faced in promising financial support for their 
children as far as three years in advance. As to 
the support given in the normal .department, the 
total number of pupils in that department is 
reckoned up. and approximately a third of these 
have a maintenance grant of £12 allotted to each 
of them. 

2248. How is this third selected ? — A list is sent 
in from the institutions, and this list is returned 
with certain names marked as those in respect of 
whom the maintenance grant is allowed. This 
practice has %een protested against by the heads 
<of institutions as unfair to the institutions. 

2249. Eut on what principle is the selection 
made ? Are the senior pupil teachers invariably 
selected? — The only principle that I am aware of 
as being followed is that pupils are selected only 
from the third and second year. I know of no 
principle of choice within those two years. 

2250. I understand from you the Education 
Department makes a selection from the third and 
second year pupil teachers which, as far as you are 
aware, is purely capricious ? — I should not like to 
use the word capricious, but 1 am not aware of 

.any principle. 

2251. It is dictated by principles which you have 
not. as yet. understood ? — I do not understand 
them. 



356 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN TEFORE THE 

The Rev. 2252. I should like to hear your views on the 
HenXSon. question of this Queen Victoria Memorial College. 
Jul iTi9os -^- aYe y° u near( i niuch of this movement ? — It has 
' been before the country all the time since I came 
to South Africa, and I have seen references to it, 
especially in the newspaper Izwi La Bantu. Its 
object is the establishment of a college which 
would commemorate Queen Yictoria. Its pro- 
moters desire that this college should be brought 
to its fruition purely by native enterprize. 

2253. Is there much support behind this move- 
ment ? — I am not aware that there is. 

2254. Do you think it is possible to have two 
colleges — the Inter-State College and the m Queen 
Victoria Memorial College ? — Not at present. 

2255. Colonel Stanford.] You are aware that 
there are still large tribes who, in the main, have 
not accepted civilization or Christianity in the 
Transkeian Territories ? — I am aware there are 
such. 

2256. Do you find that the training which the 
young men in those tribes are receiving is making 
them better citizens and more fit for their duties 
in this country than the training which is being 
given under the educational system which now 
prevails ? — Education — even unsatisfactory educa- 
tion — cannot fail to be advantageous. Education,, 
as you are aware, acts as a solvent, and the 
education coming from a race with a different 
experience, tends to quicken the mental activity 
of the tribe into which it is brought. At the same 
time I think our methods of examination are 
deterring the native people from taking advantage 
of it and countenancing it. 

2257. My question is, which is the better man — 
the one being trained by the missionaries 
under the educational system of this country, or 
the man who is being brought up still under the 
old customs ? — If you include religious training, 
there is no question as to which is the superior 
man. I am not one of those who hold that God 
has confined His revelation to one form of 
religion. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 357 

2258. Yon would say the better man is the one The Rev. 
who is being trained at the schools ? — If he is a Hende^on. 
religious man, decidedly so. - im 

2259. I understand you to condemn the existing 
system, both in respect of European children as 
well as natives — the standards and inspection, and 
so forth — because the same system is really being- 
applied to both? — When I refer to European 
education, I am not speaking of my experience 
of it. I am speaking from what I know of the 
attitude of educationists throughout the country. 

2260. You are aware the educational system is 
on the same lines for both natives and Europeans ? 
— Just so. I am inclined to associate myself with 
those who are opposing the present system, even 
for Europeans. 

2261. Now in your view of the feelings of the 
native parents, do you hold that they would be 
satisfied for their children to be taken out of 
this system and put under something different 
from what the Europeans are getting ? — I am 
sorry if I have given the impression that I 
suggested that native children should be taken 
out of the system under which European 
children are being educated. My point was 
that the goal must be the same and the 
methods, as far as possible, the same. I endea- 
voured to show that native people do not wish to 
be separated from the Europeans even in what we 
might consider mistaken methods. The improve- 
ments I am suggesting are improvements within 
the existing system. 

2262. Do you recognize that this system has 
been largely built up on the practice of the early 
missionaries in the country, especially in relation 
to the native schools ? — I hardly accept that view 
that the existing system has been built upon the 
experience of the earlier missionaries, because one 
is aware — I think I am correct in saying it — that 
most of the older missionaries deplore the present 
state of matters. My predecessor, Dr. Stewart, felt 
very strongly indeed upon the tendency of the 



358 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The rot. present system of education. The Moravian mis- 

Henderson, sionaries — and among them are some of the oldest 

July 17 "i'M)8 m i ss i° nar i es "with the greatest experience in South 

' Africa — are very strongly opposed to the present 

system. 

2263. Then you think there has been a depar- 
ture ? — Decidedly. 

2264. In what respect has there been a depar- 
ture ? — Under the older system the conditions* 
were very similar, I take it. to what prevailed 
under the parochial system in Scotland before- 
1872. Much more regard was paid to the indi- 
vidual pupil than to the average pupil, and 
although there was individual examination it was 
very much in the way of class examination- 
Further, there was, I suppose, more allowance 
made for individual pupils. 

2265. How do you know this ? — One ha& read 
the utterances by my predecessor, Dr. Stewart. 
whose experience extended over more than half 
the length of time during which education had 
been proceeding in South Africa. I have discussed 
it with his wife, who was his partner during this 
period, and with other missionaries of large experi- 
ence. 

2266. Has Dr. Stewart left anything on record 
in which he expresses his views on the system and 
the changes which have occurred from his earliest 
experience ? — He has done so. 

2267. Could you let us have any paper of his 2 — 
I can so do. 

2268. You are aware that the Education Depart- 
ment, owing to the spread of the desire 
amongst the natives for education, had co 
give its attention specially to the training 
of teachers in order to meet that want, and 
that that in a large measure led to the special 
privileges or advantages in favour of the normal 
course ? — Decidedly. I should regret if the 
opinion was formed that I was criticizing a system 
that had abundant justification. The system is 
only realizing itself now. The circumstances of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 3.59 

the country are changing, and in view of these The Rey 
changing circumstances the system is being HenXi-on. 
tested in a different way. I do not say 



that perhaps any other course of development 
could have been followed. In my reply to the 
Chairman. I referred to the methods of examina- 
tion in another sphere which were dictated by a 
similar necessity, but methods which, in my 
opinion, ought to be altered as soon as opportunity 
offered. 

2269. I notice from your evidence you would 
give much larger discretionary powers to teachers 
in respect of the advancement in their classes of 
pupils from stage to stage ? — Decidedly so. 

2270. Have you had much experience through- 
out the country of the native teachers ? — I cannot 
claim to have had any considerable experience in 
South Africa. 

2271. Do you think, from what you have seen, 
that they could wisely be entrusted with these 
large powers ? — I do think so, because at pre- 
sent they stand or fall by reports based upon 
individual examination. I mean that in the 
future their reputation as teachers would stand or 
fall upon reports based on the success of the 
examinations of their schools. Their reputation 
would, in the same way, be weighed by the 
Government inspector. If these teachers advanced 
pupils at too rapid a rate, the result would be un- 
fitness on the part of these pupils for the work of 
the classes in which they were placed, which 
would re-act upon the character of the school and 
bring disrespect upon the teachers. 

2272. Do you not think there would be danger 
of their giving way to pressure of the parents who 
were immediately around them ? — Certainly, there 
is danger. There would inevitably be danger in 
the transition period. 

2273. But do you think it would be a wise 
measure to extend their powers in this direction ? 

—I do think so. 

2274. You are giving your students at Lovedale 
a good deal of industrial training, are you not ? — 



July 17. 1908. 



July 17,1908. 



360 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. w e are doing so in various ways. The require- 
HendTrson. ment of the Education Department is that pupils 
should have three hours a week of industrial 
training in woodwork, but we give 14 hours a 
week of industrial training. 

2275. To every student ? — To every student. 

2276. And you give them work on the grounds ? 
— We give them a variety. We give them work in 
different departments — woodwork, shoemaking, 
gardening, forestry and various other branches. 

2277. On the land ?— On the land. 

2278. You also give them drill, do you not ? — 
Drill is given in addition by a competent inspector. 

2279. Are the students responding well to this 
training ? — The students are responding very much 
better. The tendency of this educational pressure 
is to displace industria] training. Three years 
ago, owing to Dr. Stewart's ill-health, and his 
absence from the institution somewhat frequently 
in the last years of his life, possibly rather less 
attention had been given to industrial training 
than at an earlier period, and in tightening up with 
regard to industrial training naturally we met with 
a certain amount of difficulty. The objection is 
this that this industrial training, except the wood- 
work, does not count for examination, and is not 
recognized. The result is that while many pupils, 
out of liking for industrial training, take it up, they 
have the feeling at the same time that they are mis- 
spending time that might be occupied otherwise. 
I might say that just as I was leaving to come here 
I was asked by the senior teacher in the normal 
department if I would not consent to allow the 
normal pupils to give up their industrial training, 
all except the woodwork, for the next month, as 
the examination comes on at that date. That is 
the kind of pressure to which we are subjected. 

2280. Is not that common to all educational 
institutions where examinations have to be faced ? 
— It is common to all. 

2281. Mr. Levey.] I believe you are in favour of 
manual training at Lovedale ? — Decidedly, not 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 361 

only for the skill that may be attained, but also as T ^ e Rev - 

J r. -, -. -, *- James 

a means ol developing character. Henderson. 

2282. And do you think agricultural training is Jul ~ 1908 
very important to the native, considering that he ' u y 

has his lands surveyed now in the Territories, in 
order to make a useful peasant of him ? — I think 
it is probably the most important branch of work, 
but it is difficult to deal with. 

2283. It would be a good thing if some scheme 
could be evolved that won Id show its importance 
to the natives ? — It would be very good indeed. 

2284. Do you think the status of native teachers 
should be improved in order to give them 
higher aspirations ? For instance, they are very 
poorly paid now as a rule ? — Yes. It is 
the case that teachers are poorly paid. We have 
teachers going away from teaching to become 
policemen, for example, because of the lowness of 
the salaries. Salaries would be improved on this 
side of the Kei if a Council were created, and 
educated natives are all very anxious that a 
Council should be created on this side of the Kei. 
At the same time the teacher, should have ideals 
with regard to the development of his own people, 
and I should be opposed to the'paying of salaries 
which would make teaching merely attractive on 
the ground of the large salary paid. 

2285. Do you not think agricultural training- 
should be part of the examination of the teacher 
— that the teacher should be obliged to pass an 
elementary examination in, say, arboriculture or 
agriculture — so that he would be able to impart 
that information to the pupils ? — Agricultural 
education would be exceedingly valuable. The 
difficulty, of course, is the present overlapping of 
the course. If certain subjects were taken in the 
vernacular that would relieve the course to some 
extent, but, as I have already said, only three 
hours industrial training are required at present. 
Now further time might be allotted to agriculture 
and there might be examination in it. so that the 
pupils might feel they were working towards a 
definite end. 



.7, 190S. 



362 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 2286. In any new system that might be adopted 
HenXilon. do you think it would be a wise thing to 
divorce the missionary from education? The 
missionary has commenced the educational 
system and has become accustomed to it. Do 
you not think it would be a wise thing still to 
have the missionaries connected with the schools 
in a place like the Transkeian Territories? — The 
idea of missionary work is that our work is 
temporary — that we are here as temporary agents, 
and should w T ork towards our own elimination. 
That is the principle of all missionary work, and 
we should work towards our elimination from the 
educational system. As to whether the time is 
yet opportune. I doubt if it is so, because of this 
failure in adequate moral and religious training; 
on the part of so many of our teachers. If our 
teachers were better qualified to give such training 
then the European missionary's influence might 
be lessened. 

2287. You consider it is desirable to take into 
our confidence the older natives in discussing 
matters, even in education, say, in the Transkeian 
Territories ? — I do think so. Many missionaries, 
and some missions have failed in influence, and 
have had their early progress checked by failing 
to identify themselves with what you might call 
the healthy and progressive element in the tribes. 
Now that healthy and progressive element is 
represented in many cases by quite elderly men. 

2288. Mr. T. Searle.] A good deal of what you 
said in your statement, I suppose, would apply 
equally well to European schools ? To some extent 
what I have said does apply, but any objection 
to the present system in European schools is 
immensely intensified in the case of native schools 
by the language difficulty. 

2289. You probably have in mind a European 
school in an English centre, but when you get into 
the back-veld, would not exactly the same con- 
sideration hold, say with regard to the Dutch 
children ? — I do not think there is any close 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 363 

parallel between Dutch children and native chil- The iter, 
dren. because the Dutch back-veld children are HeldSon. 
living in the same atmosphere as the European — 

-i • -i i J uly 1 < , 1 908 

children. 

2290. Would your ideas about the medium of 
instruction apply to all languages ? — Theoretically, 
yes ; practically, no. Theoretically, all education 
should be directed to the consideration of the 
individual to be educated, and that being so, you 
would naturally direct yourself to the education 
in his own language, but, practical] y, language 
may be limited to so small a number of people 
that these considerations could not be entertained. 

2291. You said just now that if you took religion 
into account the educated native was a better man 
than the raw native. Is he not in every respect a 
better man, leaving religion out of account ? — That 
is a very difficult question to answer. 

2292. Perhaps doctrine would be a better word 
than religion. Is he not more honest after being 
educated and passing through the schools ? — 
Without Christianity I do not know that our 
education is fitted to make a man more honest. 
Christianity leads to greater honesty, because it 
sets higher ideals before men. Without Christian- 
ity the man is dependent. I take it, upon the 
same senses as the heathen man. Self-respect in 
the educated man might influence him, but other- 
wise I take it he would be in very much the same 
position as the uneducated man. 

2293. As a matter of fact, our educational system 
is a Christian one ? — It is so. 

2294. So, as a matter of fact, what is your exper- 
ience ? — The educated man is a more useful man 
for the circumstances that we are bringing in. The 
reliable, elderly, conservative man is vastly more 
useful for the condition of affairs that is passing 
away. 

2295. You agree that the man who has passed 
through the schools is more industrious on the 
whole than the raw native ? — That is my ex- 
perience. My experience has been that an edu- 



364 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. catecl native, educated even in a very small degree, 
HcnXraon. although he may apparently go back to the village 
T1 ,"7,™o lifei does not go back altogether. He is in one 

July 17 1908 

way or another progressing, and counts in the 
advance of the country. 

2296. Have you in any cases traced the sub- 
sequent histories of your students from Lovedale ? 
— We have done so. A volume was published 
some years ago with the view of inquiries being 
made to ascertain what became of both native 
and European students. Then it was felt the 
results were so good as to vindicate the cause of 
education, and the book was not bronght up to 
date. I have the material for bringing it up to 
date, but the matter of expense comes in. At any 
rate the cause of education has been vindicated. 
In Nyasaland we had a complete record of our 
pupils, and in the same way the education of 
natives was unquestionably vindicated . 

2297. Mr. de Kock.~] I understand there is a great 
demand by the natives for higher education so as 
to enable them to qualify themselves for pro- 
fessions ? — There is a very real and strong desire 
on the part of the natives for higher education. 

2298. Supposing we give them that higher 
education they are clamouring for, and that 
eventually we establish universities in this 
country solely for their benefit, what is going 
to be the ultimate nett result of that education 
as regards the future of this country ? Is it 
going to remain a white man's country, or is the 
white man going to be driven away from it ? — 
It is a very large question. I am an implicit 
believer in the salutary influence of sound educa- 
tion. If education is sound education, no human 
being can have too much of it. Let men, if they 
can obtain it, have as much as they can take in, 
because such education leaves them saner, more 
peaceable and more humble men. We are some- 
times afflicted, as Europeans, I think, with an 
undue sense of our superiority. We go about — we 
all find ourselves doing it — imagining every native 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 365 

is trying to imitate us. I do not think we have The Rev. 
ground for that belief. The native is a saner and Hend^on. 
deeper man than many of us take him to be ; and — 
I am convinced that if we got at the back of the ,ujl 
minds of the best amongst them we would be 
surprised to find what their attitude towards 
higher education was — that although there is a 
percentage of them who look at higher education 
as merely a matter of bread and butter and the 
means of winning important posts in the country, 
there is amongst them a large and by far the most 
important section who look at higher education for 
higher education's sake — who realize that in the 
education they have been getting so far we have 
not been getting at the root of the matter. Now 
as to the future, I am no prophet, nor prophet's 
son, but if one looks at the tendencies and the 
attitude of the native man, the native has an 
extraordinary respect for Government, and ten- 
dencies appear to be moving steadily in the 
direction of co-operation. The native that counts 
asks, for nothing except opportunity to co-operate. 
A great deal is made by ignorant people — it 
appeared in a book the other day — of the conflict 
of races at the poll. Now such conflict — as 
members of this Committee know — does not exist ; 
at the polls now we have the natives identifying 
themselves with the different European parties 
and voting accordingly. I think I am absolutely 
justified in saying there has been no anti-European 
voting at the elections — at any rate at the last 
general election of this country. 

2299. Have you ever heard the natives them- 
selves preach the doctrine of a native country, 
saying that the time is coming when the white 
man must cease to be there, and it is their aim to 
make it a native man's country ? — Never. 

2300. Colonel Creive.] You say that the instruc- 
tion should be given in the vernacular. What do 
you mean by the vernacular? — J mean by ver- 
nacular the language of the parents of the child 
coming to our school, and the language in which 



July 17, 1908. 



366 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the child has spoken during its years of infancy 
He'nd™r?on. up to the time when it joins our school. 

2301. You have in your own school, have you 
not, children of Basuto parents and children of 
Kafir parents, and also Eechuanas ? — Yes. 

2302. How would you meet the difficulty which 
naturally arises in such a case ? — That is easy. 
Our classes in Lovedale are so large that we have 
three classes under three teachers in Standards Y. 
and VI. and the first year's normal course. So 
there would be no difficulty in having one stan- 
dard in Sesuto, and another in Kafir, and another, 
if necessary, with a combination of Kafir and 
English, if there were pupils at that stage. 

2303. There would be a very great difficulty 
arise, surely, in a smaller school ? — In the smaller 
schools the pupils are not drawn from such a 
wide area as Lovedale draws from. In the schools 
in the Territories, as a rule, the number of Basutos 
and Bechuanas is small. So it would probably not 
be necessary to consider that. 

2304. Take the case of a district like Herschel, 
where you have Basutos living alongside the 
Kafirs in about equal numbers. What are you 
going to do there ? — In such a case it might be 
necessary to have separate schools in order to get 
over the difficulty, but I do not think that 
difficulty is so serious as to necessitate the dupli- 
cation of schools in many centres. 

2305. It would be very expensive ? — If the 
presence of people speaking two languages was a 
common feature of the native institution in South 
Africa, it might be so, but so far as my experience, 
goes, the districts in which the duplication of 
schools might be necessary are few. 

2306. Then the time has come, surely, when the 
sphere of a teacher would be very much limited ; 
that is to say, he would be limited in the part of 
the country in jwhich he could be employed by the 
part of the country in which he lived and the 
language spoken there ? For instance, you would 
not be able to move a Basuto- speaking teacher 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 367 

into Kaflrland as a teacher? — That is so, but I am The Rev. 
not aware that there is anv great moving about of HenSSSm. 



teachers just at present, and after all pupils are 
best taught by men of their own race and their 
own language. There is the possibility of greater 
sympathy. I do not think the best work, or even 
very good work, is to be obtained by teaching 
Kafir children through Basuto teachers. 

2307. Quite so. My point is really this. Is it 
not far better, although there may be difficulties 
in the first case in establishing English as a 
medium in the schools, to have a common medium 
rather than separate mediums of instruction ? 
That is really what it amounts to ? — It would be 
decidedly a great advantage to have a common 
medium — it would simplify everything — but the 
cost to real progress would be too serious. We 
have been gaining experience in the institutions 
with regard to this matter, and experience now 
appears to show that the cost is too great in real 
development. The use of a common medium is 
certainly what we should look forward to in the 
future. I suppose we are really to have a time 
when the native people will be bi-lingual. 

2308. Mr. Murray (on behalf of Mr. van Rooy).] 
Are all the institutions you know of in the hands 
•of missionary societies ? — All. 

2309. Have these societies full liberty to teach 
their respective Church dogmas ? — They have. 

2310. Mr. Murray.'] I take it from your general 
statement that you are specially pleading for what 
Thring would call u liberty to teach " ? — That is so. 

2311. I would like to distinguish the small 
schools and institutions as regards inspection. 
Would you press your point that in ordinary 
schools the teachers should be allowed to classify 
their pupils ? — I would not be inclined to press for 
an immediate change in that direction. If the 
visitations of the inspector were of the nature 
which I have been describing — calculated to guide 
the teacher — and were directed towards improving 
his methods, and if the teacher and inspector 



July 17. 1908. 



368 MINUTES CF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. consulted as to work, and the teacher worked out 

Henderson, a scheme approved by the inspector, then if at the 

— time of inspection the subsequent individual 

' examination were determined by consultation 

between both parties, that would, it seems to me r 

satisfy the requirements of the present situation. 

2312. I understand that you feel considerable 
dissatisfaction with the present results of the 
educational training which natives are getting ?— 
I do. 

2313. Yet, on the other hand, you say that the 
present system is vindicated by the results in the 
case of Lovedale ? — I am not aware of having 
made that statement. 

2314. At all events, the point is you think 
education will be more vindicated under a better 
system? — Certainly. I am very far from pre- 
suming to condemn the existing system. I am 
only suggesting that the time has come where 
experience shows alterations might be made with 
great benefit. 

2315. In connection with surprise visits that are 
paid, has it never come to your knowledge that 
inspectors do spend part of their time in trying to 
show teachers how their methods could be im- 
proved, or re-examining in subjects in which 
pupils are weak ? — I cannot speak from what I 
have observed, but I would expect that every 
inspector would use these opportunities. 

2316. Taking the ordinary native school, is it 
not of considerable importance that an eye should 
be kept upon the punctuality and the discipline 
by means of such visits '? — Most certainly. When 
I was speaking upon that subject I was referring 
rather to an attitude than a method. 

2317. Now in regard to industrial training, if it 
is only made compulsory at some institutions 
will not there be considerable risk of na Gives 
leaving those institutions and going to others 
where it is not insisted upon ? — That trouble 
already exists. I am aware that parents in some 
cases grumble at the amount of industrial training 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDCCATION. 369 

given at Lovedale — that that is in excess of what The Rev. 
is given at other institutions, and they fear that HelXrTon. 
that industrial training prejudices the success of M — l90g 
the children at examinations. 

2318. So it might be necessary to legislate in the 
matter ? — It appears very desirable there should 
be some measure of uniformity between the insti- 
tutions. 

2319. Would not the difficulty apply if you gave 
freedom to teach in the vernacular that natives 
might also prefer in considerable numbers to go to 
schools where the vernacular was not regarded 
and where more attention was paid to English ? — 
I should say decidedly so. as things are at present. 
With the present methods of examination, and if 
examinations were taken in English, the institu- 
tions which begin teaching in the vernacular 
would be immediately outclassed. 

2320. Do you think, then, it would be enough to 
leave it optional to every institution to decide 
whether it paid attention to the vernacular or not ? 
— I do not think it would be right to leave it 
optional to any institution to neglect the vernacu- 
lar. I think every institution should be required 
to teach a child in his own language, so that he 
could read and write and speak .it with ease. 
Beyond that, it appears to me, it should be left to 
institutions at the present stage to decide what 
use they are going to make of the vernacular as a 
medium of instruction. That is necessary because 
of the absence of books. 

2321. You seemed to think that religious in- 
struction at the schools was not receiving sufficient 
attention ? — I do think so. It is a serious evil. 

2322. Government allows, in European as well 
as mission schools, half-an-hour to be set aside for 
religious instruction. Can you suggest any prac- 
tical manner in which this religious instruction 
might be attained ? — We are so accustomed to 
examinations that nothing is- regarded that is not 
examined, so that the immediate practical difficulty 
of getting interest on the part of the teachers in 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. AA 



370 MINUTES OP EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. religious instruction is great. It appears to me r 
Henderson, whatever view we take of it, that religious 
— instruction should be investigated by competent 
' authorities — whether by the local missionaries or 
the representatives of the churches, is a question I 
have not fully considered. But what ruins religious 
instruction in the schools, and what has a tendency 
to make our industrial training ineffective, is 
the pressure owing to our use of English. Our 
course is so heavy that the religious and moral 
teachings are put entirely in the background. Our 
course is over-burdened, and that has to be con- 
sidered in any suggestions regarding taking up 
other subjects, industrial or otherwise. 

2323. I think I understood you to say that you 
are to some extent encouraging natives to act as 
their own managers ? — We are doing so in con- 
nection with our practising school. We have a 
small local board of natives, and we find they are, 
in some respects, of considerable assistance. I 
should urge the creation of these boards. I have 
already said that, in my opinion, and from what 
I have observed, there is a strong desire on the 
part of the educated natives on this side of 
the Kei for the establishment of a Council 

^similar to th^t in the Transkei. This would 
provide for some form of local control. In 
that connection I may say I have heard recently 
that natives who were inclined to oppose the 
creation of this Council system some time ago, 
because of ignorance and suspicion, have altered 
their attitude, and are in favour of it. 

2324. In connection with class inspection, have 
the heads of institutions, as a body, asked for class 
inspection to take place instead of individual in- 
spection? — I do not think that question has come 
up before the Association since I came to South 
Africa. I was unable to attend the last meeting 
owing to my coming here. 

2325. Do you think it would meet your difficulty 
at all if inspectors inspected some of the manual 
work that was being done, either in the way of 



Julv 17,1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION, 371 

gardening or fencing or woodwork, and reported The Rev. 
upon it, so that it might count in order to balance nJnXrson. 
some of their strictures possibly upon the general 
working of the classes? — It would be desirable to 
have it It is desirable that all the industrial 
work should be brought under review. What I 
have said with regard to the methods of examina- 
tion of class work I would say even more strongly 
in regard to the methods of examination of indus- 
trial work. If the examination of industrial work 
is to concern itself with results shown rather than 
with methods, then I do not conceive that it is 
going to be of any great value. There has been a 
decided improvement and a change we have wel- 
comed in reference to woodwork training within 
the last eighteen months. We are allowed now to 
make not simply smaller models, but full size 
articles. This has led to a great increase of 
interest on the part of the pupils in the work 
given them to do. 

2326. In connection with the demand for 
teachers, and better training for teachers, have you 
any men teaching at present who would wish to 
come back for further training ? — A course of 
training in teaching has been proposed in connec- 
tion with the Inter-State Native College, and 
already some of the best native teachers have inti- 
mated a desire to join such a course. The difficulty 
— I take it as a defect of the present arrangement — 
is that we have no practicable goal in front of the 
teachers who go out from us having taken what 
is called a T3 certificate. When the teachers leave 
us it should be our desire to help them in adapting 
themselves to the new environment upon which 
they have entered. They cease to be pupils ; 
they become their own masters ; and it is of very 
great importance that they should read and study 
and become in a right sense self-existent — that 
they should have educational and spiritual recu- 
perative powers in themselves. It appears to me 
we might beneficially benefit them educationally 
in this respect by setting some goal before them — 



iwly 17, 1908. 



372 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. say the grant of a higher certificate after two or 
HeldeSL, three years. I would be inclined to suggest that 
the first two or three years should be treated as 
years of probation — they were so treated, at any 
rate in recent years, in Scotland — and that the 
provisional report upon the teacher's work during 
the time should be considered when, at the end of 
three years, he presents himself for an examina- 
tion bearing upon his study during that period. 
Such an examination, to be successful, however, 
would require to be largely practical, and should 
have as its objective the ascertaining not so much 
of what he has acquired in that time — because 
that would again lead to cramming — but to ascer- 
tain what has been his mental development and 
what has been his general reading. 

2327. Have you ever thought of whether any 
change in the administrative centre of the control of 
native schools would be an advantage ? — Certainly 
it is a disadvantage in some respects that Cape 
Town is so far away from the Native Territories. 
Those concerned ultimately with the administra- 
tion of native education do not readily get in 
touch with the people that we are occupied with. 
"Whether some devolution might not be possible 
and advantageous, I am not prepared to say, as I 
realise that decentralization might tend to separate 
native education from European education, and 
thereby separate the goal of native education from 
the goal of European education, which, in my 
opinion, should be one. 

2328. You think if the sectional department 
which dealt with native education was nearer to 
you you could discuss matters better? — There 
would be a great advantage. 

2329. On the other hand, you do not think it is 
a pressing need ? — I see the difficulties are so serious 
that if I were to suggest anything it would only 
be that the matter should be further considered. 

2330. In connection with the name " Native 
College," it has been suggested that if you say you 
are keeping the native and European education on 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 373 

similar lines, or you have the same end in view, The Rev. 
and looking at our present university system, it HenSm. 
would be a misnomer to give it the name " college " ? _ _ - nanQ 

r\ i j. jo July 17. 11KJ8. 

— On what ground ? 

2331. That you would be calling an institute a 
college for natives which would not be a college if 
it were for Europeans. That is one difficulty 
which has been put forward. Do you think it 
matters ? — I think the facts are not as stated. This 
institute, as you call it, has set before it from the 
beginning the ideal of doing such work as entitled 
similar institutions for Europeans to be reckoned 
as colleges of university standing. 

2332. It may have set before it such ideals, but 
at present in the European colleges only pupils 
are admitted who have passed matriculation ? — 
Exactly. 

2333. And it is said at once that you will admit 
pupils as under-graduates of the Native college 
who have not attained the qualification expected 
of Europeans, and consequently the name should 
not be given ? — Is it not the case that one, at least, 
of the colleges in South Africa began at a lower 
level than matriculation ? 

2334. Many years ago they all began before 
matriculation ? — Then I may say in two or three 
years it is expected that this college will have 
students above matriculation, and it is the inten- 
tion, I understand, of those connected with its 
development to throw off at as early a stage as 
possible this high-school work, and concentrate 
upon true college education. 

2335. Chairman.'] We have had it in evidence 
that some years ago you drafted a separate code 
for native schools. I think in Nyasaland, and some 
teachers regard that as particularly well applicable 
for some parts of this country. Have you a copy 
of that code ? — I think I have at Lovedale ; I have 
not brought one here. 

233(3. Could you send a copy of it? — If a copy 
can be got in Lovedale I shall be glad to do so. 



374 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 2337. Are you still of opinion that that would 

HeldTreon. be a satisfactory code ? — I should like to make it 

-7 ^ clear that that code was the result of conference 

'between the different missions in Nyasaland. and 

was adapted to a situation there existing at the 

time when it was framed. The situation existing 

there is not the situation existing here. All, I 

think, that could be fairly claimed for that code is 

that it might afford some suggestions for work 

being carried on here. Possibly in South Africa 

we are, I might almost say unduly, influenced by 

the Europeans in our district in estimating for 

European needs. We are not able to concentrate 

so fully upon the peculiarly native needs. 

2338. Do you think it might be of advantage to 
have a similar conference here to consider the code 
for native schools ? — A conference representing 
the institutions and representing those missionaries 
who carry on our district educational system 
would be decidedly advantageous, but I trust I 
have made it clear that I am opposed to the idea 
of establishing a different code for native schools 
in the I ape Colony. I conceive that a time may 
not be far distant when there will be a conference 
throughout the Colony — possibly throughout South 
Africa — as to reconstruction of the European code 
— the adaptation of its subjects to local require- 
ments, and* its adaptation on the grounds of 
experience acquired. When such a time arrived it 
would be most desirable, in my opinion, that those 
accumulating experience in native work should 
be afforded an opport unity of saying what views 
they have been forming with regard to change. 
Let me repeat that in my opinion there can be only 
one goal of education, but there may be many 
roads, and some of the roads to be followed by 
native pupils may not be roads to be followed by 
Europeans. At each standard, at the same time, 
there ought to be absolute equivalents, but not 
necessarily identity. 

2339. Have you seen any reasons to suppose 
that the native is constitutionally incapable of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 375 

developing beyond a certain stage, as is sometimes The Re- 
stated ? — There is, I think, a great deal of what one Henderson, 
might call u cant" written and spoken about - 
natives, and one of the doctrines of this cant is u y 17, u 
about native boys and girls at the age of puberty. 
At the age of puberty, on general grounds, we 
should expect that pupils would show increased 
mental activity and greater capacity for responsi- 
bility. Now, it is impressed upon us, as if it were 
an established fact, that the average native at 
that age goes back — that that is the critical period 
of his development, and in the great majority of 
oases it is the point at which his advancement 
ceases. A recent writer has spoken upon this 
degeneration at puberty as the critical fact in the 
native educational work ; in fact, I think he said 
it is the critical fact in the native question 
Now, this degeneration at puberty is not an 
established fact. Experienced men I have come 
in contact with do not recognize that there is this 
break in development at puberty. What does 
happen is that in European and native schools — 
I am not aware in native schools any more than 
in European schools — there is a small percentage 
of pupils who from that date do not make normal 
progress, but I do not think the number is any 
greater in native schools than in European schools. 
What does occur in native schools is this. When 
pupils — and this is a much more serious problem 
in the newer fields than in districts of the country 
which have been long under the influence of 
civilization — begin school- work at the age of 10 or 
12 they are liable to come to a dead-stop later on, 
and probably more so beginning later on ; it is 
more marked with pupils beginning, in many 
cases, after puberty. In these new fields we have 
grown-up men and grown-up women coming 
for education. Now, what has repeatedly 
been the experience in regard to these 
is that when education has been pressed with 
these people grown beyond mere boyhood or girl- 
hood there has been a liability to mental trouble ; 



376 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the pupils become saturated and incapable of 
HendeSon. mental effort, and in some cases a form of tern- 
July iT 1908 P orai 7 insanity appears. 

2340. You would say that that writer you refer 
to was not a wholly trustworthy guide in this 
particular ? — I do not think he is. The writer 
referred to makes no statement as to what evi- 
dence he bases his conclusions upon, and, taking 
his book as a whole, one finds his methods are 
totally unscientific, and that his conclusions are 
not arrived at in the way recognized nien of 
science proceed to work. 

2341. Mr. Murray.] Would it not be as well to 
say what book you are referring to? — I am refer- 
ring to the book called <b Kafir Socialism." 

2342. Chairman.'] You have a statement, I 
believe, about the teaching of hygiene in native 
schools? — Dr. Neil Macvicar, the medical officer to 
the Lovedale Mission, has written a paper, which 
I hand in. [ Witness put in statement.} 

2343. Does that represent your views ? — It does. 
I consider the teaching of hygiene of great import- 
ance in view of the spread of phthisis. 

2344. You believe it is practicable ? — Absolutely 
— not through text-books, where the pupils would 
be liable, especially if the text-books were written 
in English, to cram the subjects, but through 
demonstration and oral instruction. 

2345. It w^ould be necessary, I presume, to in- 
clude the subject in the course for teachers ? — It 
would be of the greatest use to the country if it 
were included in the course for teachers, but I see 
no reason why elementary instruction in hygiene 
should not be given in the earlier classes of the 
training institutions, because some of them taking 
the classes do not go on as teachers, but go out to 
fill important offices, carrying great influence 
amongst their people. 

2346. Would the teachers at present be capable 
of giving this instruction in ordinary schools ? — 
Not without instruction themselves. 

2347. Would it be possible for the different 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. At i 

denominations to agree to some form of moral and The Rev. 
religious teaching, or is it necessary that there HenXSm. 
should be denominational differences in the differ- JU ~ 190g 
ent schools and institutions ? — I do not think any ' 
difficulty whatsoever arises in connection with 
denominationalism. We are all absolutely agreed 
upon the recessity of religious instruction. I do 
not see very well how moral teaching is to be 
given apart from religious instruction. I do not 
see any advantage in experiments being made in 
that direction. In India the presence of other 
religions may be a ground whereby an attempt 
should be made to deal with moral instruction 
separately, but that difficulty does not exist here, 
and I am convinced moral instruction can be best 
imparted in connection with religious teaching to 
our natives. 

2348. Would it be possible to have that subject 
made a subject for inspection, if there was not 
individual inspection ? — I th ink so. If it were made 
a matter of individual inspection we should suffer 
from the liability of the pupils to cram the sub- 
ject, but if the examiner inquired into the work 
covered, the methods followed, and then the 
mental processes of the pupils, our object would 
be achieved ; and I am more convinced of this 
because the inspectors engaged in native work 
known to me are, without exception, interested in 
the moral and religious development of the pupils. 

2349. You think that the different denomina- 
tions would agree to having their religious teach- 
ing tested in the way you suggest ? — What might 
be done is what is done at Home — that the deno- 
minations might appoint one of their number to 
investigate the religious teaching — but I see no 
difficulty at all in the way of the ordinary 
inspectors carrying out an investigation of this 
kind, provided it did not concern itself with what 
we might call results. 

2350. Mr. Murray.'] As a practical, if temporary, 
solution of the language difficulty, do you think 
if both languages were taught up to Standard III., 



378 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the 

The Rev. an d pupils allowed to pass in either, that that 

HeiXrson. would be sufficient '?— My recommendation would 

T ! ;T,™« rather be that English be taught, as I said before, 

J ulv 17 1908 

""from the very beginning, and taught as far as 
possible from use, that the examinations should 
be — of the other subjects of course — in the verna- 
cular up to Standard III, with the vernacular the 
medium of instruction up to that stage, and that 
the medium of instruction above Standard III. up 
to Standard V. should be optional at present, 
because of the scarcity of books. When I say 
optional I mean that teachers preparing their 
pupils in the vernacular should have those pupils 
examined in the vernacular. 

2351. I am supposing the present system of 
inspection of individuals is continued. Would it 
be satisfactory if all pupils failing to pass in 
English were allowed to go on to the next stand- 
ard because their Kafir w^as satisfactory ? — I do 
not think so. I think English should be made a 
failing subject — whether individual or class in- 
spection ; whether promotion rests with the 
teacher or inspector, the pupil should not be 
allowed to advance without the required know- 
ledge of English. The required knowledge of 
English should be carefully considered. 

2352. One practical difficulty in connection with 
the examination in Kafir is the lack of inspectors. 
Do you think temporarily this might be met by 
missionaries inspecting in Kafir in the presence of 
inspectors ? it is a practical difficulty I put to 
you ? — It is. I am not sure that that would get over 
the difficulty. I understand a considerable number 
of inspectors are well versed in Kafir, and the 
institutions probably could all be examined by 
inspectors conversant with Kafir. The practical 
difficulty in the village schools might possibly be 
got over by the use of native assistants. If in Kafir 
districts the ' native assistant were associated with 
the inspector, as a sub-inspector, the difficulty 
might be got over in that way. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 0<y 

2353. Chairman.] Have you anything further to T J^ V - 
state ? — I should like to make it quite clear that I Hend™*. 
consider industrial training should be compulsory. j7 190S 

2354. In all the schools"?— In all the schools — 
that a portion of the day should be set apart 1 in the 
institutions for industrial training, and that that 
time should be uniform for all the institutions. 
I consider also that a serious effort should be made 
to devise means whereby industrial training could 
be given in ordinary village schools. I think the 
suggestion which has been made that brickmaking 
and building might be taken up is very good. It 
presents certain difficulties, and those difficulties 
would have to be carefully weighed. My own 
feeling is that co-operation with the people of the 
villages might afford us the means of training. 
Our greatest desire is. I think, to give agricultural 
training. Now it might be possible, through 
co-operation with the headmen of the villages and 
locations, to have training under actual working 
conditions provided for these school boys of 
Standards IV., Y. and VI. The old men gave 
training in the past, and such training might, I 
think, be arranged for in the future. No more 
valuable training could be given to the lads than 
training in the use of the spade. These, however, 
.are" matters requiring further consideration. 

2355. Have you anything further? — No. 

2356. That is all you wish to say ? — Yes. 



380 MIXUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Saturday, 18th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. Fsemantle (Chair in an). 



Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Mr. William Govan Bennie, B.A., examined. 
Mi^wiiiiam 2357. Chairman.] You are an inspector of 

G-ovan i i o -\r 
Bennie, B.A. Schools ? YeS. 

July is 1908 2358. How long have you been inspector ?— My 
appointment dates from July, 1894. 

2359. Before that ? — I was a teacher at Lovedale. 

2360. How many years were you teaching there ? 
— My service there was broken, because I broke 
into it to go back to college. I was about 3J years, 
I think, at various times, actually appointed, but 
I did a good deal of teaching before that. I grew 
up in the place, and taught odd classes a good deal 
in my youth. 

2361. Mr. Murray.'] In 1894 did you leave Love- 
dale ? — Yes. 

2362. You were teaching at Lovedale ? — Yes. 

2363. Chairman.] You were born in the country ? 
— I was born at Lovedale. 

2364. What is your circuit ? — Albany, Bathurst, 
Alexandria, Bedford, since 1902. Before that I 
was in the Transkeian district. 

2365. Was it altogether in the Transkei before 
that ? — I had Glen Grey all the time for eight 
years, and I had Barkly East and Herschel for 
part of the time. Herschel and Glen Grey were 
practically native territories. 

2366. You have practically no raw natives under 
you at the present time ? — There are numbers of 
raw natives on the farms. I have not the same 
amount of native work that 1 had before. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 381 

2367. You have no " C " schools in your area ? — Mr wiiiiam 
No. They are all called " B " schools, even if they bcw^ra- 
are all natives. ~ im 

2368. But there are some schools in which they 
are all natives ? — Oh. yes. 

2369. You speak Kafir, do you not ? — Yes. 

2370. You have been at the Lovedale Conven- 
tion recently ? — Yes. 

2371. There is no system of parents' committees 
in the area in }^our present circuit for native or 
mission schools ? — There are informal committees 
in a great many cases — I think in most cases ; 
they are advisory committees, to whom the mis- 
sionary reports what he does, but the missionary 
is the one to whom the Government looks. 

2372. What is the system of fees ? Are the fees 
regularly paid ? — They complain that there is 
great difficulty in getting in the fees. They are 
supposed to be rated at a certain amount per child, 
but it is very difficult to get the fees in. 

2373. A certain rate per child '? — Sometimes it is 
per child and sometimes per family. 

2374. There is no way of imposing a rate of any 
sort in your present circuit ? — Not amongst the 
farmers. There might possibly be in the locations. 

2375. Do you think it would be an advantage to 
have something like the District Council system 
on this side of the Kei ? — I certainly do wherever 
you have a body of natives. 

2376. You think that would be an advantage 
for the cause of education amongst the natives ? — 
A great advantage, because it gets rid of this 
uncertainty in regard to the collection of fees. 
The teachers' salaries are more secure, and the 
teachers have very much better positions financi- 
ally, so that the best teachers go there. 

2377. Do you think it would be possible to bring 
that into operation as far west as you are now ? — I 
have no native reserve at all in my present area. 
Outside the town locations the natives are mostly 
squatters on the farms, just staying there at the 
will of the farmers. 



Grovan 
nnie, 1 

July 18,- 1908. 



382 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr William 2378. Do you think it would be possible to 
Benn?I, a B.A. impose a rate on such people for the education of 
their children ? — I question it very much. I have 
not thought of that point at all. I doubt it, 
because their tenure is uncertain, and some 
farmers are very strongly opposed to native 
schools and will not have them on their farms, so 
that a man might pay the rate and not have the 
chance of a school. 

2379. When you say you think the Council 
system is an advantage, you are speaking from 
your own experience of the Transkei ?— And my 
experience in Glen Grey. The Council system 
was introduced just when I went there. 

2380. Through the medium of what language 
are the natives taught in the area in which you 
are, and what is their mother tongue ? — There 
are a few Basutos, but Kafir is the mother tongue 
of almost all of them, and in the case of the half- 
castes — Hottentots — Dutch. They are taught in 
the lower classes partly in Kafir, partly in English, 
but we make a point of English being a subsidiary 
medium if it is not the principal medium, because 
we found that if they did not learn English early 
they did not learn it at all, or with extremely 
great difficulty. It is far easier for a child to 
learn a language when he is very young than 
when he is older. In the case of a family coming 
out to this country, the children invariably learn 
Kafir before the parents do. So we have been 
encouraging them, as far as possible, not only to 
use English during the English lesson, but to 
accustom the children to English words, without 
any attempt to drive out the vernacular. I have 
never objected to the vernacular being used ; but 
I have always insisted that the children should 
understand the words being taught, and use the 
vernacular where necessary, but gradually to use 
it less and less until, in Standard IY. I told the 
teachers the children must be able to understand 
English and understand my questions without 
having them translated to them. - 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 383 

2381. Then, in Standard IT. and upwards, you Mr.Wmiam 
consider English ought to be the medium ? — Ben^ilH&.A. 
Certainly; that is in view of the fact that the Ul ~ 1908 
natives are mixed up with the Europeans here, 

and a man is twice as useful, as a citizen, if he 
can speak English, even if he is a servant. 

2382. Below Standard IV. ?— Below Standard IT. 
my practice always is to allow them to use 
the vernacular if necessary, but on the under- 
standing that they are to use less and less as the 
standard rises. 

2383. Then it would be difficult to say exactly 
what was the medium. You would rather put it 
in the way you have than say either one or the 
other language was the medium in the lower 
standards ? — No ; I could not say one or the other 
was the medium. 

2384. As to the instruction in Kafir, do you 
think there ought to be definite instruction in 
Kafir for the Kafir children throughout the 
course ? — I certainly think the children ought to 
learn to read and write their mother tongue, and I 
think it is not right they do not, but I have had no 
authority to insist on it and so have not taken the 
stand that they are bound to read and write Kafir ; 
but invariably if they have taught Kafir I have ex- 
amined in it, and up to Standard III. I examine 
them on only half the English book if Kafir is 
reasonably taught. But I find with that concession 
very few schools indeed avail themselves of it. 
chiefly because the teachers say the parents do not 
supply the children with books or that they use 
Kafir in the Sunday schools. Those have been the 
two chief reasons given when I have asked about 
it. I did not insist upon it because I did not con- 
sider I had been authorized to do so. 

2385. Do you find there is an insufficient know- 
ledge of Kafir amongst the Kafir children ? — Yes, 
in the towns more especially. I am examiner in 
Kafir to the Cape University, and one can see there 
by the papers that are shown that a great many 



384 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. wiliiam ought to study their language more than they do, 
Benn^r b.a. ana I have reported to that effect from year to 

— vear. 
jni y i8,i9os^ 2g86 "Why do you think the insufficient know- 
ledge of Kafir is unfortunate ? — Because I think it 
is desirable that they should retain their language. 
One would be sorry to see children speaking a 
language and speaking it incorrectly. If it were 
one language, well and good, but if they speak 
neither of them well you have the feeling that it 
is generally unsatisfactory. They have their old 
national life and their old national customs, and 
if they break away from those entirely before they 
have quite taken on civilized life it leaves them 
in the condition of being neither the one thing nor 
the other. 

2387. Do you think in the earlier stages that it 
is possible to give instruction through the medium 
of English without making the instruction some- 
what mechanical ? — If it is properly taught it ought 
never to be mechanical at all. because children are 
supposed to begin with simple conversational 
lessons on modern principles, that is, by teaching 
them the name of the thing from the thing itself. 

2388. That is instruction in English ?— Yes. 

2389. I am not speaking of instruction in Eng- 
lish ; I am speaking of instruction in other subjects 
through the medium of English ? — But in this 
way they pick up English, and then English is 
used as thev are learning'. 

2390. Take arithmetic. Is it best to begin the 
study of arithmetic with English or with the 
vernacular ? — Not in Sub- Standard A., certainly 
not, only when you get a little further on in 
arithmetic you are bound to go to English, because 
the enumeration is so cumbersome in Kafir. I 
should never expect a child to be taught any 
subject in a language he did not understand ; but 
we have had to bring pressure on the teachers to 
teach in English, and not make it entirely the 
vernacular so that when they get higher they will 
be learning like parrots, without understanding 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 385 

what is done. Before that was done they used Mr wmiam 
the vernacular to a very great extent, and conse- Bennk^B.A. 
quentlv these English books they learnt were T . ;~ 1flAQ 

n "t t m-i it j i i July 18, 1908. 

learnt by heart. They could repeat whole pages 
without understanding their meaning, such as 
great lists of towns and paragraphs of history ; 
but since we have insisted upon this the results 
have been very much better, and teaching is very 
much more intelligent than it was. I have made 
out some figures with regard to my own circuit. 

2391. Mr. W. P. Schreiner:] Glen Grey ?— And 
part of Tembuland and the Transkei. The new 
standards were brought into effect just about the 
time I was appointed, or shortly afterwards. I 
picked out five of the leading schools in the 
Xalanga. In 1895, at my inspection, 521 per cent, 
were in the Sub-Standards, 74*9 per cent, in the 
Sub- Standards and Standard I. and 1/5 per cent, 
were in Standard IY. There were none above 
that. Then I got the figures from the present 
inspector's last inspection that he made. The 
percentage in Sub- Standards was 434, the Sub- 
Standards and Standard I. together 549, Standard 
IY. 6*3 per cent. In 1895 the percentage in Sub- 
Standards and Standard I. was 749 and in 1907 58*8. 
The new standards came into force in 1895. 1 
mention these figures because they show how 
in schools where the system has a fair chance 
what great advance has taken place in 12 years. 
I picked out five of the larger schools in the 
Xalanga, because if you take the whole results 
the results are obscured by new schools opening ; 
you do not see the advance in the old established 
schools, because of the number of new schools 
with lower percentages. I can give you the 
figures for certain schools in Engcobo, too, if you 
wish. 

2392. Chairman.] Perhaps you could put in a 
return ? — I will do. 

2393. Your feeling in this matter is that it might 
be well to insist more on a thorough instruction in 
Kafir for Kafir children ? — Yes. I think instead 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. BB 



386 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr William f being optional it might quite easily be made 
Benni^ a b.a. part of the course up to a certain standard. 
jni i7i9os 2394. What standard ? — Certainly Standard II., 
u y 1 ' and possibly Standard III. 

2395. That is inclusive ? — Inclusive. 

2396. Would it be possible or desirable to insist 
on inspectors having an understanding of the 
language ? — So few people knowing Kafir at present 
have the necessary educational qualifications and 
necessary professional experience that I do not think 
it would be possible to do so now. I think the 
inspector soon learns sufficient Kafir to be able to 
understand a good deal of what goes on. 

2397. You yourself know Kafir ?— Yes. 

2398. Do you find it an advantage in inspecting 
Kafir schools ? — Yes, so far as I always understand 
what the teacher says. I make a point of speaking 
to the children through the teacher in Kafir rather 
than addressing them myself in Kafir, partly with 
a view of judging of the teacher's ability and 
partly because they may be more familiar with his 
speech than with mine — but more especially just 
to test the teacher and give him an opportunity of 
showing what he can do. 

2399. It has been represented to us that the 
standards which provide for European children 
being taught for the most part through their own 
language and the application of those same stan- 
dards to Kafirs results, essentially and necessarily, 
in great pressure, almost in cramming. Is that 
your experience ? — There should be no cramming 
at all. It may lead, and I think it does lead, to 
their taking a little longer to go through the 
curriculum. If the teachers will only begin to 
teach the children to understand and speak the 
language in the earty standards, the pressure is 
very little indeed. The great pressure is when it 
is neglected in the lower standards and they get 
into the upper standards without a knowledge of 
English, and then the pressure does become very 
severe, and they are liable to become disheartened, 
and perhaps stick altogether. It was through 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 387 

finding this that we insisted on the teaching of Mr. wniiam 
English not only during the English lesson but, as Benn?™ b.a. 
far as possible, in the school in giving commands Jul l j 1QQS 
and directions and so on. The children pick it up u y 
easily if the teachers will only insist on it, and if 
it is done then it saves a very heavy, discouraging 
pressure later on in reading. 

2400. You do not think the intervals between 
the standards are too long in the case of Kafir 
children if they have had a thorough grounding 
in English in the early stages ? — They are too long 
for many English children, and of course if the 
language difficulty is added, and it has not been 
attended to in the earlier stages, they do become 
considerably too long for natives ; but my point is 
if they would attend to and teach English properly 
in the early standards there is not a great differ- 
ence between the native and the English, except 
that the English child often picks up a good deal 
of education by hearing talk at home. That is a 
very important factor ; it is a very great advan- 
tage, and a thing which is often lost sight of. 

2401. That is so ? — It is a thing which shows itself 
in white children of different classes — that the one 
child goes sailing through the class with good, 
general intelligence, and the other, who hears 
nothing outside the school but the talk of the street 
and the shop, finds a great deal more difficulty in 
attaining to the same degree of education ; every- 
thing has to be done for him in school. 

2402. After allowing for both the language ques- 
tion and the influence of the home, do you think 
there is grave objection to the present system of 
standards for Kafir children ? — Certainly not. The 
percentage of advances for Kafir children is less 
than for white children, certainly, but it is not a 
great deal less, and there are other reasons, not 
connected with the system, which are sufficient to 
account for it, such as the great irregularity of 
attendance and the absence of home education. 

2403. I suppose there is considerable difficulty 
in getting adequate text-books in Kafir, is there 



388 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

not ? — There are only two or three sets of Kafir 
readers that I know of. There is certainly an 
opening for a good set of Kafir readers on modern, 
lines. 

2404. Do 3^011 think the Government could do 
anything to procure readers of that kind ? — I think 
if something could be done it would be very 
desirable, but then you have the difficulty of 
seeing that the Government does not enter into 
competition with Lovedale and other readers. 
They might think they were subjected to unfair 
competition. That is, of course, not a matter for 
me, but I do think there is an opening for a good 
set of Kafir readers on modern lines. 

2405. Is there adequate instruction in morals 
and religion in the Kafir schools with which you 
are acquainted ? — If there is not it rests with the 
managers and the teachers. 

2406. You, as an inspector, know nothing 
directly, officially, about it ? — We always take 
cognisance of the discipline of the school and the 
general bearing and manners of the children, 
which would come, I suppose, under moral train- 
ing, and we lay considerable stress on that. 
Although it has been said that they are neglected,, 
it is not so. But with regard to religious instruc- 
tion, we allow half-an-hour to be given to it,, 
though we do not examine in it. 

2407. Is it your impression that sufficient 
attention is paid to this subject ? — I have heard 
missionaries in my own circuit complain that 
teachers neglect it in favour of subjects in which 
the children would be examined on inspection, but 
my reply always was that the missionary was the 
employer and it was his business to insist on the 
teacher giving that instruction and examine it 
himself to see that it was thorough. I do not 
think that is a subject the Government inspector 
could be asked to examine in at all. 

2408. You do not think it would be possible for 
the inspector to examine in that ? — I think it might 
not be desirable, because he might belong to a 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 389 

different denomination, or have different religious Mr.wmiam 
opinions, to the managers of the school. Benm™B.i 

2409. Do you not think it would be possible to T , - M 

i nx. .c t • • j. July 18, 190$ 

agree to some common syllabus ot religious instruc- 
tion which it would be possible for inspectors to 
examine in ? — I do not think the inspector could 
be called upon to examine in religious instruction 
at all, unless he was merely to examine them on 
the facts of Bible history. As regards the syllabus, 
I think a number of the Churches would agree to a 
common syllabus, but I feel quite sure there ivould 
be one or more others who would not, because they 
are not satisfied with Biblical instruction. 

2410. You mean to say they would agree on a 
syllabus of religious teaching or of Bible teaching ? 
— Something on the lines of the Germonica 
cathechism, which was drawn up for the Germonica 
schools, embodying those parts of religion on 
which most Churches agree. 

2411. You think it would be possible to do that 
w r ith regard to Bible teaching ? — With certain 
Churches, but some of the Churches consider a 
Church doctrine is an essential part of religious 
teaching, and they would not be satisfied with it. 
I do think that this is part of the missionary's 
work, that he should see to, and not the Govern- 
ment. As soon as the Government, or a Govern- 
ment official, takes up the religious question it 
puts it in rather an awkward position. 

2412. You think that applies to simple Bible 
liistory teaching ? — You have ideas of Bible history 
which might differ to other men. Some will 
teach them as facts' and others will teach them as 
traditions and something approaching the mythical. 
I think rather than have an uns} r mpathetic 
examiner, or have one whose opinions do not coin- 
cide with those of the manager of the school, it is 
far better the manager should attend to it himself, 
or appoint one of his assistants to do so. 

2413. It is very desirable there should be such 
instruction in the schools? — Oh, yes. I think 
native education must be connected with mission 



390 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William work f or some time to come, because they are. at a 

BencieT a B.A. critical state when they are shaking off a good 

Jul iTiios marj J °£ the old tribal ties and customs which 

- ' were a restraint to them and they have not yet, so 

to speak, put on the clothing of civilization — the 

restraining customs and influences of a civilized 

race. 

2414. It is your explanation that there is a cer- 
tain tendency to neglect in the schools subjects* 
which are not examined by the inspectors ? — 1 am 
told there is. I used to be told there was in regard 
to the religious instruction, for example — that 
teachers prepared for what was to be examined. 

2415. Then I understand your opinion to be that 
the teaching is difficult ; it is difficult to have it 
unless it in inspected and that it is difficult to 
inspect it? — I do not say that tendency of the 
teachers is to be permitted ; I think it ought not to be 
allowed. I think, as the employer, the missionary 
should put his foot down and say this shall be 
done, and examine it regularly, 

2416. Do you think he would have the same 
weight as the Government inspector in his exami- 
nation ? — He pays the teacher, and the teacher is 
his employee and subject to his direction. 

2417. Is it not a fact that the inspector has the 
decision as to the promotion of the children from 
standard to standard ? — I was not considering that 
the religious instruction would enter into the 
question of promotion at all. The subject of the 
promotion of children will come up later in my 
evidence, I suppose. 

2418. Is there any teaching in what is known as 
hygiene in the schools? — Not as far as I know — 
not direct teaching. 

2419. But the general influence is in the right 
direction with regard to this ? — Certainly. The 
teachers are taught to see that the children keep 
themselves clean, and that they attend to the 
ordinary rules of health, but I am not aware that 
lessons devoted to that end are given. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 391 

2420. Do you think it would be desirable if they Mr.wmiam 
were given ? — I think it might be very good if we Bew^B.A. 
had teachers who could give them, but a little — 
knowledge is a dangerous thing in some of these u y b ' 
matters. 

2421. Do you think it would be advisable gradu- 
ally to train the teachers themselves to be able to 
give simple lessons in these matters ? — Yes, if they 
are very simple and not too elaborate. I must say 
that some of the books which have been prepared 
for the children's use — on physiology and such 
like — deal with subjects it is far better for a child 
not to worry itself about ; that is, they are rather 
apt to think too much of their little bodies, and 
become, in fact, almost morbid. 

2422. You think that danger might be avoided, 
and if it were avoided the inculcation of some 
simple rules might be of advantage ? — Quite so. 

2423. I suppose there is needlework teaching 
for thQ girls in all the schools ? — Wherever there 
is a female teacher. 

2424. Is there manual training for the boys ? — I 
have one school where they have woodwork — 
what you might call a higher grade mission school. 
The boys are taught woodwork while the girls 
learn needlework. I have another school where 
the missionary has a good piece of ground attached 
to his house, where the boys turn out to do 
gardening during the time the girls do needlework. 
Otherwise, the boys are usually set to work on 
arithmetic or some other subject. More woodwork 
might be taught, but it is more expensive to start 
and rather expensive to keep up. 

2425. Do you think manual instruction is 
particularly necessary ? — I think it is highly 
desirable. 

2426. It appears the girls are better off than the 
boys in this respect ? — Yes, because the needlework 
material, of course, is easily prepared. I may say 
that this mission school which started woodwork 
started it on my recommendation, but the expense 
worked out so great that I think if they had 



392 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William known beforehand they might not have started it. 

Benni ? ™B.A. It is an expensive thing to begin. 

Jul i7i908 2427. The same applies, to some extent, even to 
gardening ? — The equipment for gardening would 
be much less except for the land. The land is the 
great difficulty, because the school sites are usually 
chosen for reasons which would make the land 
unsuitable for gardening. 

2428. Do you think teaching in building, brick- 
making and so forth, would be possible and advan- 
tageous? — There is no doubt about its being 
advantageous. It might be possible in some of 
the big institutions, but there you have the 
difficulty that they cannot go on building always 
— not merely building walls to pull them down 
again — and the}" might have to go away to other 
places for their building, and then you get reasons 
connected with the discipline making it unde- 
sirable. 

2429. Have you any definite scheme to propose 
to fill what appears to be a gap in regard to this 
provision of manual instruction for boys ? — There 
was a branch in woodwork with which Mr. Mor- 
rison was concerned in making a beginning — that 
is to say, simple stick work. Instead of having 
timber and carpenters' tools, they used sticks and 
a knife and perhaps a few brads. That is used in 
some of the white schools in my circuit by the boys 
while the girls do needlework. It has not been 
highly developed, and it does not appear to be 
growing to any extent. 

2430. You have no suggestions of your own to 
put forward on this subject ? — I am afraid I have 
not at present. The gardening would be what I 
would like to see if we could only find land, but 
that was considered some time ago, and it was 
found, except in a few cases, to be impracticable. 
I think it is desirable that gardening should be 
taught, with a view to giving them an interest in 
the land and trying to keep them on the land. 

2431. Do you think there is a demand for 
secondary education among the natives ? — Yes, 
there is no doubt that there is. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 393 

2432. Do you think it is a legitimate demand ? — Mr. wiiiiam 
I think if people pay taxes they have a perfect BennS^RA. 
right to ask that they shall have facilities if they Jul — i9Qg 
are willing to pay for it. I do not think the u y 
secondary education given should be given at any 
ridiculously cheap fees. I think they must be 
prepared to pay for it and show their desire for it 

by being willing to pay reasonable fees. I think, 
from what they have said at their various meet- 
ings, that they are willing. 

2433. You think it would be an advantage for 
the State to have some measure of control over the 
system which has developed ? — Certainly. I think 
it is most important. I should be very doubtful 
of a scheme which started without any State con- 
trol at all. 

2434. Do you know anything of the scheme for 
the Queen Victoria Memorial College ? — I do not 
know r very much about it. It has been discussed 
for a long time now in the columns of the Izwi, 
which seems to be the organ of the party support- 
ing it. I cannot gather that any very great pro- 
gress has been made in connection with the funds. 

2435. You were present at the Lovedale Conven- 
tion the other day ? — Yes. 

2436. I understand you are interested in the 
scheme for the Inter- State College ? — Yes. I have 
followed the development of it with some interest 
as far as I have known much about it, but it is 
not in my circuit, and I have just followed it as 
one saw it in the papers. 

2437. Do you think that movement is on the 
right lines ? — The general movement of giving 
them secondary education ? 

2438. No— the movement to establish the Inter- 
State College. Avith a view to giving the secondary 
and higher education which is needed ? — I must 
say I do not agree with all the details of the pro- 
posal, but in regard to the main idea I think a 
college of that sort is extremely desirable. 

2439. What points do you not agree upon ? — 
Well, rib pronouncement was made in the matter 



394 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr wiiiiam a t the Convention, but we gathered that the col- 
Beimie™B.A. lege, f or one thing, wished to be its own examining. 
Jul 1T1908 ^ody and have a curriculum entirely of its own. 
'That is just the impression I got, and I suggested 
at the Convention that they should rather at the 
beginning adopt the curricula of the high schools 
and the Cape University, seeking to obtain such 
modifications of these curricula as appealed to be 
necessary for natives after trial, because the natives 
particularly wish that they shall have the same 
examinations and go through the same course as 
the white people, and have degrees of equivalent 
value, even if the subjects were not identical. I 
have never discussed the matter very fully with 
any of the promoters, and I do not know what 
their ideas are in regard to the different States 
contributing, and what form the inspection would 
take. I think with an Inter- State College it might 
produce conflicting interests in connection with the 
different States, and one questions whether it would 
not be better to have it practically under the control 
of one State ; but they may have considered this 
matter and have a solution of it. As I say, I have 
not discussed the matter with Mr. Henderson and 
others. At the Convention there were a great 
many speakers, and one was not able to obtain 
light on these matters. 

2440. From your experience as an inspector, do 
you think the present system of individual in- 
spection is a desirable one ? — I think it is not only 
desirable but most necessary at present. 

2441. Does that particularly apply to Kafir 
schools? — It applies to the majority of white 
schools too in the country. The reasons for this 
are that until we have a greater number of w r ell- 
trained teachers who have a sufficient knowledge 
of the standard of excellence required, teachers, in 
their desire to see the children advancing, tend to- 
promote them before the work has been thoroughly 
done, and there is the fact that parents bring very 
great pressure to bear on teachers to have their 
children advanced. I have had to put my foot 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 395 

down very strongly in one district to insist that Mr wiiiiap 
children shall not be advanced without consulta- Benn^B.A. 
tion with me, simply because we found they were Jul ,~ 1908 
put in standards they were quite unfit for, and the 
time in school was being wasted, because they 
were not in a state to assimilate the work in the 
higher standards. Class inspection has been held 
up to the Cape as a model to follow in the same 
way as in England, but the Cape is in a very 
different state to England in this matter. 

2442. Do.you think it is possible to assign a just 
value to each of the children in the time you take 
for inspection? — Cases arise of children who are 
just on the borderline, with whom it is a 
matter of chance whether they pass or not ; 
they may pass to-day and not to-morrow, and vice 
versa. Such a child is better to remain in the 
standard in which he is, rather than go forward 
to one he is not fit for. In the case of a child 
whose work is good as a whole, the teacher is at 
liberty to consult with me ; in fact at the end of 
inspection I always ask the teacher whether he 
considers there is any child who has been unfor- 
tunate in the matter, and we talk it over, and 
where there has been time I have often given a 
second examination in subjects in which he has 
failed. I always indicate such children on the 
calendar for promotion. In other cases, where I 
have not had time to re-examine, I have told the 
teacher he can put forward the child during the year 
if he is satisfied. In some cases I recommend it. 
and in other cases leave it to the teacher to do it 
on his own responsibility if necessary. Sometimes 
he is justified in doing so, and sometimes it means 
a bad failure the following year. Of the two evils, 
I prefer to see a child kept in a standard for two 
years rather than put him into a standard he is 
not fit for, which often means spoiling his educa- 
tion for two or three years ahead. 

2443. Are there any general instructions to 
inspectors as to carrying out these principles you 
have been sketching to us ? — I believe instructions 



396 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William have been drawn up, and that inspectors later 
Benni^B.A. appointed have seen them ; I mean they are given 
7 1908 ^° ^ e l a ^ er inspectors on appointment. 

2444. Is this co-operation with teachers which 
you speak of generally carried out with the inspec- 
tors, as far as you are aware ? — I cannot say how 
far it is carried out, but of those inspectors with 
whom I have worked I think I can say that they all 
realize the teacher's interest in this matter, and 
they do not carry out the examination in any hide- 
bound and bigoted fashion. I am sure I never 
worked with any inspector who examined in this 
fashion, and I have worked with a great many. 

2445. I suppose the danger of mechanical ex- 
amination is as well understood by inspectors as by 
anybody else, even by public men ?■ — Quite so, 
because the inspector has been a teacher himself, 
and he knows the matter from both sides. 

2446. You do not recommend any alteration in 
this matter ? — Of inspection ? 

2447. Yes ? — Certainly not in the case of native 
schools. 

2448. It has been put before us that the arrival 
of the inspector is the occasion for a general panic 
amongst the teacher and children in a school. Is 
that your experience ? — I think that is an old idea 
which dies hard. It has certainly not been my 
experience. I may say the children do become 
excited, and may become nervous, but it is not fear 
of the inspector, so much as fear that they will not 
do as well themselves as they wish to do. I think 
the old-fashioned idea of the raging inspector is 
dying out now. In my own circuit, and in the 
case of a number of others whom I know, there 
are absolutely no grounds at all for such fear. 
There is that nervousness arising from the child's 
own fear that he will not do as well as he expects 
to do. No matter how gentle one were that fear 
would remain, and any reasonable inspector seeks 
to put the children at their ease at the examina- 
tion, because he wishes to find out what they 
know, and not what they do not know. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 397 

2449. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] You have been for Mr.wmiam 
some years inspecting after the establishment of Benn^T^A. 
the Glen Grey system in that part ? — It was intro- — 
duced while I was in Glen Grey, and I left in 1902, u y ' 

so it had been in operation about 7 years. 

2450. So you saw^ the Council system in its 
birth ? — Yes. 

2451. In its relation to education, you saw how 
it affected education. Now how did it work 
there ? Did the introduction of the Council sys- 
tem give a stimulus to the education of the 
native ? — If my memory serves me rightly, for 
some time after it was introduced the schools did 
not profit. 

2452. And then it began to move ? — I mean to say 
no money was paid, and afterwards a school rate 
was added to the ordinary Council rate. That led 
at once to a very considerable increase in the 
attendance for one thing, and it made the teachers' 
salaries more assured, although I do not remember 
that it made them very much higher. I would 
always have liked when I was there to have seen 
a higher rate of pay to the native teachers made 
by the Council, but the Council did not see its way 
to" do it. 

2453. In the Native Territories — you spoke of 
Engcobo — has that been under your charge ? — It 
was for 8 years, but there was no Council system 
at the time I left. 

2454. Have you contrasted the native school 
system during those years when you were inspect- 
ing with the Council system in Glen Grey, and 
over the border where there was no Council sys- 
tem ? Which was working best in the interests of 
education ? — I think there is no doubt at all that 
education does benefit where there is a Council. 

2455. Is it important that the element of Govern- 
ment representation should be maintained in the 
Council ? — Do you mean for school purposes ? 

2456. The Council as a whole, and then the 
school work of the Council ? — Yes. I think 
Government nominees are verv desirable indeed 



398 MINCTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE 

Mr wiliiam f or the Council generally. The school committees 

Benn?™ b.a. have no Government nominees. 

! iTioos 2457. In the control of the native schools gener- 

' ally in the country, do you think the missionary 

effort and work, where it is available, can be 

dispensed with at present in favour of some form 

of democratic committee management ? s — No ; I 

am not in favour of that at all. 

2458. That is not on account of prejudice, but 
by experience of the working of the thing ? — Yes. 
I may say cases have arisen more than once where 
a teacher has been found incompetent, or has 
given rise by his conduct to necessity for dismissal, 
and, on the other hand, he has wormed himself 
into the good graces of one or two of the leading 
men on the school committee, and it has "come to 
be a struggle between the missionary and the 
people as to whether an undesirable teacher should 
be kept on or not, and it has only been the 
Government support which has given the mis- 
sionary the power to get rid of an undesirable 
man. 

2459. A man whom you, as an inspector, would 
say you know to be undesirable would be 
kept on, in practical experience, through his 
influence on some very well meaning person 
who would have power, but not judgment, 
in the matter ? — I think so. I do not think that 
the average erf-holder, or the average inhabitant, 
is sufficiently developed, educationally and other- 
wise, to have the whole responsibility in this 
matter. 

2460. Now, taking your work where you are 
now, you spoke of the medium of education in the 
Kafir schools being Kafir and English used in the 
lower standards with a view to the acquirement of 
both ? — Yes. 

2461. Though you used the word " subsidiary " 
medium ; you said you could not properly speak 
of them as the medium ? — My meaning is in the 
lower classes Kafir might be the principal medium, 
but in Standard III. English might be the chief 
medium. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 399 

2462. It would be a matter of using which was Mr wiiiiam 
most beneficial ? — Yes, and preparing the way for Benn^B.A. 
the use of English in the upper classes, because T . - 1Mfl 

n i • -. i. 4.1? -i July IS, 1908. 

that is what they wish. 

2463. A small child going to school, and under- 
standing only one language, must be approached 
through that language, otherwise there is no 
approach ? — No approach except through interpre- 
tation. 

2464. That is still approaching that mind through 
that medium ? — We have cases of children com- 
ing to the Grahamstown schools knowing only 
Yiddish. 

2465. Therefore the teachers where those two 
languages are to be taught must know both 
languages ? — Certainly. 

2466. And the inspector should know both ? — It 
is more valuable if he does know both languages, 
although he can get over the difficulty by transla- 
tion. 

2467. The knowledge of the different languages 
is particularly valuable to a native child whose 
future is probably one of service — wage-earning ? 
— Yes. My point was. whatever his future, both 
languages are particularly valuable to him. 

2468. How about a district like Somerset East, 
or that part of the country, where there are many 
native labourers on the farms where Dutch is 
spoken. Is not the knowledge of Dutch very 
important to the children there ? — It certainly is. 

2469. Is not that so that wherever they may 
have to go on to farms afterwards where Dutch is 
spoken they should learn that language ? — 
Certainly, in a district where Dutch was the 
prevailing language they should learn Dutch. I 
may say in the case of these natives who are 
mingled with the white races the little children 
pick up the white man's language, especially on 
farms, at a comparatively early stage. 

2470. Whichever the language may be? — 
Whichever the language may be. I had in my 
mind rather the education of the mass of the 
natives who are living in native reserves. 



400 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. wiiiiam 2471. I was drawing attention to the principle 

BennL^B.A. in a case where the native is likely to 

— spend, his life in an environment where Dutch-is 

' desirable. You do not want your evidence to be 

narrowed to the idea that he must necessarily 

learn English ? — No, except that the text-books 

used in the classes, if he goes anywhere beyond 

Standard IV., would probably be in English, and 

the parents themselves set great value on it r 

because it is so necessary when they go into towns 

to work, as being the commercial language. 

2472. Is it not necessary for them to fit them- 
selves for accidents of change in future life, and 
so have a certain knowledge of both English and 
Dutch ? — It would be a very great advantage to 
know both. 

2473. Is not that a practical way in which the 
education of the natives should be advanced— 
that they should not have so much the idea of 
simply learning English and Kafir, but that you 
should inculcate a little more of the study of 
Dutch, seeing that they must go to work, very 
often, under Dutch people ? — If it can be done 
without adding a greater weight to the curriculum r 
but 1 had in my mind the continual cry that the 
curriculum is already overburdened. 

2474. Taking the cry to be a sound one, would it 
not be very desirable to give the native a knowledge 
of the language of his probable future master, and 
so encourage him to go into that employment, on 
the farms and so on, where labour is so much re- 
quired and difficult to get ? — Yes. 

2475. You want to encourage him to work in the 
future by any educational system ? — Yes. 

2476. Any educational system not teaching that 
is not a success ? — No, it is not. 

2477. With regard to inspection, it has been 
strongly suggested here that in native schools 
class inspection is far preferable to individual in- 
spection. Which opinion do you share ? You 
have spoken of it already. I suppose you are not 
in favour of class inspection ? — No. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. , 401 

2478. Is class inspection any other than a polite Mr. win™ 
wsly of eliminating the inspector ? — It eliminates Benn^B.A. 
him from matters of promotion, and to a very ~ 908 
great extent it diminishes his weight in school, uy 

but I would not say it entirely eliminated him, 
because by reporting very strongly upon a faulty 
class he would have some hold on the teacher, but 
by no means would he have the same weight and 
influence in the school that he has at present. 

2479. In class inspection — one speaks as a lay- 
man — must not the result be that the smarter 
minds pull the weaker minds along with them 
and carry them through the inspection ? — Yes, 
they do to a great extent. If you have a class 
inspection, it makes it rather difficult to avoid 
that being so. 

2480. If you have half-a-dozen smart children in 
a class who are very much up to the mark, and 
answer everything asked them very intelligently, 
is it very easy to say the class does not pass inspec- 
tion, or to test the bulk ? — Certainly to test the 
bulk, I think the individual inspection is by far 
the better, because, as you say, a few bright ones 
help to pull the class through, unless one drops 
constantly on those not answering. 

2481. After all, the smart ones are those not 
needing inspection ? — Yes. 

2482. And that is what I meant by saying it 
eliminates the function of the inspector, whose 
idea is not to find the smart children, but to ascer- 
tain the state of the average pupil's mind ? — That 
is so. 

2483. Chairman.] Have you any experience of 
class inspection ? — If I pay an informal visit I 
sometimes have a class inspection in subjects that 
have been reported as weak, if I have not time for 
individual inspection. 

2484. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Does it not put the 
inspector in the hands of the teacher to a certain 
extent ? He cannot carry on class inspection with- 
out, to a certain extent, a measure of reference to 
the teacher, can he ? — No ; he would have to go by 

[A. 1-08.] Native Education. CC 



402 g MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr wiiiiam what the teacher told him the children had done 
Ben D Te Va B.A. during the time, which, I presume would have to 
Jul L8 1908 ^ e SUDmr tted to him beforehand. 

2485. In nine out of ten times the teacher would 
be telling the truth, but you want to find in the 
tenth case whether the work is done well or 
scamped ? — I think the class inspection would be 
fatal. They are already too fond of advanced 
work. 

2486. Class inspection is bad, the missionary 
effort cannot be done away with and the demo- 
cratic system introduced ? — No. 

2487. Taking the Glen Grey natives, can you 
give any suggestions of practical improvement 
which you think could be adopted without very 
great expense in the system of book education ? — 
To my mind the crux is the matter of the teacher, 
and if we could get good teachers and then get the 
teachers to remain in the profession in larger 
numbers, it would probably do more than anything 
else to make education a success. 

2488. And to get those teachers you must have 
them properly trained ? — You must have them 
properly trained to start with and pay them a 
salary sufficient to keep them. 

2489. To induce the brighter minds not to 
change from teaching to another, avocation ? — Yes. 

2490. In speaking of the better training of the 
teachers, do you feel you can criticize the present 
system in a practical way, and say what could be 
done in a practical way to make the training of 
the teacher better ? — I do not think I could make 
any suggestions with regard to the syllabus as at 
present provided ; in fact some of the training 
schools are turning out really well trained teachers 
at present. 

2491. You think so ?— Yes. 

2492. It is working in that respect in some of 
the training schools satisfactorily ? — Yes. I have 
men who would be a credit to any training school. 

2493. Are those men you have turned out in that 
way a good type of intellectual, educated 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 403 

humanity ? Do you think they take culture, or is Mr.wmiam 
it a mere veneer of civilization ? — No, it is not a BennSTsA. 
veneer. Jul ~ 1908 

2494. Are they really men whose minds as well 
as their heads have been brought to a higher level ? 
— I should say just as in the case of white teachers 
you have some who go through the course and do 
not attain that culture, but I have had. and have 
still, men who have all that you say, as the result 
of their training. 

2495. Yoa cannot put a percentage on it, but it 
is no inconsiderable portion of the men passing 
through that course ? — No inconsiderable portion 
from certain places where they are still trained. 
I may say the stamp of the institutions is very 
clear on the different men, and they have the 
different characteristics. 

2496. Hygiene would probably be best inculcated 
in the pupils by the example of trained teachers 
in that respect ? — Certainly. 

2497. Just as in European schools ? — Yes. 

2498. You do not teach hygiene as a subject in 
the European schools ? — No. 

2499. You inculcate the principles ? — Yes. 

2500. To do that the teacher should himself be 
instructed. Be should be a learner in hygiene 
and then it will infuse itself by example and 
inculcation rather than by class teaching to the 
children ? — Yes. I quite think it is very im- 
portant teachers should know the common 
principles of hygiene and ventilation and such 
things, but I think it is sometimes liable to be 
carried too far. 

2501. If brought down to the pupil ? — Yes. 

2502. In regard to the Native College, do you 
not think, as a suggestion, it would be better to 
call it a South African Native College instead of 
an Inter- State Native College ? — I do. 

2503. " Inter- State " Native College implies a 
continuous division between the parts of South 
Africa ; it is not significant of the real thing. It 
is intended to be done for the whole country, and 



404 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN: BEFORE THE 

Mr. William not merely for this Colony, in other words ? — The 
£ennS a B.A. point was raised at the Convention, and two- 
T , T >n reasons were given for preferring the name South 

Tulv 1 S 1 90^ J- T3 

"African Native College. One was that at present 
only one State was supporting it, and in future- 
there might possibly be only one State, even when 
it was supported throughout South Africa, 

2504. Still, it would be the college in South 
Africa for natives ? — Yes. 

2505. In that college the work to be done would 
be secondary and higher ? — Yes ; it would have to- 
be secondary at first until they had sufficient 
material. 

2506. It would be interesting to know whether 
your suggestion would be that there should be 
Governmental inspection in some form of the 
lower classes — what you might call the secondary 
education, below matriculation standard. Is that 
what I understand would be your idea? — Of course 
I had in my mind that this would probably be 
inspected just as a Government high school is up 
to a certain class by the Government high-school 
inspector. 

2507. You would not suggest that the higher 
work, if they passed through the standards 
towards University degrees, should be subjected 
to inspection ? — I would not suggest that any more 
than that Universities should be. 

2508. You consider the lower grade of work done 
there — probably by assistants, and not by pro- 
fessors themselves — would be well placed under 
inspection ? — I do. 

2509. In order that the State might be aware 
that the money which it contributed was really 
being contributed advantageously in that respect ? 
— Yes. If it were under one department, and that 
department contributed the money, it would cer- 
tainly have the claim that its inspectors should 
have access and test it the same as other high 
schools. 

2510. If only to give satisfaction to the public 
and to Parliament that the money was being 



SELECT COmiTTTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 405 

judiciously expended? — Quite so. I may say in Mr.wmiam 
the high schools the two highest classes — the Benm^B.A. 
school higher and matriculation — have only class — 
examination, if examined at all, but the inspector's u y ' 
visit is a real stimulus, and I believe a real help, 
to the teachers themselves, by pointing out the 
weaknesses he has observed generally and giving 
advice. I may state I said all this at the Conven- 
tion, and it was not very kindly received by some . 
of the promoters, but my opinions have not varied. 
I may say also that one of the speakers, who may 
have spoken for himself here, expressed the opinion 
that the parents would like the lower classes in 
the Inter-State College to be inspected. 

2511. In your experience of the native schools 
in this district or your other district, do you not 
think there is a certain slackness here and there 
in taking advantage of such opportunities as there 
are to give the pupils training in agriculture ? Is 
there sufficient attention paid everywhere to the 
facilities, where they do exist, for agricultural 
training ? — No ; I do not think I can say they take 
full advantage. Do you mean the managers of 
the schools ? 

2512. Yes ? — I do not think they makp as much 
of the subject as the}^ might in some of the insti-' 
tutions. 

2513. They do not regard it in a sufficiently 
practical light, perhaps ? — In all the institutions I 
know, the boys are supposed to do a certain 
amount of garden work, but in some cases it is 
well done, and in other cases, to a certain extent, 
is perfunctory. 

2514. If that were inculcated by the Department 
as being a really important element — if not a. con- 
dition — of earning the support from the State, it 
would be useful ?— Yes, and I think the gentle- 
man responsible for manual training might — and 
I think he does — give attention to the matter. I 
would point out they have manual training in the 
way of woodwork in these institutions. 



406 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William 2515. I am pointing out where there are facilities- 

Benni^B.A. f or agriculture the Department might inculcate 

Jul 18*1908 ^ e duty of seeing the children are instructed in 

'that respect. A circular, for instance, might be of 

use ? — Yes. 

2516. Both to the inspectors and managers ? — 
Yes, but my point was this, that to insist upon it 
when they are taking woodwork might possibly 
be met by the argument, " We are already giving 
manual training which you insist upon for the 
pupil teachers' course, and it will be pressing a 
little too hard if you force another system upon 
that." I think if it were represented to them that 
the Department thinks it is extremely desirable,, 
and officials visiting the school went into the 
matter and found what could be done, that would 
be good, but I would not be in favour of a set 
scheme. 

2517. No set scheme, but an impulse ? — That is 
exactly mv meaning. 

2518. Mr. Levey.'] Do you find the natives them- 
selves are attracted to manual labour, or do they 
prefer carpentering as a rule ? — Do you mean 
spadework ? 

2519. Yes ?— No ; I do not think they like it, or 
do it unless made to ; but I think that applies to 
white boys very much the same. It rests with 
the parents, to a very great extent. 

2520. Do y#u not think agricultural training in 
this country is one of the most important subjects 
the natives could learn, considering the fact that 
they have to live on the land? — As I said before,. 
I think every encouragement should be given for 
their remaining on the land and developing into 
peasant holders. 

2521. Do you not think agriculture is one of the^ 
most important subjects that could be taught to 
natives at the present time ? — I think it is an 
extremely important matter. 

2522. Of course I presume you mean that agri- 
culture is an important matter for both whites 
and blacks. Now take the case of 100,000 natives 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 407 

being trained at present in book-learning only, Mr.wmiam 
and not manual labour. What positions are open Bermi^B.A. 
to these boys in South Africa? — If you take the Jul ~ sl908 
case of a white boy, son of a farmer, he goes to 
school for what his father cannot giye him, and 
when he comes home again he will be put to the 
farm and made to work during the holidays 
and at other times ; and I think to some 
extent that obtains amongst the natives where 
the child is properly trained — that is to say, 
where he is made to work at home instead of 
being allowed to do as he pleases ; but I will quite 
agree that if you can give that boy more than his 
father knows in the way of agricultural training 
you are doing a service to the State by improving 
those who are to be the peasants. 

2523. Are you not aware that 90 per cent, at least 
of the native educated boys prefer positions of 
policemen, clerks and teachers instead of going 
back to the land, and it is a common complaint of 
the parents, Ci Our children will not work, unless 
they take situations " ? — I have often heard that 
stated, but my reply is that it is the parents' own 
fault ; that is to say, when the boy comes home 
the parents treat him as a little hero, instead of 
making him take off his jacket and work in the 
fields like any other member of the family. In 
that way the children have got this idea, There 
is also this point, that exactly the same thing- 
happened in England, as far as I can gather, when 
education became common. The first effect was a 
distaste for agriculture, until the ordinary natural 
law compelled those with a little education to go 
in for agricultural work. 

2524. The heathen father who does not read and 
write is fascinated with the education given his 
boy, and thinks it should give him everything ; 
the father thinks it will provide him with food and 
everything else ? — I think a good deal could be 
done if it were represented to them by the magis- 
trates what fallacies those views are. Mind 
you, I am not arguing against the necessity of 



408 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr G ™ am agricultural education, but pointing out that the 

Benm ? eT a B.A. fault is not entirely on the school. If we could 

Jul i7i908 nave agricultural schools all over the country we 

' would be glad, but agricultural schools for white 

boys have proved difficult, and would be much 

more so for native bo}^s. 

2525. Do you think it would be a good thing 
that the teachers should pass an examination in 
arboriculture or agriculture or manual labour of 
some kind, and increase their status and pay. and 
put them in a better position than at present ? As 
I understand, many teachers now will not take up 
teaching because it is not remunerative, but if you 
made the teacher's position better as an agricul- 
tural teacher you could supply the districts with 
the teachers, because they would be the teachers 
themselves. At some central place like Blyths- 
wood, what is the difficulty where they have the 
land ? I do not mean scientific education in 
agriculture, but teaching a man to trench and dig 
and cultivate, somewhat the same as in the Western 
Province ? — The difficulty is one I hinted at before 
— that they have their time very fully occupied, 
and yet we want them to do a good deal of prac- 
tically spadework. If you are going to introduce 
another subject of examination, and require a 
technical knowledge of agriculture which would 
be necessary in an agricultural teacher, you will 
knock something out of the curriculum we have 
at present and all of which we think necessary at 
present. 

2526. Do you think it is necessary to teach so 
much Greek and Latin as some are getting ? Do 
3 t ou not think work is more important ? Do you 
not think the native is getting away from work ? 
— The subjects taught to the teachers are elemen- 
tary school subjects. There is no Latin or Greek, 
They are all subjects having a bearing on mental 
training, without which the teacher would be 
insufficiently equipped for his work. 

2527. Do you not think hand training will im- 
prove the educated native — that it improves the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 409 

mental powers ? — They already recognise the con- Mr ^™^ am 
nection between the hand and the mind by the Benni^B.A. 
manual training they have— drawing and wood- ^ 1908> 
work. 

2528. You think it would be a good thing that the 
teachers should be taught agriculture ? — If I might 
express my view, it would be that at some time 
when the Native Council in the Transkei has got 
a good agricultural school established, the native 
teacher, after taking his ordinary T3 certificate, 
should be encouraged to go through to study 
agriculture thoroughly for a year or two, and then 
to be an agricultural teacher, perhaps to have the 
schools in a division, or a dozen schools at a time, 
visiting these schools for the purpose of instruc- 
tion. 

2529. You do not think it should be compulsory ? 
— I do not think it ought to be compulsory, not as 
part of his work for the third class teachers' 
examination. I think he has quite sufficient for 
that already. 

2530. You mentioned it was difficult to teach 
agriculture and in some places the schools are 
badly situated. You know the Transkei well. At 
a place like Butterworth, and other places where 
you have good soil and water facilities, do you 
not think it would be possible to concentrate 
several schools once a week and give a training in 
agriculture — that the teacher should take charge 
of the pupils and they should receive lessons in 
practical agriculture. Do you not think that 
would be a help .? — There are two difficulties there. 
One is that it is not desirable to take a large body of 
children away from their homes to some distance 
away for class purposes, and another is that I ques- 
tion very much how many parents would let their 
children go, because it is a sacrifice in many cases 
to let them come for the ordinary school hours, 
and if you take them away for an additional half- 
day or clay per week you may find that the parents 
will consider it unnecessary, because they are them- 
selves at present farmers. I do not say it is un- 



July 18, 1908. 



410 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr William necessary, but they will look at it in that way, and 
Benni^B.A. I think the parents would object. 

2531. Do you not find the parents complaining 
that the children come home and are no use in 
that respect ? — I know, but I think if you took the 
children aw r ay it would lead to complaint ; they 
want it brought to their doors, and I think if you 
took the children away you would then find the 
attendance irregular. 

2532. You know you have the children travelling 
ten and twenty miles in the Transkeian Territo- 
ries for the purpose of singing in a shield compe- 
tition, and w r hy not for the purpose of agriculture ? 
— That is once a year, and with agriculture it would 
be once a week. I think more would be done by 
having, as I suggested, a properly trained teacher 
who has really made a study of the subject visiting 
certain schools on certain days of the w r eek wher- 
ever a piece of ground — even if not a large piece — 
can be acquired. 

2533. You have no doubt read a good deal about 
Booker Washington's system in America ? — I have 
read something about it, but have not made a 
study of it. 

2534. Mr. T. Searle.} Can you tell the Committee 
whether the majority of the natives favour the 
Inter-State College scheme or the Queen Victoria 
Memorial scheme ? — I am afraid, living wdiere I 
am, I am not in a position to gauge the popular 
feeling in the matter. 1 take one paper which 
supports the Memorial scheme, and another paper 
supports the Inter-State College scheme. I do 
not feel I have sufficient knowledge to say. 

2535. You said you looked upon the missionary 
as the employer of the teacher. Do you think if 
the missionary were to insist upon a certain course 
of religious instruction, and the teacher were to 
represent that it hampered his other school work, 
the missionary would have any authority to en- 
force his views ? — He could not say it hampered 
his other work, because he is allowed to take half- 
an hour every day for this purpose. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 411 

2536. But do you not think if the teacher were Mr.wmiam 
to represent to the Department that the mission- BenniT^B.A. 
ary was interfering with the school work by {^ l909 
insisting on such a course, that the Department 
would be likely to back up the teacher against the 
missionary ? — I do not see how the Department 

could take up that ground, because there is 
the half -hour available, and the missionary has 
a perfect right to say he wishes it used for religious 
instruction, and not given for other subjects. 

2537. What do they use it for now ? — They are 
supposed to have religious instruction, and if they 
do not I can only suppose they use it for one of 
the ordinary school subjects. I may say that 
where the missionary has taken up a strong- 
stand in the matter, and made it clear when the 
teacher has begun work that this is required, and 
that it will be expected and will be examined, and 
that he will be expected to do justice to that part 
of the education, it is done. It may be said, perhaps, 
that the missionary has too many schools, but in 
such a case it would be open to him to appoint a 
native evangelist or assistant to do the work. 

2538. You know there is a strong desire on the 
part of the natives to have some say in the 
management of these schools ? — I am told there is. 
and I can quite understand it, because there is a 
movement in favour of local control, and I may 
say, as T mentioned before, in several cases — in 
fact a great many cases— there is such a committee; 
and the committee, with a tactful missionary, has 
really a considerable say in the government of the 
school — that is to say, the missionary strives to 
work through the committee, and not against it. 

2539. Would you recommend that, as far as 
possible, the missionary should have advisory 
boards to assist him? — I do not think the Depart- 
ment should recommend that. The missionary is 
responsible to the Department for the control and 
management of the school, and there are some 
places where the missionary might not be able to 
get a suitable committee together, where, for some 



412 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William reason or another, the people are such as would be 

Benn^B.A. unsuitable to form the committee, and you could 

— not urge the missionary then to have a committee 

July 18, 1908. t i • i 

under such circumstances. 

2540. Where the natives had themselves put up 
the school and where they were contributing all 
the funds and the missionary institution had really 
contributed nothing towards the school, on what 
grounds would you justify the missionary having 
the sole say in the management of the school ? — 
My experience has been that in the building of 
these schools the missionary has usually been a 
very important factor. He has often had to be a 
security for the cost of wood and iron. 
That argument has been used in cases 
where the buildings could not have been put 
up without the personal responsibility of 
the missionaries. Apart from that, the missionary 
stands as representative of the people. Ue is their 
minister in church affairs, and stands as the repre- 
sentative, and the Government accepts him. as such 
with regard to the school, but I think for the 
Government to say to him, " You must have a 
committee," would in some cases be hard on the 
missionary. 

2541. I am not expressing any view that I am in 
favour of it. I want to find out on what grounds 
— because you know, for instance, at that Conven- 
tion in January at Debe Nek, the Convention 
passed a resolution in favour of having these com- 
mittees, and that is their argument — I want to 
know on what grounds we can justify our position 
that the missionary still must have sole control of 
the schools ? — The most important ground is that 
the missionary is in close touch with the people. 
He is their representative and, educationally and 
otherwise, he is better qualified for the manage- 
ment of the school than — I do not say all, but than 
the average of his parishioners would be. and with 
regard to any buildings that have been put up and 
in regard to fees they put up the building and 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 413 

they pay the fees knowing the constitution of the Mr.wiiiiam 
school. The missionary is. in a sense, their trustee Benni^B.A. 
in these matters. ^ — j~ 

2542. Then, as a matter of fact, we should not 
take up the ground that the missionary is respon- 
sible for the refusal to have these committees, but 
that the Education Department, which contributes 
the grants, wishes the missionary to be the super- 
intendent and manager of the school ? — I am not 
expressing the views of the Department, but my 
own view that it is desirable the missionary should 
be the responsible person ; he may work through 
a committee or without a committee, as he pleases. 

2543. Then when they ■ say the missionary 
contributes nothing towards the school, our 
answer should be. " The Government does, and 
the Government expects the missionary to be the 
superintendent " ? — I do not see how they can say 
the missionary contributes nothing to the school, 
because he contributes a very great deal in the time 
and w^ork that he gives to it. He may not 
contribute any cash. 

2544. It has been represented to the Committee 
that the schools are over-inspected-, so that in many 
schools constant inspections upset the regular 
work. Do you think there is anything in that ? — 
As far as I know the schools are inspected once a 
year by the inspector. He may visit them 
informally at other times, but probably not more 
than once or twice a year. The instructors 
naturally go round and satisfy themselves as to 
the thoroughness of the teaching of the subjects 
for which they are responsible and to give help 
where desirable, but I do not see, if a school is 
well organized, that it should lead to any great 
upsetting of the school, because in the case of the 
instructor a class at a time is dealt with, or he 
moves from class to class without unduly upsett- 
ing the work as far as I know, but I may say I do 
not go round with the instructors, so I cannot 
always say what the procedure is. 

2545. I think it is more that they are in constant 
fear lest the inspector should drop on them, and 



414 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William they cannot settle down really to the ordinary 
Benm°I a B.A. work but have to be constantly engaged on special 
jui i7 1908 su ^3 ec ^ s ^ na ^ the inspector might be likely to 
pounce down upon them in regard to ? — I should 
think such a school would need a good deal of 
inspection, because if the work were in that state the 
chances are it would not be a very sound 
school. In a well-conducted school the work goes 
on irrespective of what official comes. The official 
comes and asks for certain classes, and puts thern 
through their facings, and it is finished. There 
need be no tremors of that sort when the work is 
properly conducted, and no interference with the 
time-table is necessary ; in fact, if I came across it 
I should object to it. 

2546. Do you think inspectors in needlework 
and singing are essential ? — They have done an 
enormous amount in improving the quality of the 
work in those subjects, because the circuit in- 
spector has a large number of subjects to examine 
in. He is himself not an expert in singing and 
needlework, although he might be able to tell 
good work when he saw it. I think without the 
special inspectors the subjects would score a very 
considerable loss. The improvement that has 
taken place since these inspectors were appointed 
in these subjects could not have been effected 
without some such appointment. 

2547. At the Lovedale Convention a resolution 
was passed in favour of making the vernacular the 
medium of instruction ? — It was at the meeting on 
Saturday morning. I am not sure where the Con- 
vention ended. As far as I understand, the Inter- 
State Convention ended on the Friday afternoon, 
and in the evening there was an informal dis- 
cussion, as I understood it — I may have been 
mistaken — on elementary education, and this was 
conducted on the Saturday. By that time the 
Convention was thinning. I do not say they 
would not have passed it otherwise, but I mention 
the fact. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 415 

2548. What is the opinion of the teachers in Mr.wiiiiam 
your circuit on this subject ? — They have never Bcnn^T^A. 
expressed to me any dissatisfaction with the Jul ^ 1908 
present scheme, and when I have asked them uy 
why they did not teach Kafir I have told you the 
reasons given — lack of books and lack of interest 

on the part of the parents. 

2549. You do not think it is correct, as has been 
represented to the Committee, that the teachers 
prefer teaching in English because they think it is 
a little more in keeping with their dignity, we will 
say ? — I do the teachers I have to do with the 
justice to think that they do the best they can, 
and if they find Kafir is necessary they will use it, 
but I think they have come to understand that 
unless they follow our instructions and use a good 
deal of English in the schools they pay for it in 
the upper standards. 

2550. We have been told also that it is not 
generally known that they are allowed to use the 
native language, even in the lower classes, for 
explaining things, and they must confine them- 
selves to English. Is that so ? — I have never been 
asked in the matter at all. It. is a matter the 
teacher might easily ask about if he found himself 
in any difficulty, and no teacher has ever pointed 
out that difficulty to me, or asked permission, nor 
have I ever objected to a teacher interpreting to a 
child in the lower classes where it could not 
understand English ; in fact I have told them to. 

2551. It is not correct that the teachers are 
absolutely obliged to use no Kafir at all, even for 
explaining ? — I can only speak for my own circuit 
and one or two inspectors I have worked with a 
good deal. It was stated to me at the Convention 
that some inspectors absolutely forbade Kafir, but 
one would like to hear the inspectors' side of that ; 
they may have misunderstood him. 

2552. In your circuit there is no such impression 
abroad among the teachers ? — I know of none. 
They know our views on the teaching of English, 
but I know of no impression that they are not to 
use Kafir. 



416 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William 2553. Can you explain the desire on the part of 
Benn^B.A. a certain section of the natives to go back to what 
— they call Dr. Dale's curriculum ? — I have seen 
c ' something about that, and I cannot help thinking 
those who use it are looking at the past through 
very rosy spectacles, which one is apt to do in 
looking at the past ; the past was a good time. If 
you compare the curriculum which was employed 
before the change in 1895, there can be no com- 
parison at all as to which is the best, educationally. 
I went right through Lovedale, f rom the lowest class 
to the highest, and we were educated on those 
standards. In the old standards there was no 
dictation in Standard I. They allowed one line 
and two mistakes in Standard II., six lines and six 
mistakes in Standard III., eight lines and four 
mistakes in Standard TV. Now they have dicta- 
tion in Standard I., having one line in that 
standard, and so on, increasing the amount in each 
standard : there is a grading all through. Then 
in arithmetic the grading was not- good. In 
Standard I. they had only simple addition. Then 
in Standard II. they had the whole of the simple 
rules up to short division. In Standard III. it 
was as now- long division and compound rules. 
At inspection one sum right out of three passed a 
pupil. Then in Standard IY. you got reduction 
and mental arithmetic, which was introduced then 
for the first time, instead of being introduced in 
Sub-Standard A, and also vulgar fractions, and 
they had to get two out of three right ; the per- 
centage constantly differed. Then in Standard Y. 
they had vulgar fractions, decimal fractions, 
practice, and proportion all put into one year, and 
they had to get two sums out of five right in that. 

2551. You think the present curriculum is far 
preferable ? — I have no doubt on the subject at all. 
I believe it was drawn up by practical teachers 
and they had a considerable say in it. 

2555. Do you think there is any advantage to 
the natives in learning English history ? — By all 
means. I think all history is illuminative. They 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 417 

are people who are interested in politics, in the Mr.wniiam 
sense of government, and I am sure they like to BennfJ^B.A. 
learn how the system of government under which — 
we live grew up, as compared with theirs. At uy 
the same time I do not think there is much to 
be gained by great detail in the matter. As a 
matter of fact, natives are not examined in history 
in any great detail as far as I know. I most cases 
it is sufficient for them if they have a good 
historical reading book and have a general ac- 
quaintance with the general trend of events. 

2556. The fact is you think any sub j ect of that kind, 
although they may not be able to see its exact prac- 
tical bearing, has the effect that all true education 
should have of developing the mind ? — Quite so. 
I do not think the elementary school is the place 
for beginning any special training for special 
walks of life, You want in the elementary school 
merely to train the mind by all the means you can 
employ in order to get a well developed mind on 
many sides. 

2557. You can only begin the more practical 
teaching, or trades and industries, later ? — After 
the elementary school stage. 

2558. Do you think that education makes the 
native a better man and more useful as a citizen ? 
— I have no doubt at all that education makes 
him a better citizen if he is a good man to start 
with, by increasing his usefulness and by increasing 
his wants, which make him use a very much 
higher class of goods in his daily life and a much 
larger contributor to taxation If he is inherently 
bad it gives much greater opportunities of doing 
evil, and hence we get the cases of poor fellows 
committing forgery or something of that kind, 
where education gives them the power to do it, 
but no education in a native school can lead him 
to do it. 

2559. It would apply equally to Europeans ? — 
Yes. No one would discourage European edu- 
cation because there had been a good deal of 
embezzlement lately. 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education! DD 



418 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. wiiiiam 2560. Colonel Stanford.'] Where you have a 
Benni^B.A. recognised native missionary, is he employed by 
T n ,T'L™ the Department in connection with schools in his 

July 18, 1908. . r . , ,, -, ., 

area m just the same way as a white missionary ; 
for instance, the Eev. Mr. Eubusana or the Eev. 
Mr. Sihlali ? — As far as I know in my experience, 
it depends to a great extent on his standing in his 
church. If he is superintendent in his own 
church he is accepted, but sometimes you have 
in a church a certain missionary superintendent 
of one or two native missionaries, and he retains 
control of the schools, but that is in virtue of his 
position as superintendent in the church. 

2561. But where the native missionary has 
attained the position of the European missionary 
then he is treated differently ? — As far as I know, 
not ; I have not heard of any such case. 

2562. If your teachers had felt any grievance or 
dissatisfaction in connection with the medium of 
instruction, do you think that they would have 
mentioned it to you without any hesitation ? — I feel 
sure they would, because I do not think I am 
saying too much when I say that those who have 
been some time under me have sufficient confi- 
dence in me to speak to me on a matter of that 
sort. 

2563. Do they ordinarily bring before you 
matters affecting administration and teaching and 
so forth in their schools ? — Not so much matters of 
of administration, which are usually discussed 
with the missionary, but they are quite ready to 
speak to me about anything difficult arising in 
their work. 

2564. Mr. van Root/.] There are various mission 
societies connected with the native schools in your 
area ? — Yes. 

2565. Are all those native and coloured schools 
more or less under the influence of one of those 
missionary societies ? — I have one school which is 
not under a missionary society, because it is 
managed by a board of missionaries. They came 
together, as it were, and formed a committee to 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 419 

manage a higher grade school for classes above Mr.wmiam 
Standard IV. I do not know whether you in- Benn^T^A. 
elude, as being under missionary societies, those ^^ 08 
schools connected with native churches which uy 
have arisen, like the Ethopian Church and such 
like ? There are some schools under the Ethopian 
ministers, I believe. I have none at present, but 
I believe there are some in other parts of the 
Colony ; I could not say for certain. 

2566. In appointing native teachers, is special 
regard given to the religious knowledge and faith?— 
In a mission school I think the missionary prefers to 
get a teacher of his own belief. I cannot say I 
have seen any bigotry in this matter, because the 
missionary appoints the teacher. He may consult 
with us or he may not. 

2567. In any case, I suppose the missionaries, as 
well as our Education Department, desire speci- 
ally that all native teachers shall possess a fair 
religious knowledge ? — The missionaries do, I sup- 
pose. I could not say what the standing of the 
Department is in that matter, because the Depart- 
ment, I take it, leaves religion to the Churches. 
The Department looks to the character of the man, 
certainly ; he must be a man of sound and good 
character. But I do not think the Department 
concerns itself with the religious belief of the 
teacher, or even his religious knowledge. That is 
as far as I have had any experience in working 
with teachers. 

2568. Who would judge of the religious qualifi- 
cations of the teacher before he is appointed to 
any particular school ? — The missionary appoint- 
ing him. 

2569. Would he have the power to refuse a 
teacher for his school simply because he did not 
satisfy him on the point of religion ? — No matter 
of that kind has ever come to my notice. I have 
never heard the complaint of a teacher who con- 
siders he is aggrieved in that way. But, being a 
mission school, you will understand it is rather 
different in that respect to a public school — just as 



420 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. wiiiiam in what are called church third class schools the- 
Benm>, a iB.A. religious element enters far more into the appoint- 



July 18, 1908. 



ment of teachers than in a public school, where it 
is not supposed to enter at all. ' 

2570. Do the missionaries, to your knowledge, 
exercise any political influence on the natives at 
all — I mean both in school and outside? — Speaking 
generally, I do not think missionaries, as a body, 
enter much into politics, except as far as they 
consider themselves friends and trustees of the 
natives. AYhere it is a question of native legisla- 
tion, if they think the native is to be unfairly 
dealt with, then of course they think they are 
bound to be his friend under those circumstances. 
I will not say they are all disconnected with 
politics, but as a rule I have found they prefer not 
to take part in politics, except in regard to native 
and religious questions. 

2571. Is there any special provision made for 
native children to have physical exercise, in the 
way of sport, in connection with these schools ? — 
They are all supposed to have physical drill, which 
is part of the curriculum, and in the institutions 
they have games. They have football and cricket 
clubs at most of the institutions, if not in all of 
them. As regards the schools in the country, there 
are not sufficient people to have games to any 
great extent, but in the locations I find the native 
boys playing cricket and football a great deal ; 
whether that is in connection with clubs inside or 
outside the schools, I do not know. 

2572. You do not think there is a danger of 
inculcating the idea with the natives that life is 
more a matter of sport than work, especially see- 
ing that a native, from all the evidence we have 
got, seems so disinclined to work ? — I do not think, 
as far as I have seen it, that sport enters too largely 
into the native life. It is very desirable in these 
institutions that they should have all these sports, 
because the native is accustomed to a native life, 
naturally, having lived on the veldt, and if you 
shut him in a schoolroom for five hours a day and 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 421 

feed him well, he must have a good deal of exer- Mr.wmiam 
•cise, and pretty violent exercise, for his health and Bennie™B.A. 
suitable development. I have never seen sport — l9Q8 
•carried to excess in connection with any school, u y 
but I think it is a thing to be greatly encouraged 
for the sake of the students, in view of the fact 
that it is so different from their natural lives. 

2573. And especially seeing there is no oppor- 
tunity of their getting exercise in the way of 
work ? — They get their two hours or so of spade- 
work in the afternoon, but some afternoons are 
taken up with woodwork, and there is not much 
exercise in that. I think the games are quite 
desirable in the case of these native institutions. 
But, of course, having to prepare for the inspec- 
tions is a guarantee that they will not give too 
much time to work. 

2574. What is your opinion as to the ultimate 
outcome of all mission and State education for the 
advancement of the native races, as regards the 
chances in the future of retaining South Africa as 
a white man's country ? — That is a very large 
question, and it is a question one does not care to 
answer except very carefully. I have thought of 
the matter a good deal, and I think we are not 
endangering our position by treating the native 
justly and giving him what he considers himself 
justly entitled to in the way of education, because 
as long as he feels he is being justly treated and is 
reasonably comfortable his characteristic is to be 
content. He is not a revolutionist in his mental 
constitution unless vou aye him a grievance, and, 
as he has a very keen sense of justice, if you 
give him a grievance he may become the tool 
of agitators. I think treating them justly in this 
way. as has been the policy in the past, and 
giving them reasonable education, and making 
them pay for anything which is above the 
ordinary elementary education, you are dis- 
arming the agitators who might iDOSsibly make 
use of them. I think that has been a great factor 
in the maintenance of peace, because when they 



422 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr wiiiiam are educated they are far less liable to become the 
Benni ? ™B.A. tools of unscrupulous people wishing to make an 
Jul is 1908 a git a fri.()n. That appeared very clearly in the case 
' of rinderpest, where they objected to the inocula- 
tion of their cattle in some cases and there was a 
good deal of unrest. The leaven of the mission- 
aries and educated school Kafirs was sufficient 
then to prevent the ignorant ones from being 
stirred up to any overt act which might have been 
serious. 

2575. Do you think the civilisation which we 
bring to the natives has the effect of inculcating 
respect for the authority of the State?— Yes, I 
certainly think so, because he sees the authority at 
every turn of his life. 

2576. Including the white man and the white 
man's Government ? — His is a more intelligent 
submission to the Government, because he under- 
stands what it means and understands its powers 
better. As regards his attitude towards the white 
man, it makes him more discerning. If a white 
man is worthy of respect he will not lose the re- 
spect of the native, but if he is unworthy of re- 
spect the educated native, because of his education, 
discerns that and values him at his standing. 

2577. Mr. Murray.'] I understand that you 
taught for some time under Dr. Stewart at Love- 
dale ?— I did. 

2578. And you were in very close contact with 
him ? — Yes, as far as one of the younger members 
of the staff could be with a man who was so busy. 
I met him at a great many turns. 

2579. You think you were quite intimately 
connected with the working of the institute when 
he was at the head of it ? — As regards the outward 
working of it, yes, absolutely ; but I could not say 
anything about the inner counsels. 

2580. I have a statement here, taken from a 
pamphlet on the Lovedale education policy, which 
says : " Vernacular teaching in the lower classes, 
industrial training for all students, moral training, 
and a curriculum adapted to the present circum- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 423 

stances of the native people ; these were the aims Mr.wmiam 
of Dr. Stewart, carried out successfully at Love- Benni^B.A. 
dale, and with Government aid, for many years. — 1908 
In recent years the Education Department has liy 
drifted from this policy." When you were there 
was there vernacular teaching in the lower classes ? 
— I have tried to remember how much Kafir I 
heard in those classes in my early days, and 
except that I think once or twice a week Kafir 
pupils were put to Kafir reading — I am not sure 
they did not even do that in evening classes, but 
we will suppose something of that was done — I 
cannot remember that Kafir was kept as the sole 
medium of instruction at any time at Lovedale. 
I was taught at Lovedale. 

2581. Along with natives ? — I was taught along 
with natives. I think I am right in saying in the 
very early stages Kafir was probably used in 
explanation, but in those da)^s the cry was always 
for English. It was a point upon which Dr. Stewart 
and the members of the staff insisted very much that 
there should be English in all the classes, English 
in the playground and English in the dormitories ; 
and it used to be a punishable offence to speak 
Kafir in certain parts of the institution. Some of 
the teachers who were there at about, as far as I 
can remember, what would now be the Fourth or 
Fifth Standard did not know Kafir, as far as I 
know ; they certainly did not use it. 

258 i. In his evidence before the Inter-Colonial 
Native Affairs Commission, 1905-06. the Reverend 
James Stewart said. " As regards standards the 
First to the Fourth, the course of instruction might 
be simplified and strengthened." You are not able, 
possibly, to say what he meant by " simplified and 
strengthened " ? — This difference between the De- 
partment and Lovedale came in after I had left 
Lovedale, and I cannot say at all what Dr. Stewart 
meant by that, because after I took up this work 1 
saw little of him. 

2583. Can you suggest any way in which the 
standards from the First to the Fourth could be 



424 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William simplified iii native schools ? — In the lower 
Benm^B.A. standards — L, II. and III. — it would be a help to 
Jul i7i908 excnse the pupils part of the English reading- 
book. It would be a real relief if they were 
allowed to take half of the English book instead 
of the whole, as a set-off against taking Kafir as 
regards reading and spelling. In regard to the 
rest of the work, I do not think there is any need 
for simplification of the work ; the work is very 
simple if it is properly taught. Arithmetic, which 
is usually the chief stumbling block in an exami- 
nation, does not depend upon the language to any 
great extent, so the question would not enter into 
that. 

2584. Could you explain what he meant by 
" strengthening " ? — I am afraid I cannot. In re- 
gard to what you have read to me about " stan- 
dards adapted to the native requirements " 

2585. The last few words I have quoted were 
Dr. Stewart's actual words, and the other was in 
the paper ? — That would lead one to think that 
Lovedale had a separate curriculum for standards. 
As far as I know, the Government standards are 
all taken as they should be in Lovedale : as they 
were introduced for white schools so, as far as I 
can remember, were they taken at Lovedale : then, 
as now, no difference was made. 

2586. Is it not possible that " a curriculum 
adapted to the present circumstances of the 
native people " might refer to the time when we 
had what was class inspection, the inspector in- 
specting just on the subjects that the teacher told 
him he was teaching — in the way I was inspecting 
30 years ago ? — It might have that meaning, but 
the expression, " the Education Department has 
drifted from this polic}^ " gives the impression 
that it is something recent. That goes back a long 
way, and I do not think any educationist would 
recommend a reversion to the curriculum in the 
old days, when so much time was given to Latin 
and subjects of that kind. 

2587. In his evidence Dr. Stewart said, further, 
" There should be more Kafir, for the first two 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 425 

years at least, proceeding to English afterwards." Mr wiiiiam 
That is evidence given in 1905-06. Does this Benn^T^A. 
possibly indicate that in later years he came to the M — 190g 
conclusion it would be wise to teach more Kafir ? n y 
— I quite think he modified his attitude to a con- 
siderable extent, because I have the impression 
that in the early days he paid very little attention 
to Kafir, in his eagerness to have the pupils 
taught English ; but latterly he took a great 
interest in Kafir, and even wrote handbooks to 
Kafir grammar. That was comparatively recently. 

2588. When you were at Lovedale was industrial 
training given to all native students ? — They all 
had to do two hours' spade work in the afternoon, 
or if they were excused that it was because they 
had other work to do about the place in the way 
of sweeping and lamp cleaning and such like. It 
was an organised scheme — they had the work to 
do — and 1 will say it was done more thoroughly 
at Lovedale than in some of the other institutions. 

2589. But it was never recognised by Govern- 
ment as anything which could be inspected ? — I 
never heard of it as such, and am not aware it ever 
was inspected, except that the inspector saw this 
and might express his approval of it. 

2590. Would the fact that they were doing it 
make up for any shortfall in the ordinary work 
of the school ? — Certainly not ; it was necessary to 
their health, and a help to the ordinary work. 

2591. Then as regards moral training, was there 
distinct moral teaching given, or was it simply 
that a moral atmosphere was created ? — Every 
class began the day with half-an-hour or three- 
quarters of an hour Biblical instruction, and at 
noon all the work was stopped for the purpose of 
a service. There was no set syllabus on moral 
instruction, but there was a strong moral 
atmosphere in the plaee, and the teachers all 
realised their responsibility for the moral training 
of their pupils, and constantly brought it before 
them as opportunity arose, but that was not 
neglected in favour of book-learning. 



426 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr wiiiiam 2592. And with the greater pressure nowadays 

Benn^B.A. for results in the standards, do you think that 

Jul i7i908 ^ a f ^ as a ^ en( ^ enc y t° crush out moral training at 

' such an institution ? — I do not see why it should,. 

because the work might be peryaded by it, without 

a special lesson being taken on moral instruction 

at a certain period of the time table. It was rather 

an atmosphere which was created. 

2593. Can you recall, personally, if you gaye any 
set address to your class on such a thing as honesty 
or truthfulness, or did the training merely arise 
out of certain episodes that might happen in the 
class? — Apart from the Bible lesson, I gaye no 
address to my pupils except, as you say, where 
circumstances arose of a pupil being dishonest or 
anything of that kind. One would naturally in 
any school, under such circumstances, take the 
opportunity of showing them the wrong of it. 

2594. Are ycu able to suggest, then, any better 
curriculum adapted to the present circumstances 
of the natiye people than the one we have at 
present, except in so far as you seem to agree that 
if we could haye manual training all through it 
would be a good thing ? — No ; I haye no great 
modification beyond what we haye already spoken 
of, and I haye not thought of one for this reason,, 
that I feel quite sure it would not be acceptable to 
the people. It is now late to remodel our natiye 
system of education. 

2595. You were not aware that the Education 
Department has changed its policy in regard to* 
the working of such an institution as Lovedale ? — 
Do you mean to institutions as a whole ? 

2596. Yes ? — I do not think the policy of the 
Department has changed at all in regard to these 
institutions. The policy has been the same, but a 
great change was introduced after the new pupil 
teachers' system was introduced and put into 
working order, to put the training course on a 
proper footing instead of having it a kind of 
excrescence. It was a matter of organization, but 
the policy has been the same as far as I know. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 427 

2597. Has the system of inspection changed Mr.wuiiam 

-, ^ -it 1 G-ovan 

much since you were a teacher and your classes Bennie, b.a. 
inspected ? — It has to some extent. There is not, _ . — 1ft _ 

-£ i n i i July 18,1908. 

as far as my own branch is concerned, so much 
heavy written work as there was. Certain sub- 
jects, like history and geography, are habitually 
treated as class subjects. In those days it was a 
great examination, where we were kept writing 
the whole time, and the only time we came before 
the inspector was in regard to reading. 

2598. Have you inspected any native institu- 
tions in the Colony ? — Yes. Healcltown. 

2599. Were you satisfied with the training given 
there ? — On the whole it was very good, and it has 
turned out some very good teachers under the 
present system. 

2600. Speaking generally of institutions, do you 
think the type of teacher being turned out to-day 
is equal to that turned out fifteen years ago ? — He 
is far better qualified professionally, and I think 
that the average in other respects is much about 
the same ; that is to say, you get some who do 
themselves credit and others who do not. In this 
connection I would like to draw the attention of 
the Committee to this fact : certain men are 
pointed out to us as the product of the old system, 
and are contrasted with our youths going out now, 
but those men were once raw, and it is not fair to 
compare them — who are the successes of that 
system, the failures having drifted away into other 
employment — with young men going out fresh 
from their training now and whose future we do 
not know. Some may be every bit as good and 
others of them may not. 

2601. Evidence has been given that the cram- 
ming which takes place owing to the emphasis 
laid upon standard work is having a deleterious 
effect upon the character of pupils and also of the 
teachers trained. Have you noticed anything in 
this connection ? — If a school admits it is cram- 
ming its pupils then I think it is quite likely it 
will have a deleterious effect, but cramming is not 



428 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. wniiam essential, nor is it desirable, and the work can be 
Beimi > e™B.A. done without cramming — if it is at once put on a 

Jul i7i908 soun( ^ Das i s - 

2602. You said in your evidence that a larger 

percentage of pupils in native schools fail at ex- 
amination than is the case in European schools. 
Now of course the teacher wishes as many pupils 
to pass as possible. Does not that necessarily lead 
to cramming, at all events ? — I take it that the 
good teacher will take his pupils on as far as he can ; 
he will take his class on as far as the class can go 
soundly ; and if a pupil is not fit — in the ordinary 
course of things — I do not think the teacher, as such , 
should worry himself if such pupil fails, and I do 
not think he should seek to stuff that pupil in 
order to get him through merely for the sake of the 
percentage of passes. 

2603. Can you give me the percentage, roughly, 
of the number of pupils in European schools you 
expect to pass a higher standard every year, say 
in a good school ? — I can give you the figures for 
my own circuit for the year ending 30th Septem- 
ber, 1907- I have them classified by classes of 
schools — public schools of first, second and third 
class, private farm, and poor. The percentage of 
passes was as follows ■ In first-class public schools, 
92*1 ; second-class public schools, 78*8 ; third-class 
public school, 78*8 again ; private farm schools — 
which is abnormally iow, I must say, owing to cer-* 
tain special circumstances — 62*8 ; poor schools, 78 - 6 ; 
mission schools, 64'0. The mission schools are 
above the private farm schools. Still, you may 
take it 78 per cent, obtains in three classes of 
schools. You may leave out the first-class school, 
because there the class of children is rather 
different. The native is not very much below 
that. 

2604. In the work of the native teacher does the 
Department recognize that a school may be satis- 
factory although a smaller percentage go up to 
a higher standard than in a European school ? — 
As an inspector, I always realize that, and I 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 429 

always represent so to the Department if it should Mr.wmiami 
come up in connection with the good service Beimie™ b.a. 
allowance — for example, that the" work in a M ^ 190g 
coloured school is to some extent more difficult 
for the teacher by virtue of the language matter — 
and I think the Department has recognized that. 

2605. You, as an inspector, do not insist on their 
making bricks without straw at native schools ? — 
Certainly not. I think it would be very foolish if 
anyone expected the native school, with the 
language difficulty, to worK up to the level of a 
white school. 

2606. There seems to be a fair consensus of 
opinion that Kafir should be recognised in native 
schools up to Standard III. Do you think where 
inspectors do not know Kafir, assistance might be 
got from native inspectors, and the language diffi- 
culty got over in that way ? — In actual working it 
would be a little difficult for the white inspector 
to take the native inspector about with him, as 
you can understand, in practical working. As a 
matter of practice Kafir reading is so easy that, 
with a little trouble, an inspector could easily 
qualify himself to judge as to the. reading, and for 
the dictation he might enlist the services of the 
teacher or mark it himself. 

2607. Have you during the last few years pos- 
sibly listened to any Kafir preachers ? — It is some 
time since I did. I have often heard them in the 
past. 

2608. You have no means of comparing their 
style and knowledge of Kafir now with their style 
and knowledge in the past ? — No, but as far as I 
could witness the Kafir that was spoken at the 
Convention, for example, was most of it very 
good. My remarks with regard to the decay of 
Kafir had reference to my present circuit, where 
most of the Kafirs are in locations and on farms. 

2609. You say the Kafir spoken at the Conven- 
tion Avas very good, but most of the men at the 
Convention were middle-aged man, were they not ? 
— Yes, and elderly as well. 



430 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr William 2610. So you have not had the opportunity of 
Benni^ a B.A. comparing the younger generation ? — No, not with 

2611. When you make an informal visit to a 
native school, do you ever spend any time in 
giving the teacher hints in teaching subjects in 
which you have found the teaching weak? — 
Certainly. It is part of my duty. I have found 
it very helpful to sit and watch the work for 
an hour or more, and then send the children out 
and go over with the teacher the work he had 
been doing and the methods he was employing. 
I have sometimes taken a class for the teacher, 
and shown him how such a subject ought to be 
dealt with. 

2612. You think every inspector ought to under- 
stand that that is part of his duty ? — I think they 
do understand it, and they ought to if they 
do not. 

2613. You do not happen to have a copy of the 
Germonica catechism to which you referred ? — I 
am afraid the onty one I had I lent to some one, 
and it has not been returned. 

2614. In connection with the question of whether 
missionaries should have advisory committees, you 
said the missionary pays the teacher and con- 
sequently he should appoint him. Are you not 
desirous of qualifying that statement somewhat, 
because as a matter of fact in very few schools, 
so far as our evidence goes, at present does the 
missionary pay the teacher ? — I think you have 
misunderstood the connection of that. I was 
speaking of the missionary as an employer of the 
teacher, and his insisting, as such, in the teacher 
teaching Kafir. I did not mean that he found the 
money, but that he was in the position of the 
employer. 

2615. You said at Healdtown, for instance, you 
have inspected it and found the work very satis- 
factory. In a big institution like that do you 
think there is anything to be gained by class 
inspection, or by class inspection one year and 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 431 

standard inspection a second year ? — Provided that Mr - wiiiiam 
the teachers have the liberty, which they have, of Bennie™B.A. 
bringing to the inspector's notice any case of hard- — 
ship. I do not know that very much would be 
gained by class inspection, and there is no doubt 
in a well-organized school — as Healdfcown is — the 
examination in detail by an outside man may be 
of real help, although the school is well organized, 
to some one who is working in the same place all 
the year round. My meaning is that it has its 
uses even in a well- organized school. 

2616. In the Territories do you find much over- 
lapping of schools — that is, two schools being in an 
area where one was sufficient, owing to different 
denominations opening schools close together ? — It 
was our business to see that that did not occur ; 
that is to say. applications were often made for 
grants where we could not allow them, because 
one would not allow that overlapping. There was 
in those days — and I daresay may be still — a great 
deal of competition for grants between denomina- 
tions, but we have made it our business to stop 
such overlapping. 

2617. During the time you were at Lovedale was 
any attempt made to have the work on the farm 
property of Lovedale done by students ? — They 
never attempted, as far as I know, to do it entirely 
by means of students. 

2618. Was some of the work done by students ? 
I am referring especially to the farm property ? — 
It was the practice, when the hoeing season came 
on, that the afternoon spadework companies went 
out to hoe. and the girls very often went too, and 
also when the reaping season came round they 
spent their afternoons there instead of working 
about the place ; and I have known even in the 
wheat season — if there has been a great crop of 
wheat — they have been turned into the wheat 
fields. The matter of hoeing and reaping mealies 
was always recognised as part of the w r ork of the 
boys and girls, done in the afternoons and not in 
the forenoon. 



432 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 

Mr William 2619. Are you aware there is a considerable 

Benm^B.A. objection on the part of the students to do this 

Jul iT 1908 wor ^ '- They say they require all their time for 

' their books ? — I think they used rather to enjoy it 

in the old days. I never heard any complaint on 

that score in the old days, but the attitude of the 

students may possibly have changed. 

2620. With the interest you take in Lovedale, 
you never considered the matter whether at such 
an institution the farm might become an educa- 
tional adjunct to the institute ? — You mean for 
the purpose of agricultural training ? 

2621. Yes. By agricultural training I do not 
mean theoretical agricultural training, but practi- 
cal work ? — They did once have agricultural 
apprentices. They managed to get tw~o or three 
to come, but when the apprentices found their 
work was really to do farm work, although it was 
intended to help to teach them to farm on sound 
lines, they soon tired of it and went away. With 
regard to the bulk of the pupils the difficulty 
arose of the class hours in the morning. 

2622. It has been suggested to me that in some 
districts where there are too many schools, schools 
might be centralized if a board was appointed 
consisting of a missionary interested in each 
school, the headman of each location, and one man 
chosen by the parents connected with each school. 
Do you think that that would be a practicable scheme 
in any district you know ? — There may be one or 
two localities where that could be carried out 
without increasing too much the distances the 
young children have to travel, but that is a thing 
one must consider — that you cannot compel any 
child to walk a very long distance. At present 
many schools are three miles away. 

2623. It has been suggested that in winter the 
school should begin at 7 a.m. and in summer at 
6.30, and to close earlier accordingly, so that the 
children could help their parents in the latter part 
of the day. Do you think that is feasible ? — I 
think the children are as much needed in the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 433 

early morning ; in fact, that is often given as the Mr.wniiam 
reason for their coming late. I have gone to a Benn^B.A 
school at 9 o'clock and found a very small per- — 
centage of the children there. July 18, 1908 ' 

2624. Chairman.'] Could you tell us why you 
left the Transkei and came further west ? — I was 
told to come. 

2625. Was it in the nature of promotion ? — Yes ; 
it was very considerable promotion. 

2626. You have a thorough knowledge of Kafir, 
have you not ? — I learned Kafir as I grew up, and 
I know sufficient to examine on it in the Univer- 
sity. I would not like to say my knowledge is 
extremely good. 

2627. A number of the inspectors in the Transkei 
do not know Kafir ? — I cannot say. 

2628. Have you anything more to put before the 
Committee? — There was just one point which 
arises from what has been said in some of the 
papers in discussing this matter of the vernacular. 
It has been said that it has a prejudicial 
effect upon the native child when he is taught 
in the English language — that it stunts his 
develox3ment or something to that effect. 1 
merely wish to emphasise what I said in my 
previous evidence, that if English is taught in the 
early stages not only is there no strain upon the 
child and upon his development but speaking from 
experience of those I have had to do with, it has a 
stimulating effect on the child if he learns the 
language in the natural course of things early in 
life, because he becomes acquainted then with a 
large number of ideas outside of the kraal life 
which Jie would not otherwise have access to. If 
English is only to be used during the English 
lesson, seeing that a child in the Territories will 
hear little or no English outside of school, its 
acquirement of the language will be slow ; and I 
think it is very necessary that teachers should use 
English as freely as possible in the ordinary school 
work, provided that the children are not allowed 
to pass over anything without understanding it. 

[A. 1—08.] NatiTe Education. EB 



434 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. William Then there is another point, and that is it has been 

Benn^t b.a. suggested — I think it was at the Convention— that 

. — they should pass their standards in Kafir, and 

' some who did not go that length would have them 

pass their standards up to Standard III. in Kafir. 

I should like to record my opinion that we tried 

passing them in Standard III. in Kafir. 

2629. When was that ? — It was done when [ was 
a teacher, and it was done in the first year of my 
work; but it was found that, at whatever standard 
you discontinued to give them the option of pass- 
ing in Kafir, the work of the next standard 
suffered very greatly ; that is to say, if a pupil 
failed in English dictation he was given a test in 
Kafir dictation, and if he failed in English reading 
he was given a test in Kafir reading, and when it 
came to Standard IY. pupils had slipped through 
who were not really fit to do Standard IY. work, 
and we got the cases of those suffering from strain 
which have been referred to — that is, they were in 
a standard they were not fit for, and the work had 
a disheartening effect to them and to their 
teachers. 

2630. You believe in having English and Kafir 
in the early standards ? — Yes. 

2631. Would you have Kafir throughout? — I 
think when they have got to Standard III. English 
is sufficient. There is a tendency for a teacher 
who is naturally slack to think his pupil may get 
through by the back door, and neglect the more 
difficult in favour of the easier, but if both 
languages were required for a pass that would 
prevent it. 

2632. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you think any steps 
should be taken to counteract the impression, if it 
does exist, that teachers are not allowed to use 
Kafir for purposes of explanation in the lower 
standards ? — One would like first to find out the 
fact really was so, and if it were I suppose they 
could be informed of the true position by circular. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 435 

Monday, 20th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. Fremantle (Chairman) 



Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 

Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Booy. 



July 20, 1908. 



Mr. John Ten go Jabavu, examined. 

2633. Chairman.'] What is your position ? — I am Johl f£en 
an editor. jabavu. 

2634. And have been for how long ? — Since 1884. 

2635. You were educated at Lovedale ? — Partly. 

2636. And for the rest ? — I was originally 
educated at Healdtown, where I was trained in 
the normal course. I w^as a teacher for five years 
in a mission school at Somerset East, and from 
there I was appointed edit or of' " Isigidimi," a 
native newspaper at Lovedale. I was on that for 
three years. From there I went to King William's 
Town to edit the " Imvo" 

2637. You have a son who is highly educated, 
have you not ? — He is being educated in London. 

2638. What course is he taking there ? — I think 
he is sitting just now for the intermediate B.A. 

2639. He has passed trie matriculation ? — Yes, he 
has passed the London matriculation. 

2640. Where is he sitting ? — He is in the London 
University. 

2641. Why did he go to London ? — Because he 
could not be admitted into the local colleges. An 
attempt was made to get him to stay as a private 
student at the Dale College, and afterwards at the 
South African College, but the rules of the colleges 
would not allow it. 

2642. So you found in your own experience that 
there is no provision for people wishing to go on ? — 
Absolutely none. 

2643. Do you think that is a satisfactory state of 
things ? — No ; it does not appeal to me. 



436 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

johnTen o 2644. It involves additional expense ? — "Great 
' °jrbavu. g ° expense, which should not be necessary. 
Jul 20 1908 2645. "Why could you not send him to Lovedale 
' or one of the other institutions ? — He was at Love- 
dale and passed his school higher there, and there 
was no higher class in that year. They only 
organized higher courses then when there were 
students for the theological course. 

2646. You think this want will be met by the- 
Inter- State College ? — Absolutely. 

2647. Do you think it would be met by the 
Victoria Memorial College ? — That I do not under- 
stand ; it is still in a nebulous state. 

2648. Do you think there is room for two col- 
leges? — Absolutely not. 

2649. And you feel that the Inter-State College 
will be a satisfactory institution ? — I think so. 

2650. You do not think there is any danger of 
its becoming too denominational? — No. With 
the hostels it should not be so. 

2651. What openings in the world do you think 
there will be for young men who have been 
through that course ? — There is plenty of scope 
amongst their own people. 

2652. In what capacities ? — As teachers and with 
the Councils now being started there will be 
clerical and other positions open to natives. 

2653. Are there any other positions you think 
they should be trained for ? — Apart from the 
Civil Service ? 

2654. Yes •? — I should say they should be trained 
for agriculture. 

2655. Would you have them take a University 
course for the sake of agriculture ? — It seems to 
me certain subjects lend themselves to such a 
training, that is if the University were to broaden 
its curriculum. 

2656. Do you think there would be room for 
native professional men — doctors and lawyers and 
so forth ? — There would be room if they could be 
so trained, especially in such a State as Basuto- 
land, which is an absolutely native State. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 437 

2657. Do you think it would be an advantage to Mr. 
liave natives doing this work ? — I should say so. Jo jabJvu g ° 

2658. In what way ? — They understand their T , — nn , 

, , , n , J ' J July 20, 1908 

people thoroughly. 

2659. Do you think having native doctors would 
tend to expedite the advance of the people in the 
way of witchcraft and so forth ? — Undoubtedly. 

2660. Therefore you think the whole under- 
taking is an important and a satisfactory one ? — 
I think so. 

2661. Have you any criticisms to make on it ? — 
On the Inter- State College ? 

2662. Yes ? — No ; I am quite satisfied with the 
way things are going. 

2663. Do you think that is the general opinion 
of the natives ? — The bulk, yes. 

2664. Are you familiar with the working of the 
District Council s}"stem in the Transkei ? — Not 
closely, but generally. I am outside of the area 
of the Council. 

2665. Do you think it would be a good thing 
from the point of view of education to have a 
Council on this side of the Kei ? — I have always 
supported it. 

2666. Do you think the people would be pre- 
pared to pay an educational rate ? — I think so. It 
is only a few in the Colony who are not doing it. 

2667. There are a good many districts in the 
Transkei, are there not, where there are no District 
Councils ? — Very few now except in Pondoland. 

2668. You think the system could be introduced 
on this side of the Kei without much difficulty ? — 
I have always advocated it in the paper. 

2669. You think it could be introduced without 
much difficulty ? — I think so. 

2670. Do you think the present system of educa- 
tion is satisfactory for native children, as far as 
the teaching of Kafir is concerned ? — I consider it 
very faulty. 

2671. In what way do you think it is faulty ? — 
The child is not trained in its own language at the 
very beginning. 



438 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

j h M t «• 2672. Yon think that has a bad result on a 
jrbavu g0 child ? — As far as I have observed its effects, it is 
r\ ™ ,Lo verv bad — with mv own children, for instance. 

July 20, 1908. n ?, 7 o T " i i i • 

?jbl6. In your own case, were you educated in 
your own language ? — Yes. That was the mission- 
ary college. They educated us in our own 
language, and when we knew that and were able 
te read, we were promoted to the learning of 
English. 

2674. Was this at Healdtown ?— Yes. 

2675. Do you remember at about what standard 
English became the medium ? — In my days there 
were no standards. 

2676. Could you say how many years you had 
been at school before English became the medium ? 
— I do not remember the date exactly. 

2677. What policy do you think ought to be 
adopted in this matter ? — I should prefer revert- 
ing to the missionary policy — that is of getting 
the children qualified in their own language and 
afterwards introduced into English. 

2678. Would you have English taught from the 
first ? — JN ot having seen that done. I would not be 
absolutely in favour of it. I would start it some- 
where above the Third Standard. 

2679. Would you have English the medium of 
education in the higher standards, or Kafir ? — 
I do not exactly understand the meaning of that. 

2680. Would you have the general subjects, like 
arithmetic, taught through the medium of English 
in the higher standards or would you have them 
taught through Kafir ? — I have been a teacher 
myself, and have never been tied to any particular 
course. 

2681. You have never been tied to any particu- 
lar language ? — No. When 1 found the native 
pupils did not understand the English I used 
Kafir to explain my point, where necessary, but 
as a rule we used English. 

2682. You think that is satisfactory ?— The 
results, I think, have been satisfactory. 



John Tengo 
Jabaru. 

July 20, 1908 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 439 

2683. So you think it would be satisfactory if m 
the Department insisted on a thorough knowledge °jabavu 
of Kafir and introducing English as soon as it was 
practicable, and allowing the teachers to give ex- 
planations in either language ? — I should say so. 

2684. Do you think it is possible for inspectors 
to inspect the work of Kafir teaching when they 
do not know Kafir themselves ? — No, they could 
not do it. 

2685. Do you not think it is possible to do it by 
means of interpreters ? — I do not think so. 

2686. Do you think the curriculum of subjects 
taught in the schools is satisfactory? — I do not 
think so. 

2687. What do you think is wrong ? — It is too 
cut and dried to my mind. 

2688. In fact you do not like the standard 
system ? — Not the present standard system. It is 
too limited. 

2689. It has been put to us that the Kafir child 
is handicapped because English is a foreign lan- 
guage to him, acd because he has not the same 
home influence as a European child — not as a rule 
— and that the standards are devised for European 
children and therefore are too much for the Kafir 
child and result in cramming ? — I think there is a 
good deal of truth in that. 

2690. How do you think that could be avoided ? 
— It seems to me that you would have to trust the 
man on the spot, and leave him a free hand. 

2691. You would leave the teacher a free hand ? 
— Yes. and have a local committee, and that the 
inspector should come in and just examine the 
work presented to him. That was the method in 
our early education, and it worked well. 

2692. You speak of the local committee. Is 
there always a local committee ? — Of course I had 
more in my mind's eye the missionary institutions. 

2693. Do they have local committees? — They 
have their education boards. 

2694. Schools do not always have local com- 
mittees ? — No. The missionary superintendent at 
present is the sole authority. 



440 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

johnTen o 2695. You think he should have a freer hand 
°jrbavu. g ° than now ? — Perhaps not the missionary superin- 
jui 20 1908 dent. Some authority is required for the public 
u y ' schools. 

2696. You mean some board ? — Yes. 

2697. Do you think it would be met if you had 
the Council system and the Council appointed a 
committee ? — I should say that would meet it. 

2698. Then do you think committees appointed 
by District Councils would be able to decide what 
the proper curriculum would be ? — I think the 
District Council itself would fix matters to suit 
the convience of their district. 

2699. Would you have them fix the curriculum 
subject to the approval of the Education Depart- 
ment or not ? — Yes, that is subject to the approval 
of the Department — that is, if the Education De- 
partment were more elastic than it is. As far as 
I can see at present it does not allow much elasti- 
city, to my mind. 

2700. Do you think the natives, as a whole, 
would be satisfied to have a special curriculum for 
themselves ? — I should say so. That is especially 
in the lower, and probably in the upper, work, to 
suit their circumstances 

2701. Do you think there really is more cram- 
ming, in native schools than in European schools ? — 
I do not know much about European schools, but 
at present in native schools there is a good deal of 
cramming. 

2702. Do you think that is due to the children 
or the teacher or the missionary or the system, or 
what?— I should think the system is more to 
blame for that. 

2703. Do you think enough attention is paid in 
the schools to moral and religious teaching ? — I do 
not think enough is being done in that regard j ust 
now. 

2704. What is the result of that ?— The teachers 
turned out are themselves not as satisfactory as 
they might be, to my mind. 

2705. I believe the subject is not inspected in 
the schools ? — No ; it is not inspected. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 441 

2706. Do you think it would be possible for the Mr- 
subject to be inspected ? — That seems rather to be ^j^bJvuf 
beyond my depth. Jul — l90g 

2707. Do you think it is desirable that elemen- u y 
tary hygiene should be taught in the schools ? — 
Absolutely. 

2708. You think that that need is felt by the 
natives ? — Yery strongly felt. 

2709. You are not now sufficiently in touch with 
the actual working of the schools to be able to 
express an opinion as to how that should be done ? 
— Not now. I think if books were introduced 
dealing with these matters, that is the only way 
by which it could be taught. 

2710. Do you think there are people who could 
write these text-books in the native language ? — 
Oh, yes. Many of the missionaries are able to do 
that — not many but some. 

2711. With regard to manual training, we under- 
stand that all the girls are taught needlework, 
but that very little is done for the boys in most of 
the schools ? — The needlework is of a very unsatis- 
factory kind. They are taught fancy little things, 
and do not do real needlework. . 

2712. Is the needlework taught at the schools 
not found to be useful afterwards ? — Like with 
woodwork, I do not think it is with a view of 
enabling the pupils to use it in after life, but to 
give them some technical training, the use of 
which is not apparent in after life. 

2713. You mean the woodwork training is also 
not practical enough ? — Yes. 

2714. What do you recollect in your education ? 
Do you recollect taking any manual training ? — 
Only gardening in our case. At Healdtown they 
had no workshops. 

, 2715. You feel it would be desirable to have 
more manual training in the schools ? — I should 
say so, if it can be introduced. 

2716. You are aware, as a rule, manual training 
is very expensive ? — I am only speaking of gar- 
dening. 



442 MINUTES or EVIDENCE taken before the 

M £ 2717. Gardening means you must have the 

j^bavu.^ ground first of all ? — Yes. 
Jul 2o~ loos 2^18. Many schools, I believe, have not got suit- 
" able ground for that ? — I think there is plenty of 
ground near the schools. 

2719. Do you think training in gardening is 
what is wanted ? — I think it is very helpful. I am 
sorry I had not more of it myself. We regarded it 
more as a task than anything in our younger days. 

2720. Do you not think the young pupil would 
take the same view now ? — I think that if it had 
been properly explained to us that it was part of 
our education, and would be helpful, we should 
not have taken that view. We were simply driven 
to it, and taught more as a task than any thing- 
else. We thought if we could get out of it it was 
better for us. 

2721. Do you think a training in some of the 
simple arts of building would be a good thing ? — 
If it could be done. 

2722. But you specially feel that gardening and 
agriculture are the best of all ? — I should say so, 
and some elementary woodwork — in the construc- 
tion of houses and cottages. 

2723. Do you think the present provision for the 
training of teachers is satisfactory ? — No ; I think 
it is faulty. 

2724. In what way ? — There seems to me to be 
something radically wrong in the course itself. 

2725. Do you find the results are not what they 
ought to be ? — They are far from satisfactory. 

2726. What is wrong in the results ? — The 
teachers, to my mind, are not equal in the work 
they have to do. They are inferior to the 
teachers who were produced under the old system. 

2727. Do you mean mentally or morally in- 
ferior ? — On the whole both the moral and mental 
qualifications leave a great deal to be desired. 

2728. Are you not thinking of the best men 
under the old system, and comparing them with 
the ordinary men under the present system ? — 
Taking them as a whole. 



July 20. 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 443 

2729. Do you think the men under the new Mr. 
system can fairly be accused of having rather a ' To jabavu ? ° 
parrotlike knowledge of their subjects? — That is 
what some of us are afraid of. 

2730. But is that your experience? — I should 
say so, certainly. 

2731. Does that apply to all the institutions, or 
any particular institutions ? — It seems to my mind 
to be general. They are just about the same level. 

2732. To what do you attribute that ?— I think 
there must be something wrong in the system 
itself — in the syllabus and the way it is got up ? 

2732a. Do you think that the system of inspecting 
schools, whereby the inspector has to decide in 
the case of each child which class he is to be put 
in, is a good system ? — I think it is thoroughly 
bad. 

2733. What system would you prefer ? — The 
system obtaining in our day. when the inspector 
simply dropped in and inspected us in the work 
we were doing. 

2734. He did not decide which class you should 
go in P-^-No. He simply left that to the masters. 
He said how we did in our work. 

2735. Do you think that was a genuine system 
of inspection, or do you think it was merely a 
formality ? — I think it was the most genuine. The 
formality seems to me to be more in the present 
system, because a child may be excited by seeing 
the inspector and lose a considerable number of 
marks, and thereby be simply put back for a 
whole year, and he becomes very dull in the work 
of the class. 

2736. Do you think this is the general opinion 
of teachers in the native schools ? — I think they 
also feel it. As a matter of fact, if I were a teacher, 
I think I should rather revolt, and try some other 
way. It would cripple me very much in my work. 

2737. In your recollection, do you think the 
visits of the inspectors, when they arrived and 
carried out this class inspection, were looked for- 
ward to by the teachers ?— With great interest. 



444 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. 2738. Do you think that is so now ? — It. does not 

Jo j&bIvu go seem to be so. The children rather fear the inspec- 
— tor coming, because it is on the results of his work 
' that the promotion on the year's work depends. 

2739. In fact it is an examination now for each 
child, and formerly it was not ? — They did carry 
on an examination, but then the progress of the 
child did not depend on that examination. 

2740. Did they then ask questions of each child 
in each subject ? — Yes, they asked their questions, 
and they stated generally whether the class did 
satisfactorily or badly, and advised the teacher 
accordingly as to what he should do. 

2741. You have just said that the teachers that 
have been turned out under the new system are 
somewhat mechanical and unsatisfactory. Do you 
think it would be safe to allow such teachers to 
decide in which classes the children were to be ? — 
I think that does not affect their own qualifica- 
tions, it is the qualification of the child. 

2742. Do you think teachers who are rather 
mechanical would be fit to say in which class a 
child should be ? — They are not so blind as not to 
know a child knows a certain thing and is qualified 
and may be promoted. 

2743. Do you think the Education Department 
is sufficiently in touch w^ith the circumstances of 
native education ? — From the experience I have 
had of it, it does not appear to be so. 

2744. But the Department has its inspectors in 
all parts of the country, and receives constant re- 
ports. Ought it not to be in thorough touch with 
the circumstances ? — It seems to me these inspec- 
tors are more the bane of native education than 
anything else. They have all sorts of inspectors 
now — needlework, music, and I know what not- 
dropping into the school almost every day, and I 
think that has a bad effect on the work of the 
school ; at all events, I think it would have that 
effect if I were still a teacher. 

2745. It is sometimes suggested it might be well 
to have some officer devoting special attention to 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 445 

native education, and reporting either to the Mr. 
Superintendent- General of Education or to the °jabJvu ff ° 
Minister. Do you think that would be a good T , ~ _ 

j_ • n a JXi 1 o July 20, 1908. 

suggestion ? — An officer here . J 

2746. No ; in the east ? — That is, you would 
have a sort of department there ? 

2747. Either a branch of the Department or you 
might have an inspector devoting himself ex- 
clusively to native education ? — It would depend 
on what sort of a man you had. You might have 
good results with a sort of statesman, and if you 
had a crotchety man the education might suffer. 

2748. That tends to happen in almost all sys- 
tems, does it not ? Do you think any advantage 
would be gained by sending a commission or 
commissioner round to visit the Territories in the 
different parts, to see what the position was ? — 
I am not quite satisfied as to- what would be the 
results of such a commission, because the people 
have various ideas. 

2749. You think it might perhaps represent 
individual opinions ? — It seems to me that might 
be the effect. 

2750. That also applies to almost every form of 
investigation, does it not ?— I think there is a great 
deal in that. 

2751. Have you any suggestions as to what 
should be done in order to arrive at a knowledge 
of the facts ? Do you think the Department is not 
sufficiently in touch with the circumstances ? Do 
you think a commission might be too one-sided ? 
What, then, should the Government do to get into 
touch with this important subject ? — I do not see 
that much can be secured except by strengthening 
the local authority — the men on the spot — creating 
an organization there to work at the question 
systematically and constantly. 

2752. What do you mean by an organization ? — 
I prefer these councils. 

2753. You think that that would really be the 
wisest way of going to work ? — Better results might 
be secured from a system of that kind, I think, 
than from anything else. 



446 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

jcim M Ten o 2754 ' ^ r ' Wm P ' Schreiner '~\ Would you explain 

JabaS 9 the inspection to which you yourself were sub- 

jui 20" 1908 J ectec l when you were a pupil? — I had four 

' inspectors. Dr. Dale himself was the first I saw ; 

then Mr. O'Grath ; then Inspector Clarke ; and 

then Inspector Healy, who was the last. 

2755. At what place were these inspections ? — At 
Healdtown. 

2756. All at Healdtown ? — One inspection was at 
Lovedale. 

2757. Three at Healdtown and one at Lovedale ? 
— Yes. 

2758. How were those inspections conducted ? — 
They simply ascertained from our teacher what 
work we had been doing, and proceeded to put 
questions to us on the work we had been doing. 

2759. In that day was there not a tendency in 
schools which were, perhaps, not very well con- 
ducted to scamp the work a little ? — Well, the 
inspector was a check, and saw the weak points. 

2760. You think he should inspect each child's 
standard then, in order to see whether the child 
really has got a knowledge of the work ? — He did 
that. 

2761. You think that is good ? — I think so. 

2762. You do not think the native child could 
be properly tested without something of that sort 
— as to his advance in education ? Some such test 
by the inspector would be necessary to see if the 
individual child had really got the knowledge he 
should have from studying those subjects ? — I 
think that is useful. 

2763. It is essential ? — I should say so. 

2764. In point of fact, are the native schools 
inspected more frequently then the European 
schools ? — I think just as frequently. 

2765. Or more frequently, or less ? — Just as 
frequently. 

2766. You spoke of dropping into the schools 
almost every clay. Is not that a little widely put ? 
— It may be, but it was more to convey the idea 
of" constant inspection in one year. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 447 

2767. How often in the course of a year do you j h ^£ 
think an inspector drops into a Government °jabavuf° 
school ? — There is the general inspector and then Jul — 1908 
these experts, who are also inspectors. 

2768. How often does that mean the class has 
the disturbance of an inspection ? — I should think 
every quarter. 

2769. Do you think the European schools get as 
much inspection as that? — I should say these 
inspectors go into all the schools. 

2770. Quarterly ? — Probably twice a quarter, I 
should say. 

2771. Would you have a different system of in- 
spection established for native schools from the 
inspection for European schools? — I think they 
are just now over-inspected. 

2772. European as well ? — I should say so. 

2773. Your criticism is that the whole system of 
inspection — both for Europeans and natives — is 
too searching — too frequent ? — I should say so. 
I may say I speak also from my experience as a 
teacher for some eight years, and I feel I should 
not like these constant inspections. 

2774. You were under an older regime ? — Yes. 

2775. I suppose one may fairly say you represent 
the work, and take the experience of the time, of 
Dr. Dale ? — Yes, that is so, and comparing that 
time with the present — of course I am still 
interested in education inasmuch as I am educa- 
ting my own children now — and looking at the 
present results, they are very desponding and 
discouraging, with all the inspecting. 

2776. If we contrast the time before 1892 with 
the time since, you, as full of zeal for native 
education as you are, would surely say there is a 
much better result in regard to native education 
than in the old days ? — Certainly not. The results, 
to my mind, are not satisfactory. I take the 
abilities of my children at their age. 

2777. Do you mean your children, or children 
generally ? — Native children to-day are just 
specimens of the rest. I rind the results are more 
desponding than in my time. 



448 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 



Mr. 



2778. When you were a boy or when you were 
°jS>avu5° a teacher ? — I went out as a teacher when I was 16 r 

Jul 20 1908 an( ^ ■*■ P asse( ^ m y teacher's certificate then. 

2779. Yery many more children are brought 
under education under this system ? — It may be 
the ordinary growth of education. 

2780. A very much higher percentage of native 
children are attending school now than were 
attending when you were a boy ? — Of course there 
would be natural growth. 

2781. You do not think that is to be attributed 
much to the working of the system since 1892 ? — 
No. 

2782. If you saw a very marked growth in the 
numbers of pupils attending school, as compared 
with the old system, how would you account for 
it ? — The growth in intelligence. I compel all my 
children to be at school, knowing myself I have 
been educated. 

2783. Surely the growth would not be sudden ? 
— I think it is a gradual growth. 

2784. You think there is too much inspection, 
but you do not suggest no inspection ? — No. 

2785. We sometimes hear evidence given almost 
for no inspection ? — I do not believe in that ; I 
believe in some inspection. 

2/86. By suitable inspectors, especially inspectors 
. understanding both languages ? — Yes. 

2787. If the inspectors understood both lan- 
guages, so as to be able to be in real touch with 
the class, much of your objection to the inspection 
— even frequent inspection — would vanish ? — I do 
not think so. I would still be against too frequent 
inspection. 

2788. As tending to upset the work of the class ? 
I should say so. 

2789. You say, however, that the teachers are 
somewhat mechanical, speaking of native 
teachers ? — Yes. 

2790. You rather draw a criticism of the 
teachers as a class. Many of them are 
mechanical ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION, 449 

2791. Do you think there is a higher proportion Mr. 
of what you might call mechanical teaching than Jo ja^Jvu. go 
with European teachers ? — I do not know the T , — 

tt, , * n July 20, 1908. 

European teachers. 

2792. That is a vocation, I suppose, which tends 
to become mechanical unless you are very fond of 
it ? — It becomes mechanical unless one's education 
has been broadened. You want a broader basis 
for the training of the teacher than under the 
present system. 

2793. Have you any practical suggestions as to 
what should be done in the training of teachers to 
reduce the number of mechanical teachers — to 
inspire them with more initiative and zeal ? 
Have you any practical suggestions as to what 
could be done in the training schools ? — First of 
all I would do away with the system of having 
all the institutions doing normal work. It seems 
to me an impossibility, because the normal is of a 
special kind, and can only be done at certain 
centres. Now the Department insists that all the 
institutions should do normal work, which I 
think is a mistake. 

2794. In place of the work the Departments in- • 
sists on their doing, what would you substitute ? — 
In place of the normal work ? 

2795. Yes ? — I should allow them to work at 
other branches of education. 

2796. What other branches? — They might use- 
fully work for the university course. 

2797. For the high school course ? — Yes. 

2798. Would you lay that down as part of a 
new system for the training of teachers — to give 
those optional lines of work ? — The training of 
teachers, I think, is a new thing, and we went too 
far with it when we went about it. We did away 
with all the work that was being done before the 
training of teachers came into existence. 

2799. What work do you refer to as being done 
away with ? — The general education of the pupils, 
apart from being specially prepared for teaching. 

2800. You mean, then, that the old system did 

[A.I.— *0».] Native Edi cation. ff 



450 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. not take over advancing students and train them 
°jabavu g ° for teachers ? — That is what it did not do. 
T! ^tqao 2801. It gave more opportunity to diverge into 

July 20, 1908. ■ , .» ^ r -^-f ^ » 

different lines ? — Y es. 

2802. .Now it is uniformly on the normal course ? 
— Which is the objection. 

2803. Taking that objection as stated, you admit 
a considerable number of advanced pupils must 
be trained for native education if you are to carry 
it on ? — Yes. 

2804. That is so ?— I accept that. 

2805. In training that considerable number of 
advanced students for native education have you 
any practical suggestions as to the way you think 
they could be better trained than under this 
present system ? — The training of teachers, to my 
mind, necessarily involves the existence of 
what they call practising schools. Some institu- 
tions cannot have practising schools for the 
teachers they are training. For instance, Heald- 
town lends itself nicely to the training of teachers, 
because they have a large practising school there, 
and I know when I was there myself we used to 
take turns at classes every week, so as to test the 
instruction we received in the course. 

2806. Is that done now ? — I think they still do 
it there. I do not think Lovedale lends itself to 
that ; it has no practising school. 

2807. You would prefer the system of Heald- 
town in that respect to the system of Lovedale ? — 
I should make certain schools for the training of 
teachers and leave the others to do some other 
work. Take Blythswood, for instance. 

2808. Do you not think, where possible, in the 
training of teachers, some instruction to the 
teacher in the truths of agriculture is very im- 
portant ? — Yes, I accept that. 

2809. That could be done on a very considerable 
scale at Healdtown ? — Yes. 

2810. There is splendid land quite handy to the 
institution, and no distance to go for the purpose 
of learning ? — Yes. For instance, to complete 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 451 

that argument about certain institutions being Mr- 
suitable for normal work, I should think Bl.yth.s- ^bavuf 
wood is not suitable for normal work, because it Jul ~ 1908 
is not a school to speak of. It only does the work 
of the teacher, and it has no practising school. 

2811. What do you mean when you speak of a 
practising school ? — A school where they can see 
the principles of school management in force, or 
acted upon, by those being trained. 

2812. You think an institution training teachers 
should also have a certain number of scholars, in 
order actually to put the teachers to experiment ? 
— That is the point. 

2813. And those scholars should be ordinary 
scholars — not picked scholars ? — Starting from the 
alphabet. That is what we did at Healdtown. 
We were changing about — sometimes to the 
alphabet class and sometimes to the higher classes, 
so as to put into practice our knowledge of school 
management in dealing with these pupils. 

2814. But you would scarcely give the teacher 
control, without limitations, to pass his class up 
from standard to standard ? — That is exactly what 
I want, because it seems to me to keep a child in 
a standard a whole year is not fair, unless he is 
a duffer. 

2815. I was going to say to you, if there is one 
thing the native child requires, as distinct, perhaps, 
from a European child, it is a little longer time in 
the lower standards — not to be forced from the 
lower standards, but to have a little longer time 
to ground himself. Is that so ? I would like to 
know how you look at it, because I know you 
have given great thought to these things. Would 
it not be better to let the child be a little longer in 
the lower standards, in order to allow him to 
ground himself thoroughly in both the Kafir and 
the English languages ? — It may be so, but it does 
not affect the question as to who is to promote. 

2816. Is it your opinion that that would be 
better — to keep him rather longer than the Euro- 
pean child ? Is not the average native child knocked 



452 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Th M T o U P comin & to a new language which he knows 
°j;Tbavu g0 nothing about before beginning to learn, so that he 

Tuiy 20 1908 neec l s a little longer time in the lower standards 
"to avoid cramming? — I do not know whether 
there is anything in that. 

2817. Is it- not so, that if you have two children, 
one of whom is to be taught in the language he 
learnt in his earliest years and the other to be 
taught thoroughly in the language he has learnt 
and then thoroughly in a language that is new — 
that is the native child — then that child 
requires more time to get to a certain standard 
than the one learning in its own language ? — Going 
back to my experience as a child, Ave did not find 
any disadvantage, as native children, in respect of 
European children also in the same school ; they 
never left us behind. 

2218. Perhaps in the case of yourself and a few 
bright minds ? — We did not think of the European 
child as being superior in any way. 

2219. Was not the average European child, with 
the advantage he had of understanding English, 
ahead of the native child who started it not 
understanding English and had to pick it up as 
he went along ? — We did not find it to be so. 

2820. Of course, the standards were very 
different in those days to now ? — I find fault with 
the present standards. 

2821. They were different in those days ? — The 
thing was broader then. At Healdtown there 
were traders' children attending the schools, and 
if we happened to be in the same class we gene- 
rally went up equally well. 

2822. We have had much evidence about the 
Inter-State College, and I do not want to go into 
any great detail ; but I would like to know from 
you — because I know you have given very great 
attention to that institution — do you think it very 
necessary to establish in South Africa a college 
for the higher education of the native students 
that go higher ? — Yes. 

2823. You have had personal experience of that ? 
—Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 453 

2824. You have sent your son to England ? — T , M £- 

v J & John Xengo 

x 6S. Jabavu. 

2825. Are you in a position to aid the Committee Jul — 1908 
with any criticism of the effect of the American 
system upon our natives ? — We have not been able 

to judge yet. 

2826. Have many come back ? — Very few have 
come back, and such as have returned appear to 
be just lost in the grass, as it were. 

2827. We have the idea, from something we have 
heard here, that perhaps in some cases the Ameri- 
can institutions turned out a student as finished, 
and even gave him some diploma or degree, 
whereas he came back and could not write a good 
English letter. Have you had experience of it ? — 

I have not had experience of that sort yet, but I * 

have not seen the work of those who have re- 
turned. 

2828. You are firmly convinced there should be 
an opportunity of higher education in South 
Africa ? — Yes, I am strongly persuaded in that 
direction. 

2829. That does not exclude the possibility that 
some might also go to study abroad, but they 
should have an opportunity in their own country ? 
* — To my mind it seems a disadvantage to go away. 

2830. You see no reason why a college should 
not be established merely because it would at first 
have to include both secondary and higher educa- 
tion within its work ? — I see no objection. 

2831. You know European colleges have passed 
through that phase — that that is the evolution of 
a college, and it only gradually becomes entirely a 
college ? — I quite recognize that. 

2832. You know the Queen Victoria Memorial 
scheme ? — I have heard it. 

2833. Are you aware of its having any financial 
support ? — I do not think it has any support at all 
at present. 

2834. The Inter-State College, as it has been 
called — I prefer thinking of it as the South Afri- 
can Native College — is voluntarily strongly 



454 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. supported, both by natives and Europeans? — Yes. 
°jabJvu. g ° 2835. Without going into figures here, it has a 
Jul 20 1908 s ^ ron §' support, making it a working proposition ? 
,uy ' ' — They are going on with it now. 

2836. Do you think there is room for two such 
colleges ? — Not at present. 

2837. You would suggest that, whatever the 
energies devoted to the establishment of the Queen 
Yictoria Memorial College may be, it would be 
well if they were brought Into touch with the 
energies forming the Inter-State College, and 
form one strong movement ? — Yes. 

2838. Dissipation of energy is dangerous ? — That 
is what I feel. 

2839. Colonel Stanford.'] You say in your opinion 
at present the educational authorities are not 
sufficiently in touch with the people. How would 
you remedy this defect ? — I think I have already 
said the establishment of some local authority is 
what would help us. 

2840. Would you establish that authority in 
connection with the existing mission system, by 
which the missionary is the controlling represen- 
tative on the spot ? — I think the mission system 
has outlived its usefulness — that is, as it exists 
now, or as it was established in 1865 ; things have 
somewhat overgrown that. 

2841. Do you propose school committees as pro- 
vided by the Educational Acts of the Colony ? — 
Not exactly that. They would require to be re- 
modelled as far as natives are concerned, and the 
missionary must still be an important element in 
them. 

2842. You would like still to retain the mission- 
ary's services in connection with a local committee 
or board ?■ — I should say so. To my mind the 
missionary and the headman and a few intelligent 
natives would be the proper authorities if it could 
be established. 

2843. But then if you connected your schools with 
the District Council — if District Councils be estab- 
lished this side of the Kei — you would have the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 455 

magistrate of the district as chairman of the Mr. 
Council, and where would the missionary come in? Jo jabavu. g ° 
— I would be glad if he were introduced some- — 
where, ex officio, as he is almost indispensable at 
the present stage of the advancement of the 
natives, because the whole of the education now is 
in the missionaries' hands, and if we were to give 
it over without consulting them it seems to me 
there would be a great danger of losing the 
advantage of the work of the past. 

2844. Do you think the native people would be 
satisfied to see a system established for the educa- 
tion of their children apart from the system which 
was pursued in respect of European children ? — 
To my mind, their future does not lead to the same 
goal, and therefore the native child ought to be 
suited for his particular future as much as possible. 

2845. Would not that affect his future in respect 
of the preparation for the higher examinations to 
which you aspire ? — I may say I have been 
educated along with a European boy. We went 
up as far as matriculation, and passed. The 
European student was articled at once in an 
attorney's office, and I did try myself to get articles, 
but I could not, and I went into journalism ; and 
as far as I can judge it does not appear that any 
native matriculated student could hope to enter 
that sphere. 

2846. That is my point. You and the European 
child were educated on the same lines, and passed 
the same examination, and circumstances pre- 
vented your being articled. You suggest now that 
the native and European children should not run 
the same course, but should have a separate curri- 
culum. Do you think the native parents would be 
satisfied with that ? — As a native parent, if there 
were some system for fitting the children for their 
future I would, be in favour of it. 

2847. In what way do you think the training of 
the native child should differ from that adopted 
for training a European child ? — It might be, 
possibly, by grading to make the teaching pro- 
fession a good one. 



4,56 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M £ 2848. In connection with that, you recognize the 

°jabavu g ° normal course which has been instituted was with 
Jul 20 1908 ^ a ^ °kJ ec t — 1° prepare the native children for 
' teaching ? — I do not agree with it in detail. 

2849. The main object of the Department was to 
do that ? — They have overdone it, as I have said, 
and on the other side, the work has not been satis- 
factory. 

2850. In what way has the normal course for the 
teaching of natives differed materially from the 
training of European students as teachers ? — I 
think the training of European students as 
teachers is a new movement, if I do not make a 
mistake. 

2851. Can you tell me any point of material 
difference in the method ? — I have not followed 
closely the training of European students. 

2852. What future occupation, besides that of 
teaching, is there to which you think the native 
children might be specially directed, and for which 
they should have a different curriculum ? — As I 
have said, there would be agriculture in its best 
forms. I fancy a great many would get back to 
that. Then there would be the Civil Service in the 
Territories. 

2853. Why should the training of the native 
children for agriculture or Civil Service be on 
different lines from those employed in connection 
with European children ; that is my point ? — There 
are, of course, considerations of languages also as 
regards the native. 

2854. I am speaking not of the use of any 
language as a medium of instruction, but the 
language itself — the teaching. Why should there 
be a different system ? I understood you to speak 
in favour of a different system for the native 
child ? — To fit him for the work he will have to do 
in the future. 

2855. The agriculturist is European as well as 
native, and the Civil Service is the same ?— Then 
we expect they will get a lot of work from the 
Councils when they are established. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 457 

2856. You have not made it clear to me on what Mr. 
grounds you desire different teaching for the native °j a bavu5° 
child in respect of his future avocation ? — Of Jul — i90g 
course I am not satisfied with the work that we 

have to go over together now, because, as I have 
said, in the case of my friend he went into a par- 
ticular profession, into which I could not go. 
Then it became important for those who had 
educated me to have studied my work in after life. 

2857. You were really qualified to enter the pro- 
fession of the lav/ if you could get an attorney to 
article you ? — Yes, but I could not get one, nor is 
there any likelihood of it. 

2858. Chairman^ You are dissatisfied with the 
present system ? — Yes. 

2859. Do you mean you want a different system, 
or that there should be one system for Europeans 
and one system for natives ? — I hold at present the 
feeling that there ought to be a different system 
for the natives. 

2860. Inspections in needlework and music 
would necessarily affect more the girls than the 
boys in any school, would they not ? — It affects all 
the pupils, I think, as regards music, and needle- 
work of course would only affect the girls. 

2861. We have had evidence before us that these 
inspections have led to great improvement in 
the singing of the native children. Do you 
think that is correct ? — I have not had any 
practical knowledge of the subject of late, but the 
native is naturally a singer. I do not know that 
much can be done to improve his singing by 
inspection. 

2862. Are you satisfied with your son's progress 
at the London University ? — Perfectly satisfied. 
That is as far as I can judge by the English he 
writes me. 

2863. I suppose the medium of instruction in 
his case is English entirely, is it not ? — Yes, after 
he had been in this country, of course. 

2864. It is in the higher work in which he is now 
^engaged ? — Yes. 



458 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

joh^Ten o 2865. Mr. de Koch] Is there a general desire on 
°jabavu g ° the part of the natives for this higher education, 



July 20, 1908. 



or is only one section of the people asking for it — 
the educated section ? — Of course it would be the 
educated section, and even those who are back- 
ward, when they hear a certain step is being taken, 
are very pleased. 

2866. That is, the uneducated fall into line with 
the educated ? — That is the position. 

2867. You think it would be a decided step in 
the right direction giving all the natives generally 
an opportunity of receiving this higher education ? 
— Such as desire it and can pay for it. 

2868. And the people are ripe for the purpose of 
receiving the higher education ? — As you go up 
there are always those at the top who are ripe 
for it. 

2869. Not the people as a whole? — Of course 
not. The bulk of the people below would not be 
prepared to receive higher education. 

2870. I take it the idea of asking for this higher 
education is to enable natives to take up other 
walks in life besides being teachers and ministers? 
— It is to qualify them generally for whatever work 
they might take to. 

2871 . The} 7 will eventually, of course, by receiv- 
ing this higher education and becoming equipped 
for the purpose of becoming professional men, 
come in active competition with the white profes- 
sional men in this country ? I mean that would 
follow as a matter of course ? — That is exactly 
what I am not clear on — that they can enter into 
competition at all. 

2872. You do not think they will ? — At present 
there is no way of getting into competition. 

2873. You do not think if they become qualified 
they will become in competition with the white 
practitioners or the white professional men in this 
country ? — It is perfectly possible it may be so, but 
at present I do not see how they can do that. 

2874. What is to prevent them now from be- 
coming qualified ? — I should say it is prejudice. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 459 

2875. They do not get the benefit of a good Mr. 
education in this country ; is that it ? — They do Jo j£bavu 8 '° 
not get it at present, as has been instanced in the ■ - 
case of my boy. I tried to get him educated at King u J 2 
Villiamstown and here, and was told he could not 

be admitted because he was a native bo} x . 

2876. You had no other course open but to send 
him away from the country ? — Yes. 

2877. You do not think it is wise for the natives 
to leave this country to receive their education ? — 
I do not think it is wise. I think if I had received 
my education elsewhere it would have been a 
disadvantage, considering the country is still rough 
and we have to rough it more than in other 
countries ; things there are easier, and may weaken 
them. 

2878. Mr. van Boot/.] You spoke of certain 
prejudices. On whose part is the prejudice ? I 
understood you to say it was prejudice which 
prevented educated boys getting situations in the 
country ? — That is, being articled or admitted into 
European schools. 

2879. On whose part is the prejudice — on the 
part of the natives or the white men ? — I should 
say it was on the part of the Europeans in King 
Williamstown, because this boy of mine was born 
in King AVilliamstown and had played all his life 
with European boys, and when it became a ques- 
tion of his going into school they said, "No ; he will 
not enter the school with us." 

2880. Do you think it is desirable the natives 
and the white men ' should mix to that extent — 
that there should be more social equality ? — I do 
not know where the social element came in, 
because it does not come in the stores, and you 
have them in your homes as servants — in fact as 
servants they are nearer to you than in schools. 

2881. So you would advocate the mixing of 
native and European children jn the schools ? — I 
would not go as far as that, but I think exceptional 
cases are bound to crop up, as in the case of that 
boy who was born amongst those boys and had 



460 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr - played with them, but when it was a case of enter- 
^Jablvu^ ing school he was thrust out. 

— 2882. What difficulties have educated native 

' boys in undertaking any professional calling in 
this country ? — I wanted to be a solicitor, but I 
could not be articled. 

2883. Why not? — I fancy the solicitor who 
articled me would probably be boycotted. 

2884. That was only prejudice ; there was noth- 
ing else to stand in the way ? — Nothing else, but it 
is sufficient to keep these people out of these pro- 
fessions. 

2885. Is that a feeling that pretty generally 
exists — that the native is at a disadvantage in this 
country in getting employment as an educated 
man or as a professional ? — As regards employ- 
ment, I do not think there ,are so many qualified 
men to have tested that particular field of the 
subject. I must say I feel that. We have tested 
it as regards the entering into schools and the 
training, but as regards qualified men beyond that I 
do not think we can fairly say they have been kept 
out. One of my friends has passed into the Civil 
Service, and was at once appointed as interpreter 
in native languages in the High Court ; so we 
could not make such allegations against the 
Government, because that man was trained for a 
particular purpose and he got his appointment, 
and I think they have done so in regard to the 
Civil Service ; all those who passed got their 
appointments. 

2886. There is a feeling amongst the natives, I 
fancy, that they have very poor chances of obtain- 
ing profitable undertakings in this country amongst 
the whites ; the door is not as open for the 
educated native as for the white man to obtain 
profitable service in this country — either in 
Government service or any private undertaking ? 
— There may be a belief, but I do not think it has 
been given the test yet sufficiently to express a 
decided opinion on the point. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 461 

2887. Unless they can see that there is a good Mr. 
future before them in any calling in this country, °jabavu 8 ° 



it is not likely that they will be anxious to secure 
higher education ? — We feel that they should be 
equipped with education, so that they may see 
what it would be well for them to do. The educa- 
tion is a sort of equipment for the battle of life. 
The people feel if they are properly equipped they 
may find their way into certain positions. 

2888. Where would they find them ?— In the 
country itself. 

2889. Amongst ? — Amongst their own people ; 
for instance in the Natiye Territories. 

2890. As doctors and attorneys? — They may 
become doctors if it is possible. We do not expect 
they can become doctors in this country as yet, 
because Europeans are not made doctors here, but 
probably as law agents and attorneys in their own 
territory ; and I think there are good openings in 
such places as Basutoland. 

2891 . The natiye people would prefer to haye a 
man of their own nationality to undertake this 
sort of work ? — I should say so. That is what we 
feel. 

2892. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] The career is abso- 
lutely open in all law to a natiye as well as to a 
European, is it not ; I mean legally speaking ? — 
Legally speaking, I think it is. 

2893. And so is the Ciyil Service, legally 
speaking ? — That is more open, I think, than the 
professions. 

2894. But, in point of fact, what you feel is that 
there is a strong prejudice existing ? — That is what 
we feel. 

2895. On the point of prejudice, is there not a 
certain strong feeling among the natiye people 
rather in fayour of not too much mixing between 
the Europeans and the natiyes ? — I think there is 
that. 

2896. It is a natural feeling ? — I should say so, 
because coming down by the railway I have been 
more comfortable without the Europeans than 



July 20 ; 1908, 



July 20, 1908. 



462 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

t h M t with them, except a European I know and can 
°j&b&vu 8 ° converse with. But that is just the same as 

regards our own people ; I would not like to mix 

with all of them. 

2897. Educationally, would you not think that 
it is better to have, for all practical purposes, a 
separate institution where the native boys or girls 
receive their education, rather than they should 
mix in the same schools with Europeans ? Which 
would you yourself think better for them ? — I 
think the separation is better. 

2898. You share that view ? — At present, yes. 

2899. There may come a time, possibly, when 
that will not be so, but that is your view, practi- 
cally, in regard to the education of the country ? — 
Even in the past there has been no evil with the 
natives and Europeans having been educated 
together, so far as I know. 

2900. You speak with special reference to places 
like Lovedale ? — Lovedale and Healdtown. 

2901. The better thing is to have a separate in- 
stitution ? — I think so. 

2902. And, to make it clear for the records, what 
you felt in your own case was that you could not 
get articled when you wanted to become an attor- 
ney ? — Yes. 

2903. You know, of course, that it is a privilege 
to get into the office of an attorney, apart from 
being a native or not, for which people pay as much 
as 100 guineas, and then the attorney will select 
the one he wants to have from amongst his own 
friends ? — Yes. 

2904. It is not something legally closed to you, 
but you could not find an attorney who would 
make choice of you as an articled clerk ? — No, and 
even if there were one I should say he would run 
considerable risks by making such a choice. 

2905. Do you think he would be boycotted ? — I 
think so. 

2906. I admit the difficulty there would be, but 
a native student desiring to become an attorney 
has got the opportunity by going to England and 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 463 

becoming a solicitor there ? — Would he not require Mr- 
further examination on coming out ? °jabavu. g ° 

2907. None, except moving for his admission. I — 190g 
am not suggesting there is much scope in that way 

for entering into practice in the big centres, but in 
connection with what you said as to his being able 
to practice amongst his own people, there is that 
way — by passing his examinations in England and 
obtaining admission here — just as has been done 
in the case of barristers, as you know ? — I think as 
regards barristers one has just to pass a law 
examination. 

2908. He has simply to take a B.A. and LL.B of 
the University, and he can be admitted as freely 
as any white man in this country ? — Yes. 

2909. As regards serving articles, in which it is 
discretionary for the attorney to choose his clerks, 
it makes it perfectly necessary for going through 
some other machinery to arrive there. You would 
scarcely suggest the attorney should be forced to 
select his clerks ? — Oh, no ; you could not do it. 

2910. Mr. Murray.] In referring to the present 
educational system, you were very clear you 
thought there was something radically wrong ? — 
Yes. I am of that opinion. 

2911. Are you quite as clear in suggesting how 
to make it radically right? — We have certain 
nostrums, if I may be allowed to use the expres- 
sion, for that. 

2912. The nostrum simply is to allow the 
teacher to decide on what to teach and how to 
arrange his classes ? — That is one thing. 

2913. And the other ?— The other would, of 
course, be in the alteration of the syllabus of the 
normal course and t)f the standards. 

2914. In the standards up to Standard IY. would 
you make a definite suggestion as to an alteration ? 
— It has, of course, been proposed that the lower 
standards might be done in the vernacular. 

2915. And then, as regards the normal course ? 
— I do away with the normal three years' course ; 
that is, do away with the examination in connec- 



464 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M £ tion with that, and only have one final examina- 

°jS>avu. g0 tion for the normal course. As I have said, I 

Jul 20" 1908 won ld nave the normal course at the institutions 

where there would be practising schools, and 

nowhere else. 

2916. Does it not strike you that when the best 
educational authorities — almost everywhere, I 
might say — are agreed as to the necessity for a gradu- 
ated normal course, such as we have at present, there 
must be a good deal to say for it ? — We come to 
the question of experts then. I can only judge by 
results. 

2917. Do you think in judging by results you 
have actually taken all the circumstances into 
consideration ? — I think I have generally done so, 

2918. Is there not a great tendency in our minds 
to think things were better in our days than they 
are now ? — That is natural, I think, but we feel so 
strongly on this point that we think there might 
be a reversion to what we got. 

2919. When you say " we feel so strongly," how 
long have you felt so. strongly on this point ?— It 
is some years past — since the results of this course 
have come to be felt. 

2920. You went as far as to say you think the 
present teachers are mentally and morally inferior 
to the teachers who were at the head of schools r 
say twenty years ago ? — Yes. 

2921. You do not wish to qualify that state- 
ment ? — That seems to me the result of my obser- 
vations. 

2922. In what year when you were a teacher was 
your class last inspected ? — I left the position of 
school teacher in 1881, and I think the last inspec- 
tion must have been about then. 

2923. Have you perhaps noticed that the Euro- 
pean teachers assembled in conference in Cape 
Town this year by a majority decided in favour 
of individual inspection ? — I have not followed 
the discussions of that conference. 

2924. As regards class inspection only, are you 
quite clear that you would wish it both in institu- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 465 

tions and the ordinary native schools ? — Generally, Mr. 
I should wish it. *t£?r 

2925. Chairman.] Have you anything further to Jul 2 7 1908 
say ? — I think all the ground has been covered by 

the questions. 

2926. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~\ In speaking of the 
young native'people, are you in favour of divorcing 
the education of the young native people from 
direct religious instruction ? — Certainly not. 

2927. You consider direct religious instruction 
is of high value in real education ? — That is my 
idea. 

2928. A system of purely undenominational 
education, with no religious instruction in it, has 
no sympathy from you ? — Oh, no ; certainly not. 

2929. And the element of the missionary you 
still said you thought was now out of date ? — That 
is the mission school element ? 

2930. Yes, the missionary element in the 
educational work? — What I meant by that was 
that the time had arrived to associate the 
missionary with some of the people in the control 
of the school. . + 

2931. Controlled by the missionary with the 
advice of the people, do you mean, or controlled 
by the people with the advice of the missionary — 
which ? — I would propose a board, on which the 
missionary and the headmen would have a seat, 
ex officio. 

2932. Headmen elected or appointed ? — I should 
say the appointed headmen. 

2933. In the event of a difference of opinion 
between the missionary and the headmen elements, 
to avoid friction would you say that the decision 
would be left with the Superintendent- General of 
Education ? — Then I would always make provision 
for the educated native element on the board — the 
missionary, the headmen and the educated^ natives. 

2934. The educated natives electing certain 
persons ? — Yes. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. GG 



July 20, 1908. 



466 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M *. 2935. Of course if they worked harmoniously 

Jo jabJvu. g ° together you would leave them to decide ? — 
Exactly. 

2936. But if they came to a difference on a point 
whom would you call in to decide that difference ? 
— We should refer to the Superintendent- General. 

2937. Recognizing that the Government would 
still be paying money into the school, the referee 
should be, say, the Superintendent-General to-day? 
— Yes. 

2938. If there was a. Minister of Education, you 
would probably say you would like him ? — Yes. 

2939. Except here and there, do you think there 
is that understanding of educational matters in the 
ordinary headmen which would enable that 
system to work well ? Here and there it is so, but 
do you think it is generally so ? — I do not think it 
is generally so. 

2940. You say you would like a beginning made 
in the matter ? — Yes. 

2941. Is not education rather a delicate subject 
to have controlled simply by unskilled, though 
otherwise good, headmen ? — Unfortunately, the 
headmen are, as it were, appointed by the civil 
authority — the Government — and they acquire 
considerable influence with the rjeople on that 
account, and if we cannot get their influence, or it 
is used against education, it may be lamentable. 

2942. You might find in some places there was 
no particular feeling in favour of education 
amongst the headmen, or even some of the educa- 
ted men? — They would, of course, correct each 
other on coming together. 

2943. You said you would have representation 
only of an element representing the educated 
native ? — Yes, we would have that also. 

2944. But the money that would have to be 
supplied would also have to be supplied by the 
uneducated native ? — Yes. 

2945. So you would have a rate upon the unedu- 
cated native. Would you exclude him then from 
being represented on the board ? — No. I think the 
taxpayers ought to be represented. 



1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 467 

2946. Chairman.'] You said you would be against M £ 
education without religion ? — Yes. jabavT g ° 

2947. Do you think it is possible for the denomi- Jul — 
nations to work together in this matter of religion? 
— Well, in this Inter- State College it is provided 
that there should be hostels, where the denomina- 
tional influence would be exerted upon the boys. 

2948. In the ordinary schools, would it be 
possible to have some form of simple Bible 
teaching which all the denominations would agree 
upon ? — I think it is desirable to have that. 

2949. Do you think it would be possible ? — I 
think so. 

2950. Mr. Murray.'] In the draft of the Inter- State 
College scheme, which I have seen, it was suggested 
some manual labour should be compulsory upon 
-every student going there ? — Yes. 

2951. Do you think in practice that could be 
carried out ? — The learning of a trade, or some- 
thing like that ? 

2952. All it says is that every student will have 
to do a certain amount of manual labour every 
day. Do you think that that regulation could be 
carried out in practice? — I can only go by my 
own case. We had certain hours of work in the 
garden at Healdtown, and they had the same, I 
think, at Lovedale and other institutions. I had 
this idea — that those hours might be utilized for 
this particular purpose. 

2953. You think it could be carried out ? — I 
think it could be in that way, but some might 
like to take the trade of carpentering, and others 
might like to become boot-makers, and if .they 
could do those things we think it would be helpful 
to them in after-life. 

2954. Mr. W. P. Schreiner."] They are naturally 
-clever at blacksmiths' work — working iron? — 
Yes. 



468 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEEOEE THE 

Tuesday, 21st July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Colonel Stanford (Acting Chairman). 



Mr. Levey. 
Mr. de Kock. 



Mr. van Eoov 



The Rev. Canon Cyril Edwin Earl Bulwer,. 
examined. 

The Rev. 2955. Acting Chairman']. You are a Priest in 

Uanon Cyril „ -. n >-, ^t -, n n t^ • n, 

Edwin Eari Holy Orders of the Church 01 the Province or 

Buiwer. g 0Tlt h Africa ?— Yes. 
July 21, 1908. 2956. And you reside at Umtata ? — Yes. 

2957. Have you special work there in connection 
with the training and education of native 
students ? — I am in charge of a native institution 
for training native teachers, and an elementary 
school attached to the training school. 

2958. From what part do you draw your 
students ? — Almost every part of the Transkei — 
the Native Territories — although there are very 
few from Fingoland ; they generally come to the 
Colony schools. Then we get them from Tembu- 
land and Pondoland and the other way — Griqua- 
land East. The majority of our students are 
drawn from those places. 

2959. And for your training institution do they 
usually come having acquired a certain measure 
of education ? — Up to Standard IV. A few have 
passed Standards V. and VI. before coming to the 
institution. 

2960. Do you require that they shall have 
passed Standard IV. before you receive them into 
your institution ? — No.. 

2961. What is your course of training in the 
institution ? — For teachers ? 

2962. Teachers first? — First, second and third 
year pupil teachers' course. 

2963. Do you take them through the standards 
first ? — They have to pass Standard VI. somewhere : 
before they can enter the pupil teachers' course. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 469 

2964. What number of these students have you The Rev. 
at the present time in your institution? — There eTw^eS 1 
are about 60 in the normal school in the pupil Buiwer. 
teachers' course in the three years — 40 in the first j n iy 2TJ 1908. 
year and 20 in the second and third years. 

2965. And in the work do they acquit them- 
selves creditably or not ? — Very creditably in the 
second and third years. We generally expect to 
lose about half in the first year. 

2966. For what reason ? — I think usually they 
are confused at first. They get nervous, and the 
time is very short for the papers. They have 
hardly got used to the fact of being in an 
examination — a written examination especially — 
before the time is up. We usually expect to have 
about 50 per cent, of failures in the first year, but 
by the time they take the second and third years 
they have become more accustomed to it. and 
come out much better. 

967. Do these students who fail to so large an 
extent in the first examination continue and try 
again ? — A good many do. Others will leave and 
try to get work as teachers, and come back again 
for a second try. 

2968. That would seem to indicate that they 
should be given a rather longer course of study, 
then, before attempting the first examination ? — 
They are usually well up, in the work, and we 
trace it to nervousness really. It is the first serious 
examination they have ever had. The other ex- 
aminations are mostly oral — inspection examina- 
tions up to Standard VI. — and this is the first 
really serious written examination. That is what 
we put it down to ; whether that is the real cause 
I cannot say for certain. 

2969. In your work do you follow the syllabus 
as laid down by the Education Department ? — 
Yes. 

2970. Are you satisfied with it ? — Well, at our 
meeting at King Williamstown last week we 
talked about the question of teaching in the ver- 
nacular, and we were agreed that it is better to 



470 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rer. teach in Kafir alone up to and including Standard 
EXi^Eari III., with a little instruction in English conversa- 
Buiwer. tion, so as to accustom the children to a little 
July 27, 1908. English, but to teach them through the medium of 
Kafir up to Standard III. In Standard III. we 
were suggesting an English reader as well as a 
Kafir reader. Above Standard III. the suggestion 
was to teach through the medium of English, but 
not to drop the native language ; to keep it on 
throughout the whole course in the form of read- 
ing or composition. We find they read Kafir very 
badly even in the high standards, and write it 
very badly. That was our opinion at the confer- 
ence. 

2971. Is there any other change that you 
suggest ? — Our teachers complain a little about 
certain subjects in the normal course, which they 
say are unnecessary for natives, but of course as 
long as you have the education of natives going 
side by side with that of Europeans we cannot 
help ourselves ; we are bound to keep to our 
syllabus. We think it would be better for the 
whole course to be overhauled, and, if possible, a 
distinct course for natives prepared more suitable 
for their requirements. 

2972. What are these subjects which, in the 
opinion of the individual teachers, are unnecessary 
for them to pursue ? — I do not know about the 
European teachers. I think history — although 
history is not compulsory in the first year — and 
geogiaphy seem to be overdone more than is 
necessary for their needs. 

2973. Still, yon would not say such subjects as 
history and geography are unnecessary for the 
advancing native ? — Not unnecessary, but perhaps 
that teaching could be put in a form which would 
be more suitable for them, such as the history of 
England and the geography of Europe ; stress 
should not be laid on them so much as on Colonial 
geography. 

2974. Is there any other suggestion you have to 
make regarding the curriculum ? — Some sugges- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 471 

tion of this kind was made at our conference — The Rev. 
that the first year pupil teachers' course should eXILeS 1 
not be devoted to work such as it is now — work- Buiwer. 
ing up for a first year examination — but should be j u i y 21, 1908. 
more a preparatory course for teachers : not so 
much learning of book work, but giving them 
instruction more in school management, so as to 
leave the second and third year more for learning 
— because so many of our teachers are unable to 
finish the whole course, and they leave the insti- 
tution, perhaps, after passing the first year with 
very little knowledge how to teach. We thought 
it would be better if the first year were devoted 
more to school management and practical teach- 
ing, and the second and third years devoted to 
examination work. 

2975. Do you not give your students any train- 
ing or practice at all in school management and 
teaching ? — Yes ; but it is so little, because the 
time is very limited. The subjects are hard for 
them, and they have to give a lot of time to study, 
and cannot spare much time for practical work. 

2976. Is your own personal view in favour of 
these changes which you say were suggested at 
your Convention ? — Yes, I am quite in favour of 
them. 

2977. You mentioned a distinct course for native 
students differing, I presume, from that followed 
for Europeans ? — Y r es. 

2978. Have you anything to say to the Com- 
mittee on that point ? — We have felt in the educa- 
tion of natives it is difficult for them to enter into 
competition exactly on the same lines as European 
children, and that the European education is not 
quite suitable for the requirements of the natives. 
It would require educational experts to devise a 
course that would be suitable for the natives, and 
we did not think of suggesting anything ourselves, 
but suggesting the opinion that it would be better 
for the natives to have another course. 

2979. Y r ou do not feel you have anything really 
practical to put before us ? — No practical sugges- 
tions. 



472 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 2980. What do 3^011 think would be the feeling 

Ed^SiEar/ of the natives themselves in respect of the training 

Buiwer. f their children differing from that afforded to 

July 21, 1908. European children ? — I do not think they would 

like it exactly. There seems to be a feeling that 

they want to be just on the same level, and 1 see 

the principal of Lovedale is in favour of that also 

— that no change shall be made. The feeling may 

be different in the Colony to what it is in the 

Transkei. I have got the idea — it may be only my 

idea — that in the Transkei there would be very 

little difficulty as far as that is concerned, but in 

the Colony there might be a difficulty with the 

natives. 

2981. What aid do you get from the Government 
for your institution ? — We get teachers 1 salary 
grants and maintenance grants, and half grants for 
school material. I think that is all. 

2982. For the rest then do you finance your in- 
stitution on fees paid for the students ? — Well, we 
cannot finance it from the fees, because the fees 
barely pay for the boarding of the scholars. We 
have to depend largely upon our own church 
funds and assistance from England. Our trade 
department just makes ends meet. 

2983. Do many of your students, after passing 
through your hands, take to teaching as an occu- 
pation ? — Yes. Of course they are bound by an 
agreement to teach for a certain time after leaving 
the institution, and as a matter of fact they do so. 

2984. Is your aim to produce teachers for the 
schools in connection with your church? — Not 
necessarily in connection with our church, because 
we have a great many boys who do not belong to 
the English Church. " 

2985. Do you have the same agreement with the 
boys not belonging to your denomination ? — It is a 
Government agreement. It is an agreement they 
enter into with the Department, and not with us 
personally. 

2986. Have you any opportunity of following 
the careers in after life of your students ? — Onlv 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 



47; 



those who work under myself, speaking personally. c ^^\ x 
Of course there are other clergy in the diocese who eSSi Eari 
draw their teachers from us ; that is to say, boys Bu ^ er - . 
who come from their parishes and are trained in j u i y 21 /^os. 
our institution go back there to teach. We hear 
occasionally about them. Many of them m$J&&- 
ployed. however, in our own sehaofe. 

2987. What opinion hay^-ybu formed regarding 
those careers ? Are th/ey creditable or otherwise ? 
— I must say usually they are very creditable. 
They do their work, quite as well as one can expect 
them to do under r the circumstances. The life is 
very hard for th^m. They are usually drafted out 
to an out-statio'n, and have to live with the red 
people, and gerierally have no place to stay except 
wi.th the headmen. The life is a very haid one 
and full of te mptation, but in the great majority 
of cases they come out very well. 

2988. At w^at salaries do they usually begin in 
these schools ? — Certificated teachers draw £24 in 
normal times from the Government and £18 from 
the District/ Council, because all my schools are 
in District /Council areas. Uncertificated teachers 
draw £20 from the Government and £15 fiom the 
District Council. 1 have many certificated 
teachers now who are drawing only uncertificated 
teachers' salaries, because there have been no 
increases from the beginning of this year. 

2989. T suppose you would like to see betterment 
•of the position of teachers ? — The salaries are very 
low. I /am sorry to say teachers find it very hard 
to get oh on the existing salaries. They are usually 
in de)6t. It is not only because they are im- 
provident ; they really seem not to have enough. 
In a/ great many cases they run into debt at the 
institutions in order to qualify, and then they 
have to pay back that money to the institutions 
after they begin to teach, and in great number of 
cafses they have to support their families at home. 
It is difficult for them. 

2990. Do vou give your students any sort of 



industrial training? — Yes. The pupil teachers 



474 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the 

The Rev. have to go through the usual three years' course of 
eTwSieSi woodwork, and then we have a separate industrial 
Buiwer. branch — carpenters' — independently of the normal 
j n i^ai, 1908. course. 

2991. Do you teach them anything in the way 
olericulture ? — The boy boarders have what we 
call maiiu^ V£J& every day for an hour and a 
half before breakfast." |V r e teach them as much as 
we can in the lands. TlWJ work in the lands. 
They do fencing and repairing of fencing, and the 
making and repairing of roa$s on the mission. 
There is no proper industrial teaching apart from 
the woodwork. \ 

2992. Do thev do any actual cultivation of the 
soil?— Yes. Of course we cannot l^t them plough,, 
because the time is so short in the\ morD ing,. anc l 
we generally have to employ hir^d labour for 
that kind of work ; the boys do work in the lands, 
which helps. ^ 

2993. Do they do the work willingly ?— Yes. 

2994. And show interest in it ? a— Generally,, 
especially if it is of an interesting nat nr e, such as 
learning draining or making roads. ] 

2995. You have described what you do in respect 
of students taking the normal course. | Have you 
students who do not take that course inl the insti- 
tution ? — Only those who are preparMg for the 
normal course. We have no higher \education 
classes at all. \ 

2996. How is your mission school classed ? — The 
elementary school is " C." 

2997. Tliat is the aborigines ?— Yes. The^ormal 
school is CI. 

2998. What is the work in your mission school ? 
—From sub-standards to Standard VI.— that J- s tne 
elementary school, the practising school realty — 
preparing for the normal school. 

2999. Up to the present, has the medium*- of 
instruction been entirely English ? — I would n°t 
say so. I would say it is supposed to have bee J 1 
English, but as a matter of fact in practical teachr 
ing it has to be largely in Kafir. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 475 , 

3000. Had you the impression that it was the The Rev. 
desire of the Education Department that you Ed^aEari 
should strictly adhere to English as the medium Buiwer. 
of instruction ? — We supposed so, because all the j u i y 21, 1908. 
readers are English. We have no instruction to 

teach them Kafir readers, although we do so as a 
matter of fact, which is on our own responsibility 
really. All the readers we are supposed to teach 
them are English, and all the text-books. 

3001. Do you find the children, when they first 
come to your school, to be intelligent ? — Well, we 
get them just from the town from the lowest 
standards of all — the sub-standards. Those coming 
to us from the out-stations, after passing Standard 
IV., we do not find very intelligent or bright. 
We have an idea that the standard of passing 
Standard IY. in the out-stations is a lower one 
than we have at the institution. Very often they 
fail to pass Standard Y. with us at the first time 
of training, but we put that down to a very 
imperfect knowledge of English which they have 
in the out-stations. Thev talk the native languages 
more than in the institution. 

3002. Is there steady progression, or do they 
come to a point at which they seem to stop ? — 
Individual children ? 

3003. Take the average ? — It depends so much 
on the age. We find the young boys especially 
are very sharp, and go right to the end of their 
course with scarcely a break. If a boy comes at 
the age of 19 or 20 in Standard IV. or V. it is 
very rarely that he will get beyond the first year. 
They seem above that age to have come to the end 
of their intelligence, and get very dull and heavy. 
We always encourage the younger boys ; they 
seem much more successful. 

3004. What is your explanation of this ? — It is 
hard to say. I think it is a natural dullness which 
comes to this kind of native character. # They 
begin to think about different things, more than 
their school work, I think. You know what they 
are. They think of getting married, and leaving 



476 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Eev. school, and so on, and it seems to affect their 
eXLeIii brains in some way. so that they get very dull 

Buiwer. anc [ heavy at that age. 
July 21, 1908. 3005. How often is your school inspected ? — We 
have an annual formal inspection of the elemen- 
tary practising school, but the inspector visits us 
informally occasionally, according to his own 
arrangements. 

3006. Are those informal visits welcomed by 
you ? — Quite. We do not mind at all when he 
comes. The only time when we are a little sorry 
is just at the beginning of a term, because at a 
boarding school the boys comeback very slowly; and 
we do not like to get a report from the Education 
Office calling us over the coals for poor attendance 
when we know that in a day or two it would have 
been much improved. 

3007. How do your children regard these in- 
formal visits ? — I do not think they know much 
about them. There is no inspection ; it is just 
examination of the registers and counting the 
numbers, and the premises are inspected, and so 
on. 

3008. Do you find these visits are in any way a 
serious interruption of your work ? — No. 

3009. Necessarily, at the annual inspection the 
work has to be stopped for the purpose ? — Of 
course. 

3010. Have you needlework ?— Yes. 

3011. And music ? — Yes. 

3012. And examiners in those subjects ? — -Yes. 

3013. Do you think that is good ?— We find our- 
selves overdone with special inspection, and 
especially when they come all at the same time ; 
about the third quarter of the year, perhaps, we 
shall have three or four of these special inspectors 
or instructors. It certainly does interfere with 
the work. 

3014. What special instructors have you visiting 
you ? — We have them in woodwork, drawing, 
singing, needlework, and lately the special 
inspector of training schools. I think there are 
about five altogether. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 4/ t 

3015. Do you think these special instructors The Rev. 
should be continued, or are there some whose eXiLeS 
services you coulcl dispense with ? — It is very Buiwer. 
difficult to answer. It might be possible to do jui y 21, 1908. 
without them if our ordinary inspector had the 
expert knowledge of these particular branches. 

3016. But you recognize there must be some 
teaching in these special branches ? — Oh, certainly. 
We do not mean to say that these special subjects 
are unnecessary, only it is a little bit trying to our 
work to have the whole work of the school stopped 
for the sake of a special instructor. 

3017. What time does the special instructor 
usually take up ? — The woodwork, I suppose, 
would take three or four days. 

3018. That is very important, is it not, in the 
education of children ? — That is very important. 
We do not object to that all. The drawing seems 
to b£ unnecessary, somehow. It is rather a new 
branch ; we have only had the inspector once. 
We have an idea that the old method of teaching 
drawing and method of inspection was sufficient. 

3019. Do you consider needlework essential ? — 
There ought to be instructors in needlework. 

3020. Music ? — I suppose the music is necessary 
also. Very often an ordinary inspector, perhaps, 
would have very little knowledge of music. It is 
an important subject undoubtedly, especially with 
natives. 

3021. Is there a desire amongst the native people 
to get higher education, as it is termed, for their 
children ? — One gathers that there is a great feeling 
in that direction. I suppose that is more so in 
the Colony than the Transkei. 

3022. Do you approve of the suggested establish- 
ment of the native college ? — We have approved of 
it, given the assistance of special hostels. 

3023. Is it the intention of your church to build 
a hostel in connection with that establishment ? — 
I cannot say, but the matter has already been con- 
sidered, and I have no doubt some step will be 
taken in that direction. 



478 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3024. Is there general progress throughout the 

EXiiiEari Territories, as you are acquainted with them, in 

Buiwer. respect of education or not ? — That is to say, 

July 21, 1908. education itself being improved, or being accepted 

by the people ? 

3025. Is it spreading ? — I do not see very many 
signs of its spreading. We find it very diiilcult to 
keep the attendance in our out-station schools up 
to what we consider to be its proper position. 

3026. Have you not many more schools now 
than ten or fifteen years ago ? — The schools have 
increased very greatly, especially since the estab- 
lishment of the General Council, but although 
headmen seem to be anxious to have a school in 
their location, when it has been established they 
do not seem to take very much trouble to keep the 
attendance up to what we expect ; that is our 
threat difficulty. 

3027. But would not you say you have a great 
many more native children at school now than 
you had ten years ago ? — Yes that is quite true. 

3028. Is the Council system, in your experience, 
giving satisfactory results amongst the people, 
educationally and otherwise ? — It is an enormous 
help to us, principally from our point of view of 
paying teachers. Previously the teachers would 
only get a regular salary from the Government, 
and the local contributions were almost non- 
existent. They were supposed to get something 
from the people, but they did not get it. Our 
position since the establishment of the Council has 
been very good so far. Then the Council is attempt- 
ing to improve the attendance at schools, but not 
successfully. They are suggesting now the estab- 
lishment of Councils on each location, which I am 
hoping, if it is worked on right lines, will have 
some good effect. 

3029. Do you think this movement on the part 
of the Council is calculated to bring you into 
closer touch with the native people on the question 
of education ? — Well, with us in my portion of the 
Territories the people are mostly heathen, and they 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 479 

knew very little about education or the benefits of The ^ ev -. 
it. But the Council is certainly helping us in many EdwSiEari 

WayS. Bulwer. 

3030. Have you any experience of the desire on j u i y 21, im 
the part of some of the natives to establish some 

form of local control, by means of committees or 
otherwise? — Yes, by means of school committees or 
school councils in each location. They do seem to 
want to get some kind of control over their schools. 
So long as they do not interfere with the mission- 
ary superintendents, I think it will be for the good, 
but I see a possible danger of a conflict between 
the missionaries and these councils, unless it is very 
wisely guided. There is to be a meeting of all the 
missionaries in the Transkei at Umtata next month 
to consider this question. We have been asked by 
the Council to give individual opinion about the 
establishment of these school committees, and we 
think it best not to give individual opinion, but to 
discuss the matter as a whole. 

3031. Do you think at this stage the missionary 
superintendence is absolutely essential ? — I think 
so. 

3032. Do you think a way would be found by 
which you, as missionary superintendents, could 
co-operate with some form of representation on 
behalf of the people ? — I think it would be a little 
difficult if it comes to the question of the appoint- 
ment of teachers. That is my feeling, because the 
qualifications we like to have in our teachers will 
not be those which appeal to the people as a whole. 
A man might, in our' opinion, be unfit to be a 
teacher, but a very popular man with the people 
of the location, and there is very likely to be a 
good bit of feeling on that particular point. No- 
thing but good can come as long as the Council is 
to assist us in the matter of establishing schools, 
building and repairing of schools and the attend- 
ance of children. 

3033. Do you not think good might be done too 
by allowing the local committee an opportunity to 
express its views even on the question of the selec- 



480 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. tion of the teacher ? — It would be all right if we 

EdwhiEari" could trust the motive of the local people, but my 

Buiwer. experience of them is such that I could not very 

July 21, 1908. well trust to that. I would far rather trust my 

own judgment than have it altered. 

3034. But I take it the form you would desire at 
the present time would be that of an advisory 
committee simply ? — Well, we do consult with 
them. I never dismissed a teacher without 
advising the headmen of the location and having 
previously called a meeting of his people and 
putting before them the reasons of any change 
taking place. I never sent a new teacher to a 
school without first taking him to the headmen 
and the people coming together, and introducing 
him to them. 

3035. Do you find this procedure helpful ? — Yes,. 
it helps ; but where there are certain reasons, such 
as moral reasons, to cause me to send a teacher 
away from a school, I have always found a 
tendency on the part of the people — especially if 
they were heathens— to make difficulty. Of course 
they have had no real power, but you could tell 
by the way they spoke they did not like it. 

3036. What you want to avoid is dual control ? 
—Yes. 

3037. Of course you give religious instruction in 
your school and institution ? — Yes. 

3038. Do you think that is necessary? — I am 
sure it is absolutely necessary in our mission 
schools. In all dealings with natives I do not 
know what control there would be without moral 
training. We find there is a very great lack of 
moral training in their homes when they become 
civilized. 

3039. Unless you endeavour to supply it in your 
schools ? — We try to supply it as far as possible in 
the schools. 

3040. Are you satisfied with the results of your 
training in this direction ? — We must be satisfied 
so far. It is very slow. It would be far more 
effectual if we could depend more on parental 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 481 

authority, which seems to be very much lacking The Rev. 
amongst the natives. The young people especially Ed*°in Eari 
are allowed to do mostly what they like when Buw. 
they are at home, and the parents make very little j u i y si" 1908. 
effort to keep them under control. If we, in our 
school- work, were assisted by the parents at home, 
the greatest results would be obtained, I am sure. 

3041. Do you anticipate by and bye these youths 
who have had the advantage of your training 
will be able, in their homes, to establish a better 
order of things ? — Yes, I think so. We occasionally 
come across some very strong moral characters 
amongst our boys, who cannot fail to be of great 
help when they get home. 

3042. Mr. Levey.'] Do you think any more atten- 
tion should be paid to the training of the natives 
in manual labour than at present exists ? — That is 
to say. in the teaching of trades ? 

3043. Principally vegetable and fruit gardening 
and agricultural labour ? — It is impracticable, I 
may say, in out-stations, but it might be done by 
institutions. 

3044. . If such a scheme could be adopted it 
would be very useful to the people. ? — It would be 
very useful. 

3045. Do you not think, as a means towards that 
end, the teachers might pass an examination in 
elementary agriculture or arboriculture? Sup- 
pose there is a farm established by the Govern- 
ment, or some missionary institution, where 
teachers could go for a course of training, do you 
not think it would have a good effect on the 
teachers when they went out to the locations to know 
a little about tree-planting and growing vegetables 
and potatoes, and so on, so that they might impart 
it to the pupils ? — The difficulty is the kind of 
country we have to deal with. Our country is 
very dry, and the schools are generally established 
on ridges, where there is practically no opportunity 
for that kind of instruction. 

3046. Could you not select a piece of ground 
where there are schools. Even the owner of land 

[A. 1 -08.] Native Education. mi 



482 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

cf h n^T'i m i& n t £* Ye an acre °^ land, or have his garden 

EawfrBKti cultivated, and lend it to the school ? — I am afraid 

Buiwer. ^n the Territories we could not. We find it very 

juiy 21, 1908. difficult even to get a piece of land for the teacher's 

o^n use. He generally gets the worst piece there 

is — the most stony. 

3047. You think it would be good if we could 
get land? — Yes, if there could be any scheme de- 
vised for teaching agriculture. 

3048. I take it the idea of the boys is to give 
them an education to enable them to make a living 
in the future? — They learn agriculture at home. 
They are herd boys, and usually plough in the 
ploughing seasons, and the girls do the work about 
their homes. 

3049. It is a poor kind of agriculture, and they 
might do much better by working as the Euro- 
peans do ? — That has been tried in the Transkei, 
but we do not know yet of the results which have 
come from the agricultural institution. Some of 
us are afraid the natives are too conservative, and 
on leaving the institutions will go back to their 
old methods of agriculture at home. 

3050. What does a native boy pay for his board 
and teaching ? — We have two tables, depending on 
the food. They do not pay for the education, as 
such, but for the food. It is £9 a year for the 
lower table and £12 a year for the higher table. 

3051. They get boarding and teaching for that ? 
—Yes. 

3052. You mentioned the different number of 
inspectors inspecting for sewing and music. What 
kind of sewing is it ? Is it just plain sewing? — 
There is a syllabus which we have to adhere to. 

3053. Could not the inspector himself be sufficient 
judge ? — He used to do so, but I have no doubt the 
sewing is far better under the present conditions, 
although we sometimes think the syllabus is too 
complicated. 

3054. What is the syllabus ? Do they go beyond 
plain sewing and clothes making ? — It mostly con- 
sists of drill. There is a great deal of that kind of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 483 

thing in the sewing instruction in these days. The Rev. 
But I do not know very much about it personally ; eTw^e^ 1 
it is only what I hear spoken of by the teachers. Buiwer. 

3055. And music? — Music they learn very j u i y 21, 1908. 
thoroughly, and, of course, the natives enjoy being 
musical. It is all the tonic sol fa songs and sight 
singing and tests of all kinds. It is very thorough, 

but it takes a great deal of time. 

3056. Could not that time be more profitably 
occupied? — I think singing is overdone, but the 
children do not think so, because they like it. 

3057. What becomes of these boys when they 
go home. .Do they improve their homes at all 
after they leave school ? — Oh. yes, a great deal. A 
good many boys are the sons of heathen people, 
and they bring a great influence to bear to improve 
their homes. 

3058. That is in Pondoland and Tembuland ? — 
Yes. 

3059. Mr. de Kock.~] The training they receive in 
the mission schools has a decidedly advantageous 
effect on the people on returning to their homes ? 
— Yes, we think so ; we hope so, at any rate. 

3060. You do not knoAv that . for certain ?■ — We 
know it for certain in this way, that even if they 
do not proceed further in education we keep a 
hold on such children who have received such 
instruction in our local schools, and they become 
civilized even if they are not educated. 

3061. The present education up to Standard VI. 
you consider to be quite sufficient for all purposes 
in the Transkei, I understood you to say ? — At 
present. 

3062. So that the higher education they are 
clamouring for is not necessary at present ? — Per- 
sonally, I do not see any demand for it in my work. 

3063. Are your schools subject to regular inspec- 
tion, or are they surprise visits ? — They have annual 
inspections. 

3064. Not surprise visits ? — Surprise visits, yes. 

3065. What effect have these surprise visits upon 
the pupils ? — I do not think it affects them at all. 
There is no inspection then. 



484 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3066. It does not inspire terror ? — That would be 

Ed^hiEaVi more in the teacher than in the children, especially 

Buiwer. jf y^ school is near the main road, where the 

July 21, loos, inspector can drop on the school at any time. It 

has a very good moral effect. 

3067. You think it is a good thing to have the- 
surprise visits and they should not be done away 
with? — Yes, I think it is an excellent arrangement. 

3068. Are there any white children in the native 
schools ?— We had a few at Umtata, though very 
few, but none since the establishment of the school 
board. 

3069. There are none now ? — No. 

3070. Do you think it is desirable for the white 
children to be in the same school as the natives? — 
I should not approve of it at all. 

3071. That is to say, you would rather the two 
races did not intermingle ? — Yes, from the point 
of view of the white children. 

3072. Do you think the fact of teaching English 
only is eventually going to have a tendency to dis- 
regarding any tongue but English in their own 
territory ? — They are the only tongues which the 
natives are at all concerned with in the Native 
Territories. 

3073. They have a native press, have they not ? 
— Not in the Territories. 

3074. They have a newspaper circulating in the 
Territories ? — Yes. 

3075- Are these always printed in their own 
language ? — Both English and Kafir, and one 
paper had Sesuto, but I think it has been dropped.. 
That was the Izwi. 

3076. This native press has a very marked influ- 
ence on the people in the Territory as regards 
influencing their thoughts and ideas ? — Yes, it has 
an influence, undoubtedly. 

3077. And do you think it is to their advantage ? 
— It widens their outlook. They get news through 
the medium of the newspaper that they would 
not get in other ways. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 485 

3078. But it also has the effect of leading them c ^ e ^^ 
ii)to a different trend of thought, has it not ? — To eXLe^-i 
think for themselves ? Buiwer. 

3079. The press has the effect of leading them j u i y 21,190s. 
into a, different trend of thought to the intentions 

of those running in the press ? — Do you mean with 
regard to political views ? 

3079a. Yes ; and views generally. I will 
give an instance. Is it likely to prejudice 
them against movements set on foot by the 
Government for their advantage, because of the 
native press taking an antagonistic view ? — I am 
sure the press has that effect. They follow their 
newspapers very much. 

3080. Mr. Levey.'] Very much depends on the 
character of the editor ? — Well, the newspapers' 
views are verv pronounced. 

3081. Mr. de KocL] They really follow their 
press because they know it is being run by black- 
hands, so to speak ? — I should not sav that. 

3082. You do not think it has that effect ?— No. 

3083. Is it not also because the}^ think the}^ 
should support their own people that they do sup- 
port this native press? — I think they buy the 
Kafir newspapers because they are printed in their 
own language, and not necessarily with any idea 
of supporting their own people. 

3084. By giving them this higher education that 
they are clamouring for, say eventually in the next 
10 or 20 years, in the Transkei, what is going to be 
the ultimate effect on the mind of the natives there 
— that the white men must stand aside and leave 
them alone to work out their own salvation ? — I 
do not think so. I hope it will lead to a closer 
union between the races and not to exclusion. 

3085. What do you mean by closer union ? — 
They would work together in great harmony. I 
<iio not look to education to sever the races, but to 
bring them closer together. 

3086. You do not think it will mean that the 
result is going to be that they will regard them- 
selves as masters of the position, and make the 



486 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 

Canon^T'ii w ^^ e man's life in this country irksome to him 
Edwfn Eai and intolerable ? — I do not think so. I am not of 

Buiwer. that opinion at all. 
July 21, 1908. 3087. Of course the natives are increasing very 
much more than the whites in this country ? — I 
think so as long as there is polygamy. 

3088. Is there any increase of that ? — It i& 
decreasing. 

3089. Do you think it is desirable the teachers 
should be entirely black in black schools, or that 
there should be black as well as white, or white 
only ? — I have heard few instances of European 
teachers in native schools, as such, and I dc not 
think it is a very good thing. I would rather see 
native teachers in native schools. 

3090. You think they would be in a better posi- 
tion to teach the children ? — Certainly, especially 
as we approve of teaching being through the native 
language. 

3091. Only for that reason ? — As far as Standard 
III. 

3092. And beyond that? — Beyond that there 
should be instruction in English. 

3093. By white teachers? — By native teachers 
up to Standard Y. and not beyond. 

3094. Then any teaching beyond Standard Y. 
should be by white teachers ?— By white teachers. 

3095. Do you notice in the case of natives who 
have received education in the schools in the 
Transkei and other parts of the Colony, and have 
started in business on their own, whether they 
have been financial successes ? — I have known of 
no natives in the Transkei who are working on 
their own. 

3096. You have not come in contact with any 
natives who carry on businesses of their own ? — 
Every native man is his own master in his own 
kraal. 

3097. I mean to carry on mercantile business as 
traders, say ? — No ; I know of none. There are 
some carpenters, but they do very small business. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 487 

Wednesday, 22nd July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 

Mr. JAGGEE (Acting Chairman). 

Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Mr. Levey. 
Mr. Murray. 
Mr. T. Searle 



The Reverend David Duncan Stormont, M.A., B.D., 
L.C.P.. LL.B., examined. 

3098. Colonel Stanford.'] Yon are the Principal T ^£ v - 
of the institution at Blythswood ? — Yes. Duncan 

3099. What experience have you had in this ^^ 
country ? — I have been engaged in native work l.c.p., llb. 
now for about 18 years — especially in educational T . ~ lortQ 

1 r\ji -ri it " • -it Jul ? 22 ^ 1908 - 

work. Or course I have had experience m church 
mission work also. 

3100. At what other stations have you been ? — 
I have been in Lovedale as principal teacher for 
ten years, and have had charge for some time of 
one of the Lovedale congregations, called the 
Native Congregation, during part of that time. 

3101. You were at Lovedale during part of the 
time of Dr. Stewart's work there ? — Yes, 1 was 
with Dr. Stewart. 

3102. How was this institution at Blythswood 
founded ? — It is somewhat difficult to discover the 
real origin of the place, but I think that, generally 
speaking, the following facts are made out. First 
the Fingos asked Captain Blyth and Mr. Boss 

3103. Captain Blyth then being Chief magis- 
trate ? — Yes. They asked Captain Blyth and Mr. 
Boss to provide f acuities for the higher educa- 
tion of their children, and after that Dr. 
Stewart came up and organized the institution. 
The original idea, I believe, came from Mr. Boss 
and Captain Blyth, but the carrying out of the 
idea fell upon the shoulders of the three men who 
were the founders, and the organization educa- 
tionally fell, of course, to Dr. Stewart. I believe 



488 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T Da^d V ' ^ nese were ^ ne facts which can be substantiated. 
Duncan These things took place about the year 1875. 
MA rm B n D 3104 - Tne Fingos subscribed largely towards the 
L.dpi; ll.b. buildings ? — They subscribed towards one of the 
July 22^ 1908 buildings. Originally they subscribed, I should 
' say, about one-half of the cost of the main build- 
ing, but, of course, to-day there is a large number 
of buildings they have nothing to do with. 

3105. What would be about the half cost they 
furnished ? — I should fancy about £4,000. 

3106. As to the cost of the latter buildings, how 
has the money been provided ? — In various ways 
—by enterprize on the part of the missionaries 
and by grants from the Church committees. If 
you take the contributions of the natives to be 
£4,000. the Church, by its committees and the 
enterprize of the missionaries, has contributed 
about £16,000 for the present apparatus — that is, 
the buildings. 

3107. Which is the Church that has supplied 
these funds through its committees ? — What is 
now known as the United Free Church of Scotland. 

3108. What system of control have you? — What 
I understand by your question regarding cdntrol 
is, what part have certain bodies in the manage- 
ment thereof, and what control have they over the 
administrative body of the place ? I shall answer 
that question. First of all, the United Free Church 
of Scotland takes virtually all responsibility for 
linance. and the property being theirs and this 
responsibility being theirs, they take the power of 
appoioting the head, and give him a comparatively 
free hand in choosing his staff. Generally speak- 
ing, they recommend someone to the head and to 
those who locally advise him, and usually he 
accepts their recommendation. The control they 
have, therefore, is that they have the property 
control, and they have the appointment of the 
headship and the appointment, or recommenda- 
tion, of the subordinate staff. That is the first 
control. The same control comes from the Edu- 
cation Department. They have a voice in the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 4H9 

decision with the local authorities — with the head The Rev. 
of the institution and a small executive board in DuiSm 
the Ely ths wood Institution. The Education De- ^^d' 
partment have the final decision as to the appoint- l.c'.p'.', ll.b. 
ment of teachers and of anyone to whom they give Jul — 190g 
a grant. The third control is a purely local con- 
trol, namely, a native committee. That originally 
was the magistrates, with certain natives of the 
district, but practically to-day it is one magistrate 
of one district and a number of headmen — some 13 
in all. But the control they have is not financial, 
nor is it administrative ; it is really advisory, since 
they represent the boys and girls that come from 
the district. The fourth control is the executive 
body, which consists of the head of the institution 
with those w T ho have been appointed from Home, 
that is those who have been directly appointed by 
the United Free Church of Scotland, whose* 
salaries have been guaranteed by that Church, 
and whose qualifications are university or 
theological. At the same time, this executive 
board has the power of associating with 
it the heads of departments into which the insti- 
tution is arranged. Now, to answer your first 
question ; as I understand it, it is as to how these 
three first press on the fourth. 

3109. I was about to say this is rather compli- 
cated, but how do you find it works ? — It works 
perfectly smoothly. There is an executive board, 
which carries on all the work of the place. It 
may be three or it may be five, and on their 
shoulders falls all responsibility, financial, moral, 
educational and everything else, and thev are 
guided by the Church at Home, by the Education 
Department, and by the sentiment of the native 
committee. 

3110. The property is vested in the trustees of 
the United Free Church ? — The trustees of the 
United Free Church of Scotland. 

5111. What number of pupils have you now in 
the institution ?— I have here the table that was 
supplied to the Education Department for the last 



490 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T ^ e R ev. quarter. These numbers are reduced owing to 

Dimcan special local circumstances compared with what 

ma^Td ^ey are usua Hy- To take the schools in order, 

l.c.p'^ LL.B. we have 104 boys and girls in the elementary 

July ~ 1908 school, or "C" as they call it; 25 in the "C" 

industrial — that is, carpenters; 12 in the " C " 

industrial, girls ; and 152 in the " C 1." or pupil 

teachers. The numbers in all the schools— the 

apprentices and the elementary schools — have sunk 

this year, 

3112. Mr. Jagger.] Why is that ? — Local circum- 
stances. The boys have gone off to work, and also 
the girls. 

3113. Are the natives badly off ; is that the 
reason ? —Not in that district. Then again in the 
case of the '•' G" school an elementary school was 
opened about 2\ miles from us, and took away a 
goodly number of our pupils. That hit the ele- 
mentary school, 1 think the pupil teachers are 
10 down. We were 160 last year. The apprentices 
are 3 down, and the girls 4 down. That, in com- 
parison with what we had about 4 years ago, is 
about 100 down altogether. 

3114. Mr. van Root/.] Has the general financial 
depression anything to do with it ? — Two things 
brought our numbers down : First, the station 
schools began to teach Standards Y. and YI. The 
result is, many of our boarders, who numbered be- 
tween 70 and 80, did not come for those standards, 
but stayed at home, and consequently, instead of 80 
boarders, we have 17 in Standards Y and YI. The 
opening of the station school cut down the number 
there. Then the opening of a district school near 
us for little children cut us down again. But 
though we were cut down like that, we flew up in 
the normal department — that is, the pupil teachers 
— from 59 six years ago to 160 last year. So while 
we were cut out in one way we were elevating in 
another, but the average is below what it was five 
years ago. 

3115. Colonel Stanford.^ Do these students for 
the normal course come as daily students? — No; 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 491 

they mostly board with us. There are 139 boarders T ^ e a ^ v - 
— 64 girls and 75 boys— out of 150. These are Dimcan 
averages. m^bd, 

3116. What does it cost these students ? — Accord- l.c.p.'. l'l.b. 
ing to our syllabus, we charge £12 a year for all July ~ 1908 
boarders, for everything. 

3117. Does that include the industrial training ? 
— They are not apprentices. They receive wood- 
work instruction. It includes everything they 
get — food, education, religious instruction and 
technical instruction, which is woodwork. 

3118. Do you find on that amount you come 
out ? — Certainly not. The Church, of course, steps 
in, bearing financial responsibility, and assists, and 
then the Education Department assists according 
to a certain scale, and that is all. 

3119. Then I presume you get grants also from 
the District Council ? — Not for this school ; that 
is distinctly excluded. I have applied for grants, 
but they say they will have nothing to do with 
pupil teachers. I may say this is one of my 
grievances. 

3120. That is the General Council ?— Yes. The 
General Council wall not assist at all in the educa- 
tion of pupil teachers, although we send back the 
teachers to teach all the native schools. 

3121. "What are your arrangements in respect of 
the apprentices ? — The arrangement is if any boy 
comes to the place he must be indentured for six 
months trial. The second arrangement is he must 
pay £5, which £5 is restored to him in tools. 
Thirdly, for his w r ork as an apprentice he w T ill 
receive his board and education for really 2\ hours 
a day, together with a salary after the first six 
months beginning at Is. 6d. and ending at 10s. a 
month. He receives everything for nothing and a 
small salary at the end of the month, his £5 being 
given to him in tools. 

3122. There is a certain value, I suppose, in the 
work he does after a while ? — If we had appren- 
tices always in the fourth year we would make 
money, but the first two years are run at a great 



492 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T i> e ST ^ oss ' an( ^ ^ e wn °l e business altogether is run at a 
Duncan very severe loss to the finances of the place. 
MA rm BD- 3123. What is the paying work which they do in 
Lc.p.- l'l.b. the third and fourth years ? — Running up build- 
July ~ 1908 ings and making furniture and things which are 
' useful, and not simply things that are being used 
for training them. 

3124. Is there a demand locally amongst the 
native people for the services of these students or 
journeymen as they become afterwards? — The 
answer to that is this, that I have looked into the 
affairs of 40 that were sent out in a certain number 
of years, and I find that in every case they were 
working, except one, at trades, making 4s. 6d. a 
day. This man's family circumstances kept him 
from going to towns or to work amongst his own 
people, and he was staying on his own farm, as he 
was the only son apparently. 

3125. Where are they chiefly employed — in the 
locations or elsewhere ? — All round the country. 
Some of these 40 were in the Orange River Colony 
and some in Johannesburg. 

3126. Were they working as journeymen ? — Yes. 
One or two had begun on their own account, and 
if we were to believe their own statement, they 

,were making rather a good thing, because they 
were not only working as journeymen but doing 
several other things in the places where they lived, 
and making far more than 5s. a day. 

3127. Looking to the future, what prospect do 
you see before these students you are training ? — 
Industrially ? 

3128. Yes ? — One hopes they will return and 
work amongst the native people themselves and 
work, as some are doing, for traders, and if the 
natives demand, as they do demand, furniture of 
all kinds, employment will be given to those boys 
by the traders who supply the capital, and done 
by themselves if they have the capital, and in this 
way I think amongst their own people they have 
a fair prospect. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 493 

3129. Then your view is that as the people in the T ^ e Bw- 
mass advance in civilization their increasing wants Dumlan 
will lead to occupation for those who are trained ^T^bd 
at institutions such as yours in trades? — Yes. Let l.c'.p':, ll.'b. 
us take one example. The traders supply doors Jul ~ 1908 
for huts, and you can get them from America, but 
instead of getting these American doors, which I 
believe you use in the towns, they prefer to come 

to us and get our boys to make doors at the season 
when they are building the nuts and thatching 
them, and that is a trade which goes on steadily. 
The traders sometimes take a boy we have trained 
and he makes the doors, and of course their profit 
is greater, or they send to us and give us an order 
sometimes for 24 doors or more and sell them in a 
district such as the district we are in. It is the 
same with boxes and with dressers and so on. If 
you cut them out then you will have imported 
stuff, because the European tradesmen do not do 
that work so much as house work, in which there 
is more profit. 

3130. What timber do you use for these articles ? 
— Baltic timber — ceiling boards, etc. 

3131. No South African ? — Not for that, except 
perhaps the posts of the door, for which we use 
the hardwood that we get in the Transkei. Of 
course we use a good deal of the Transkeian 
mahogany for various things, such as tools, but we 
do not use it for doors ; it is too hard to work. 

3132. A fear is sometimes expressed that these 
industrially trained youths — tradesmen — are going 
to come largely into competition with Europeans 
in this country. What is your view ? — First of all. 
I think from my knowledge of workmen in 
Britain that if a European workman cannot r 
thiough his skill and his better training, work any 
dav aoainst five of these men there is not much in 
him. because our European workman who puts his, 
conscience into his work — of course such is the 
difficulty — wall any day compete with three, four 
and five of these men. So far as my experience 
lies. I can say this, no matter how you train a 



494 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T o e R -T' na ti ye tradesman unless you supervise him and 

Duncan keep at him you will get very little out of him. 

m*a "b d' ^° su PP 0Srn g there was competition between the 

l.c.p!' LL.B. black and the white, the white could easily com- 

Jui 22 1908 P e ^ e w ^th the black unless the market was simply 

' glutted with black labour, and consequently, of 

course, wages would go down enormously. But 

to keep the present wage, to keep the native as he 

is at present, and to keep him not very strictly 

supervised — that is the expensive item in the 

whole business— means he will not be a tremendous 

opposing force to the European tradesman who 

puts his conscience into his work. 

3133. As time goes on, do you not look for 
improvement in the native mechanic in respect of 
application and intelligence ? — Yes, I expect that, 
but at present the type we get is not the type 
which begins on a high scale of education and not 
the type which seeks to be improved without 
being forced to it. The native tradesman of 
to-day, in my experience, has not been at all 
equal to the boys of the Fourth Standard in the 
native schools. 

3134. Admitting, for the sake of argument, in 
the future the native tradesmen would come into 
competition with the European tradesmen, do you 
think any good would be done by denying them 
this instruction you are giving them ? — They will 
not see any loss, judging from their present 
attitude towards trades. They will not feel any- 
thing has been taken away from them — as a body, 
that is ; an individual here and there may think 
you are doing an injustice, but so far as we are 
concerned, working under the present system, they 
will never say that they have lost anything, 
because in the first place there are very few people 
involved. Though there have been very few 
people involved, the rest have shown no determi- 
nation at all to come forward to be trained. It is 
with the utmost difficulty we get the ones we have 
to remain. I turned up the statistics printed in 
the Education Gazette here, and I find the appren- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 495 

tices amongst natives indentured for four years The Rev. 
amount to 274. Koughly, 70 a year are sent out to Duncan 
the labour market. I, speaking from experience, ^ t A rm g 1 ^' 
say it is with the utmost difficulty we can get l.c'.p!' ll.b. 
these men to remain apprenticed for four years. Jul ~ 1908 
They are off the first year if they can get to make 
boxes, because they think the whole of carpentry 
and joinery consists of making boxes, owing to the 
demand for boxes. So when you ask the question 
whether it is not taking away a privilege, I say 
these people do not use the privilege. They think 
it is I who am making money as a manager. They 
have an idea they are obliging us by coming. The 
fact of the matter is if you ask whether they will 
feel the loss, I say they will not feel the loss 
any more than they would if you took political 
power from them. You will get men who 
will have no responsibility, and have never felt 
the difficulty of administration, saying you are 
taking away a great boon and privilege. It is a 
privilege they will not take. 

3135. Mr. Jagger.] Is that the reason you pay 
them in the first year ? — Yes. You must remember 
they cost us an enormous amount. The Trans- 
keian General Council has come in, as a public 
bod} 7 , to try to show us how to do this in another 
way, in a way I rejoice at, knowing that the loss 
will fall on the taxation and not on the poor 
missionary. The result is, according to their state- 
ments, each pupil costs from £30 to £40 a year of 
local taxation — of loss. I say I rejoice in this 
because it lets the natives know that the missionary 
must have been running the apprentices at a great 
loss. 

3136. Mr. Level/,] Each pupil costs that ? — It 
costs more. 

3137. Colonel Stanford.'] You are aware at the 
last sitting the Transkeian General Council passed 
a resolution advising the adoption of the same 
system as in the institutions, recognising that their 
methods have failed ? — Exactly. You have the 
statistics here. They run up to £43 loss, and they 



496 MINUTES or EVIDENCE taken before the 

The Kev. have made desperate efforts to bring them down, 
DuiTcan and have brought them down to £34 15s. 
ma^bd ^ ne y ear was £53 lis. and another year 
l.c'.p!' ll.b. £45. I quote from their proceedings. This is 
Jul 22 1908 ^ oss ^° ^e community. The missionary has had 
" loss, but he has been more liberal — with all respect 
to the precedent of the General Council — because 
he has given them education and religious instruc- 
tion. With all that I think the missionary may be 
credited with having lost a great deal of money for 
the training of these apprentices and, to crown 
all, it is not a boon according to them. You ask 
if they will feel it a loss. Well, honestly, they do 
not feel it a boon. Understand there are only 274 
people involved, and it is with the utmost diffi- 
culty we get them to stay, the reason being, I 
think, that the educated community do not see 
the value of being a skilled artizan. They do not 
see that labour is a paying thing. Consequently, 
we v have to begin with boys at the Third Standard. 
3138. When you turn from the apprentices to the 
normal course what do you find ? — We find there 
we get the better intellects and we get the boys of 
stronger character. We get boys who have some 
ambitions in life, with intelligence, who, if they 
are driven and trained hard, themselves go out 
and train others, but if dealt with slackly they 
deal with others slackly. We have boys and girls 
— girls in particular — who are exceedingly anxious 
to get higher education to go back to earn money, 
but we find the same thing happening with them 
as with apprentices so far as the continuation of a 
course of training is concerned. We find that 
many begin but few end, and the reason of that is 
that the £12 fee strikes in, and as they can be 
employed after the first year crowds leave at the 
end of the first year. For instance according to 
the statistics of Blythswood there are 42 in the 
second year, and 24 in the third year, and there 
are 152 in the first year. We begin with 90 and 
end with 24. The reason of that is the money 
gives out. Well, to try to encourage them, the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 497 

financial department in Blythswood refunded The Rev. 
£6 for the third year, but even with that they Duncan 
are not going forward. Now I think the General ^ rm g^' 
Council should come in and subsidise in the second l.c'.p" l'l.b. 
and third year, taking over part of the fees, T , rr lnAO 
and thus give them a chance of going on 
and reaching the final stage of their education, 
because when you consider the fewness 
of the trained teachers — only about 33 per cent, of 
fully trained teachers amongst the natives — you 
can see you are paying an enormous sum of money 
for native education to those who are not well 
trained and are simply makeshifts. You are 
spending thousands of pounds on native education 
for salaries to teachers, and only 33 per cent, of 
those receiving this money have gone through the 
training and are competent to teach from the 
A.B.C. up to the Fifth or Sixth Standards, and a 
very great mass of the troubles arising in elemen- 
tary education arise from the fact that you are 
dealing with uneducated teachers who do not 
know what they are to do. Now the Government 
assist the institutions for the second and third 
years, proceeding on the principle that they give 
a grant for one-third of the number of the normal 
department, and we in Blythswood, as I say, made 
such financial arrangements that we remitted £6 
to all who reached the third year, and in one year 
we remitted the whole of the £12, but of course 
that is an institution subsidized by a Church, and 
you must remember we have to give an account 
of the methods in which we spend the Church 
quota, because the Church do not recognize any 
responsibility in certain work which we carry on 
and which is done at our own risk. I think I am 
right in saying that public attention was drawn 
to the fact that at the death of Dr. Stewart all 
trades were at the risk of the people in charge and 
only education was the risk of the Church. We 
have to be very careful in using the funds supplied 
by the Church. I think the people who are getting 
the benefits ought to try to benefit their own 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. II 



498 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. children, especially in the second and third years 
Duncan when they are getting really a good education 

mT^d wn * cn w ^l fit them for afterlife and at the same 
l.c.p.! l'l.b. time provide the country with* properly trained 
t -i 99 ions Tjeacners. 

3139. I suppose the great increase in schools in 
the Transkeian Territories leading to such a great 
demand for teachers is the reason they leave you 
at such an early age ? — Yes. They always get a 
school. No matter how low the salary is, the 
native teacher cannot see towards to-morrow. He 
takes £18 to-day and three years afterwards is use- 
less, whereas if he finished he would have a chance 
of going up to £75 within four years of leaving 
and he is losing that chance if he leaves. 

3140. Is not that due to a large extent to the fact 
that the parents are not well off and it is a struggle 
to pay the fees ? — That is the point, but since the 
teachers are so few — again, you can get statistics 
from Dr. Stewart's report — it would not be a big 
burden on the community for a few years until we 
produced a completely educated class, because as 
soon as you have a completely educated class of 
teachers you will find those who are to replace 
that educated class will have to be educated up to 
the same level, otherwise they will not get the 
positions. It is only for a few years. If you 
could do this for a few years you would find the 
expense later on would not be so grave, because the 
demand would not be so great. 

3141. Have you placed before the General Coun- 
cil the suggestion of yours that it should come to 
the aid of the students leaving too soon ? — I put it 
in another form by asking for a grant for my 
teachers, whereby I could refund in bursary form 
— as I intended doing — the necessary moneys on 
the boys and girls. They could refund us the £12 
or subsidize us directly. 

3142. What reply did you receive ? — They replied, 
u We will not touch higher education institutions." 

3143. Is not that due to the fact that the Trans- 
keian General Council is now so largely contribut- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 499 

ing towards the educational requirements of the The Rev. 
Territories that it is finding itself cramped in re- D^ncfn 
spect of other duties devolving upon it ? — I do not stormont, 
think so, because I think I am right in saying that l.c'.p.", ll.b. 
they have a large sum in the bank, saved from the Jul — 1%8 
taxation of the country, at present. If you take u y 
the number of boys and girls in the institutions 
and multiply it by £6 each, you will be astonished 
to see how small an amount it is. If you take the 
second year I suppose it would be about £1,400. 

3144. What is your medium of instruction? — 
The medium throughout the whole school is 
English, with the translation in the first two 
standards or so and translation in the advanced 
classes to ' see that they can do it. 

3145. Are you satisfied with that, or do you 
suggest any change ? — I am perfectly satisfied 
with that, and the only deputation I ever had 
from the natives about our medium of instruction 
at Ely ths wood took a curious form. They said, 
• c You are not giving us enough English." They 
see the value of English, and they realize that the 
sooner they begin English the better, especially 
since so many of their children-— indeed, 80 per 
cent, of their children — leave the school when 
they have reached the Third Standard. 

3146. Mr. van Rooy.] Does English prove any 
good to them ? — Up to then ? Yes, because it 
enables them to deal with the traders and to go to 
Johannesburg to work, and altogether for them 
English is a business ; it is not literary culture. 

3147. Are you satisfied that under }^our present 
system the native boys and girls learn sufficient of 
their own language ? — Not grammatically. They 
learn to read and write it, but they do not do it 
grammatically. The grammar has been a good 
deal ignored. 

3148. You do not give them any lessons in their 
own language for the purpose of learning it ? — 
Yes. Just because of the weakness in grammar 
our advanced classes get lectures weekly on Kafir 
grammar, and of course we send them in for 



500 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T rj ^d Y * examrna tion a ^ the Cape here, that being an- extra 
Duncan subject instead of some other subject, such as 
m^Td' L^ 11 ? "which is, of course, useless for them at their 
l.c'.p'.',,ll.b. present stage of development. 

July 22 1908 31 49. You carry out the syllabus of the Educa- 
' tion Department ?— Yes. 

3150. Do you suggest any changes in connection 
with that ? — If you come to the teachers, I think 
for practical purposes — this is not a principle, but 
a practical thing — the examination of Kafir ought 
to be just like an examination of Dutch or French 
or German. It ought to extend over three years ; 
and in this way I think the literary force of the 
language will be taught better than it is at the 
present time, because to only spend one year on 
grammar and writing is too much with the other 
subjects they have. Of course this would necessi- 
tate the dropping of one subject in the first and 
second year. That would throw out some subject, 
and the question would be. of course, w T hat subject 
would it throw out. 

3151. As to such subjects as history and geo- 
graphy ? — That has all been in English, although 
we make the bigger fellows teaching the Fourth 
and Fifth Standards do so in Kafir if 
necessary. There comes a necessity of having a 
teacher educated. If you allow these teachers to 
teach Standards Y. and YI. they must be qualified. 
Of course our teachers are university people, or 
highly trained natives, and can explain very easily. 
The translation is a recognized force in the First 
and Second Standards and a recognized force in* 
the work generally, and finally a compulsory thing 
in the final classes. 

3152. Colonel Stanford.'] To what inspections are 
you subject ? — We have, of course, the inspection 
of the "C" school by the district inspector, the "C" 
industrial boys by the inspector of the Education 
Department in woodwork, the " C " girls industrial 
inspection by the lady inspectors and the "CT' 
inspection both by the district inspector, the 
special inspector for training schools and for the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 501 

examinations of the Education Department. I T ^ e Re- 
think we have about six inspections coming round DumLa 
early — for woodwork, music, needlework, general stormo^, 
work, training, and finally the examinations. l.c'.p.', ll.'b. 

3153. Have you any comments to offer on these Jul ~ 1908 
inspections ? — No. I think the inspectors, as far 

as I have met them, are very greatly interested in 
their work and try to assist us as much as 
possible, and guide us as much as possible, and 
they help us much in pressing the better pupils 
out of the station schools into the institution 
for teachers. I think their interests are our 
interests and the pupils' interests. Then as 
regards the method of inspection, it seems to me 
that the inspectors are too few for the amount of 
work that they have to get done — that they have 
too many schools to examine in the time at their 
disposal. If you just look at the list here you 
will find that the inspectors are kept every day 
examining a new school except a few days when they 
have to pay what you call informal surprise visits. 
Here is one district where a man has 165 schools. 
Now. there are 40 weeks in the year and there are 
live days a week, so that is 200 .days in which he 
has to visit 165 schools. If he has to travel a bit 
you can see the other days are taken up in travel- 
ling. Now he gets through his work, and he may 
do it excellently, but I do not think he will do it 
so effectively as if he spent a long time seeing the 
teachers teach, seeing their methods and getting 
into the depth of things. I say this because we 
find that boys may pass an e » animation in the 
station school and when they come to the institu- 
tions they are exactly one standard behind the 
tests that are applied in the institutions. 

3154. Mr. J agger.] That is very general. We 
find that is so in every school ? — I think that is 
due to saddling the inspectors with too much work. 

3155. Here we find a boy may pass a standard 
in a second class school, and on being transferred 
to a first-class school he will not do so well ? — I 
mean if he has more time the inspector will press 
more, whereas at present he has not time. 



502 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3156. We have had it pointed out that these 

David 



Duncan teachers are harassed by the inspectors and they 
are in fear and trembling of his coming round ? — 
You can feel that he must be harassed too, because 
he has so much to do. He is not able to retain 



' that gentleness of method that is necessary in the 
work, because he is so hurried. He gets up early 
in the morning and travels for two or three hours* 
to a school and does his work in four or five hours,, 
and he makes the merit of a school in that time. 
He is an expert certainly, but I think the methods 
become rather mechanical. 

3157. Colonel Stanford.'] Your pupils go from 
standard to standard on the decision of the in- 
spector ? — Yes. 

3158. It has been suggested to the Committee 
that greater discretionary power in the schools 
should be given to the teachers to advance pupils 
irrespective of the inspections. What is your 
view ? — I do not think you have got to that stage 
yet, because I do not think the majority of the 
teachers are competent to decide, and I do not 
think that we have reached the stage of general 
education where that system — which is the Scotch 
system — should be permitted. I think if you 
adopt such a system you will find trouble with 
the parents, because if a boy is advanced by the 
teacher from one standard to another, the parents r 
whose boys are not advanced, will have conferences 
with the schoolmasters, and there will be trouble 
amongst the natives in particular, because every- 
body is on a level so far as a standard is concerned. 
That comes where a country like Scotland has 
been driven educationally by different systems 
for centuries, and not amongst the people where 
they are only levelling out. 

3159. Of course, you are aware that the curricu- 
lum followed in the native schools is the same as 
in European schools ? — Yes. 

3160. What is your view there ? — I think it is 
not carried out completely in native schools, 
because they have not sufficient facilities. It seems 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 503 

to me they have not sufficient apparatus to carry The Rev. 
it out. In certain things, like drawing, they have Duncan 
very very few facilities, and consequently, although jST 121 ^' 
the curriculum is there exactly the same, the l.c'.p!| l'l.b. 
moral and intellectual effect of that curriculum Jul ~ 1908 
on the native mind is not the same. 

3161. Do you suggest any change in this respect 
as regards the native schools? — Not in the syllabus. 
I would rather see the change in the way of having 
the apparatus, and more money spent by the 
District Council as help to the teachers, but of 
course I fall back on the old argument again — 
that there are so many teachers who could not use 
the apparatus. The real element in the situation 
is not the course of training ; the real element is 
the quality of the trainer, and I do not think the 
local authorities are sufficiently aware of the fact 
that the educators are really the people they 
should tackle at the present time. Whenever you 
get a better trained batch of boys and girls who 
know how to use the apparatus, you will find when 
they go back better education and less grievance, 
because they will be in the hands of an educated 
community, whereas at present in the districts 
where the best teachers should be — that is, in the 
first three standards — you have none but uncerti- 
ficated teachers. 

3162. You have a considerable extent of land at 
Bly thswood suitable for cultivation ?— Yes. 

3163. And your cultivation assists you in your 
financial troubles ? — That is what I am going to 
discover when I return. Hitherto I have been 
expending considerably in fencing and stock. I 
think we have sunk about £2,000, and it is prema- 
ture to say if we are going to get back interest and 
so on on this capital ; so I prefer to say I really 
cannot say whether we will make a profit or not r 
but I hope to. 

3164. Have you used these lands in any way to 
assist you in training the native students ? — Yes. 
Those boys go out to help to reap and bundle and 
also fencing. Some wanted to be instructed in 



504 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. fencing so that they might do their farm lands and 

Dm7can keep down expenses. Then of course they make 

m a 1 ™ 1 ])' roa ^ s ? an d- generally speaking, they are continu- 

l.c'.p.'' l'l.b. all}" in the fields. But I think that that at pre- 

jui 22 1908 sen ^ * s a m i s ^ R ke, and I will tell you why. Our 

c " aim is to produce an educated class for the schools, 

and if you divert their attention, except for health 

purposes, to this manual labour you will find you 

will not push them so much intellectually. Just 

fancy the students of the Normal College in Cape 

Town, on being told at 3 o'clock, "This afternoon 

we must all turn out to the Breakwater, or some 

other place, to do manual labour for a couple of 

hours," and exactly the same thing must be fancied 

by us, but there use and want induce those people 

to shoulder a spade and show how fields should be 

cultivated. 

3165. M)\ Jagger.] You say the aim of the insti- 
tution is to produce teachers ? — Yes. 

3166. But you go out of your way to produce 
tradesmen ? — Those are apprentices ; they are 
working all the day through. I am speaking of 
the pupil teachers who go out and look after the 
ground and work three hours on Saturday. 

3167. Colonel Stanford. ~\ Then these teachers go 
back to the mass, and 1 suppose you recognize 
for the mass the future lies in agriculture ? — Yes. 
I recognize that, and that is one of the reasons we 
press it so much, although it reacts upon our 
literary work, and we will never give in to a boy 
who says, " I am not lit to go to the fields." We 
just tell him he must leave the place. I take up 
the attitude in the matter that all those doing 
the literary course must take manual labour. 
But, mark you, it cripples us in preparing for 
literary examinations, and they themselves, 
seeing that they have not the same chance 
of competing in examinations with others in 
other institutions without this work, are inclined 
to growl a little bit, and my answer to them is that 
they must go away. It is rather severe on the boys. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 505 

In the six years I have only had one case where T ^e Rev. 
this was pressed that they would not do work. DuiSm 

3168. Looking hack upon your experience and ^"^ 
your work amongst these people, what is the view l.c'p., l'l.b. 
you have formed as to its success — as to its better- JuI ~ iy08 
ment of them as citizens or otherwise ? — I think 
on the whole the boys who have passed through 
my hands and through the institutions in which I 
have been have been a credit to society, receiving 
information from those who have employed them 
and valuing what they have said and what I have 
seen myself. "We have produced some who have 
not manifested gr^at intellectual powers but mani- 
fested great political acumen and given some 
trouble to the country, but these have been special 
ones who have devoted their minds in a direction 
not encouraged by us : but, generally speaking, I 
think their education has been well utilized. On 
the other hand, there has been one element that 
has always kept them down for many ages, and 
that is their own surroundings — their life, their 
character, their environment. You will go to an 
institution and you will see the boys and girls 
there tidy, bright, smart— as smart as you will get 
in European schools in the Cape. You will see 
workmen under discipline, just as careful in their 
work as I have seen the white man in Europe. 
But let them go home, and you see them going 
back more rapidly than you would expect they 
would. Even the political cry signifies something. 
It signifies that they are beginning to be dissatis- 
fied with their surroundings, and it has value 
in that direction. They are beginning to be 
aware their surroundings are keeping them 
down, and if you go amongst the surround- 
ings, no matter what part of their life you 
take — whether it be the moral or the intellec- 
tual or the sanitary — you find the tendency is 
down from the ideals of the institutions. That 
is what I have found I must honestly confess, and 
I have been somew T hat naturally saddened. The 
question is, how are you to elevate the surround- 



506 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T D e vd V * m & s ? That is a matter, so far as I can see, of 
Dimcan economy, and though they have great wealth they 

MA m BB ^° no ^ see ^ na ^ ^ e surroun dings require the wealth 

lc'p'.', ll.b. put into them. They prefer to put it in moveables 

July 22, 1908 rather than immoveables, and the result is their 

' hut and general life has remained much the same 

as 18 or 20 years ago. 

3169. Mr. Jagger.~] Would that be so? — I am 
speaking from my experience. 

3170. Would not you say in your own neigh- 
bourhood the Kafirs have improved so far as huts 
are concerned ? — They have improved, but not so 
far as they have improved educationally and can 
do in institutional life. 

3171. Will not they come knocking about the 
country seeking for work and the like ? — I am not 
very sure of that, because finance stands in the way. 

3172. You said a lot have money ? — But they 
will not put it just in these directions ; they will 
not sink their money in that particular way. 

3173. Even the educated ones ? — Yes. The sug- 
gestion has been made that they should start a 
building society, but it has only been a suggestion 
and it has been in front of them for 5 or 6 years. 
Their wealth really lies in cattle, and they prefer 
to sink their money in that. 

3174. Rather than in buildings ? — Yes. How- 
ever, as Colonel Stanford said, they are now getting 
title to the land, and that may change their cir- 
cumstances somewhat in the future ; at least, I 
hope so. 

3175. Mr. Levey.] The object of educating these 
people, 1 presume, is to give them such education 
as will fit them for the future to obtain a liveli- 
hood ? — That is one of the objects. 

3176. Do you not think agricultural training is 
one of the most important parts of their education ? 
— Yes, I should think so. 

3177. Of course you have known the Fingos for 
a long time. Can you notice any real improve- 
ment in Fingoland in agriculture in the last 30 
years ? — I have noticed since I have been up there 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 507 

there has been an improvement ; that has mainly The Rev. 
been through competition, and not training. iw'an 

3178. What kind of improvement ? — Improved ^"g 1 ^' 
methods of ploughing. Tnere are more ploughs l!cj\! l'l.b. 
now in Fingoland than there were 10 vears ago. T . — 1ftAQ 

o-i rrr\ t ,i j tot n •* p t?. Juty 22, 1908. 

3179. Is that general ? — 1 am speaking ot Imgo- 
land. They have more ploughs there, because 
they are beginning to take object lessons. I believe, 
even from Blythswood institution, which has only 
recently started farming. They are beginning to 
see the value of new methods in agriculture, but 
it is the experiment they want to see, and they 
want to see the results before tackling it them- 
selves. 

3180. Many of the Fingos came from the farmers 
in the Colony originally, and they learnt to plough 
well and plant trees ; 30 or 40 years ago they 
planted trees in FiDgoland ? — Yes. 

3181. Do you not think it is very desirable 
teachers should pass an examination in agriculture 
or arboriculture, the same as in Germany and 
France ? — As a matter of fact they are training in 
some of the institutions and they know how to do 
these things. 

3182. Do you not think it should be compulsory, 
the same as in France ? — If you are prepared to 
look after the finance, I say by all means train 
them and make it compulsory. 

3183. Do you not think it would be good to have 
a separate institution or farm where teachers 
could go and take six months after passing their 
ordinary examinations, and let that be a very 
important part of their examination — where they 
could get teaching from a practical teacher, so as 
to enable them to impart it to the pupils in the 
locations ? — If you start it separately you take • 
away the corporate life of the natives, which they 
love. You will cause greater expense than cen- 
tralizing the classes in our present institutions, 
and at the same time you will not get so many. 

3184. Suppose you have it at the institutions. 
But you do not want to put too much work on 



508 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. the missionaries ? — Of course not. I think the 
Duncan General Council have tried, or are trying, that, and 

Stormont. 
M.A.. B.D., 



I think they have had to face a good number of 



L.c'.p.l ll.b. difficulties. 

t , Z ,n,o 3185. Their idea is good ? — The idea is all right. 

Jtiiy 22 1908 *-* ° 

3186. You were mentioning the pupil teachers. 
What do they get. Do they pay anything for their 
board ? — They pay £12 for everything. 

3187. You mentioned music teachers. Is there 
any absolute necessity for music teachers amongst 
the natives ? — Music is one of the things in which 
the native delights, and I think an inspector of 
music is absolutely necessary, to show the teachers 
how to keep the children up to the mark. 

3188. The natives are naturally musical ?■ — Yes. 
I think the organization of music is a right thing. 

3189. Do you not think it is more desirable they 
should do something more to assist them to earn 
their food at their present stage of civilization ? 
Do you not think there is a danger of attaching 
too much importance to book-learning and 
luxuries like music and not drawing them to the 
true object of earning their bread ? — You must 
realize music only takes about half-an-hour a 
w r eek. 

3190. Mr. ■Jogger.'] What do you teach them ? — 
It is vocal music — school songs. 

3191. Not the pianoforte ?— I\ T o. 

3192. No instrument at all ? — No. It is simply 
teaching singing. If you mean instrumental 
music, the position we have taken up is a very 
easy one. We have done so because the natives 
have a grievance because we have not taught 
instrumental music. We say, " You will get music 
and any subject you like, provided you pay for it 
entirely. There would be no assistance given. If 
you want music you can go to a private individual 
who is a private teacher, and we cannot interfere, 
or you can come to us and pay £8 a year 
for two hour lessons a week." Needless to 
say, the grievance in the case to which 
this remark applies fell most rapidly, and 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 509 

only one out of 50 who had grievances paid the T ^ e p ^ v - 
£8 and got the music with a private teacher. So Dimcan 
that the instrumental question has been solved as j^ rm g ^' 
far as we are concerned. Our principle is that a l.c.p'.'«ll.b. 
native is quite entitled to demand anything he Jnl ~ 1908 
likes. He can ask for Chinese. Greek, Latin 
and eve^thing under the sun, provided he 
pays for it. but if he will not pay for it he will 
not get it. A man wrote me saying he wanted to 
be taught Latin. I said, " Quite so ; 6s. an hour," 
and I heard no more. 

3193. Their object is to get it as cheaply as 
possible ? — We have taken up the other attitude. 
Thev get the course the Government has marked 
out as cheaply as possible, but for anything else 
they must pay. 

3194. Mr. de Kock.] And if they want higher 
education they must pay for it ? — Yes. As to 
whether they should pay individually or through 
taxation I have nothing to say. I do not see why 
they should be encouraged in these other things 
without payment. 

3195. Mr. Jagger.] You do encourage them, as 
a matter of fact. You say yourself you actually 
pay them Is. 6d. a month when they are not even 
worth that, according to your statement ? — Well, 
as I said, that applies only to apprentices, and this 
custom is the second stage of a policy. The first 
policy was to pay them much higher than that in 
order to attract them and train them, but in 1895 
that policy was departed from, and their wages 
were cut down. The next stage in the polic} 7 is 
that we are training them, intellectually and other- 
wise, and are receiving nothing whatever from 
their labour, but then comes the Masters and 
Servants' Act, and we must recognise that, 
because we have to work under it. Supposing 
we wanted a policy to get behind that Act, 
as undoubtedly one would by paying them 
entirely for their labours and cancelling their pay- 
ment by charging it for board, then that would not 
appeal at all to the native as being straight and 



510 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. honest. We have to work under that Act, and so 
Duncan far as we are concerned that gives all the power to 

MA rm B d' ^ ie na ^^ ve ' we are helpless. 

l.c'.p'. 1 , ll..b. 3196. But still you think it would be much 

jui 22 vm. soun der, if you could do it, not to' pay the amount, 

" and treat them as apprentices entirely ? — Yes. 

Treat them as educational apprentices, and not 

under the Masters and Servants' Act. 

3197. You say the other students pay £12 a year 
now ? — Yes. 

3198. Have you much trouble in getting the 
money from them ? — Until, I think, last year we 
have got in the money with some difficulty, but 
we have got it in. I got in £2.200 last year, which 
was only £20 short of all I could get in, and last 
year we got in £1,675 but we are £480 short. I 
suppose that is owing to the depression in the 
country. 

3199 Do you not make them pay in advance ? — 
We do, but sometimes we cannot get it and have 
to trust them. 

3200. You do not get any grant from the General 
Council ? — For the work of none of the depart- 
ments except the " C " or elementary school. That 
is from Sub-Standard A to Standard YI. 

3201. Do they not assist at all in the training 
of teachers ? — They assist nothing whatsoever. They 
say they have nothing to do with anything but 
the station schools. 

3202. Do you get anything from the District 
Council ? — Nothing at all ; it is the same thing. 

3203. If it is a fair question to ask, what does 
your institution cost the Church per annum ? — 
They give me a fixed grant of £950. 

3204. And vou have to do the best with it ? — 
Yes. 

3205. And account for it ? — And account for 
every penny. Then if I have applied for buildings, 
and have to draw an extraordinary building grant, 
as I am going to soon, they give me the money. 

3206. Will you pay interest on that money ? — No. 

3207. It will be a free grant ?— Yes. 



July 22, 1908. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 511 

3208. As to the medium of instruction, of course T ^ e Rev. 
you have seen there has been a certain amount of Duncan 
agitation amongst the natives and amongst a cer- .^a^bd 
tain class of missionaries in favour of making l.c'.p" ll.b. 
Kafir the medium ? — I heard that about two years 
ago. 

3209. What is the origin of that ?— I think one 
of the factors in the origin is the desire to make 
the education equivalent to the qualifications of 
their teachers. The missionaries have had such 
a terrible trouble in getting their teachers 
that they have been simply taking anybody. 
Consequently they say, " We shall use these 
people to educate the pupils in their own 
language." That, of course, is a thing that many 
institutions go against. We do, because we want 
to train teachers to take the place and elevate the 
people, whereas they have cried, " Use the native 
language, because our teachers are so poorly 
trained." 

3210. There is the head of one institution — Love- 
dale — who favours that ? He has spoken publicly 
in favour of it ? — Yes. 

3211. That is so ? — The head of Lovedale is a new- 
comer to this country, and I think he himself will 
recognize that his experience is exceeding limited. 

321^. Of course, that is a matter of opinion. 
What policy did Dr. Stewart follow ? — Exactly 
what we are following — English with translation 
in the first two standards or so, and explanatory 
remarks w r here the English was indefinite by the 
teachers throughout the place. 

3213. You do not go as far as the Third Standard 
with the Kafir language, as Dr. Stewart said in his 
evidence before the Native Aif airs Commission ? — 
No, because if you do that you have 80 per cent, of 
your pupils who are sent to work without a single 
lesson in English, but if you start them with both 
languages you send them out into the labour mar- 
ket with a little knowledge of English. 

3214. Do you think they would develop better 
intellectually by learning through the medium of 



512 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. Kafir than through English ? — The boys who have 

David J 



Duncan studied English longest are always the cutest and 
cleveresl 
the boys 
satisfied. 



^ t ? rm ^' cleverest we have in our institution. Give me all 
l.c'.p;] ll.b. the boys who start English earlv and I will be 



3215. Do not they learn by rote ? It has been 
pointed out to us that youngsters will learn the 
A.B.C., and if you commence from Z., they will 
want to repeat the same again ? — It is due to the 
fact that the teachers are untrained and they 
encourage that, whereas the inspectors necessarily 
try to circumvent that. 

3216. It has been represented to us, further, that 
the system of ours, especially learning so much 
Kafir and English, is more or less a system of 
cram — that they have not time to" absorb this 
teaching ? — That remark may be made with some 
show of justice of all our education, both in Cape 
Colony and in England, and I am more and more 
convinced, after being a year in England just 
recently, that the English system is based entirely 
on what is generally called cram. I am convinced 
more than ever that the whole system of examina- 
tion in England, anyhow, is based on memory 
work and not on acquisition or judgment. 

3217. It has been pointed out here that the 
teachers always have the inspectors before their 
mind from year end to year end, and naturally 
they get into the way of thinking what will please 
the inspector and pass the children ? —Yes. 

3218. Are we any worse oif in this respect than 
in England ? — I do not think so. 

3219. Are we as bad ? — I do not think so. I was 
15 years a teacher in England, and I could some- 
times anticipate the inspector's very questions, 
because I knew his idiosyncrasies and the limits 
of his knowledge. I cannot do that here. I do 
say the system of examination in England, basing 
itself upon memory, lends itself to cramming. 

3220. Have they not class inspection at Home 
and individual inspection here ? — Yes, with the 
result that they are complaining at Home that this 
class inspection is a failure. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 513 

3221. Why? — Because the children, taken in a The Rev. 
mass, find individually they are neglected. If I Duncan 
know every one of my, boys is to be examined my ^ m -^ n £ 
standard is : push the dull forward ; when it is a l.c'.p!,' ll.b 
class inspection: push the cleverer forward and Jul ~ 190g 
leave the dull alone and put them in the back 

seats. 

3222. At any rate, you do not consider in that 
respect we are any worse off than in England ? — 
I do not think so. 

3223. And the fact that English is the medium 
has nothing to do with it ? — It has nothing to do 
with it. The thing that has to do with it is the 
type of teacher you have in your schools ; it is 
not the English. The system of examination that 
is becoming universal is certainly of memory, and 
that leads to cram. Excuse my saying I was once 
a tutor, whose duty it was to cram young men for 
the University examinations. I tried the cramm- 
ing process with natives when I came out here. 
I adopted exactly the tricks of the trade of 
cramming that I knew very expertly at Home, 
and they all broke down. So to say you are 
cramming native boys by these examinations is 
not to interpret my experience. I have considered 
it from another point of view, and I think if you 
remove from the teachers the pressure resulting 
from the prospect of the inspections you will not 
get enough work out of them. 

3224. Do you approve of these informal visits to 
station schools ? — Certainly, to keep these men up 
to the mark and to keep the children at school, 
because the tendency is to keep the children away 
from school and to come late. When the inspector 
is coming they are all there looking up to the big 
man. 

3225. Mr. van Root/.] The teacher's significance 
has gone for the moment ? — Yes. If you remove 
that pressure you will not get work to the same 
extent out of your teachers. 

3226. Mr. T. Searle.] Coming back to the medium 
of instruction, what these people who advocate 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. KK 



514 MINUTES CF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEE THE 

The Rey. having the medium Kafir say is that they want that 

Duncan to be the medium concurrently with English that 

stormont, is, they do not want to eliminate English, but they 

ljc.r', ll.b. want Kafir as the chief medium of instruction in 
— the lower standards. Have you any objection to 

jui y 22, 1908. that ? _- [ tMnk that the difficulty of English with 

the Kafir is so great — that the more English he gets 
in school the better for him, because you realize 
Avhen he gets English in the station school it is 
only during the time he is in school that he gets 
English ? Kafir talk goes on all the time after. If 
he is to benefit later on by higher education I 
think the more English is used in school-time the 
better. 

3227. As a matter of fact, when a child first 
comes to you, knowing nothing at all of English, 
the medium of instruction must necessarily be 
Kafir ? — So it is. He learns the alphabet and many 
other things. He learns the two languages, as it 
were. 

3228. So it seems to me it is more a question of 
the term you use rather than any real difference 
of opinion between the two ? — Perhaps, only I 
would point out that in schools which are sur- 
rounded by Kafir more time should be given to 
English ; in the station schools most of the time 
should be given to English. 

3229. Even in the lower standards ? — Even in 
the lower standards, because it is the lower 
standards where really the basis of all education 
is centred. A person with a very poor training at 
the beginning in the lower standards never recovers 
it later on, and that is one of the points that was 
said about native education — that so much of the 
lower work was in the hands of uneducated 
teachers — girls for instance. 

3230. Do the children passing out of the schools 
know their language sufficiently ? — As I have said, 
they know it to speak and write, but unless they 
have been trained teachers they do not know it 
sufficiently well — the grammar. 

3231. I understood there was no grammar? — 
There is a most elaborate grammar. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 515 

3232. We have been told that the most unedu- T ^ e a ^ v - 
cated adult Kafir speak Kafir perfectly ? — Yes, so Duncan 
do certain persons brought up under certain cir- ]V j t A rm g n p' 
cumstances. They never get the intellectual train- l.c'.p!1 ll.'b. 
ing that the study of grammar will give them. Jul ~ 1908 
But there is a grammar in Kafir. The grammar I 

refer to is the scientific grammar, whereby, 
although a man speaks grammatically, you begin 
to examine him on the principles he has been 
using in his speech. He might be like the man 
who spoke prose for 40 years and did not know it. 
We want him to know it is prose. I will put it 
that the teacher has not been scientifically trained 
in it. 

3233. Do you think the native child is at a dis- 
advantage compared with the European on going to 
school, because his surroundings have been so diffe- 
rent ? — I think so, because the European parent is 
interested in the child and sees its w-ork is done. 
The school becomes part of the life of the 
child, and the parents are interested too, but with 
the native the poor boy comes home from school 
and has to go out and herd, or do some housew r ork, 
and there is not a home atmosphere. Whenever a 
boy reaches the second year of the pupil teachers' 
course, we say " You must come into a native 
institution, otherwise you are hopeless ; you need 
not try an examination." Why do we say so ? 
Because of his surroundings. There is no interest 
in his work. He comes home from school into an 
atmosphere that, of course, is totally bad. 

3234. Do you think sufficient time is given to 
him, as compared with the European child, to pass 
the standards ? — Well, of course, two or three years 
ago I would have said no, but now I would say he 
is getting more time, because he has an hour put 
on a day. and the requirements demanded by the 
inspectors could be fulfilled if the teacher was 
kept up at pressure. And, again, the rule which 
has been applied, namely, that you must have 250 
attendances — which seme of the headmen are very 
much annoyed at — means this, that no native 



516 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ,TAKi£X J EFORE THE 

T rf *?&' c ^^ w ^ P ass &om one standard to another unless 

Duncan he has been 125 days at school ; so that if the rale 

maT d' * s ^ e P^5 anc ^ ^he teachers are watched in the mark- 

l.c'.p!', ll.b. ing, a boy who will not attend a school will be 

July 22 1908 thrown out, and kept back two years. But I 

' think, on the whole, the demands that are made 

can easily be accomplished if the children attend 

the school regularly for the year. 

3235. Then, if he is at such a disadvantage com- 
pared with the European, would not that imply 
the European's time is too long ? — The result of 
the culture on the European mind is somewhat 
different. A European child of six and a native 
child of six, so far as culture is concerned, are 
on different levels, although the native will not 
grant that ; but I say it is so. This is shown when 
a European child of 13 has a culture that a native 
of 25 has not got, mainly due to the surroundings, 
to the interest of the parents and to the mental 
capacity — an inheritance of ages. 

3236. Is there anything in the theory that a native 
child seems to lack capacity for development when 
he gets to a certain age, say about 12 or 13 years ? 
— Well, I examined that question practically many 
years ago, and I have not examined it recently. I 
find your age is wrong, but there is something in 
the theory. The stop in development comes later. 
It may come at 17 ; it may not come till 21. But, 
speaking from my inquiries made practically a 
dozen years ago, I should say when the sexual 
feelings began to be very powerful, especially in 
the men, the moral and intellectual faculties 
degenerate, as we would say, and if the native 
gives way to the sexual feeling he is gone. 

3237. That would apply also to a European ? — 
The surroundings of the European save him from 
collapse, and then I believe the sexual feelings, 
physiologically and psychologically, come later in 
Europeans than natives. 

3238. Mr. Jagger.] You mean the native gives 
way altogether ? — And they come earlier with him . 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 51 7 

3239. Mr. T. Searle.] Ave you in favour of the T ^ e J^ v - 
Inter- State College scheme ? — To answer that Duncan 
question, put in such a form, is rather difficult, stormon^ 
because it opens up so many side issues. If you ask l.c.p.1 ll.'b. 
if the natives should get higher education, I would Jul ~ 1908 
say, " Yes, if they pay for it, either by local taxa- 
tion or by personal fees." I have always urged, 

" Give the native everything he wishes, provided 
he pays for it." 

3240. Do you not think the State should con- 
tribute anything at all ? — That comes in if he pays 
for it. He pays taxation, and then of course he 
will get his quota of that money. But if you ask 
if it is wise to begin higher education to-day, I 
sa} r , " Well, I hesitate and say No ; I think you are 
premature." I think elementary education should 
be driven ahead more and better teachers pro- 
duced, because I do not see where you will get the 
pupils to start higher education, my understanding 
of higher education being professional education. 

3241. Is there not room for an institution where 
they can go after leaving the elementary schools ? 
Of course we realize you cannot start a college 
right away, but, like all other colleges, it would 
really start where the elementary schools left off, 
until in course of time it became a university col- 
lege. Do you not think there is room for an insti- 
tution of that kind ? — I can quite realize there is 
room, but whether a separate institution or not I 
have my doubts about. I wanted five years ago to 
lay the foundation of a higher education depart- 
ment in Elythswood, and made facilities to get out 
a special class of teacher to start that work, because 
I think that the dividing of the work of higher 
education throughout the country has always got 
its value. The centralization of it will make it 
more expensive to the native. I realize that the 
natives should have the higher education— that is, 
those who can profit by it— but as to whether 
many have reached the stage when they will profit, 
statistics will show you, and I do not think there 
are very many yet who have passed Standard 



518 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T Da^d T ' ^ "^ ne n ig ner education in England, for instance, 

Duncan to-day is moving through its teachers being 

m A m B d' associated, with the university. The teachers are 

l.c'.p." ll.b. being drafted into the university, and teaching 

July 22, 1908. a l° n g that line that I think higher education should 

follow — that after boys reach the stage of the third: 

year's teachers' course then facilities should be 

given to continue further. My experience has 

shown that finance has been in the way. 

(At this stage Colonel Stanford left the room, and 
Mr. Jagger took the chair). 

3242. Do you know that several natives have 
sent their sons to England and America to be 
trained ? — Yes ; I know some of the boys. 

3243. Have you seen any of them ? — I met two 
of them yesterday when they returned. I know 
the names of about 100 who have passed over. 

3244. What is your experience of these men 
after they return ? Are they really well educated ? 
— I have not met any. I have only heard of one 
in our district, and he received a degree on such 
cheap terms that that was sufficient to classify him. 

3245. Do you think it is desirable, on general 
grounds, that the natives should go to other coun- 
tries to obtain the education which they cannot 
receive here at present ? — That depends entirely on 
how you look at the matter. If a native is quite 
able to pay for the education of his children in 
other countries, I do not think we can stand in his 
way. I believe they are paying for their education; 
and I suppose the travel and intercourse they gain 
will be an education itself to these people. On the 
other hand, I realize that some may be going 
to places, especially in America, where there are 
strong anti- white feelings. I have read a great 
deal of the literature written by men who are 
strongly anti-white, and I know several of the 
boys have gene to the places that have produced 
such men. That is the only danger that it seems 
to me will arise from contact with men of anti- 
white feelings in such colleges as 1 speak of. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 519 

Then, again, the education received is not at all The Rev. 
on a level in goodness with the education that Duncan 
they could receive here, judging from the cata- ]V ^ t A rm g u ] 5' 
logues of the so-named colleges and universities, l.c'.p^ ll.b. 
The way to discover th^ real value of the educa- Jul 2 7 1908 
tion, apart from the contact with men and things, 
is to consider the subjects, and consider the time 
and consider the ability that those boys have 
shown when they have gone to America. When 
you consider those things you see they have 
received the degrees very cheaply. 

3246. Mr. Jagger.] What we want to get at is 
the effect on these youngsters and the future 
effect on the natives. Is the effect of the inter- 
course abroad good ? — In the case of several I 
know it has been bad, and in the case of others it 
has been nil ; they come back and they have 
forgotten. 

3247. Do they lapse into barbarism ? — No ; they 
go on like ordinary men. 

3248. Then on the whole do you think there is 
no crying need for an institution like the Inter- 
State College at present ? — My point is this, that I 
do not see where you are to get your pupils if you 
are really going to start a college. 

3249. Of course the idea is to start it where the 
elementary schools leave off ? — A high school 
course ? 

3250. That will, in the nature of things, have to 
exist for years ? — We have had a virtual high 
school course going on for years in Lovedale, and 
the difficulty was to get boys to remain, because of 
the finances. Then, again, if I understand the desire 
of those who cry for a college, they are not going 
to be satisfied with a high school course ; they 
want a professional course. 

3251. I understand you to say there is a growing 
dissatisfaction amongst the natives who have 
passed from the schools with their surroundings ? 
— I think so. 

3252. I did not quite understand whether you 
thought that that was a good or bad sign ? — I 



520 MIN1TTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T D e R -7' think ^ is a good thing, because I think it is the 

Duncan first stage in their trying to alter the surroundings, 

ma "b d' or ^ e ^ rs ^ s ^ a » e ^ n diverting some of their wealth 

iug'xZ, LL.B. from cattle and farming to home surroundings. 

July 22 1908 3253. On the whole it is a hopeful sign ? — I 

' believe so. 

3254. Whatever theories we may hold, it 
naturally follows to that extent education is 
benefitting them ? — Certainly. 

3255. Mr. Murray]. You say you know the 
names of some 100 natives who have gone across 
the sea for education ? — Yes. 

3256. And yet you say you do not think there is 
very much demand for higher education ? — I say 
I do not see the pupils coming forward in such 
numbers as to guarantee the starting at present 
of what you call a college. These 100, mark you, 
that I refer to have come from all parts of South 
Africa, and have extended over 15 years, so you 
find it is only 5 or 6 a year. Of course those are 
the ones I know. My argument is that if you 
have 100 going to America in ten years that is 
only 10 demanding higher education. 

3257. Ten that can afford to go to America ? — 
You will get hundreds demanding it, certainly. 

3258. You said the education they get in America 
is not on a level with the education they can 
receive here ? — Yes. 

3259. But. as a matter of fact, they cannot 
receive it here except by the higher schools at 
Lovedale 2 — And the teachers' course. 

3260. Would you shut up all natives to the 
teachers' course only? Would not you open 
professions to them to give fair play ? — Certainly 
open all the professions to them, but let them go 
through the regular course that the Europeans 
adopt here, namely, high school or teachers', and 
let them be put on the same level as professional 
men of the country. 

3261. At all events, you will admit there is room 
for secondary education ? — There is, and we have 
urged that from 1896, so that college education is 
not exactly what you would call this. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 521 

3262. You are aware, of course, that in the Hk> Rev. 
school higher class at Lovedale no grant is received D^an 
from the Government ; it has been carried on purely ^"bd' 
by missionary effort ? — The true answer can only l!c'.p!,' ll.b. 
be supplied from the Education Department or Jvl g 1%8 
from Lovedale direct. In my day. Mr. Lennox, 

who taught in that department, received a grant 
of £40 from the Government ; I think I am correct 
in that; and the Education Department is said 
to have said that they were prepared to increase 
that grant, provided they got the necessary 
results. 

3263. In your view, you would like to see 
secondary education receive Government sanction 
and aid at more than one institution ? — Yes. 

3264. But, as a matter of fact, all the. pupils at 
Blythswood who would ask for this education 
would be boarders, would they not ? — Yes. 

3265. If they have to pay board, the expense of 
boarding at a central institution will not be much 
greater than if you have more than one institu- 
tion ? — I think the cost of the boarding at one 
centre would be greater, because in the other 
centres having more pupils and doing more busi- 
ness the cost will be less at the separate insti- 
tutions. 

3266. Generally speaking, we rind where you 
centralize and get a large number together you 
can do things more cheaply than where you split 
it up and have a few boarders at different institu- 
tions ? — That is so when the numbers are large, 
but at the present time the numbers are very few. 

3267. But when it comes to be a matter of 
boarding I am inclined to say the numbers are 
large ? — For the higher education ? 

3268. It does not matter for what they are work- 
ing ; you are dealing with board, and what they 
are working for does not matter. As long as there 
is a large number of boarders it is cheaper? — 
Certainly ; if you take a big institution and put in 
it extra boarders it is certainly cheaper. 



522 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T Da?idT 3269. You originally considered it was- rather 

Duncan more expensive from the boarders' point of view ? 

ma m B d' — When you take into account education. 

l.c.p'.', ll.b. 3270. I would say, supposing you have at Love- 

Juiy22 1908 ^ a ^ e a ^ P resen ^ 30 wanting secondary education, 

and all over the country you can get, say, 60 more, 

I think you will make better use of your money in 

educating the 90 at one place than giving grants 

for two separate amounts of 30 elsewhere ?— You 

may. 

3271 . Mr. de Kock.] I understand you to say the 
natives, as a whole, are not fit to receive the higher 
education they are clamouring for at the present 
time ? — 80 per cent, are under Standard III. 

3272. For the few who would require it, there 
would not be sufficient to keep such an undertak- 
ing going ? — Not to keep a college going, although 
there would te quite sufficient for a high school. 

3273. Do you think that those who desire this 
higher education do so for the sake of higher edu- 
cation, or is it merely a matter of bread and butter 
and a means of winning important posts in the 
country ?— I should simply say for economic 
reasons. Their intellectual reasons do not apply 
in that, except, perhaps, in the case of some. 

3274. Supposing we gave that higher education, 
and established institutions solely for their benefit 
in this country, what would be the ultimate nett 
result of that education as regards the future of 
this country ? Is it to remain a white man's country? 
— Your supposition is one which I hope will never 
be practicable. I can just say this, that I hope there 
will not be a native university for natives. I hope 
their education will come like the European 
education, under one centralized body, and that 
they will have to pass through exactly the same 
course for professional training as your white man 
has to pass through. I believe there should be one 
course for all, and not separate courses. 

3275. You are not in favour, I take it, of the 
mingling of white and black people in the same 
schools ? — Natural circumstances have to be taken 
into account. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 523 

3276. It is not desirable ? — It is not desirable at The Rev. 
the present stage of development. Duncan 

3277. You do not think it is desirable at any ^torment, 

v jViT A K T~) 

time that they should intermingle in a matter like lxip" ll.'b. 
that ? — No. T . " Qn8 

^„_ f . .,_..__ ttt. • July 22, 1908. 

3278. Mr. Jagger.j You would object m a 
college, would you ? — The white would be kept 
back. 

3279. Mr. de Kock.] Because numbers must tell ? 
— Yes, and the habits and surroundings of the 
natives are so different. I think the time has not 
yet come for that. 



Friday, 24th July, 1908. 



PEESENT : 
Mr. FliEMANTLE (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Jagger. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Koov. 



The Reverend Richard Fraser Hornabrook, ex- 
amined. 

3280. Chairman.'] What position do you hold? The Rev. 
— Governor of the Wesleyan Training Institution, y^e? 

HealdtOWn. Hornabrook. 

3281. How long have you been at Healdtown ? — j n i v 2 7i908. 
This is my thirteenth year. 

3282. Where were you before that ? — Before that 
I was in ordinary circuit work in the Wesleyan 
Methodist Church. 

3283. Are you in touch with other institutions 
of the same kind and those who are carrying on 
educational work amongst the natives? — Yes. I 
am asked to represent the various institutions. 
We have an association, composed of the wardens 
and principals and governors of the institutions in 
the country, and I am asked to represent them. 



524 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3284. You are here as representing not only your 
FrLer own views, but the views of all the principals of 
Homabrook. these institutions ? — Yes. 

July 24, 1908. 3285. That is, not only Wesleyan Institutions, 
but institutions of all denominations ? — All de- 
nominations. 

3286. Have you any criticism to pass on the 
present system of native education? — Do you 
mean as applied to elementary schools, or the 
training of teachers ? 

3287. Have you any criticisms as to the elemen- 
tary course ? — We are of opinion that it would be 
an advantage to use the vernacular as far as 
Standard III. as a medium of instruction, but 
that conversational oral English should be taught 
from the beginning. 

3288. And above Standard III. would you make 
English the medium ? — Yes. 

3289. Would you continue the teaching of Kafir 
above Standard III. or not ? — We are of opinion 
that Kafir should be used and taught in all the 
standards, including the normal department as 
well. 

3290. Do the inspectors understand Kafir suffi- 
ciently to be able to test teaching in Kafir ? — Our 
inspector at Healdtown does — Dr. Rein. 

3291. Do you think it is possible to test teaching 
in Kafir if the inspector does not know Kafir ? — Of 
course it would not be so easy, but it can be done, 
I think, through the native teacher. 

3292. Do you think it can be done efficiently 
when the inspector does not know the language 
himself ? — I should think so. I may explain our 
system with regard to Healdtown has always been 
that we have instructed through the vernacular ; 
in fact in all the standards. 

3293. Even above Standard III.'? — We have 
used the vernacular. What I mean to say is we 
have not excluded the vernacular even above 
Standard III. We have native teachers who have 
been able to explain in the vernacular what has 
not been understood. But we attach great import- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 525 

ance to the teaching of English, even in the The Rev. 
sub- standards . ^Jer 

3294. Have you ever found that the inspectors Homabrook. 
raised any objections to using Kafir for explana- j u iy %i, 1908. 
tion ? — I have never found that. 

3295. Tou are not aware there is any difficulty 
on that score ? — I have heard that objections have 
been made to it, but in order to judge one has to 
be familiar with all the facts. An inspector might 
object to a teacher using Kafir in certain circum- 
stances. He may be wishful to test the knowledge 
of English and not of Kafir. 

3296. You have no reason to suppose that the 
Education Department objects in any way to the 
system which you are actually carrying out at 
Healdtown ?— Not at all. 

3297. Do you think that the present ^system of 
standards is satisfactory for Kafir schools ? — Well, 
on the whole I think so. 

3298. You say "on the whole." Have you any 
criticisms to make against it ? — I think it would 
be an advantage to have the vernacular used more 
in the lower standards. 

3299. But tlie actual arrangement of subjects, 
apart from that, you think is fairly satisfactory ? 
— I think so. 

3300. It has been represented to us that the 
Kafir children are at a disadvantage in comparison 
with European children — that the standards are 
made for European children, and therefore it is 
only possible to get through them with Kafir 
children by cramming. Do you know if that is 
so ? — That has not been my experience. 

3301. You think it is possible to take Kafir 
children through the standards without cramming ? 
— I think so. 

3302. Is the proportion of passes fairly satis- 
factory with you ? — Yes. 

3303. Do you think it would be possible to get 
satisfactory text-books if you were using Kafir ? — 
I think so, if the Department were to offer a bonus 
or something of that kind for suitable books. 



526 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3304. Do j ou think it would be a good plan for 
Fraser the Department to offer a bonus ? — I think it 

Hornabrook. would. 

July u, 1908. 3305. Is the moral and religious teaching in the 
schools satisfactory, as far as your experience goes ? 
— I do not think it is. 

3306. How is that ? — I think it is neglected by 
the native teachers. 

3307. What is the reason for that ?— I think 
partly because it means haif-an-hour extra in the 
day if this instruction has to be given, and I think 
there is a desire on the part of native teachers to 
hurry over anything of that sort, so as to get the 
five hours required by Government in as early as 
possible. 

3308. Do you think the fact that inspectors do 
not examine in religious teaching has anything to 
do with the fact that there is a disposition to 
neglect it ? — I think if the inspectors examined in 
it more importance would be attached to the moral 
and religious instruction. 

3309. You feel it is desirable proper attention 
should be paid to this subject ? — Yes. 

3310. Do you think there is any objection to the 
inspectors examining in it ? — I think it is better for 
the missionary in charge to do it. 

3311. And have you any recommendations to 
make on this subject ? — I think a syllabus for the 
religious instruction in elementary schools might 
be framed. 

3312. Would it be possible to induce the different 
denominations to agree to a syllabus ? — I think so. 

3313. Would you propose that the missionaries 
should then inspect in the subjects or the inspec- 
tors ? — I should think for the present the case 
would be met by the missionaries undertaking the 
work. 

3314. Would not the fact that there was a sylla- 
bus meet the difficulty that there is a disposition 
on the part of the native teachers to hurry through 
this work? — I think it is largely a matter 
of superintendence on the part of the missionary. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 527 

"When I engage a teacher now I require him to ^ e h Re T- 
promise that he will give that time up to this Eraser 
work. Of course, if he understands when he is Homabrook. 
engaged that he has got to do it, he is then more July 24, 190& 
willing to do it. 

3315. I understand you to mean that you feel 
the difficulty can be adequately dealt with by the 
missionaries ? — I think so. 

3316. Is the teaching of hygiene in the schools 
practised at all ? — To a very small extent, I think, 
in the mission schools. 

3317. Do you think it is desirable that it should 
be taught ? — I think so. 

3318. Do you think it is possible ? — Yes. 

3319. Are the teachers capable of giving simple 
teaching in these matters ? — The trained teachers 
are, or should be. They receive the instruction in 
the course in the institutions. 

3320. Would you recommend that teaching 
should be given in this subject in the native 
schools ? — I think it very important. 

3321. Would you advise that that should be 
part of the regular syllabus and made a subject 
for t examination or not ? — I should advise it. 

3322. Do you limit your recommendation to the 
case of native schools ? — No. 

3323. What is done at Healdtown in regard to 
manual instruction? — We have the woodwork 
classes and manual labour in the gardens. 

3324. That appears to be the practice in many 
institutions of the kind — is that not so ? — Yes. 

3325. In the elementary schools is it possible to 
have labour in the gardens ? Are there gardens ? 
— I think there are no gardens. 

3326. Is it not a fact that woodwork is expen- 
sive ? — Yes, it is. 

3327. Are there not some schools in which there 
are no woodwork classes ? — Of course the wood- 
work classes are not found in any but the institu- 
tions ; they are not found in the elementary 
schools. 



528 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3328. In the elementary schools there are no 
Fraser woodwork classes and there is no gardening ? — No. 
Homabrook. 3329. l s anything done for manual instruction ? 
July 24, 1908. — Nothing. 

3330. Is that satisfactory ? — It is not. 

3331. But there is considerable difficulty on the 
subject, is there not ? — Great difficulty. 

3332. Have you am r suggestions to offer ? — I am 
afraid not ; I do not know of anything that would 
be practicable just now. 

3333. It is suggested that, where it is impossible 
to have the instruction in gardening, and so forth, 
it might be advisable to have teaching in brick- 
making and some of the elementary arts of build- 
ing. Do you think that would be practicable ? — 
I do not think so. I think the children are too 
young for that. 

3334. You would admit it is important that edu- 
cation should be given to these ? — Yes. 

3335. Asa matter of fact, in the case of the girls 
something is done in the way of needlework, is it 
not ? — Yes. 

3336. So the girls have an advantage over the 
boys ? — Yes. 

3337. There is a problem there on which you 
have no suggestions to offer ? — Not respecting the 
ordinary native mission schools. The scarcity of 
water makes it very difficult to do anything in 
gardening, and the children who attend our 
mission schools are all below Standard IV. ; they 
none of them are much more than 12 or 14 years 
of age, and when they pass Standard IV. they come 
to the institution. 

3338. Are you acquainted with the working of 
the Council system in the Transkei ? — No, I am 
not in touch with it at all. 

3339. Have you formed any opinion of the 
desirability of introducing that system on this side 
of the Kei ? — Yes. I am strongly of opinion that 
it would be a great advantage to introduce the Act 
as far as the collection of school fees is concerned. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 529 

3340. Have you any committee with which you Th .e Rev. 
consult in regard to the management of Heald- rr as a e r 

tOAVn ? We have. Hornabrook. 

3341. Are there natives on that committee ? — July 24,1908. 
Yes. 

3342. How are they appointed ? — They are 
appointed by our Wesleyan Conference. 

3343. If there were a Council on this side of the 
Kei, would it be possible to get advanced native 
opinion on educational questions by means of that 
Council ? Would it be possible to have an educa- 
tion committee appointed by that Council on 
which the advanced natives would be represented ? 
—I think so. t 

3344. Do you think it would be an advantage ? 
— A sort of advisory committee ? 

3345. Yes ? — Yes, I think it would. 

334G. But you think the chief advantage of intro- 
ducing the system would be the collection of 
school -fees ? — I think so ; it would relieve us very 
much. 

3347. Have you, in your experience, seen any 
reason to suppose that the native mind is incapable 
of advancing beyond a certain stage ? — No. 

3348. You think the opinions which are some- 
times expressed with considerable confidence on 
this subject are not warranted, according to your 
experience ? — I think not. 

3349. In your training institution I believe the 
system of maintenance grants is that grants are 
given to some of the pupils, and not others ; is 
that not so ? — Yes. 

3350. On what principle is the selection made ? 
— The present system is, in our opinion, very 
unsatisfactory. The Superintendent-General of 
Education asks the principals to select the names 
of those who are to receive the grants nominally, 
and these names are sent to Cape Town for 
approval. The grants are attached to certain 
names, but of course they are really used by the 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. ll 



530 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOEB THE 

The Rev. institution for the general benefit. If we had 90 
Fraser pupil teachers, for instance, we used to receive 30 

Hornabrook. orailtS 

July 24, 1908. 3351. Is it always a third ? — It is less now. It 
was a third for some years. Well, that was equi- 
valent to a grant of £4 per head all round. That 
enabled us to take pupils at £12, and by the aid of 
the Government grant of £4 we managed to come 
out. 

3352. Are these grants always given to the 
senior pupils ? — Lately the grants have been con- 
fined to third or second year pupil teachers. 

3353. Do all the third and second year pupil 
teachers get these grants ? — Not all. 

3354. Why are some given grants a«nd not others ? 
— -Well, it is of absolutely no benefit to anyone — I 
mean to say to the boys themselves. 

3355. Can you tell us on what principle the 
selection is made in the third and second year 
pupil teachers ? — We put down, of course, all the 
names that are in the second and third years as 
far as they are required. If we have, say, 40 in 
those two classes and 30 grants are needed, we 
just take them in the order in which they come — 
alphabetical order or something of that kind. 

3356. Are the grants really attached to the in- 
dividuals ? If one of those individuals leaves does 
the grant stop ? — Yes. If a candidate falls out 
during the year through sickness, or there is any 
misconduct and the boy has to be dismissed, the 
grant is withdrawn. 

3357. Are you first told how many grants you 
will get ? Is that the beginning of the process ? — 
At the beginning of each year, yes. 

3358. You feel that that system is unsatisfac- 
tory ? — Yery. 

3359. What system would you propose ? — I think 
it would be fairer for the Government to adopt 
a system which we have recommended to the 
Department. Dr. Muir, of course, is anxious to 
have some inducement held out to these candi- 
dates to continue their course, and that we feel is 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 531 

very desirable ; and we think that grants on a The Rev. 
graduated scale would probably meet the case. Fr C a h S er d 
We look upon it in this way — Homabrook. 

3360. When you say " we " what do you mean ? j u i y 24, 1908. 
— The institutions generally. We look upon it in 

this way that the cost of training a pupil teacher 
is from £16 to £20 a year. It depends partly on 
the situation of the institution and the cost of 
grain, and that kind of thing, but we find, by 
comparing notes, that the average cost is from £16 
to £20 a year. Our conference of governors and 
wardens proposed that in order to meet Dr. Muir's 
wishes w^e should ask that this cost of £16 should 
be shared by the Government, as follows : in the 
first year a grant of £4 should be made, the pupil 
paying £12 ; in the second year, in order to induce 
him to go forward, a grant of £8 should be made 
by the Government, the pupil teacher paying £8 ; 
and in the third year a grant of £12 by the Govern- 
ment, the pupil paying £4. 

3361. What would be the financial effect of that ? 
Would that involve increased cost ? — It would 
involve increased cost to the Government, yes. 

3362. When was this scheme put before the 
Government ? — I am not quite sure, but I think 
about a year ago. 

3363. Do you think it would be an advantage 
supposing a scheme were adopted on these lines 
without increased cost to Government, supposing 
the Government were not able to bear the increased 
expenditure ? — 1 think almost anything would be 
better than the present system. 

3364. The present system involves practical 
difficulties. I understand ?-~It creates a false im- 
presssion in certain quarters. Some of the boys 
think they are entitled to this £12 per annum 
personally. 

3365. Is it a fact that no provision is made for 
secondary education except through the normal 
course? — Except at colleges like Zonnebloem, I 
think. 



532 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3366. The Government gives no grants ?— No. 
Eraser 3367. Is it right that no secondary education 

Homabrook. should be given to the natives except by the nor- 
July 2^ 1908. mal course ? — No, I do not think it is right. 

3368. You think a separate secondary course is 
desirable ? — I think so, yes. 

3369. Would that need be adequately met by 
the institution of the Inter-State Native College ? 
— I should think for the present. 

3370. Have you heard of the alternative scheme 
of the Queen Victoria Memorial College ? — I have 
not heard any particulars of it. 1 heard there was 
such a scheme. 

3371. Do you think there is room for two native 
colleges at the present time ? — No, I should not 
think so. 

3372. Would it be a fair criticism on the scheme 
for the Inter-State Native College to say that it is 
tending to become denominational ? — I think that 
there is a desire to guard against that. 

3373. You think all denominations interested in 
native education will be able to co-operate in this 
scheme ? — I think so. Of course the initial diffi- 
culty is in providing the money for hostels. At 
these times it would be very difficult for Churches 
to do that. 

3374. Is the system of inspection satisfactory to 
you, as the head of an institution ? — Yes. 

3375. You believe in individual inspection ? — 
For our native work I believe in that, yes. 

3376. Do you think it is essential at the present 
time ? — I think so. 

3377. It is sometimes said that the visits of 
special inspectors disturb the ordinary work of the 
school. Is that so ? — There is no doubt it inter- 
feres with our ordinary work. 

3378. Do you think the interference is justified 
by the value of the inspection ? — Yes, I think so. 

3379. You approve of the special inspectors in 
singing, drawing and so forth ? — Oh, yes. 

3380. Do you think the Education Department is 
sufficient! v in touch with the circumstances of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 533 

native education ? — It is rather difficult to say. The Rev. 
As far as my experience goes, I have always found >rS d 
them ready to listen to everything we have to say Homabrook. 
and do their best for us. Ju i y 2^1908. 

3381. You think by means of the inspectors the 
Department is fully acquainted with the circum- 
stances ? — I think so. 

3382. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Speaking of the 
medium of instruction, you said the medium 
should be the vernacular to the Third Standard 
and English taught colloquially ? — Yes. 

3383. What medium would you prefer after the 
Third Standard ?— English. 

3384. Do you think the colloquial use of English 
up to the Third Standard, and such teaching as 
they receive, would generally fit the students to 
pass to the next standard, to be instructed through 
the medium of English ? — I think so. 

3385. You would have English taught from the 
first and not merely colloquially ? — Only oral 
English. 

3386. Not grammatically — not the structure of 
the language? — No. I may say we have been 
accustomed at HeaLdtown to take the two lan- 
guages from the first, and we have found no 
difficulty, but then w r e have competent teachers 
and in many of the native schools the}^ are not 
competent to do that, and that is where the 
difficulty comes in. 

3387. If you had the counsel of perfection you 
would teach in both English and Kafir, if you had 
competent teachers, from the start ? — Yes. 

3388. When you get to the Fourth Standard, and 
a pupil has only a colloquial acquaintance with 
English, it is difficult, perhaps, to make English 
the principal medium of instruction ?— There 
would be in some of the mission schools, I have 
do doubt, where the teacher himself is not very 
familiar with English. 

3389. So at the root of it lies the great necessity 
that your teachers should be trained to teach 
equally well in English and Kafir ? — Yes. 



534 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE. 

The Rer. 3390. If that were so you would not consider 

Fraser jou should put one medium more prominently 

Homabrook. forward than the other when you reach the Fourth 

July 24, 1908. Standard ? You would continue with a kind of 

mixed medium ? — Our idea would be to continue 

the instruction in Kafir — to have a Kafir reader in 

the Fourth, Fifth and Sixth Standards — but let 

the medium of instruction be English. 

3391. In the various institutions you speak for r 
is there any attention paid to training the teachers 
and teaching the children in Dutch ? — None. 

3392. The future lives of these students must, to 
a considrable extent, be in service under agricul- 
tural or pastoral masters. Many of them do go 
into service afterwards ? — Yes. 

3393. And they often have to serve under Dutch- 
speaking masters ? — Yes. 

3394. Is there not something wanting in the 
system in not realizing that this is an equipment 
the pupil ought to have — to know the Dutch lan- 
guage as well as the English ? — In my own neigh- 
bourhood there has never been any demand for 
that. 

3395. Probably not at Healdtown, but these 
people go widely in search of labour ? — Yes. 

3396. There is no provision whatever for any in- 
struction in Dutch — none whatever ? — No. 

3397. As to the standards, do you not think that 
a child knowing only Kafir is handicapped in the 
lower standards and requires more time, on the 
average, than an English child already knowing 
English ? — I do not think so. 

3398. Do you think the same kind of mental 
development is found in the young native coming 
fresh to school that is found in the young- 
European child coming from his home sur- 
roundings ? — Yes. I do not think there is 
much difference. The reason, in my opinion, 
why these children are so long in the lower stand- 
ards is not because they are in any way mentally 
weak, but owing to the irregularity of their 
attendance, and, secondly, to their unwillingness 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 535 

to purchase the books required. I think those are ^. e ^td 
the two things keeping them back. r^ser 

3399. The Kafir's mincl is not so prepared for Hornabrcok. 
learning as the European child's, is it ? — No. juiy 24, 1908. 

3400. There must be difficulty in having the 
instruction in another language to his own ? — Yes. 
I am not favourable to beginning the study of 
English by having an English reader in these sub- 
standards, but we have found by experience that 
it is a distinct advantage to teach English to these 
children. They are taught in the sub- standards 
the names of things in the room and listen to the 
orders in English, and sometimes translate a 
sentence from Kafir into English. 

3401. Does not that show that the standard 
which is appropriate to the average European 
child is likely, in the case of the native child, to 
conduce to a certain amount of cramming in 
order to get through in the same time ? — I do not 
think so. because the European child has not got 
to take the two languages. Of course, the Kafir 
child takes rather more. 

3402. I am taking the same view. He has to 
learn another language in addition. Is he not 
likely to be benefited if the standards for the 
Kafir children are simplified to a certain extent ? 
— Yes, I think so ; in fact, if the vernacular is 
adopted as the medium of instruction generally, 
the standards will have to be modified. 

3403. You said the moral and religious teaching 
is defective. You group them together. I would 
ask you, is there any specific teaching in morals 
apart from the religious teaching in any of the 
institutions or schools ?■ Is the moral teaching 
conveyed simply through the religious teaching ? 
—Yes. 

3404. There is no ethical instruction apart from 
the religious teaching ? — No. 

3405. So when you say the moral and religious 
teaching is defective, that is what you really 
mean to say — that the religious teaching is 
defective, and consequently the moral training is 
not what it should be ? — Yes. 



536 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Richard' 3406. Now you suggested a religious syllabus. 

Fraser Has any attempt been made to bring into con- 

Homabrook. ference the representatives of the different 

July 24, 1908. religious doctrines on the subject of a syllabus 

for natives, that you know of, in South Africa ? — 

I do not know of any effort of that kind. We 

published our own Wesleyan syllabus. 

3407. There has been no combined effort for co- 
operation in this matter of providing a syllabus ? 
—No. 

3408. So it is merely an anticipation or hope 
that you think such a syllabus might be framed 
by co-operation between the different religious 
bodies ? — Yes. 

3409. Do you really think, for instance, the 
English and Eoman Churches would be likely to 
agree to a simple form of religious teaching to be 
given in the schools ? ; — I think it would be well 

. worth while making an effort. 

3410. It has not been made ? — No. 

3411. You know a good deal of good work is 
done amongst the natives and in their manual 
training by the Eoman institutions ? — Yes. 

3412. You do believe manual training is very 
important ? — Yes. 

3413. And you regret, I suppose, that you have 
no practical suggestions to offer ? — Yes. 

3414. The missionary organizations might hold 
a conference on religious and moral training and 

4 hygiene, also manual instruction, and see how that 

worked out ? — It would be a good thing, I think. 

3415. A report from them in combination would 
be of great value to Parliament in its deliberations 
on the subject of native education ? — Yes. 

3416. You do not think the time has come to 
divorce the native education from the missionary 
effort, and make it democratic ? — I think not. 

3417. You would like to see some introduction 
of the democratic principle in the way of com- 
mittees ? — Yes. 

3418. The time has not come to do away with 
the energy of your missionary work ? — No. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 537 

3419. Has not the time come to co-ordinate a The Rev. 
little more than in the past amongst the various i^aSr* 1 
missionaiy bodies, and find a common basis of Homabrook. 
action ? — I think so. j u i y <&, 1908. 

3420. Would that not have a good effect in sim- 
plifying the matter of the contest arising between 
two sects opening schools near to each other in 
competition ? — Quite so. 

3421. As to hygiene, is any specific teaching 
given in that subject at Healdtown? — At present 
it is confined to the normal department. 

3422. You train your teachers in it ? — Yes. 

3423. Those who are going to a teaching life ? — 
Yes. 

3424. But not in the schools? — Not in the 
schools. 

3425. 1 suppose you have not actually thought 
out what teaching of hygiene you would give in 
classes of scholars ? — No, we have not thought 
that out. 

3426. In regard to the training of teachers, do 
you apply the machinery of using a pupil who 
has got to a fairly advanced standard as a kind of 
monitor in teaching the younger classes ? — Yes. 

3427. Is that principle widely used in the insti- 
tutions ? — Yes. 

3428. So you get to know the adaptability and 
faculty of the particular student, so as to push 
him forward ? — That is so. 

3429. So as to know whether he is fit for the 
career ? — Yes. 

3430. Merely learning a good deal of book know- 
ledge will not make a teacher ? — No. We have 
what we call the practising school of about 300. 

3431. Are the practising schools pretty generally 
used in the institutions ? — I think so. 

3432. Now on the subject of the grants, when a 
youth is selected and his name sent in to the 
Department for the £12 grant, does that youth 
know his name is sent in ? — No. 

3433. It is sent to the Department, but he does 
not know as a rule. He knows sometimes, I 



538 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. suppose, that his name has been sent in ?— T doubt 

Fraser whether he does. 

Homabrook. 3434 F rom the Departmental point of view it is 

July 24, 1908. really a contribution to that youth's expenses of 

£12, is not that so ? — That is what Dr. Muir desires. 

3435. A certain pupil is to have £12 towards his 
expenses. Do not you think it must get to be 
known by the pupils themselves that, at any rate, 
that is the system ? Do not you think they know 
that ? — I daresay some of them do. 

3436. And do not you think it gets quite widely 
known amongst tliem ? — It will, ultimately .. 

3437. When they get a copy of the regulations, 
cannot they read and see that it is a £12 grant for 
the individual ? — But we have never recognized 
that. 

3438. I am not asking what you recognize ■;. lam 
simply speaking of a knowledge of the circum- 
stances in the training institutions. The £12 is 
paid for some of them. They know it ? — I do not 
think they know it. 

3439. You said some claimed it was a right they 
had ? — That arises out of another matter, which I 
had, perhaps, better refer to. Lately Dr. Muir has 
been awarding maintenance grants in the native 
schools in Grahamstown, but I do not know how 
man} T — perhaps six or eight pupils who have 
passed the Sixth Standard. These are sent for- 
ward to various institutions, and the £12 is paid 
by the Government on condition that no other 
fees are charged. Well now, a boy coming to us 
from Graham stown in that way would make a 
boast of it that his fees were paid by the Govern- 
ment. The question with many of our teachers, 
and pupils too, is, Why should this boy, who is 
only in the first year, be receiving Government 
help and some of our boys, even in the second year, 
are not receiving any Government help ; there is 
no grant attached to their names at all ? What I 
meant was this, that these boys, speaking in this 
way and telling others their fees are being paid 
by the Government, means the introducing of an 
element of dissatisfaction amongst the others. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 539 

8440. Does not it seem a quite unhealthy ethi- The Rer. 
cal training for the future teacher if he does know F^se? 
that the £12 is paid by the Government as a grant Homabrook. 
for him, but when it has been paid it is utilized in ,j u iy 24, isos. 
general for the benefit of all ? — Yes. 

3441. Is not that calculated to disturb his ideas 
of justice ? — Yes. As I say, I do not think he 
does know it. 

3442. But he may find it out if he is at all 
shrewd ? — Yes. 

3443. Have you ever really found out whether 
they do or do not know a certain number of grants 
are attached to a particular institution and that 
those are attached to the individuals of the insti- 
tution ? — Of course I suppose the committee is 
aware that in Sir Langham Dale's time these 
grants were issued in a different way. When they 
were first introduced they were given to the insti- 
tution, not to the individual, and there is docu- 
mentary evidence to prove that ; I mean the 
correspondence of the Department many years ago. 
Some of the letters are in the possession of certain 
members of our conference w r hich prove that that 
was the rule and that was clearly understood. It 
was a maintenance grant given to the institution 
for the purpose of helping it to train teachers. 

3444. Naturally, proportionate to the number of 
pupils they were training, to some extent? To 
check abuse, it would naturally require to be 
found how much work the institution was doing ? 
— But still it was a much more liberal proportion 
than is given now. For instance, in 1898, when I 
first went to Healdtown there w r ere only 33 boys 
in residence, and I received 25 grants of £12 each. 
Now to-day I have 167 normal students and 
residents, besides 70 girls, and I only get 30 grants 
for the lot. As I say, some years ago I was getting 
25 grants when I had only 33 boarders, and it was 
clearly understood — and this is the point I should 
like to emphasise — that these grants were not 
made to the individuals but to the institution. 
It was a universal rule ; and for some time after 



540 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. Dr. Muir had been in office these grants were 
Fraser issued in the same way. Then Dr. Muir published 
Homabrook. a statement in the Gazette to the effect that 
July 24, 1908. these grants were not being administered as 
they were originally intended. We were very 
much surprised to see this, and a deputation 
waited on Dr. Muir to ask for an explanation, 
and pointing out what a serious reflection 
it was on those who were conducting the affairs in 
these institutions, and then it appeared what Dr. 
Muir meant — that they were not being adminis- 
tered as he really intended, which was a different 
thing. 

3445. Then did this system of second and third 
year pupil teachers' names being sent in arise ? — 
Yes. It was introduced before Dr. Muir put that 
notice in the Gazette. It has been a very long con- 
troversy, which is not settled even now. 

3446. Have you had any answer from Dr. Muir 
with regard to this suggestion made by your con- 
ference of the £4, £8 and £12 scale ?— We have had 
nothing official. Dr. Muir said he would consider 
the matter when he had time to take it up. 

3447. Do you tnink that would be a scheme 
which would be free from the abuse of the existing 
scheme ? — I think so. 

3448. You do recognize that the present scheme 
is abused to a certain extent, if you get £12 for a 
certain individual and the money is devoted to the 
general institution ? — We all agree it is unsatis- 
factory. 

3449. Chairman.) If the grants are devoted to 
the institution and not to the individuals, what is 
the advantage of a sliding scale ? — To cause them 
to go forward. 

3450. M r. W. P. Sehreiner.] He would know in 
the first year he would have to pay £12, in the 
second year £8, and in the third year £4. So 
under that scheme it would really be earmarked 
for his benefit ? — Yes, it would be so. 

3451. Chairman,} Would not the institution 
suffer in consequence of that ? — No ; the institu- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 541 

ticm would not suffer, because the money would The Rev. 
not actually be paid over to the pupil. F^ser 

3452. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] It would be in the Homabrook. 
institution, and an incentive to the student to j u iy 24, 190s. 
know. I suppose you could regulate this matter in a 
disciplinary way to a certain extent, could you not, 

by withholding this in the case of bad conduct, 
communicating, naturally, with the Department ? 
— Oh, yes. 

3453. Colonel Stanford.] Do you require any 
standard of qualification from the students who 
enter your institution or the schools ? — Yes. They 
must have all passed Standard YI. for the insti- 
tution. Do you mean the normal department ? 

3454. In your institution generally ? — No. 

3455. They may enter it at any age and any 
stage of their education ? — Yes. 

3456. Do you find an inclination on the part of 
your pupil teachers to leave too soon ? — Yes. 

3457. Is that largely so ? — It is not very largely 
so. 

3458. You have had a great many years of work 
amongst these people, training students and 
turning them out to pursue their, various avoca- 
tions. Looking back for the whole of your time, 
are you satisfied that the work has been good ? — 
Yes ; I think the work has been very good on the 
whole. 

3459. Have you had opportunities of judging of 
the after careers of your past students ? — Yes. Of 
course there are failures, and will be among all, 
but great numbers of them have done great ser- 
vice. Many of them have entered our ministry 
afterwards. We have to-day in our ministry — of 
our Wesleyan Church, at all events — about 70 boys 
who have been trained at our various institutions. 

3460. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Wesleyan ?— Yes. 

3461. Colonel Stanford.'] Your main idea, hitherto 
has been to train these people to become teachers ? 
—Yes. 

3462. Now, what do you think will have to be 
done as regards the future ? — Are you speaking of 
Healdtown ? 



542 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

r The Rev. 3463. The future training of individual students. 

'" ?rier d A time will come when there will not be such an 

Hornabrook. opening f or them as there is at present in the new 

juiy 24, 1908. schools ? — It will be a long time before we are able 

to supply the schools now existing with qualified 

teachers. There is a very great demand for 

trained teachers. 

3464. Are there not some of them who have 
ambitions in other directions ? — There are. 

3465. Do you think their wishes should be met ? 
— I think so. 

3466. What openings do you think there will be 
for those who desire a career other than that of 
teacher ? — I suppose in the Territories and amongst 
their own people there will be openings, such as 
shopkeepers and law agents. 

3467. Medical men ? — Possibly medical men ; I 
think so. 

3468. You think, then, we have to keep before 
us this prospect of their desire to enter the profes- 
sions and other walks in life ? — Yes. I think, 
taking broad views, and looking ahead 20, 30 or 40 
years, that the best policy for us to pursue is one 
of meeting the natural ambitions of these people 
to that extent, and let them have the education 
they are asking for, if they are prepared to pay 
for it. 

3469. Do you think such a policy will be in the 
best interests of the European as well as of the 
native ? — I think so. 

3470. Why ? — Otherwise, I think there will grow 
up in this country a race of discontented people 
who will in time be a menace to the peace of the 
country. 

3471. On the other hand, is it not said that com- 
petition between the races in respect of these 
avocations will be engendered ? — It is said so, and 
to some extent it is bound to be, I think. 

3472. Y"ou think that competition must be 
faced ? — I think so. 

3473. Mr. Levey.'] Do you think it would be a 
good policy to give the teachers some training in 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 543 

elementary agriculture — to pass a course of, say, r ^ i e h R ^- 
six months in a place like Healdtown or an insti- Eraser 
tution where you have facilities ? — I think it would Homabrook. 
be a very excellent thing if it could be done. j u iy 24,1908. 

3474. You say that the natives who have higher 
education will take positions as medical men and 
lawyers and so on. But are there sufficient open- 
ings for the 100,000 or 200,000 young native men 
who will be educated ? — 1 do not think those 
seeking the higher positions will be very numerous. 

3475. Do you not think it would be a good thing 
if most of the natives were taught the dignity of 
labour more than they are at present — that they 
should be taught that the majority of them must 
earn their bread by manual labour ? — Yes, I 
thoroughly believe in that. 

3476. If these teachers had a course of agri- 
cultural training, they might act as agricultural 
teachers in the locations where they are living ; 
that is, where ground could be provided ? — That 
would be an experiment. 

3477. Some provision would have to be made by 
the Education Department to give a day off for 
that particular work, but do not you think it is 
most important work — the teaching of manual 
labour — not only for natives but whites too ? — I 
think so. 

3478. The system of Government is now to give 
individual tenure to the natives everywhere, and 
by making them contented they would tend to 
become good peasantry and improve their land, 
something on the German system ? — Yes. 

3479. Mr. Murray.'] You say: " We are of 
opinion that the vernacular should be employed 
up to Standard III." Do you speak on behalf of 
the present head teacher of your training institute 
at Healdtown too ? — I do not think I can say I 
speak for him ; I speak for the institutions 
generally. I may say, in answer to that, that that 
is practically done at Healdtown now. 

3480. Are your Healdtown pupils chiefly Kafirs, 
or have you a good many Hottentots ? — We have 



544 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFOKE THE 

TheRev. no Hottentots. We have one who might be 

Erase? described as a Hottentot, but we have principally 

Homabrookt Kafirs, Fingos, Basutos and Zulus. 

juiy 24, 1908. 3481. Are you usually present at the inspection 

of the Healdtown Institute ? — I am in and out. I 

do not attend all the inspection. 

3482. You have a very fair idea of the work 
done at inspection ? — Oh yes. Of course I was 
head master for eight years. 

3483. You think the present system of in- 
dividual inspection works fairly satisfactorily ? — 
I think so. 

3484. Do you think the time has come for 
Government to make grants in aid of secondary 
education for natives ? — Yes. 

3485. That is, past Standard YI. ?— I think it 
has come. 

3486. Do you think there will be a fair demand 
on the part of the natives if provision is made for 
them ? — Yes, I think a fair demand — not a large 
demand. 

3487. Have you any schools under your manage- 
ment which are classified as " C " schools ? — No. 

3488. Could you possibly tell me whether u C" 
schools exist only in the Transkei, or whether they 
exist in the Colony too ? — My impression is they 
are only in the Territories. 

3489. Mr. van Rooy.'] How is the local contri- 
bution towards those schools you are connected 
with paid ? — Yery badly paid in the mission 
schools. 

3490. Do the children pay school fees ? — They 
pay school fees. 

3491. I should say you must necessarily have 
great difficulties every year ? — Every year, yes. 

3492. How do you meet that? — Well in some 
cases, in the mission schools, the teachers lose the 
money. In the institution the Church has to 
come to the help, and make up the deficiency. 

3493. What is the average salary of male native 
teachers in your elementary schools ? — £30 from 
Government and £10 from the people, and in 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 545 

addition to that there is generally a house and The Rev. 

t , • . , , ° * Richard 

land provided. Fraser 

3494. Is that considered a fairly satisfactory Homabrook. 
salary for the teachers ? — It is very small for a July 24, 1908. 
good man. The temptation is for these men to 

look out for something better, and they get better 
offers. Many of them do better financially as 
interpreters and even as policemen, and they 
leave the service for that reason. 

3495. I can understand that for these native 
schools there would be a great anxiety to get more 
support from the State, but considering that, for 
education generally, for this year the State con- 
tributes over £500,000 already, do you not think it 
a very unadvisable step to encourage native 
education in the hope of expecting more liberal 
contribution from the State ? I mean, in m.y 
opinion, the State would be undertaking more 
than it would be able to perform by encouraging 
native education and being more liberal in its 
support. We have a vast number of natives, 
and it seems we are pushing the education 
all we can. Everybody wishes to lift them up, 
and naturally the question arises whether the 
natives themselves should not pay more them- 
selves for the education, because the State is 
financially unable to undertake too great an 
obligation ?— I think, at the same time, it would 
be a very great advantage for the Department to 
put a premium on certificates ; that is to say, a 
man who has a third class teachers' certificate 
should be entitled to a higher grant than an 
uncertificated teacher. At the present time you 
have uncertificated men in some cases getting 
more money from the Government than certi- 
ficated men, and I think it would have a very 
good effect if the teacher felt that on taking his 
certificate he would be entitled to a better salary. 

3496. There are many white people spread about 
your district, I suppose ? — We have a few Euro- 
peans at Healcltown. 

3497. That have children ?— Yes. 

[A. 1— 'OS] Native Education. 3ii£ 



546 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

b^w* 8498* ^° an y °t those white children attend 

Fraser your native schools ? — Not many. . 

Hornabrook. 3499. As regards religion, do you think it 

July 24, 1908. possible that a system of religious teaching can be 

laid down by the different denominations that 

would give general satisfaction to the different 

missionary societies ? — I should hope so. It would 

be quite worth trying. 

3500. Of course the main idea of religious teach- 
ing is the forming of character and giving them a 
moral grasp. In any case the religious teaching 
will not apply so much to the spiritual welfare as 
to the moral training— as a deterrent power against 
doing wrong. What good would religion be, if it is 
to attain that end, if it is practically without any 
principle — any distinct confession of faith ? 
Would such religion be of any effect, really ? — My 
idea in speaking of a syllabus was that it would 
be possible, perhaps, to agree on a syllabus which 
would be acceptable to all the churches, but that 
would not prohibit the missionary, in his capacity 
as manager of that school, going in and giving 
religious instruction and examining upon what 
the teacher has done My idea was to have one 
uniform course throughout, and not to interfere 
with the liberty of the missionary in giving 
religious instruction. 

3501. With the freedom, of course, for all those 
who do not agree to that special confession of 
faith to absent themselves ? — Yes, but I do not 
think that would be a difficulty in native schools 
at present. 

3502. Chairman.'] You said the present system 
of maintenance grants is unsatisfactory, partly, I 
understand, because the grants are attached to 
particular individuals ? — Yes. 

3503. In the new scheme you propose, they 
would also be attached to particular individuals, 
would they not ?— They would, bat there would 
be this difference, that it would not be an arbitrary 
selection, as it is now. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 547 

3504. Then the point is that you do not object to Tlie Rev - 
its being attached to individuals, but }^ou object to ^Ser* 
the principle of the absence of selection ? — Yes, Homabrook. 
and, apart from that, there are reasons why the j u i y 24! 1908. 
grants should be paid direct to the institution and 

not to the individuals. 

3505. To whom are they paid now ? — They are 
paid to the institution now. Dr. Muir has been 
eonsidering our wishes in the matter, and he has 
not enforced his own view. 

3506. His view, as far as you know, would be to 
pay them to the individuals ? — Yes. 

3507. But that has never been carried out ? — No. 

3508. Do you think it is right to sa} r that the 
native teachers now being turned out by the 
institutions are inferior to those who were turned 
out in former days ? — I think they are superior. 

3509. Do you mean intellectually or morally, or 
both ? — I should not say they were superior 
morally, but I think in many cases they are quite 
equal. 

3510. You suggested that there might be a con- 
ference to discuss various matters. Would it be 
as well to submit the syllabus to that conference, 
so that they should report oh any possible 
improvements in the syllabus for native schools ? 
— The present syllabus ? 

3511. Yes ? — I think it would be worth while to 
do that. 

3512. Of whom would you suggest that that 
conference should consist? — I thought you were 
referring to the conference we have already had — 
of governors and wardens. 

3513. I understood you to say you would 
approve of consulting some conference ? — Mr. 
Schreiner asked if it would not be well to bring 
these matters before our conference of governors 
and wardens ? 

3514. You think your conference could consult 
together on those subjects ? — Yes, I think so, but I 
w^ould not limit it to our conference. I think it 
would be desirable to have native representation 
<also. 



548 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Richard 3515. How would you have those appointed ? — 
Frase? It is difficult to say. I think probably we should 

Hornabrook. as k each governor and principal and nominate a 

July 24. 1908. native. 

3516. Do you think that that could be carried 
out by the churches, without entailing expense on 
the Government ? — I doubt that. Of course there 
would be travelling expenses to pay. 

3517. Have you anything further to add ? — I 
think not. 



Tuesday, 28th July, 1908. 



PEESENT : 
Mr. FEEMANTLE (Chairman). 
Mr. Levey. 



Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 
Mr. T. Searle. 



Colonel Stanford. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Eooy. 



Ihe Rev. John Theodore Sonnen, examined. 

Th john V ' 3518 * Chairman.'] What position do you hold ? 
Theodore I am a Curate of St. Mary's Church, Cape Town. 
sonnen. 3519. Have you experience of the natives in this 
July 28, 1908. country ? — I was working for about 15 years with 
natives. 

3520. Where were you working ?— Of those 15 
years. 4 were in Griqualand East, and then in 
Natal. 

3521. Where?— The Umzimkulu district and 
then in the Ladysmith district and Durban in 
Natal. 

3522. You were four years in Cape Colony and 
the rest of the time in Natal ? — Yes. 

3523. With what body were you connected when 
you were working in the Colony ? — I was working 
with the Trappist Mission Society. 

3524. Were you also working with the Trappists. 
in Natal ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 549 

How long ago was it when you were in The Rev. 
Griqualand East ?— I left there in 1901. Theodore 

3526. Did you go to Natal afterwards ? — Yes. sonnen. 

3527. When did you come to St. Mary's ? — About jui y &, 1908. 
two years ago. 

3528. You are thoroughly in touch with the 
Trappists at the present time ? — Not at the present 
time. Of course I am their agent in Cape Town, 
but I have no further connection with the Order. 

3529. Are you familiar with the mission work 
which they are carrying on ? — Y"es. 

3530. Y"ou are still at the present time familiar 
with it ? — Y^es. 

3531. Had you much to do with education during 
the period you were working with them ? — Mostly 
all the time I was there, especially the last four 
years. 

3532. They make a great point of industrial edu- 
cation, I think ? — Yes. 

3533. Could you describe their system of indus- 
trial education in the Trappist Mission ? — Well, of 
course, they train the natives in all different kinds 
of trades ; that is their principal object. The 
moment children come to the schools thev start at 
once. They are taught agricultural work for a 
couple of years, and afterwards the boys learn 
trades, and they keep them from 8 to 14 years 
sometimes. 

3534. Do they do the woodwork in connection 
with the Department ? — Yes. 

3535. And do they find that valuable ? — They 
do, certainly. 

^oS6. Is it not the experience that industrial 
education of this kind is rather costh x ? — Well, you 
have to do something with the natives. We think 
it is a great advantage to teach them that. 

3537. How is the expense met? — These boys 
were employed in the shops and got very small 
wages there. There are not many expenses for the 
Society, and what is made is sold again. 

3538. Then are you able to make these shops 
more or less pay their own way ? — Yes, certainly. 



550 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Th joSi ev ' 3539. And, at the same time, you are giving a 

Theodore satisfactory training to the boys ?— Quite so. 

sonnen. 3540. It is very often said that it is impossible 

July 28, iyo8. to make industrial work of this kind pay for 

itself. How do you account for that? — I quite 

agree in regard to some parts of the Colony. For 

instance, working in Griqualand East with the 

natives it is more difficult to make it pay than at 

the coast in regard to selling things. Furniture can 

be sold easily near the coast, but you would find 

it very difficult being some way up country. Now 

blacksmithing pays up country as well as near the 

coast. 

3541. Do you think it ought to be possible, in a 
general way, to make industrial schools pay for 
themselves ? — Yes. 

3542. Do you get any grants for these in- 
dustrial schools ? — I am not perfectly certain 
whether they do at the present time, but at the 
time I was there they did. 

3543. The grants were necessary to making the 
schools pay for themselves ? — At the time, yes. 

3544. Do you think it is possible to make these 
schools pay for themselves without grants ?— After 
a certain period. 

3545. Did you find the apprentices you turned 
out were satisfactory for their work ? — Very satis- 
factory indeed. 

3546. How would they compare with white 
tradesmen? — As far as I know, we turned out a 
lot of boys as stone-masons who gave very satis- 
factory work in Zululand. They even put up a gaol 
and some nice farmhouses there, and they got 
very decent w r ages. So they must have done their 
work well, or they would not have found employ- 
ment. 

3547. Do you think they would compare favour- 
ably with European tradesmen ? — Certainly. Some 
of them do, absolutely. 

3548. Have you any experience of the w r orking 
of the District Council system in the Transkei ? — 
No. I could not say anything about that. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 551 

3549. Did you have any committees with which The Rev. 
you consulted in managing your missions ? — Only Theodore 
about live years ago in Durban there was a com- sonnen. 
mittee. Juiy2&,i908. 

3550. What did that consist o'f ? — Making in- 
quiries about native affairs, and so on. 

3551. Were there committees in connection with 
your schools ? — Not specially ; there were just 
general committees. 

3552. The management of the schools was left 
entirely in the hands of the missionaries ? — Yes. 

3553. Did the missionaries managing the schools 
consult the people ? — They had to. 

3554. What people did they consult ? — The dis- 
trict in Natal consisted of about 16 missionaries, 
and they had regular' meetings every year, so as to 
have some universal way of dealing with the 
natives. At times they called native chiefs, and 
discussed matters with them. You must not for- 
get most of the Trappists have such tremendous 
properties that they are independent ; they are 
not bound. With one or two exceptions, they do 
not work in locations ; they are mostly their own 
masters on their own farms. 

3555. In the case of the appointment of a teacher, 
do you find it desirable to discuss the matter with 
any of the natives ? — We never do. 

3556. You do not discuss it at all ? — No. 

3557. You do not think it desirable ? — No. 

3558. You do not think the natives have arrived 
at a stage at which they can give advice which is 
valuable ? — As a matter of fact, we never found 
the necessity of asking the natives for it. 

3559. And you found that the natives were quite 
satisfied ? — Quite satisfied. 

3560. What language did you use in teaching 
the children ? — First of all in their own language, 
and afterwards English was used. 

3561. Is English introduced from the first as a 
subject ? — No ; only after a time. 

3562. You do not begin teaching them English 
at all at first ? — No. 



OOZ MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3563. You begin at first entirely in Kafir ? — Yes. 
Theodore 3564. In the higher standards is Kafir the 
sonnen. me cli um f instruction ? — No ; English. 
July 28, 1908. 3565. Is Kafir taught in the higher standards ?— 
Yes. 

3566. Is Kafir taught throughout the whole 
course ? — Yes. 

3567. Do }^ou think that the knowledge of 
English would be better if you began with English 
from the first ? — There is a great difference of 
opinion about that. We have tried both systems, 
and it is very hard to say which is the better, 
though I believe myself education entirely in 
English is better. 

3568. You believe education from the first stan- 
dards is better in English ? — Yes. 

3569. How would it be possible to teach children 
in English when they know no English at all ? — 
Of course 3 r ou will find difficulties in beginning, 
but after a time they get used to it. For instance, 
in Germany you find any amount of patois spoken 
which are absolutely different from the German 
spoken in the schools, but the moment the children 
enter the schools and begin high German they 
start to speak it. 

3570. But the relations between the German 
which is talked in Hanover and the German 
talked in Berlin are very much closer than the 
relations between English and Kafir ? — Some of 
the dialects spoken in Germany, and in other 
countries of Europe as well, are so far apart from 
the standard language that they cannot be under- 
stood by the ordinary educated man. 

3571. Do you believe that Kafir should be taught 
as a language throughout the course ? — No. 

3572. You do not believe Kafir should be taught ? 
—No. 

3573. Is that the general feeling of the Trappists ? 
Of a good many. 

3574. Do you believe it is the opinion of most of 
them ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 553 

§£3575. That Kaiir should not be taught as a Th j e o ^ n ev - 
language ? — You cannot clo without it at the Theodore 
beginning for a time, but in school I am abso- soimen. 
lutely certain this would be the best step to take. j u i y 2s, 1908 

3576. To teach in English from the first and not 
teach Kafir at all ? — Let them have Kafir if they 
like, but they should not be bound to learn it. 
As far as I have found out, natives are very keen 
on learning' English. 

3577. Did you find they were not very keen 011 
learning their own language ?— Yes ; they do not 
care much for it. As a matter of fact, I had a 
native paper for two years, and I could not get 
any subscribers, and had to give it up again. 

3578. You think they prefer reading English 
papers ? — Quite so. Then, again, if you once start 
in one dialect you have about seven different dia- 
lects in South Africa, 

3579. What is your own mother-tongue ? — 
German. 

3580. Are you satisfied with the system of stan- 
dards in the Cape schools ? — I have nothing to say 
against them. I have found the arrangement in 
the Cape Colony better than in Natal. 

3581. You think the subjects are suitable to the 
requirements of the natives ? — Yes. 

3582. The subjects are originally designed for 
Europeans, are they not ? — Yes. 

3583. But you think it is not necessary to have 
any difference made between Europeans and 
natives ? — Why should there be ? 

35^4. It is sometimes suggested that European 
children learn a great deal in their own homes, 
whereas the Kafirs do not learn very much in their 
homes, and therefore the Europeans have a great 
advantage. You do not think that is reflected in 
the power of the Kafirs to go through the stan- 
dards ? — Of course, as a matter of fact, we find it 
everywhere. We find even in Europe a good many 
children who are neglected, and who learn nothing 
• except in school. 



554 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the 

The Rev. 3585. Do you think, despite this, the Kafirs are 
Theodore quite able to go through the European school 
soimen. course ? — Yes. 
July 28, 1908. 3586. Is there moral and religious teaching in 
the schools of the Trappists ? — Yes. 

3587. I suppose that is not examined by in- 
spectors ?— No. They have their own inspectors 
who are responsible for that. 

3588. Is a considerable amount of attention paid 
to this subject in the schools ? — Yes. 

3589. Do you think that is a necessary thing in 
the training of Kafirs ? — Of course ; you could not 
do it otherwise. 

3590. Do you think it would be possible for the 
different denominations to agree sufficiently on 
some form of religious teaching, to enable the 
inspectors to see how the work was being done ? 
■ — You mean some kind of agreement ? 

3591. Yes? — I should not like to decide on that 
question. 

3592. Do you think there might be difficulties ? 
— Yes, I think so. 

3593. But you would not like to say it would be 
impossible to overcome them ? — No ; I think it 
would be possible. 

3594. Is it not a fact that in some schools — I am 
not referring specially to the Trappists' schools— 
this important subject tends to be neglected ? — As 
far as I know, I could not say. 

3595. Is hygiene taught in any way in your 
schools ? — Very little. 

3596. Do you think it would be a good thing if 
it were taught ? — I do not think it would be 
dangerous. I do not think it is necessary. 

3597. You think the natives progress in these 
matters without direct instruction ? — Certainly. 

3598. Do you have teaching in industries in all 
your schools ? — In all the schools except a few 
day schools. In almost every mission station 
there is industrial work. 

3599. That applies to boys as well as girls ? — 
Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 555 

3600. And you say you are able to make this, to The Rev - 
a large extent, pay for itself? — Quite so. In a Theodore 
book I have here, which I will hand in, you can ^onnen. 
see pictures of shops where different trades are juiy 28, 1908: 
carried on by the natives. 

3601. How do you train teachers for your 
schools ? — The training of the native teachers was 
very poor, as a matter of fact, and we had not 
many teachers. I do not think 'we had a dozen 
native teachers at the time I was there. 

3602. Are most of vour teachers Europeans ? — 
Yes. 

3603. That would only be possible in a religious 
order, would it not ? — I do not think so. I think 
it is possible everywhere. 

3604. You think it would be possible in the 
State schools to have European teachers ? — Cer- 
tainly. 

3605. Is not the scale of payment very small ?— 
It is, but you must remember living in the country 
is not expensive. 

3606. Do you think it is better to have European 
than native teachers? — Absolutely. 

3607. You think the attempt to staff these native 
schools of the country with native teachers would 
be a mistake ? — I think so. 

3608. Is there any demand, as far as you know, 
for secondary education among the natives — for 
education above the elementary course ? — Of 
course you always find a certain percentage who 
would like to go in for higher standards. 

3609. Do you provide for that in any way ? — We 
had not much experience. We had a few boys 
sent out to Eome, but I do not think the result 
was satisfactory. 

3610. In what way was it not satisfactory ? — As 
a matter of fact, the first who came out, who was 
a Doctor of Philosophy, went mad a few years 
afterwards. The others did not give that satis- 
faction which was naturally expected. 

3611. Do you think it would be better to give 
what secondary education is required in the 
country ? — I think so. 



556 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Th jo£T' 3612. Do you think the scheme of the Inter- 
Theodore State Native College is likely to meet the need ? — 
sonnen. j think you will find here quite sufficient for what 

July 28, 1908. YOU Want. 

3613. Do you mean they will find sufficient after 
this college is started, or do you mean they have 
enough already ? — As far as I can see, for instance 
in Natal, there is too much for them already. 
You will always find a few exceptions, 

3614. Does that apply to the Cape also ? — Well, 
as a matter of fact, I have not much knowledge 
about the natives here. The only natives I came 
in contact with w^ere those in Griqualand East, and 
they are a very low class of natives. 

3615. Have jou any acquaintance with the 
system of paying grants for native pupil teachers ? 
— All grants paid to the schools are taken over by 
the missionaries. 

3616. Had you native pupil teachers in } T our 
school ? — Yes, but very few, because most of the 
teaching is done by Europeans. 

3617. Had you any special institutions for the 
training of native teachers ? — No. 

3618. Is the system of school inspection satisfac- 
tory to you ? — Yes. 

3619. You have no suggestion to make in regard 
to that ? — Nothing, except with regard to the ex- 
amination of teachers, which I think is absolutely 
insufficient. The examinations the teachers go 
through are not sufficient. I am sure a percentage 
of 50 among the teachers would not pass a stiff 
examination. 

3620. You think 50 per cent, of the teachers are 
not properly educated ? — Yes. 

3621. Does that apply to the Cape Colony natives ? 
— I speak of the natives of N atal. 

3622. Colonel Stanford.] As regards the Cape 
Colony, which includes Griqualand East, would 
you say that the majority of the children attending 
your schools and industrial institutions are chil- 
dren of parents living on ground belonging to the 
Trappists ? — Mostly, yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. DO i 

3623. In the support of these institutions do you The &ev. 
get your supplies largely from the land which you Theodore 

OWn ? YeS. Son^en. 

3624. Do the students and apprentices assist in Jniy 28, 1908. 
the cultivation of the land ? — Yes. 

3625. Is that part of their training ? — Yes. 

3626. Would you say the duration of school- life 
with these children is longer than is found ordi- 
narily at other schools ? — As a matter of fact, we 
always kept them longer at school. We tried to 
keep them as long as possible, in order to make 
them useful members of the community. 

3627. You mentioned just now 8 to 14 years as 
the term of school life ?— Yes. 

3628. How do you secure this term, which is so 
much longer than can be had at ordinary schools 
in the country ? How do you manage to keep the 
children so much longer than we find they are kept 
at other native schools ? — They have to go through 
their schooling for six or seven years, and then 
they join a home and we keep them there — both 
boys and girls — and they are learning trades and 
so on. 

3629. Your power really comes from the fact 
that you are the landlords ? — Yes. 

3630. Who are the instructors of the students in 
industrial work ? — Members of the Society. 

3631. They are unpaid, of coarse ? — Yes. 

3632. Is there any complaint from European 
mechanics and tradesmen that in the sale of 
articles produced by your students you come into 
competition with them ? — Complaints may have 
been made, but I do not think they have any 
cause for complaining, because we always try to 
obtain the same prices as the Europeans. 

3633. Your desire is not to cut down prices ? — 
No. 

3634. What are the trades which you include in 
your training of these native boys? — Practically 
all kinds — blacksmithing, carpentry, saddlery, 
tanning, printing, book-binding, tailoring, paint- 
ing, milling, brick-making, masonry, tin-smithing. 



558 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3635. Mr. Levey.] Oil making and bee-farming? 
Theodore — No. They tried it some years ago, but gave it 

Sonnen. UD. 

July 28. ims. 3636. Colonel Stanford.'] Then in the elementary 
schools you use Sisters of the Order ? — Yes. 

3637. They too, I take it, are unpaid ? — Yes. 

3638. Why do you consider that European 
teachers are preferable to native teachers ? — 
Because, first of all, I think a European teacher is 
better trained than a native teacher, and has better 
manners. He is more energetic in impressing upon 
the natives the necessity of leading better lives. 

3639. Are you training native students as 
teachers ? — Yes, but very few. 

3640. Where do you propose to employ them ? — 
In the day schools mostly. 

3t)41. That is, in those schools which are not so 
much on your own property, but in the location 
reserves ? — Yes. 

3642. Have you admitted any native students to 
priestly orders ? — Yes, four. 

3643. What has been your experience in respect 
of them and their work afterwards ? — As I told 
you, one who first came out about six years ago 
did not give satisfaction. The second one they had 
to shift about, and the last two came out last year 
and I know nothing of them. The first was full 
of degrees. I do not think myself, as far as I 
know, that a native will be sent to Borne again, or 
any place in Europe, for education, as the Church 
authorities do not favour the idea. 

3644. You will prefer in future to give them 
training for higher work in the country ? — Yes, 
but we will not have them as priests for a long 
time to come. This is an experience which was 
found not only in Natal but generally throughout 
Africa. Some time ago I was making inquiries, 
and found the same complaints in Uganda, the 
Soudan and West Africa ; they had not turned out 
satisfactory at all. 

3645. Did their health stand the change of 
climate and hard study there ? — Out of live, one 
died at Borne. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 009 

3646. Have you had opportunity of following the T j e ^ ev - 
after life of these lads whom you train as mech- Theodore 
anics ? — A very good percentage stick to their sonnen. 
trade. juh- 28, 190& 

3647. Are they employed mostly as journeymen ? 
— Yes. 

3648. What special training do you give to the 
girls ? — Basket-making, sewing and those kind of 
things. 

3649. When these girls leave you how do they 
usually marry ? Are they Christianized people, or 
are they taken by their people and married to 
heathens ? — No ; there are very few cases indeed 
of Christian girls being married to heathens. 

3650. Are you finding, as the result of your work, 
the natives generally on your properties are rising 
in the scale of civilization and manner of life or 
not ? — They are, undoubtedly, but very slowly, of 
course. For instance, 25 years ago, when they 
started the mission at Pinetown, there was not one 
building on the whole estate, but now they have 
at least 120 decent buildings. They are becoming- 
civilized, and live in decent places, some actually 
having stone buildings, so it shows there is really 
some progress. 

3651. You are therefore satisfied that your work 
is j ustified by its results ? — Oh, yes. 

3652. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] With regard to the 
native priests, the rule of your Order is a very 
strict rule ? — They do not belong to the Order ; 
they are secular. 

3653. They are not under the strict rule of the 
Trappist Order ?— No. 

3654. You have never admitted that ? — No. 

3655. Even under the more lenient rule of the 
secular priest — or Clerk in Holy Orders — they do 
not serve well as far as you know ? — No. 

3656. But you have no large experience ; you 
have only tried it with four men ? — Yes. 

3657. So far it is not encouraging ? — No. 

3658. Why do you think that is ? Is it because 
they tend to slide back to heathenism, or because 



560 MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. their moral stamina is not strong enough ? — I do 
Theodore not think they can stand the sudden change. 
sonnen. 3659. Does it place them in a false position, as it 
juiy 27, 1908. were ?— Yes. 

3660. You would not say in future years they 
might not be civilized to that extent ? — No. 

3661. But at present you do not think it is a 
practicable question ? — No. 

3662. You take the children into your schools 
very }^oung, I think ? — Some of them. 

3663. Your aim is to get them as young as 
possible while the material is plastic ? — Yes. 

3664. When you get them so young you think it 
would be better to make the medium of instruction 
English throughout, so that they might have a 
European language which would be of more use 
to them ? — Yes. 

3665. You look at it practically ; it would be of 
more use to them ? — Yes. It certainly will be, in 
the whole of South Africa, 

3666. Amongst what tribes is your work mostly 
done ? — The Zulus and the Bacas. 

3667. Do you find the young children are bright 
and readily take an interest in learning ? — They do. 

3668. You do not give them instrumental music ? 
Yes. 

3669. On pianos ?— Yes. 

3670. Do they take that up well ? — Some do. 

3671. Do you give that as part of the course, or 
do you require them to pay specially for it ?— 
Everything is free. 

3672. There is no payment for anything in your 
institution ? — No. 

3673. No native pays anything at all ? — No. 

3674. It is entirely supported by the Order ? — 
Yes. 

3675. Now, do you find an institution like 
Lourdes pays it» way ? — Yes, certainly. 

3675a. Of course, there you have a magnificent 
property ? — Yes. 

3676. And, generally speaking, your aim has 
been to get a fine property which is capable of 
great improvement in itself ? — Yes. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 561 

3677. For instance, at Lourdes you have niagni- The Rev. 
ficent water power, with which you turn a big Theodore 
mill and do all the work necessary on the place ? sonnen. 

YeS. Jnl y 28, 1908. 

3678. You make furniture ?— Yes. 

3679. You have a forest ?— Yes. 

3680. And of course the products of the field are 
ground up there ; and in that way it is a self- 
supporting, self-contained institution ? — Yes. 

3681. Then you have a large population really 
residing in this area, and they pay a good rental, 
so you have a revenue from that quarter ? — Yes. 

3682. The aim of your society is to make each 
institution self-supporting ? — Yes. 

3683. Have you any large annual revenues you 
derive from the Home Mission ? — I do not say 
large revenues, but we have support. 

3684. Of course the capital cost was found free ; 
there is no interest charged on that ? — No. 

3685. So you have the benefit of getting a fine 
area bought by the Mission, and you work on that 
and make it pay for itself ? — Yes. 

:/o8Q* Do you find, after these 25 years, that 
those who were children say 20 years ago and have 
gone out are satisfactory members of the com- 
munity and do good work — those who have passed 
through the different mission schools ? — Of course 
there is always a good percentage who do not give 
any satisfaction at all. 

3687. Is there a good percentage of those ? — Yes. 

3688. Do your boys go in for working in the 
missions ? — Yery few. 

3689. Do they go to the public works, such as 
railway working ? — Yery seldom. 

3690. Do they go to work much under farmers ? 
— I do not think they ever do. 

3691. Do they go into domestic service ? — Yes ; 
that is the thing. 

3692. They are rather chosen for that ? I mean 
people will like to get your trained pupils to go 
into domestic service ? — Quite so. 

[A. 1— "08.] Native Education. NN 



562 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3693. And that is a considerable supply to Natal, 
Theodore I suppose ? — Yes, and Johannesburg ; a good 
sonnen. number go to Johannesburg. 
July 28^ 1908. 3694. Are those who go into domestic service, as 

far as you know, broadly, giving satisfaction ? — 

Yes. 

3695. They are trained and respected, and good 
servants ? — Yes. 

3696. Then they go as journeymen artizans in 
different lines ?— Yes. 

* 3697. Is that a considerable number ? — Yes. 

3698. Where do they do that work ; also in 
Natal ?— Yes. 

3699. With regard to the avocations connected 
with the soil, do you find your system divorces 
the children to a certain extent from farming ? — 
I do not think so. 

3700. Do they go and work as tribal units again ? 
Do they return to the tribes and develop the soil ? 
— Some do. 

3701. Do they become respected and influential 
men amongst their people ? — Oh, yes. 

3702. But actually taking service under the 
farmers is rare ? — That is very rare. For instance, 
at Pinetown the men living on the farms grow 
pine-apples, bananas, guavas, etc., of their own ; I 
mean on the Trappist property. 

3703. You do not find, in your experience, that 
the people you train turn out discontented, because 
of the measure of education you give them ? — No. 

3704. Or vicious ?— No. 

3705. Do you think it improves their moral posi- 
tion as against the red man ? — Absolutely. . 

3706. On the whole, they are better men and less 
likely to commit crimes ? — Yes. 

3707. Or do you think there is any question 
there ? Does the cleverness they get from book- 
learning tend to make any considerable proportion 
of them become criminals ? — As far as I know, I 
do not think so. 

3708. That would be an unfair thing to cast 
against the native — to say that he is as a rule 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 563 

turned into a criminal, as we sometimes hear The Rev. 
people say ? — We noticed that teachers who were Theodore 
discharged became absolutely useless members of sonnen. 
society and real rogues. j u i y 2^ pjos. 

3709. Would these teachers have been trained 
under your institutions ? — No ; they were not. 

3710. Do you have any definite training of 
native teachers in your institute ? — No special 
arrangements. 

3711. The teaching is done by the devoted men 
and women w^ho have given themselves up to the 
Order ? — Yes. 

3712. It is European influence brought to bear 
in an educating way on the minds of the natives ? 
—Yes. 

3713. You are the teachers? — Yes. 

3714. Mr. Levey.'] Do you make agricultural 
teaching a prominent part of your education ? — It 
is always the first we begin with. 

3715. And you look upon that as the most im- 
portant ? — Yes. 

3716. What kind of agricultural training is it ? 
Do they work with the spade, and plant potatoes 
and vegetables and so on ? — Yes,, all that kind of 
thing. 

3717. You say they grow pineapples and ban- 
anas. Do they cultivate them well ? — Very well 
indeed. 

3718. That helps to maintain the people as a 
food ?— Yes. 

3719. Do you think the natives generally on the 
coast could be taught to grow pineapples and ban- 
anas if they had the proper teaching ? — Yes. 

3720. And it would be a very important thing ? 
—Yes. 

3721. Do the teachers under you understand 
agriculture ; do you give them any training in 
agricultural work ? — They all have to go through 
the same course. 

3722. Thev have to work with their own hands ? 
—Yes. 



564 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

TheEev. 3728; Chairman,'] Are those the European* 
iifeodore teachers ? — Native teachers. 

soimen 3724. Have the European teachers any training 

July 28^ iocs, in agriculture ? — They are mostly assistants and 
are not supposed to do that kind of work. 

3725. I suppose you get a good deal of work- out 
of the pupil teachers, and that is how the farms 
pay so well ? — Yes. 

3726. Mr. Levey.'] Do the girls do agricultural 
work as well ? — Yes. 

3727. In the book you have produced I notice 
pictures of girls with spades. What work do they 
do ? — They do work in the fields and gardens and 
vineyards, exactly the same as the boys. 

3728. Have the natives been taught bee-farming ? 
— I do not think there is any profit in it. 

3729. You believe in teaching these people to do 
work that will help them to live in the future ?— 
Quite so. 

3730. Of course they cannot all go to domestic 
service ; they must return to the land ? — Quite so. 

3731. You think it is imperative they should be 
taught to improve the land ? — Yes. 

3732. If they go back not having been taught to 
improve the land they become dangerous ? — Yes. 

3733. Mr. de KocJc] You have told us there is a 
certain percentage of failures and a certain per- 
centage of successes ? — Yes. 

3734. Can you give us the percentages? Can 
you give us some idea of the percentage of 
failures ? — I could not. 

3735. The mission itself is quite a successful 
institution, I understand— self-supporting ? — Yes. 

3736. Is not that largely due to the hard work 
of the Fathers of the Mission ? — Of course. 

3737. They do not get paid for their work ? — No; 
they do not. 

3738. Mr. van Eooi/.] You never attempted to 
get any direct contribution from the parents 
towards the education of their children ? — Some 
years ago there was something mentioned at meet- 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 565 

ings, but I do not think they ever succeeded in Tie Rev. 
getting anything. t£££w 

3739. Did they object to contribute ? — Yes. sonnen. 

3740. On what grounds ? — They thought if they j u i y 28, 1908. 
sent the children it was quite sufficient. You see 

the children work for the mission, and they think 
that pays. 

3741. They reckon the workthe children perform 
is sufficient contribution ? — Quite so. 

3742. Chairman.'] Have you any further point 
which you wish to bring before the Committee ? — 
As a matter of fact, the notice was very short, or I 
would have got some information from Natal. I 
will send in a report on the full question of native 
education. 

3743. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.~] You say you can- 
not give the percentage of successes as against 
failures ; vou have not °ot statistics of that ? — No. 

3744. Are there more successes or failures ? — 
More successes. 

3745. There are more successes than failures, 
without giving the actual figures ? — Yes. 

3746. You think your system produces many 
more successes than failures ? — Yes. 

3747. As regards the failures, are the failures 
worse than they would be if they had not been 
educated ?— I think in many cases they would 
have been better if they had not been educated 
at all. 

3748. Would that be at all an indication of }^our 
evidence, that it is a mistake to endeavour to 
raise them ? — No 

3749. Not at all ?— No. 

3750. On the whole, it works in the direction of 
being a success ? — Yes. 

3751. Upon the point of religious instruction, of 
course yours is definitely an association with the 
Eoman Catholic Faith ? — Yes. 

3752. Therefore it would be difficult, would it 
not, for the Catholic Faith to meet the Non- 
Conformist, say, upon a basis of common doctrine 

o be taught ? — Yes. 



566 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T j e if ev " 3753. Anything of that kind, you would think, 
ThTOdore would probably exclude Catholic co-operation ? — 
sonnen. They may come to some agreement, but it is a very 
July 28, 1908. difficult question. 

3754. The differences are fundamental ? — Yes. 



Thursday, 30th July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. EEEMANTLE (Chairman). 
Colonel Crewe, 



Mr. Jagger, 
Mr. Levey, 
Mr. Murray, 



Mr. "W. P. Schreiner. 
Mr. T. Searle, 
Mr. de Kock, 
Mr. van Eooy. 

Mr. Charles Robert Rennie, M.L.A., examined. 

Mr. Charles 3755. Mr. T. Searle. ~\ You represent Griqualand 
t^nnie, East in the Legislative Assembly ? — Yes. 
mx.a. 3756. You live in Griqualand East ? — Yes, I have 

July 3o ; 1908. lived there for the last 26 years. 

3757. Have you any experience of native schools 
in that district ? — No, I cannot claim to have a 
great deal. Of course, I am living in amongst the 
natives, and I see their schools and see the effect 
of the teachers there, and I also meet a great 
number of missionaries who are interested in the 
schools. 

3758. Are you a farmer ? — Yes. 

3759. What is the view of the farmers with 
regard to our system of education ? — Well, I think 
the general opinion is that it might be greatly 
improved, and I think if you will just let me 
make a statement I can put it to you in that way, 
and then you can ask me questions afterwards. 
There is an increasing class of natives in the towns 
in the up-country districts whom you might term 
loafers. They are half-educated natives who have 
all come more or less from mission stations. They 






SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 567 

seem to have got it into their heads that it is Mr.oharies 
infra dig to work if they have received a smat- Ke°nnie, 
tering of education, and they loaf about these m.l.a. 
towns trying to get billets as clerks and that j u i y scum 
sort of thing, and failing that they degenerate into 
drunken useless loafers. Now I think the farmers 
as a rule think that a great deal more might be 
done by the natives themselves in getting the 
education they want. Now at these mission 
schools you have cases where the natives receive 
their education without any payment whatsoever 
— not even a few shillings a quarter. Well, we 
all feel that a thing got as easily as that is not 
valued as it should be, especially when we look 
back to our ancestors who had themselves to go to 
work to raise money so that they might become 
educated. The form of tuition at these mission 
schools, to cur mind, is not suitable to the native's 
requirements and the position which he is likely 
to fill in life. I think the farmers generally admit 
that natives should receive help from Government 
towards gaining the rudiments of knowledge — the 
three B/s as it is usually termed — because with 
that amount of knowledge they are undoubtedly 
armed the better to work intelligently in any occu- 
pation which they may take up as their life's 
calling. Eut when you go beyond that the feeling- 
is that it should take more technical lines. The 
natives are undoubtedly the natural husbandmen 
of this country, and I think that is a sphere where 
they cannot possibly be ousted and a very fair 
sphere for them to take up in life. Well, we all 
feel that these native missionary schools might be 
worked on different lines, that grants of land 
adjoining the schools might be leased to the school 
committees or missionary bodies with the object 
of being cultivated by the scholars at those schools. 
It would be quite possible for those boys to be 
taught so many hours a clay or so many days a 
week and yet be able by their labour very largely 
to pay for the education which they are receiving, 
and in that way you would establish a lot of use- 



568 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M RoS es * u * men wno W0U1( * no ^ on ly ^ e useful to tnem- 
Rennie, selves but useful to the farmers or tradesmen 
m.l.a. employing them. After, say, the Fourth Standard 

July 30, 1908. I think, as regards the average native, that they 
should pay entirely for any higher education 
which they want, but in conjunction with the 
curriculum up to the Fourth Standard I should 
say give them courses of agricultural education. 
Teach them how to plough and how to plough 
properly, not just scratching the surface. Teach 
them the benefit of sub- soiling, teach them how to 
repair ploughs, how to set ploughs to do their 
work properly, how to sow crops, how to put their 
crops in scientifically, and also teach them such 
things as the rotation of crops. The natives in 
most of these districts go on year in year out 
planting the same crop. There is no idea of the 
necessity of introducing leguminous plants, such 
as beans or peanuts or any of those things, in the 
way the Indians do to bring nitrogen back into 
the soil, and thus recoup the soil for further 
work. Now, I think all these things could be 
taught in conjunction with th« elementary educa- 
tion necessary to them in these mission schools, 
especially as these schools are largely in native 
locations where land can be got immediately 
adjoining the mission of a suitable nature for 
such a purpose. Now, that is looked at purely 
from a farmer's point of view. Of course, there 
are any amount of other things that might be 
taught, I think, such as arboriculture. If there is 
one thing this country wants it is tree-planting, 
and yet if you read the report of the Chief Con- 
servator of Forests you see they find the greatest 
difficulty in getting native servants who are any 
use at all to them in the work that they require of 
them at these forest stations. The}^ have not the 
slightest knowledge of how to go about planting 
trees. Well, I think that is a thing which could 
be taught them at these schools w^ith very great 
advantage to themselves and the schools also, 
because after the timber grew up it could 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 569 

be thinned out . and sold to the natives, M p o c b ^ 1 t les 
and become an asset of the school and help RenSe, 
to meet the expenses which are incurred in MLA - 
the teaching of these natives. Then, of course, j u i y 30, 1908. 
you have the larger subject of the industries. 
There are any amount of industries which also 
could be taught at these schools, such as pottery, 
spinning and weaving, basket- making, carpenter- 
ing, saddlery and bootmaking. I may say at St. 
Outhbert's "Mission School, at Tsolo, I was 
delighted to see the useful work these pupils were 
doing. The boys were being educated as car- 
penters and the girls in spinning and weaving, 
and they were turning out quite a lot of useful 
articles, which would be most beneficial to them 
and the country generally. Of course there is 
another great reason in my mind why natives 
should receive agricultural education very largely, 
and that is the fact that they are becoming so 
cramped in their locations that the amount of 
land available for cultivation is becoming too 
small for the people living in that neighbourhood. 
Well, if they are taught how to till the ground 
properly and to sow properly and keep their 
lands clean, scientifically, they will be able to 
produce two bags of grain on the same ground 
that they produced one bag before ; and this land 
will carry very nearly twice the population it 
does at present. That, to my mind, is a very 
serious thing indeed, because the natives have 
possession of some of the finest agricultural land 
in the country, and instead of pushing that land 
to produce what it is capable of producing they 
are simply scratching it and producing little or 
nothing. Ail these things I think should be 
inculcated into the natives from the earliest stage 
when they are still youths attending these schools. 
The Trappists, to my mind, are doing the best 
work as regards native education. They are 
practically following out the lines I have been 
suggesting. They will not take the children in 
the schools unless they are allowed to keep a hold 



570 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M^charies on them and make them work in the fields. The 
Re°nnie, consequence is that at daylight at the Trappist 
m.l.a. Missions a bell rings and all the children troop 

July 30, 1908. out to the fields, or put in a couple of hours' work, 
before breakfast. In the forenoon or afternoon 
they go out to the fields again. Under such a 
system there would be no State aid required. 
These mission schools, in my opinion, could be 
made self-supporting. I think that is about all I 
can say in the matter. 

3760. Chairman.'] Education has been going on 
for many years in the part of the country which 
you are acquainted with ? — Yes. 

3761. Are there any signs of any improvement at 
all in the methods of agriculture ? — If there are I 
should sa}^ they come from the farmers more than 
from the native schools, because so many natives 
work on the farms and they see the farmers doing 
good work, and they come back home impressed 
with what has been done and try to carry it out 
to a certain extent at their homes. I see them 
adopting the mode of drilling their mealies and 
keeping them clean with a small plough and six- 
foot yoke and couple of oxen. -I think they learn 
that from the farmers, and not from any school. 

3762. Do you think the intelligence they are 
supposed to get in the ordinary education makes 
them quicker at picking up ideas from the 
farmers ? — Yes, I certainly think so. 

3763. So in that way it is perhaps an advantage? 
— Certainly. 

3764. Your idea is that there should be no State 
aid at all, as I understand, above Standard IV. ? — 
Yes, that is so. 

3765. Would not that be felt as an injustice that 
State aid was given to the white people above 
Standard IY. and not to the native children ? — Of 
course, I am not prepared to say. From the 
native point of view they might look upon it as 
an injustice. 

3766. Do you think it is better to have Native 
or European teachers in the schools ? — I should 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 571 

say properly trained Native teachers would Mr. Charles 
answer, but perhaps they might not have the same Rennie, 
moral effect over the pupils as European teachers. M -^ A 

3767. You can hardly have properly trained j u i y 30", 1908, 
native teachers unless you make some provision 

for training them, can you? — No; I do not say 
you could. 

3768. You say there are no fees charged at these 
mission schools ? — Not at all schools, hut in some. 
For instance, the Moravians charge no fees at all 
if the children cannot pay. I suppose they take 
them if they can. I believe that is looked upon 
with great disfavour by the other missions, who 
believe that at any rate every child should pay at 
least a few shillings a quarter. 

3769. Do j 011 think children ought to be made 
to pay fees in Council districts where there is an 
education rate ? — Of course, I really would not 
like to say, because I have no knowledge of the 
Council districts ; I have only knowledge of our 
own district. If there is an education rate I 
presume it falls on the parents. 

3770. If the education rate falls on all the rate- 
payers, do you think that is satisfactory. — Yes. 

3771. As far as you are aware, would it be 
practicable to carry out these suggestions of yours 
in the majority of the schools ? — Yes, in East 
Griqualancl, because of the reason that the land is 
so largely fertile everywhere. 

3772. It has been represented to us that in many 
parts of the Territories the schools are mostly on 
high ground, where there is no agricultural land 
available. Would not that be a difficulty ?— In 
my part of the country the high ground, provided 
it is not stony, grows good crops. On my farm I 
plough on the tops of the ridges as well as in the 
hollows with equally good results. 

3773. Would you be prepared to express an 
opinion as to the practicability of the scheme in 
the Territories generally ? — Of course, where land 
is available. I take it that is the one thing on 
which it all hinges. 



572 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M Robe a rt les 3774; In the case of schools where there is not 

Rennie, suitable land available, would it not be a great 

m.l.a. expense to change the position of the schools and 

July 30,11)08. get fresh land, in order to carry out this scheme ? 

— It undoubtedly would be. 

3775. I suppose you are aware that, as a general 
rule, industrial education is the most expensive of 
all education ? — Yes, I believe so. 

3776. But you feel that that is not necessary ? — 
I think myself that certain districts could be 
utilized for teaching, for instance, woodcraft and 
carpentering. That would be in a district where 
they were near a Government forest, the wood of 
which would be available for use at such a school. 
Of course, in all these forests, as you know, there 
is any number of trees which it is beneficial to 
have removed from the forests. 

3777. Do you think as a rule it is possible to 
induce the children to do work of the kind you 
suggest without bringing very severe discipline to 
bear upon them ? — "Well, of course I can only speak 
for the Trappists. They get them completely in 
charge without any apparent trouble, and I think 
as regards the discipline it would be most bene- 
ficial to the children. The more of that thev have 

• the better. 

3778. I suppose it would be necessary to train 
teachers in order to carry out a scheme of this 
kind — teachers who would be sympathetic with 
the scheme ? — Certainly. 

3779. It would not, therefore, be a very great 
undertaking to get a staff of teachers capable of 
carrying out these . ideas in all native schools ?— I 
daresay it would be so in all native schools. I 
should think such institutions as Lovedale, where 
I understand they go in for industries, would turn 
out a certain percentage of capable teachers, and 
I think myself white teachers could be got in 
some districts who would also be willing to help 
in these matters at small cost. 

3780. Do you think education of this kind would 
be valuable if it was confined to children in the 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 573 

lower standards? — Yes. To my mind, it is the Mr.charies 
whole solution of the difficulty that we will be Ronnie, 
faced with before we are so much older, that is M J^ A - 
having a lot of people not knowing what to do. juiy 30, 1908. 
In this way you have educated them to be useful 
to themselves and to the country. 

3781. The children go to school very early, do 
they not ? — I think so. 

3782. You think it is possible at that early age 
to give this industrial and agricultural education ? 
— f do. 

3783. Y r ou think it is possible to turn them out 
with a sufficient knowledge of these subjects to be 
very useful ? — Yes. Of course once you have 
given the groundwork the rest w T ill come with 
practice. These men hire themselves out to far- 
mers, and then that education will be continued. 
The farmers will be only too pleased to find they 
have youngsters who are already useful. 

3784. Y r ou think if an effort were made to get 
satisfactory teachers and provide the schools with 
satisfactory ground and accommodation, this 
scheme might be carried out with great advan- 
tage ? — I do. 

3785. Mr. Jagger.~] What do the Trappists teach 
there in the way of trades ? — Mostly carpentering, 
wagon-making, boot-making, saddlery and basket- 
making. That is all I have noticed at their 
different places. 

3786. Then agriculturally ? — Agriculturally the 
Trappists just work their farms pretty well in the 
same way as the Europeans of the district do. If 
they have got, as they have in many cases, bushes 
on the farms, they cut down the trees and bring 
them to the mission and cut them into planks, etc., 
and use them, as I said, in wagon-making. They 
go in very largely for tree-planting with this in 
view in years to come, so that they are teaching 
the natives that as well, which to my mind is a very 
essential thing, because if the natives take tree- 
planting up in earnest they will do a great deal to 
restore the rainfall to the country, because the 



574 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE taken before the 

Mr. Charles natives are going to hold large tracts in this 
RenSe, country which will never be open to Europeans ; 
mh?a. i n f ac ^ the natives are already spreading out and 
July so, 1908. taking up all available places in my part of the 
world, so I think myself teaching them arbori- 
culture is one of the finest things that can be done, 
because they will have a constant supply of trees 
ready for their hut-making and all the rest of it, 
instead of going into the Government forests, as 
they have been doing, and cutting out all the 
young trees for this particular purpose and 
injuring the forest, because the old trees are the 
ones which should be cut out. Then I was talk- 
ing of the way the Trappists farm. They simply 
cultivate the lands much as we do, on the most 
scientific lines, and, of course, with all this cheap 
labour available, they keep the lands very clean 
and get the best use out of them, and I think it 
will certainly instil their ideas into the natives, so 
that when they return home they will start and 
put them into force, because the usefulness of the 
thing is clearly brought home to them in the large 
crops that are reaped from a small piece of land in 
comparison to what would have been the case if 
it had been cultivated in the usual slip-shod 
fashion. 

3787. Are they mostly Natal or Cape Colony 
natives in the institute ? — They are mostly Colonial 
natives. Of course, the Trappists have missions 
through Natal, where they would have Natal 
natives. 

3788. This one you allude to is in Griqualand ? — 
We have several stations in Griqualand East, 
right from Umzimkulu to Ongeluks Nek on the 
Basutoland Border. They have taken up a large 
amount of land and are farming it very well. 

3789. Is there not a great demand for these 
youngsters on leaving the institutions ? — There 
would be at once. We farmers would snap up any 
such youngsters, because they would be intelligent, 
and there is no getting away from it that educa- 
tion does make these youngsters intelligent and 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 0(0 

useful/ Then of course they have a knowledge of Mr.charies 

hOW tO do things. Jennie, 

3790. Have they been instituted long enough to m.l.a. 
turn out any quantity ? — No ; it is a thing of recent j u i y 30^ 1908. 
years comparatively, especially as regards Griqua- 

land, where I have knowledge of it. 

3791. In the ordinary mission schools when do 
you propose to start teaching them agriculturally 
or tree-planting and so forth ; at what stage ? — Of 
course a little child can be made to do his fair 
share of weeding. I remember nwself , when I was 
quite a kiddy, my father made me weed, and I was 
paid a penny. It is healthy for them and makes 
them useful. 

3792. Mr. T. Searle.] Do you know whether 
the Trappists charge schools fees ? — That I cannot 
tell you. I have never asked the question. 

3793. Their teachers are nearly all whites ? — Yes ; 
they are all of their own body. 

3794. They have a good many Sisters teaching, 
too ?— Yes. 

3795. Of course theirs is a religious order ? — Yes. 

3796. And their teachers undertake the work as 
a religious duty to a large extent ?— Quite so. 

3797. So you could scarcely compare their 
schools with the ordinary secular schools sup- 
ported by the State ? — You cannot compare them, 
because they are worked on totally different lines. 

3798. Do you have really in their schools an 
ideal state of affairs which is not attainable by the 
State schools ? — I would not like to say that. Of 
course it would be attainable, but it could not be 
worked in the same economical fashion. 

3799. For instance, it is almost impossible for us 
to get sufficient European teachers for the work ? 
— Well, in East Griqualand, for instance, we have 
a lot of young farmers who have passed through 
such colleges as Elsenberg. These boys would be 
quite conversant with the work, and" I am sure 
could be obtainable at small salaries if they lived 
anywhere in the immediate neighbourhood of a 
mission station. 



576 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Charles 3800. As a matter of fact, most of them do not 

RenSe, live there ? — 111 our particular district all the 

mx.a. native locations are surrounded by white farmers. 

July 3o,i908. 01 course, once you leave that then you go through 

nothing but native territories, where there would 

be no white farmers at all, and in that case you 

would have to put up quarters for the men and 

engage them in the usual way. 

8801. You said in your opening statement that 
you found a lot of these boys that passed out of 
school became lazy loafers ? — Yes. 

3802. Does that apply more to them than to 
those who have never been to school ?— Yes. 

3803. Do you think that the boys who have 
never been to school are more industrious than 
those who have been ? — Yes. It all comes from 
the thing that is driving the young people off the 
land at home, and that is, having obtained book- 
learning they think it is infra dig to pick up a 
pick or a spade and do manual work. 

8804. .But do not the heathen natives there, as a 
matter of fact, do very little work ? — At their 
kraals they do as little as possible, but they go out 
to work to raise money for anything they want, 
and they are not afraid to come on to the farms 
and put in six months' work. The men I am allud- 
ing to are quite above that sort of thing. They 
want to try to get a clerkship or in a store, which 
will put them on a higher plane to their brethren 
who have not received that smattering of educa- 
tion. 

3805. But a good many of the educated natives 
go out to work on the mines and so on ?-I suppose 
some do. I do not say it is a general principle 
that natives who have received a smattering of 
education are not prepared to go to work, but I 
say it is so with many of those, and that class, 
which is increasing in the towns, unfortunately, 
you can invariably trace back to some mission. 

3806. I think you admitted in answer to a ques- 
tion just now that when they do work they work 
more intelligently ? — Certainly. I have personal 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 5 / / 

knowledge of that. I have a boy at the present Mr.charies 
time on my farm who is capable of writing me a Rennie, 
weekly letter, telling me how things are going on. M ^ A - 

3807. Then I suppose there is a very much j u i y 30, 1908. 
larger number of boys who have never been to 
school than those who have been to school ? — Yes, 

I should think so. 

3808. Are there more educated boys who become 
loafers than uneducated ones in the aggregate ? — 
No. I should think the bulk of them are all right. 
I should perhaps put it two-thirds all right to one- 
third loafers, or something like that, but of: course 
I am talking at random. I have no statistics to 
go on, and it is just a personal idea. 

3809. You would not argue that it was education 
that made them loafers? They would probably 
be loafers if they had never been to school ?— No ; 
I do not think I would go as far as that. I 
honestly believe that education has, in those insti- 
tutions, spoilt these natives to a large extent by 
being wrongly applied. Had it been applied in 
conjunction with manual work, they would not 
have looked upon manual work as an indignity, 
which they undoubtedly do. This particular class 
you see loafing about the town do not like manual 
work of any kind ; they think it is infra dig. 

3810. Mr. Jagger.~\ Is there any demand for 
coloured clerks ? — Very little, and then one has to 
know quite a lot about the individual before 
employing him. You see native assistants in law- 
yers 1 offices and stores, but invariably the forbears 
of these natives have been known to the em- 
ployers, and they come with a sort of guarantee as 
to their bona fides. 

3811. Mr. T. Searle.-] I think the Committee is 
generally agreed that, wherever possible, manual 
labour is desirable to be taught in the schools. 
What would you advocate in those schools where 
it is not possible — where circumstances make it 
impossible ? — I should say simply have such 
schools to teach them to the Fourth Standard, and 
stop there. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. OO 



578 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Charles 3812. You would advocate continuing the educa- 
RennL, tion, nevertheless ? — Up to the Fourth Standard. 
mx.a.' 3813. Mr. Jagger.] Including the Fourth Stand- 
July 30, 1908. ard ? — I am not quite sure on that point. I am 
not quite sure what the Fourth Standard is. I 
have spoken with men who are thoroughly con- 
versant with the matter, and they seem to think 
that is the standard which it would be safe to 
take them up to. Personally, I would like to see 
exactly what the Fourth Standard was before 
giving an answer to that. 

3814. Mr. T. Searle.] Have you had any experi- 
ence of those boys who have learnt trades ? — Yes. 

3815. Are they able to work on their own 
account ? — I have seen them working very satis- 
factorily on farms, paid by the day, 

3816. JBut that would be on farms under the 
supervision of the owners ? — Yes, carrying out a 
particular job which a farmer wants done. 

3817. I have heard it said — and this is what I 
require information on — that they are not capable 
of working except under supervision, even although 
they have learnt a trade ? — That might be so ; I 
can quite believe it. 

3818. So, as a matter of fact, there is no real 
danger of their ousting the European tradesmen ? 
— I certainly think so. 

3819. You think there is a danger ? — Certainly. 
It is only a matter of time, to my way of thinking. 
But still what are we to do ? 

3820. They would aways have the Europeans 
over them, would they not ? — Yes. Still, of course, 
you find individuals who are capable of rising on 
their merits, and these men will manage even- 
tually to work out with Europeans. Of course at the 
present stage they are not sufficiently advanced ; 
most of them only have a smattering of the thing. 
I do not see why they should stand still in years 
to come any more than we. We have gone on 
advancing and so will they. 

3821. Mr. Murray.] Can you think of half-a- 
dozen native schools within a 50 mile radius of 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 579 

your farm where there is actually ground near the Mr.charies 
schools suitable for cultivation ? — Oh, yes — all of R e °nnie, 
them. M.L.A.' 

3822. And ground which you think could be j u i y 30, 1908. 
got ? — Of course the whole of the district is native 
reserve. I should think the headmen of the 
different districts would be only too pleased. 

3823. Were the children you saw working at the 
Trappist institution boarders or day scholars ? — 
Boarders. 

3824. You cannot say whether the boarders 
were supported by the institution or got their 
education free or not ? — No ; I am not sure if any 
fees were charged, but I understood, from a 
chat I had with one of the Brothers, that these 
youngsters were practically paying for their 
education and he was a great believer in that idea. 

3825. Why do you think the native artisan will 
oust the European artizan ? — Simply because I 
cannot see how you are going to keep the natives 
out of any legitimate field of industry, and if they 
come along prepared to do the work at a lower 
price and do it well, they will naturally oust the 
niore expensive men. 

3826. Do you think it at all likely they will do 
the work as well at a lower price ? — Not perhaps 
for some time to come, but eventually un- 
doubtedly. 

3827. Have you not noticed that native artizans 
tend to increase their standard of living to ap- 
proximate towards the European style of living ? 
— That might be so ; I have no personal know- 
ledge of it. Those I have met I have met just 
working on the farms, where they are paid by the 
men employing them. 

3828. At all events, should they approximate to 
the European standard of living they would com- 
pete on equal terms ? — So long as they compete on 
equal terms I do not see that the European need 
be afraid. 

3829. Mr. de Kocla.'] But ultimately they are 
bound to compete on unequal terms ? — I think so. 



580 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M B^ariee 3830. And then the Europeans will have -to go 

Bennie, to the Wall ? 1 tllilllv SO. 

MLA - 3831. Do you believe in this scheme for higher 
July 30, 1908. education at all ? — I quite believe in it as regards 
those natives who want to rise and who are capable 
of rising, and I certainly would allow them the 
opportunity of rising, if they earn the money to 
pay for it themselves ; that will show^ they are in 
earnest, and you cannot stop them. 
: 3832. Mr. T. Searle.] You would not argue the 
State should not assist at all ? — I would not assist 
them past the Fourth Standard. 

3833. Not at all ?— Not at all. • 

3834. Mr. de Kock.~\ With regard to the loafer 
element you have referred to, these are the gentle- 
men who, as a rule, are the agitators amongst the 
people ? — That is so. 

3835. They w^ould not be agitators if they were 
not educated ? — I believe so. 

3836. That is your experience and the experience 
of all people coming into close contact with the 
natives ? — Yes. 

3837. Mr. van Eooy.] And you think the duty of 
the European population in this country is, even 
at the risk of their own future in the country, to 
push education amongst the natives ? — I am not 
prepared to say it is our duty to push it ; I am 
rather against that. I say the Government would 
be justified in giving State aid to the schools that 
taught the natives as far as Standard IV. Beyond 
that my idea is that if the natives want higher 
education they must be prepared to find the money 
for it themselves. We always recognize the 
liberty of the subject, and I cannot see 
that we would be justified in any way 
in infringing that liberty as far as the native 
is concerned. Of course when it comes to the 
matter of this Inter- Colonial College I am un- 
doubtedly in favour of it, because those natives 
who will rise will have there the opportunity of 
getting the education necessary to enable them to 
take up teaching and help in the schools as a 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 581 

livelihood, which I think is a right and proper M^charies 
outlet for their energy. I would far sooner see Rennie, 
them get their higher education in this country in M ^ A - 
that way than have them sent to England and juiy 30, 1908. 
America and return here with ideas which will be 
detrimental to them and to us. 

3838. It is, of course, only work which would 
really strengthen any individual and naturally 
any people ? It is only by work they will rise 
and get strong ? — Yes. 

3839. So the only remedy for the white man to 
hold his ground in future against the native would 
be by work ? — Certainly. 

3840. That is the only remedy the white man 
has ? — Certainly. 

3841. Chairman.'] Do you think that if the 
Europeans do take to working more than some 
of them have done in the past, and the native 
rises and his wants increase, it will be impossible 
for the Europeans to resist the competition of the 
natives ? — If the Europeans are prepared to live 
frugally and thriftfully, I think they can hold 
their own against the natives. 

3842. As a matter of fact, is not the European 
workman invariably better than the native trained 
workman, or as a general rule ?— At the present 
time, but later on I do not see any reason why the 
native should not qualify himself and become as 
good a handicraftsman as the white man. 

3843. Is it not likely that as he improves his 
methods of work his wants will increase, and 
therefore he will not be able to undercut the 
European as he does at present ?— Of course if he, 
in his natural evolution, goes in for indulgences 
in the same way as we have, I presume he will be 
handicapped by the same things that handicap us 
to-day. 

3844. I understood you to say you were in 
favour of the Inter-State College, as tending to 
prevent the natives from going abroad ? — Yes. 

3845. Would you be in favour of a State subsidy 
to that College ? — Yes, I think so, if it is the 



582 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mr. Charles general opinion of all the other States in the 
Re°nnie. country and they contribute equally towards it. 
mx.a. 3846. You recognize that there are colleges 
July 30, 1908. abroad which are heavily subsidised which the 
natives of this country can go to ? — That is so. 

3847. Supposing our college is not subsidised, 
will it be able to compete with these colleges even 
although they are abroad ? — I very much doubt 
whether it could. Of course, you have always 
a factor that the natives would prefer to remain 
here rather than go to a foreign country, where 
they would be completely isolated from all their 
friends. Most of them are averse to crossing the 
sea. 

3848. Would you think it desirable to make the 
college in this country able to compete effectually 
with colleges abroad, so as to prevent their going 
abroad ? — Yes, I think that would be advisable. 

3849. Mr. Jagger.] You say you would agree to 
the Government subsidising the college, but does 
not that rather depart from the principle you have 
been laying down all long ? — I do not think it is 
contradictory. My idea is, of course, that before 
they can get to this college they will have helped 
themselves up to the level necessary in order to 
matriculate and get into the college, or whatever 
it is that puts them in. That I say they should do 
themselves. In my opinion, you cannot stop a 
native rising if he has the wish and ability to rise. 
I would give him that outlet which he craves in 
this country sooner than allow him to go abroad. 

3850. Mr. T. Searle.'] Do you think the State 
should assist European children above the Fourth 
Standard ? — I do. 

3851. On what grounds, then, do you advocate 
they should withhold assistance from the natives ? 
— I consider we must be the ruling class in this 
country for as long as possible, and that every 
inducement should be given which will enable 
us to hold that position. 

3852. But you would admit that a native boy 
who has passed the Sixth Standard is likely to be a 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 583 

more useful citizen than one who has only passed Mr.charies 
the Fourth Standard ?— That I cannot tell you. R e °nnie 

3853. You would not admit that ?— I should not m.la' 
not like to commit myself to a thing I have no j u i y 3o,;i908. 
knowledge of. 

3854. Do you believe, as an abstract principle, 
that if we only educated the natives up to the 
Fourth Standard they would be more satisfactory 
to us than if we educated them up higher ? — I think 
so, because I take it that for many years to come 
their position in this country is to be that of the 
natural labour supply of the country, and person- 
ally, from the experience of what I have seen in 
England, I do not believe in their having educa- 
tion above that, as it invariably leads to that 
thing which I have complained of all along, and 
that is the fact that, owing to having this know- 
ledge, they consider it infra dig to be the labourers 
of the country. 

3855. You said just now you thought the boy 
who had passed through school was more intelli- 
gent ? — Yes. 

3856. Does it not follow, logically, that if he 
becomes more intelligent up to the Fourth Stan- 
dard, if you take him twice that height he will be 
still more intelligent ? — That might be so logically, 
but practically I do not think so. 

3857. Mr. Jagger.] It does not fit him for his 
work ? — No. 

3858. Mr. van Rooy.] You think we could only 
best raise the natives by doing it by degrees ? I 
mean, on the whole, the native has not reached 
that stage when higher education would be as 
beneficial to him as to the white ? — I quite agree 
with you. I do not think you can go too slowly. 

3859. By pushing education too fast and too 
high we may make them top-heavv, as it were ? — 
Yes. 



584 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Reverend Johannes du Plessis, examined : 

The Rev. 3880. Chairman.'] What position do yon hold? 
/u SS. —General Mission Secretary of the Dutch Keformed 

— q /Church. 
July 30, 1908. ggg^ Have you had experience of mission work ? 
— Not very much in the Colony ; it has been 
chiefly outside the bounds of the Cape Colony. 

3862. Where have you been chiefly ? — As Mission 
Secretary, I visited missions in Nyasaland, Mashona- 
land, the Transvaal and Bechuanaland. 

3863. Have you also missions in the Native 
Territories ? — No. 

3864. Have you any in Bechuanaland ? — Yes. 

3865. In the Protectorate ? — Yes, at Mochuli. 

3866. Have you none in Colonial Bechuanaland ? 
—No. 

3867. Mr. Jagger.] How long have you held this 
position ? — I have been General Mission Secretary 
for the last five years, and secretary to the Nyasa 
Mission for the last nine years. 

3868. Chairman.] Mission work is growing in 
your Church, is it not ? — Yes. 

3869. Have there been any suggestions for 
mission work in the Colony proper ? — Among the 
natives ? 

3870 Yes ? — There have been one or two, yes. 

3871. But nothing has been done so far ? — Noth- 
ing has been actually undertaken of a permanent 
nature. 

3872. Have you in your missions had anything 
to do with education ? — Yes, we have had a con- 
siderable amount of educational work to do in our 
missions, especially our older missions in the 
Transvaal and Bechuanaland, and also to a cer- 
tain extent in Mashonaland and Nyasaland — very 
elementary, of course, in the latter places. 

3873. Do you work on something like the ordi- 
nary code in your missions ? — No. 

3874. What system do you use ? — In our mission 
in Nyasaland and Mashonaland we have more o 
less developed a system of our own. In our olde 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 585 

work, in the Transvaal and Bechuanaland, we The Rev. 
have of late years adopted more or less the Govern- c ^pieSs. 
ment code, especially since we have drawn — 
Government support. We have a grant in aid in 
the Protectorate from the Government for our work 
at Mochuli, and also have grants in aid for our 
work in the Transvaal. 

3875. Do }^ou consider the Government code 
satisfactory ? — No. 

3876. In what way do you think it is unsatis- 
factory ? — The chief point, of course, is the teach- 
ing of English at too early a -stage. 

3877. What do you think ought to be done in 
that respect ? — I think, with all missionaries, that 
the vernacular should be used in the lower stan- 
dards. 

3878. You say, " with all missionaries." Is it a 
fact that all other missionaries hold that view ? — 
I say that because I have here the report of the 
Second General Missionary Conference of South 
Africa, held at Johannesburg in 1906, in which 
practically unanimous decisions were adopted 
asking the Governments of South Africa to intro- 
duce the vernacular as the medium of instruction 
for the lower standards. The Second General 
Mission Conference of South Africa, at which 
about twenty mission societies, if not more, were 
represented, decided to submit the following 
resolutions on native education to the Education 
Department. The first was that the vernacular 
should be the medium of instruction in the lower 
standards of native schools. 

3879. Was any definition given of the words 
u lower standards"? What is meant by "lower 
standards " — I cannot say just from memory. I 
was present at the discussion. I think the first 
two standards were mentioned pretty generally. 

3880. Would you approve of the vernacular 
being taught as a language above that ? — Per- 
sonally, yes. 

3881. Do you think that is the general view ? — 
I will not say it is the general view but it is to a 



586 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. large extent the view that up to at least the Third 

auVieslil Standard the vernacular ought to be taught. 

Jul 30 i9os 3882. What bodies were represented at this 

' Conference ? — The American Zulu Mission, Berlin 

Missionary Society, Church of Norway Mission, 

Church of Sweden Mission, Church of the Province 

of South Africa, Dutch Beformed Church, Free 

Methodist Mission, Hanoverian Mission, London 

Missionary Society, Moravian Mission, Paris 

Evangelical Mission, Methodist Episcopalian 

Mission, South African Baptist Mission, South 

African Compounds and Interior Mission, Swiss 

Mission, United Free Church of Scotland, and the 

Wesleyan Missionary Society. 

3883. Were any Eoman Catholic bodies repre- 
sented ?— No. 

3884. You are not aware whether you are speak- 
ing for them ? — I cannot speak for them at all. 

3885. Do you think the subjects taught in the 
Government code are suitable for native schools ? 
— I am not very well acquainted with the Govern- 
ment code as applied in the native schools in the 
Cape Colony, so that I would rather not express 
a definite opinion on that. I have said here in a 
little memorandum I have drawn up that I think 
instruction in the lower standards should be con- 
fined to geography, history — especially of South 
Africa — natural science and arithmetic ; no gram- 
mar. 

3886. Is your system in Nyasaland and Mashona- 
land a peculiar system of your own ? — Yes. It is 
a very elementary system, because of course the 
mission there has only been established for some 
15 or 18 years, and the work is exceedingly elemen- 
tary. It is mostly instruction in religious truths, 
and of course instruction in reading to those 
requiring it, and the elements of arithmetic, but 
we hardly go beyond that. 

3887. Do you" think it is necessary to have a 
special code for native schools, or do you think the 
European code is suitable ? — I am strongly of 
opinion the natives should have a separate code 
and curriculum. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 00/ 

3888. In what way ought it to be special ? — I The Rev. 
have a written memorandum on the subject, du°pfcSis. 
which I will hand in. \ Witness handed in docu- T , — , rt/va 

. -, L July 30. 1908. 

merit.] 

3889. Do you have agricultural training in your 
institutions ? — Yes. 

3890. Do you think that is valuable ?— We think 
it very valuable. As far as possible, even without 
the support of the Government, in Nyasaland and 
Mashonaland. we have not only agricultural but 
also industrial education and training. 

3891. Have you found that very expensive ? — 
That is, of course, a considerable strain upon us, 
but we always have need for our own doors, 
windows, wagons, and so on. From one point of 
view it an expense and from another point of view 
it is a saving of money. 

3892. Do you think it is possible to make this 
education more or less pay its way ? — I am afraid 
not in South Africa where there is such severe 
competition. It might pay its way in more 
distant parts, for instance in Nyasaland and 
Mashonaland, where there is no very serious com- 
petition. But in more congested centres of civili- 
zation I do not think it can pay its way perma- 
nently. 

3893. Do you train native teachers for these 
schools ? — Yes ; we train our own native teachers. 

3894. Have you special institutions, or do 
you train them in the ordinary schools ? — We 
have at our head stations in Nyasaland and 
Mashonaland special schools for the training of 
teachers and evangelists, and we propose also 
establishing now a school for our different mission 
agencies in South Africa. We have just bought a 
site, where we propose establishing the school, 
near the banks of the Yaal Eiver. 

3895. You think it is necessary to staff your 
school with natives and not with Europeans ? — 
We may perhaps make some use of the natives in 
the lower standards, but the Europeans are 
generally the staff. 



5 88 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. 3896. Is it a wise policy to try to train up 
du °P™. natives for the native schools in your opinion? — 

Inly m 1908 N()t OX ^ ^^ ^^ neCeSSai T- 

, 3897. Do you mean financially necessary? — 

Necessary financially and necessary also because 
the native naturally understands the native best. 

3898. Do you think this scheme of the Inter- 
State College is likely to do good ? — I think myself 
the scheme is rather too pretentious. 

3899. You think it ought to be more of the 
nature of a high school ? — Yes. I have said in my 
memorandum that I do not think the past results 
justify our going to the expense of an Inter- State 
College when it appears that during the last 25 
years our best institution — Lovedale — has passed 
considerably less than one student per annum at 
the matriculation examination. 

3900. Is it not a fact that hitherto the Govern- 
ment has given no grants to secondary education 
preparatory for the matriculation ? — That question 
would be better answered by those knowing the 
system in the Cape Colony; I believe so. 

3901. What system of inspection do you have in 
your schools in the Transvaal, for instance ? Is it 
the same as in the European schools here ? — Yes, 
but not so frequently. Of course, an inspector 
does come round and examine into the working of 
the school and report upon it. Naturally, every 
school receiving a grant is subject to an inspection, 
but the inspections are not as frequent as in the 
Cape Colony. 

3902. Does the inspector decide which standard 
the pupils are to be in ? — So far as I know, yes. 

3903. Do you think that is a proper system ? — 
I could hardly express my own opinion, but will 
call your attention to what the Missionary Con- 
ference decided. They recommended to the 
Governments of the various States that " individual 
examination, whereby the pupils are passed from 
class to class, be left in the hands of the teachers 
and missionary superintendents, and that the 
Government inspectors concentrate their attention 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 589 

on the schemes of work, the teaching, and the The Rev. 
results of the individual classes and the way in dnPUaste. 
which the work of the school generally is carried T _ - inAO 

,, ° July 30, 1908. 

on. 

3904. That represents your own view, does it ? — 
So far as I have any strong opinion on that I can 
say yes, it does. „ 

3905. Do you think native teachers are fit to 
decide in which standards the children should go ? 
— I do not think so. 

3906. Who ought to decide in that case ?— The 
missionary in visiting the schools from time to 
time. 

3907. Do you think it is better done by the 
missionary than the inspector ? — I have had very 
little experience of the work of the inspector here y 
because only lately have we received Government 
grants and inspectors have started examining our 
schools, so thaf I would hardly like to express an 
opinion. I will let the Committee have a copy of 
the proceedings of the Missionary Conference. 

3908. Mr'. Jagger.] When was this mission work 
started by the Dutch Reformed Church in the 
country w T here it is now being carried on ? How 
many years does it go back ? — In the Transvaal 
and Eechuanaland the mission work was started 
in 1862 and 1863, in Nyasaland in 1888 and 1889 T 
and in Mashonaland in 1891. 

3909. How many missionaries have you in the 
field now ? — It is difficult for me to say ; I was not 
quite prepared to give figures. 

3910. Why have you none in the Cape Colony — 
in the Transkei, for instance, where there are so 
many natives ? — I should say first of all because we 
first devoted all our time and energies to missions 
among the coloured people as distinct from the 
black people. Then when we were looking about 
for a mission field the Transkei was already fairly 
occupied and we went to the Transvaal at the 
time, and later on we wanted to extend our work 
and went further abroad where there was not so 
much congestion of missionary operations. 



590 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

j h hknn V: 3911. At Mocliuli what medium of instruction do 
du p a Ss. you use ? — In the lower standards the vernacular 

j 1 ~~ 1908 an( ^ * n ^ e n ^p ner standards English. 

3912. And in the Transvaal ? — I believe they use 
almost purely the vernacular there. There may 
be one or two of the schools in which they are far 
enough advanced to teach some subjects in 
English, but I think there are very few. 

3913. Do you not teach them in Dutch at all ? — 
I do not think so, for this reason, that we are 
dependent for our higher standards especially on 
the Government grants, and they are given on 
condition that we teach in English. 

3914. I suppose in Nyasaland it is much the 
same — the lower standards in the vernacular and 
the higher standards in English ? — In Nyasaland 
or Mashonaland I do not think there is a single 
class where English is used as the medium. 
English may be taught as a language. Neither 
English nor Dutch is used there. As you know, 
there is hardly any white population there. 

3915. Mr. Murray.'] In Nyasaland you have some 
missionary farmers, have you not ? — Yes. 

3916. Do you pay them a salary ? — Yes. 

3917. Is the work on the farm done by teachers 
attending your schools or by pupils attending the 
schools ? — Chiefly by pupils attending the schools. 

3918. Some of these pupils, I understand, are 
full grown men ? — In almost every case they are. 

3919. Who are being trained as teachers ? — Yes. 

3920. Rave you had any difficulty in getting 
them to do manual work on the farms ? — No, I 
cannot say we have had any difficulty. I must 
say they prefer giving their time to industrial 
work. If we give them the choice, they are only 
too glad to work in the workshop. They say they 
learn nothing in the fields ; they can work in the 
gardens from their natural knowledge. 

3921. Do you think we would be able to get any 
Colonial youths to teach practical agriculture to 
natives in the Colony ? — I should fancy you might 
get them if they were connected with some mis- 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. o^l 

sionary society ; that is to say, Aye liaye had young The Rev. 
men at our training college at "Worcester who were au^SSs 
willing to go to the missionary fields as farmer T — 
missionaries, and I should imagine such men are 
still obtainable. 

3922. You think they would distinctly haye to 
be connected with some mission ? — I hardly think 
unless he had some other motive than merely the 
mercenary one of making a living he would go in 
for work of that nature. I might say we had an 
application from an American Mission working 
south of Umtali in Hhodesia asking for a man to 
teach the natives manual labour and agriculture. 

3923. Were you able to supply him ? — No. We 
supplied two men to work in Barotsiland, and 
they worked there for three years. 

3924. Mr. van Rooy.] Are you fairly well 
satisfied so far with the results of the education 
amongst the natives ? — I think I can say we 
should like to have a good many changes made in 
the system of education — the curriculum. We 
think better results are obtainable if the curri- 
culum is better adapted to the needs of the 
natives. We think certain subjects might be 
omitted, and certain other subjects might be treated 
upon lines more adapted to the comprehension of 
the native mind. For example, text-books are 
sometimes introduced dealing with European situ- 
ations and European sights, and so forth. Why 
should not text-books be introduced dealing purely 
with well known sights and situations in South 
Africa — dealing with farm life or the life in the 
veld ? The native will understand that better, 
and we think it will open his mind better than 
books introduced from abroad. 

3925. You would not be able to get any State aid 
unless you bound yourself strictly to the curricu- 
lum as laid down by the Department ? — We must 
hold ourselves to the curriculum. 

3926. Have you ever made any representations to 
the Department on this question ? — This Missionary 
Conference that I referred to made representations 



592 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

The Rev. to all the Education Departments of the various 

du^SS. . States of South Africa, and from some of them we 

— ' received replies in which they admitted the 

' strength of our representations, and from other 

States, again, we got replies in which they said 

they could not see their way to agree with us. The 

replies were not all satisfactory. 

3927. So that, on account of this curriculum, you 
could safely say that, to some extent, all education, 
as far as the State is concerned, is rather wasted ?— I 
would not say that, hut I think the money could 
he spent more advantageously if a better system 
were introduced. 

3928. So far the results have been very poor 
amongst the natives? — I am not prepared abso- 
lutely to say they have been very poor, because you 
must understand, as I said before, our connection 
with the State in the Transvaal is a recent matter. 
I am not speaking at all with full knowledge and 
experience of the subject, but I still say that with 
a better system I think we could produce better 
results. 

3929. Chairman.] Have you anything further to 
bring before the Committee ? — 'No, except that in 
my memorandum there is my opinion on higher 
education and the Native College. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 598 

Friday, 31st July, 1908. 



PRESENT : 
Mr. Feemantle (Chairman). 



Colonel Crewe. 

Mr. Levey. 

Mr. Murray. 

Mr. W. P. Schreiner. 



Mr. T. Searle. 
Mr. de Kock. 
Mr. van Rooy. 



Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S. 
. (further examined.) 

3930. Colonel Crewe.'] There has been some Dr. Thomas 
evidence before this Committee as to the desira- ^j c ^f' 
bility of allowing teachers to move children from f.r.s.' 
standard to standard— native teachers and pre- Julv3 f 1908 
sumably also European teachers. Do you think 

that would be wise in the case of native teachers, 
and do you think it would be wise in the case of 
European teachers ? — Exceedingly unwise in the 
case of native teachers, and in the case of white 
teachers a great deal would depend on their quali- 
fications and what position they had already 
attained in a knowledge of the art of education. 

3931. Can you give us an example of any case 
or cases where, supposing it had been left to the 
teachers, it would have worked out badly ? — You 
may say that it applies generally to the whole of 
the Transkei. In any case it would be a damaging 
thing for the pupils. At the same time, I ought 
to say that the inspectors have the discretionary 
power of conferring with the teacher after an 
examination, if the teacher be dissatisfied ; and 
we have had instances daily of that being done 
within quite recent date. 

39o2. Can you give me an instance ? — You have 
the case which is at the basis, as I consider it, of a 
great deal of the present agitation, namely, the 
case of Inspector Rein. 

3933. Where was that ?— At Lovedale. 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. pp 



594 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

B r : T £°^ s 3934. Can you tell us what that was ?-<[ can 

Muir C M Gr 

ll.d., M.A." give it in short, although it is rather a long story. 
f.ks. This was in 1906, I think the first examination 

July 31, 1908. after Mr. Henderson went to Lovedale. Two 
classes were examined, a class of girls in Standard 
V. and a class in Standard VI., and the inspector 
found out of 22 children in Standard V. 21 failed. 
He was very much struck hy it and thought there 
might be some possibility of mistake, and he gave 
the class another inspection, with a similar 
result. The consequence was that he had to report 
very seriously on the condition of affairs — against 
the competency, really, of the teacher. 

3935. Was that a case where the teacher would 
otherwise have moved them up from standard to 
standard ? — I cannot say whether the teacher 
would have moved them up, but Mr. Henderson 
would have done so. He certainly wanted them 
moved up. He had an interview on this point 
with Inspector Eein, and Inspector Bern' said that 
beyond a certain point he could not depart from 
the result of the examination. After that Mr. 
Henderson and another gentleman came to Cape 
Town to me and complained about Inspector Rein. 
Fortunately, I had all the papers down from 
Inspector Eein, and I said to Mr. Henderson that 
I thought it was a pity there should be any friction 
between him and the inspector, more especially in 
his first year there. Further, I said I could not 
reverse the judgment of the inspector without 
going into the facts myself, but if he liked to leave 
the papers with me I would put them into the 
hands of two independent inspectors who happened 
to be in the office, and the day after I would let 
him see their judgment. 

3936. What was their judgment ? — Exactly in 
accordance with Inspector Rein's judgment — that 
the class had been exceedingly badly taught. Mr. 
Henderson ultimately agreed with me that the 
class had been badly taught ; that was the next 
day. He said, however, that he feared the 
children had not shown their best, because of the 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 595 

inspector's manner. I then said, " Well, Inspector Dr. T ^ ^ 
Eein is a man who has inspected Lovedale for ll.d., m.a.'' 
nine years, and I have never heard a word against F ^- s - 
his manner," and I added, "I am not going to juiy 31, 1908. 
believe it now unless I have very good evidence." 

3937. Inspector Eein had inspected all through 
Dr. Stewart's time ? — Yes, and we never heard of 
anything but the best of terms existing between 
them. Not only that, but I had no complaint 
against Inspector Eein from any other school in 
his circuit. Further, I felt that the whole thing- 
was very unwise — that Inspector Eein was not an 
unreasonable man, and the proper course for Mr. 
Henderson to have taken was to have thanked the 
inspector for the facts which he had brought to 
his notice. Surely every headmaster wants to 
know when there is any weakness in his school, 
and wants to amend it accordingly, and, further, 
wants to amend it in the most pleasant and agree- 
able way. I then said to Mr. Henderson, "Well, 
now. Mr. Henderson, to guard against this in the 
future I will send another inspector to work along 
with Inspector Eein, and then there will be very 
little chance of misunderstanding." He agreed 
that that would be a reasonable thing to do. Then 
lie came back the next day and said he had 
thought over the matter, and he was of the same 
opinion as I was about living on good terms with 
Mr. Eein. and he would only ask for one inspector 
instead of accepting the offer I had made to him. 
I thought that was a satisfactory solution. I had 
then to go away to England, and unfortunately 
a change of view had again occurred at Lovedale. 
As a result the time came when the Colonial 
Secretary had to deal with the matter. There 
was then actually a proposal from Lovedale to 
remove Inspector Eein from his circuit. This 
I thought quite intolerable — that a man who 
had been a good public servant for so many years 
and done his work so admirably should, because 
he had . not failed in his duty on a particular 
occasion when it was disagreeable, be open to 



596 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Mui/cMG* ^ rea ^ men ^ °f this kind — and I distinctly said so 

\j!.i>., m.a.',' just as I was leaving for England. I believe that 

F.R.S. w hat took place afterwards was that Mr. Hender- 

juiy3i,i<>os. son and another came to Cape Town and saw 

Colonel Crewe, and that the whole matter was 

gone into anew, the outcome being, as I was told 

when I returned, that the two inspectors were to 

visit in accordance with the off er originally made. 

3938. The two inspectors went ? — Yes. 

3939. The class was examined again ? — Not the 
class. The whole of the school was examined the 
second time by the two inspectors, and I think 
things went on fairly comfortably. 

3940. Was there an improvement as far as the 
examination was concerned? — I think there was 
a little improvement. I would rather not enter 
into details, because I do not know them, but I 
know that the general result of the inspection was 
more satisfactor}^, and that the relations were 
fairly friendly. The new inspector drew my 
attention to one thing which I think it is 
most important for a Committee of this kind 
to keep their eye upon. When the two 
inspectors went on that occasion there was 
something like a veiled rebellion amongst 
the native pupils ; that is to say, the 
attitude of the natives towards the inspectors was 
unpleasant. My firm conviction is that it is the 
duty of every white man and coloured man to 
see to the maintenance of discipline, and to 
be respectful to every one placed in authority 
over them — that it is not good for either white 
or coloured to have discontent fomented by 
men in the position of teachers. One of the 
inspectors, however, said to me afterwards 
that there was an improvement as soon as atten- 
tion was drawn to it. That incident is at an end, 
I hope, although I learnt quite recently that at a 
Teachers' Association meeting held here in Cape 
Town a letter from Lovedale was read again 
directing attention to Inspector Rein in an un- 
pleasant way. I am glad to say that the Teachers' 
Association declined to have anything to do with it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 597 

3941. That was a case where practically a whole J* : Thomas 
class would have been raised to the standard above ll 1 d.^m.Am 
if there had not been a check ? — Yes, and immense F ^- s - 
harm done. As a matter of fact, what actually j u i y 31, 1908, 
came out of the affair was that when attention 

was drawn by the headmaster to certain pupils 
who, in the opinion of the teacher, had done well 
during the session, the inspector agreed that a few 
might be promoted. In my opinion, to put into the 
hands of teachers, all and sundry, the power of 
promoting their pupils would simply bring the 
whole of elementary education into chaos. In a 
high school one can quite imagine, in the case of a 
headmaster with a good knowledge of education, 
a full sense of his responsibilities, and a great deal 
of experience, that one could leave a very great 
deal to him. 

3942. As a matter of fact, you do leave a great 
deal to them in cases of that kind ? — Yes. 1 may 
also mention that the whole question of individual 
inspection versus class inspection was raised at the 
said meeting of the Teachers' Association, and was 
negatived ; the teachers themselves negatived it. 

3943. The} 7 supported the inspections ? — Yes, as 
a body. Passing from this, I have here the papers 
which Colonel Stanford and Mr. Schreiner spoke 
about at my last examination, showing the statis- 
tics regarding the operation of the Glen Grey Act 
as regards education. I first of all give the magis- 
tracies in order, and put an asterisk to those that 
are under the Glen Grev clauses. 

3944. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] Under the Glen 
Grey Act ? — Yes. Then I separate them into two 
lots, 15 districts under the Glen Grev clauses and 
14 not. 

3945. You are speaking entirely of the Trankei ? 
— I am sjieaking entirety of the Transkei. A 
column is given giving the population and then 
the number of children of school-going age. 

3946. Children of 5 to 14 years ?— Yes. Then 
comes the total enrolment and lastly the percent- 
age in school. 1 do the same with the 14 districts 



598 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Muii T1 c°MG w hi c h are not under the administration of the 
ll.d., m.'a.,' Glen Grey clauses. And shortly, this is what 
fji.s. C omes out, that there is 26 per cent, of the children 
July si, 1908. in school in the one set of districts. 

3947. That is, the Council districts ? — The Council- 
districts, and only 13 per cent, in the others. 

3948. And, if I may put it to you, in the 13 per 
cent, set you, of course, ifairly recognise that there 
is included all Pondoland ? — Quite so. 

3949. Which would keep down the percentage ? 
— Yes, as Pondoland came in at a much later 
date. 

3950. Because there the missionar} 7 schools are 
not nearly so numerous and effective ? — That is 
true. 

3951. But if } t ou take the detailed figures you 
give, you will find the best percentages are in 
Council districts ? — Yes. 

3952. And mainly in the Fingo districts ? — Quite 
true. The one Magistracy where there is a very 
low figure, and yet where the Council system pre- 
vails, is Elliotdale, where you have only 5 per 
cent. 

3953. Do you account for that by anything of 
which you are aware ? — Elliotdale was not in- 
tended at first to be brought in, but it was 
encircled by some of the other districts and. as a 
matter of convenience, was brought in. 

3954. Against its will ? — I rather think a certain 
proportion of the population was opposed to it. As 
a matter of fact, what has taken place is that we 
have urged the adoption of the Council system, 
and gradually the Magistracies mentioned have 
been got under it. We propose to go on in the 
same way and, when the people are ready for it, 
to get it introduced into the other Magistracies. 
If there was any other way of hastening it, I 
should be very glad to see it. 

3955. But you are not suggesting it should be 
forced on the people before they are ready for it ? 
— No. I do not think that would be wise. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 599 

3956. Chairman.'] You take the census figures r>r. Thomas 
of 1904? — Yes. You will remember it was sug- L ljd., mJC 
gested we should try to get the figures brought up Y *f- 
to date. Unfortunately, we could not do that with j u i y 3i, 1908. 
any certainty. 

3957. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] You are taking 1904? 
— Yes. 

3958. You have not really got the data for the 
later date ?— No. 

3959. As far as your knowledge goes, the ten- 
dency would be rather to increase the disparity? 
— Every year makes a little difference. 

3960. In the direction of raising the enrolment 
of children at schools in the Council districts as 
against the others ? — Yes. The strong lever in 
these districts is the security of payment to the 
teachers, the consequence being that the teachers 
get to know this and they seek for appointments 
in Council schools. That, of course, begins to 
affect the quality of the education at once, apart 
altogether from the numbers. 

3961. Good teaching brings pupils ? — Yes. 

3962. Chairman.'] I wanted to ask you about 
some points which have been raised in the course 
of the evidence. Firstly, we have had it put 
before us that in the year 1906 there was a con- 
ference of missionaries representing, I think, all 
the Protestant denominations, at Johannesburg, 
and that this adopted a number of resolutions 
dealing with education, which were submitted to 
the Government, and replies received. I gather 
that those replies were not published, and I should 
like to know if you can recall the incident and tell us 
what the replies were ? — I remember the incident 
quite well, but at the same time I could not charge 
my memory with the nature of the replies. It was 
a conference that rather concerned native educa- 
tion in general — not native education in (Jape 
Colony — and I would be more interested in the 
parts dealing with Cape Colony than in those 
dealing with the other States. 



600 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

,? r . T J°^ s 3963. But these resolutions were of a general 

Muir C M. Gr 

ll.d., m.a.,' kind which might apply to Cape Colony? — Some 
f.r.s. would apply, and those which would apply I 
July 31, 1908. would certainly be interested in. 

3964. Perhaps we can go through the points. 
The first was that the vernacular should be the 

. medium of instruction in the lower standards of 
native schools. You have already expressed your 
view on that ? — My view is very simple. It is the 
view expressed in the Gazette, namely, that it is 
desirable in the lower standards, most unquestiona- 
bly, that the vernacular should be used in teach- 
ing. There ought to be no difficulty in doing that, 
because the teachers are all Kafirs. At the same 
time, from the lowest standard they should begin 
to get a useful knowledge of English, meaning by 
that of spoken English at first — not to read English 
before they know the meaning of the words. 

3965. Then with regard to the teaching of Kafir, 
you would approve of the teaching of Kafir 
throughout the course ? — Throughout, meaning 
how far in the standards ? 

3966. I mean throughout the standards ? — I 
question very much whether it could be done as a 
practical matter. If you were going to use it 
throughout the whole course, you would need .to 
have text-books dealing with technical subjects, 
such as grammar, geography and so forth. I would 
not at all object to its being taught throughout,, 
but only with the following conditions, namely, 
(1) that the words " as far as possible " should be 
added, and (2) making English in the upper 
standards the real test. 

3967. Is not Kafir a subject in the pupil teachers' 
course ? — Yes, as a language. 

3968. So that is practicallv the highest course ? 
—Yes. 

3969. You surely would not recommend that 
there should be a break, having Kafir taught in 
the lower standards and then not at all until the 
highest ones ? — No, of course not, but these are 
teachers. All pupils are not going to be teachers. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 601 

We put the subject into the third year's course to ^ r T £^f 
make sure the teachers know Kafir for teaching ll.d., m.a.,'' 
purposes. Only we do not exact Kafir alone ; we F -^f- 
say Kafir or Sesuto or Secwana. July 31, 1908. 

3970. Does that complete the expression of your 
view with regard to the medium ? — I consider it 
would be a great mistake to insist upon a hard 
and fast line throughout every part of the Colony, 
because the circumstances of the districts differ ; 
therefore one must make it of the nature of a 
recommendation to be tried to be carried out rather 
than a definite rule. You have places where the 
people wish to learn English far more than they 
do in other places, and therefore you must not 
merely humour them, but seriously take their 
wishes into account. 

3971. This resolution was also passed by them : 
" That a period of at least half-an-hour a day for 
religious instruction should be included in the 
school hours required by the Departments." 
Could you let us know what your reply to that 
was ? — I would not include the half-hour as a 
subject for the inspectors to deal with. I am very 
strongly against the inspectors having anything 
to do with religious instruction. I should be 
quite in favour of half-an-hour being given to 
supervision by the clergyman who happens to be 
the superintendent of the school. 

3972. Would you be in favour of including that in 
the school hours ? — Yes, I would not object to that. 
As a matter of fact, in our white schools at the 
present moment you have a portion of the day 
devoted to these exercises. So long as the history 
of native education is what it is, it is very desir- 
able that the clergymen should take a real interest 
in that part of school work ; and so long as our 
system of education in Cape Colony is confessedly 
undenominational, so long is it desirable that the 
Government should not mix itself up in religious 
examinations. 

3973. Do you think it is impossible to agree to 
some system of bible teaching for different deno- 



602 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas ruinations, and to have that inspection by the 

ll!d, m.a.!' inspectors ? — I think it might be possible for them 

f.ks. ^ agree. I do not know that there is any very 

July 31, 1908. great objection because the question has never 

been actually raised. If the clergymen would 

agree amongst themselves it would be a very good 

thing, not merely on this account but for other 

purposes. 

3974. As a matter of fact, a system of this kind 
appears to be working in the Transvaal, is it not ; 
at any rate according to the law ? — I am not aware 
of it. 

3975. It is suggested to us by some witnesses 
that subjects which are not inspected by the in- 
spector tend to be neglected — that religious educa- 
tion is particularly important to the natives, and 
there is therefore a difficultv there unless you can 
have inspectors inspecting? — I daresay that it is 
the case. I should quite think that the teacher 
would probably pay attention most to the things 
which he knew the Government inspector attached 
importance to. Another reason why the religion is 
probably neglected is the fact that the missionary 
superintendents have far more schools now than 
they used to have. You sometimes have a missio- 
nary with a score of schools, and at considerable 
distances from one another. It is impossible for 
him to give the attention to them that used to be 
possible. 

3976. You just now replied to Colonel Crewe 
about the question of individual examination and 
leaving the matter of promotion to the teachers. 
This was the resolution passed by the Conference : 
'• That individual examination, whereby the pupils 
are passed from class to class, should be left in the 
hands of the teachers and the missionary super- 
intendents ; and that the Government inspectors 
should concentrate on the schemes of work, the 
teaching and results of the individual classes and 
the way in which the work of the school generally 
is carried on." Would the introduction of the 
missionary superintendents as well as the teachers 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 603 

at all affect your opinion on this question ? — I do &*. Thomas 
not see how the missionary superintendents at ^l!o. C K,'' 
present could have any judgment on the matter F ^- s - 
at all, because they are absolutely unaware of the j u i y 31, 1908. 
details of class-instruction in the majority of their 
own schools. I should say if the missionary 
superintendent was well informed of the circum- 
stances of the school and of the proficiency of the 
pupils I should have no objection to his consulting 
with the teacher and the inspector about a practi- 
cal difficulty. 

8977. We have a great many witnesses, includ- 
ing those who are most friendly to the system of 
individual inspection, who think it would be an 
advantage if more time could be paid by the 
inspectors to seeing the teachers teaching and 
forming judgment on the methods adopted, and so 
forth ? — Yes, I quite agree. 

3978. I understand your view on that point is 
you would like to have more inspectors? — Yes. 
We are quite aware of the need for more time. In 
the Transkei now we have six inspectors, and 
they are hard -worked men. 

3979. The Conference also passed this resolution : 
"That considering that the existing systems of 
native education have grown up in the hands of 
the missionaries, and considering the intimacy of 
the missionaries with native life and thought, the 
Conference bring before the Governments of the 
Colonies the desirability of forming an advisory 
board on native education with missionary repre- 
sentation." Do you consult at all with these 
conferences that meet from time to time — of heads 
of institutions and so forth ? — Yes ; I am forced 
to consult with them, because we do not always 
see eye to eye. 

3980. This resolution is actually in working- 
order ? — Yes. For example, the whole system of 
maintenance grants, which is an outstanding 
trouble between the Department and the heads of 
institutions, has been more than once brought into 
discussion. 



604 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

mlix T c MG 3981. Then there is this resolution, which also 
ll.d.. m k.j' fits in with some of the evidence we have : " That 
f.r.s. the S y S tem of education and standards in the 
juiy 31, 1908. various Colonies should be approximated as closely 
as possible ; but, in the new territories where 
education is only being begun, in order to secure 
local teachers, the training course should begin 
with Standard IV." We have evidence with 
regard to the condition of things in Bechuanaland 
which rather agrees with that ? — Yes, Bechuana- 
land is backward. 

3982. Have you any suggestions to make on 
that ? — I think the best plan, as I have already 
indicated in regard to other things, is to have your 
system fairly elastic, and if you cannot get a 
teacher who has the qualifications that are usually 
required then you must accept the next best. 

3983. Then in the case of Bechuanaland, where 
matters seem to be rather backward, would you 
agree to relaxing the requirement that the normal 
course should begin considerably beyond Stan- 
dard IV.? — No ; I would not wish the normal 
course to be altered to suit the circumstances of a 
little district like Bechuanaland. 

3984. It has been represented to us that progress 
is impossible in Bechuanaland under the present 
circumstances because progress depends on getting 
teachers and teachers depend on progress ? — The 
same thing might have been said of the Colony at 
one time. We have succeeded in getting the 
standard raised wonderfully. The condition of 
affairs to-day is that natives begin their normal 
course at a standard above the standard they used 
to leave off at. Standard V. was originally the 
standard for the teachers' examination ; now it is 
Standard VI. on entry. Well, the way in which 
this has been brought about is, as I say, by treat- 
ing each case on its merits. If we could not 
get a good teacher we took the next best, but we 
always kept a high ideal in front of us and worked 
up towards that. I believe Bechuanaland will 
make improvement in time. What has always 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 605 

been wanted in Bechuanaland is a central school jP 1 ^ 1 ™^ 
which would train specialty for the Bechuanaland ll!d., m.a.,"' 
district. Any teachers who got their training FR ; S 
formerly used to go away to institutions in July 31, 1908, 
the Colony, where Secwana was not spoken ; but, 
now that the London Missionary Society have 
started an institution under Mr. Willoughby, I 
am quite certain that in time a change will 
be brought about. I know it is uphill work 
for Mr. Willoughby as yet. What I would 
propose to do is not to lower the standards to 
suit the Bechuanas, because that would mean 
having a whole system of examinations for this 
particular little place alone, and it would give the 
idea that there was no good in their struggling for 
higher standards. 

3985. The standard was raised gradually in the 
Colony ? — Yes, and we would raise it in the same 
way gradually there, only by consideration of each 
individual case as the school or district came for- 
ward. 

3986. You think it is desirable to insist on 
Standard YI. as the entrance for the normal course 
in Bechuanaland even now ? — We do not in- 
sist upon it, because we have not got it ; there is 
practically no normal course at all. What we have 
is instruction in the ordinary standards, and after 
a pupil has reached Standard Y., if he does not like 
to go beyond that, we will accept him as a teacher. 
That is a practical way of dealing with the matter. 

3987. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.] Unless you have for 
that appointment some other man who is more 
highly qualified ? — Who has higher qualifications, 
yes ; and it must be remembered that that is the 
method we have adopted with the white teachers 
in the Colony. In the early days we had the same 
difficulty with them. Standard IY. used to be 
accepted as a qualification for a teacher in a 
country district. All that has been altered. 

3988. Chairman.'] What happens to these teachers 
in Bechuanaland when they have got up to Stan- 
dard Y. ? Do they immediately begin teaching ? — 
Some of them do. 



606 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TA1[EN BEFORE THE 

pr. Thomas 3989. Without anv training at all ?— Practically 

Muir C M^ Gr 

ll.d., m.a.,' without any professional training, and they are 
fji.s. better than the teachers who were in Bechuana- 
July 31, loos, land when we began. 

3990. If a normal school were started there for 
training Bechuana teachers, you would still think 
it desirable to insist on Standard VI. for their 
entrance ? — Yes, because it would not be started 
before students were actually prepared thus far. 

3991. You make no grants at the present time 
for secondary education for natives, do you ? — No 
grants at the present time. The only institution 
offering education of this kind is what is called 
the higher department of Loved ale, an institution 
that has been financed from Scotland for a very con- 
siderable number of years. A large sum of money 
is thus spent. The last information I got 
was that over £2,000 a year really went towards that 
department alone. It is certainly not want of 
money that prevents the development of that side 
of education. 

3992. Is it a fact that grants were at one time 
made by the Department to that branch of work ? 
— Yes, but at that time the work was not distinctly 
separated as it is now. It was very much more 
of a whole institution than it is now. 

3993. Could you tell us when those grants were 
discontinued ? — I cannot recall at the present 
moment. I know it must have been a considerable 
number of years ago. 

3994. This question of the grants for normal 
schools appears to be a burning one. Could you 
explain to us on what principle the individuals 
are selected to whom grants are made ? — The prin- 
ciple is very simple, namely, that we have a 
certain number of grants available ; that there are 
always more students than there are grants ; that 
we prefer students who are in the third year, to 
students who are in the first year or the second 
year ; and that we prefer students in the second 
year to those who are in the first year. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 6'07 

3995. When there are more students in the d^. Thomas 
second and third years than there are grants ll.d.. m.a.,"' 
available at a particular institution, what principle F ^- s - 
do you adopt in selecting? — I do not think there juiy 31, 190®: 
is any difficulty really in coming to a decision, 
because as a rule we leave out students who come 

from other States, and the remaining number after 
doing that is so small that it is a very simple thing 
to allocate the grants. 

3996. It has been put to us very strongly that 
these institutions are unable to follow the princi- 
ples which are adopted in making these grants ? — 
They should not be unable to follow them. The 
plan is as simple as it can possibly be. In actual 
practice it means that every pupil of the third 
year gets a grant, and every pupil of the second 
year if there is enough to go round — as near that 
as we possibly can — but never a pupil of the first 
year unless there are very few in the second and 
third years. 

3997. If there are more pupils in the second year 
than the grants available, I do not quite under- 
stand how the selection is made amongst them ? — 
I do not see that it would really matter. You 
must understand that the whole of these grants 
are not grants to the individuals. This is the con- 
tention I have always had against the system, 
namely, that they are doles — they are donations to 
the institution. 

3998. To the institution ?— To the institution, 
and the boy or girl named never sees the grant ; it 
is pocketed by the institution. So it does not really 
matter whose name, almost, is attached to a grant. 
The only reason we want a name attached to the 
grant is to keep the institution thoroughly with 
this conception in view that it is a bad system. 

3999. That what is a bad system ? — The system 
of giving grants not to individuals but to an 
institution. It is a thing we should never do 
with white education. The old system used to be 
this : 28 maintenance grants were given to an 
institution. The question of who were to be 



608 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Muir T c°MG maintained by those grants were perfectly un- 
ll .6., k"A.',' known to the Department. 28 times £12 was 
f.r.s. handed over to the institution. I consider that, 
July 31, 1908. and every educationalist would consider it, an 
exceedingly unwise system, because the deserving- 
pupils get no recognition whatever. What I 
should prefer to do would be to give the grants to 
the deserving students no matter who they might 
be. Then let them pay their own fees. What 
takes place, on the other hand, is this, that a 
certain institution receives a certain number of 
grants for certain pupils, and it puts their money 
into its own chest and still makes the pupils pa 
like others who are unaided. Supposing you 
have a third year's student to whose name is 
attached a £12 grant, the £12 never reaches that 
student ; it goes direct to the institution, and the 
student, poor fellow, has to pay the same as if he 
had never had the £12 assigned him — the same as 
if the £12 had never been attached to his name. 
I know that the institutions have begun to recog- 
nize this now, and last year they actually made a 
proposal for a better system ol giving grants. I 
think that is an immense concession on their part, 
and they have been told we shall be delighted 
to consider it. 

4000. Do you think something might be done on 
those lines ? — Most unquestionably, and they have 
been told so. This was in March, 1907. They 
then intimated the scheme they had drawn up, 
and they received a reply as follows : "I am 
directed by the Superintendent-General of Educa- 
tion to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 
15th February, and to thank you for the willing- 
ness therein expressed to give careful consideration 
to his wishes in the matter of the maintenance 
grants to the native training schools. It is 
regretted that, in the pressure of business at 
present, it is not possible to sketch out the two or 
three alternative schemes that have been thought 
of in the office during the last two or three years. 
The essential points, however, of any of these 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON XATIVE EDUCATION. 609 

schemes being well known to you, and especially Dr. Thomas 
fresh in the memory of Mr. Henderson, there is l£i>., m.a.,1 
the less cause for regret on this point. Further, F ^ s - 
the Department is not at all wedded to details and j u i y 31, 1908. 
would give the fullest consideration to any scheme 
devised by you that would give due prominence 
to the essentials just referred to. Another reason 
weighs at the moment for not taking up the sub- 
ject here in detail, viz.. the sad want of funds at 
the present juncture. Even on the lines originally 
suggested, more money was intended to be spent 
than under the present system, and in all proba- 
bility any new scheme whatever would involve 
increased expenditure." I may say that at present 
the scheme proposed by them would involve 
double the expenditure we are making. " When 
therefore we are struggling to obtain money for 
absolute necessities, and when there is every pro- 
spect of the increases necessary for growth not 
being provided for 011 next year's Estimates, it 
would scarcely be wise to spend valuable time in 
working out a solution of the problem of mainten- 
ance grants." Then we made inquiry if they had 
received that, and we have got their letter in 
reply. There is no objection on the part of the 
Department to putting the maintenance grants on 
a sounder footing ; it has been the Department that 
has always wished to have them on a sounder foot- 
ing. The great difficulty is to get sound principles 
introduced to the system and to get away with the 
old conception that the Government must give a 
sort of dole to an institution and let the institution 
administer the said dole as it pleases, 

4001. Do you think it would be possible to 
divide the money that is now available in such a 
way that it should be available for the particular 
pupils ? — Yes. I have two schemes whereby that 
could be done, but then, unfortunately, it works 
out a little hardly 011 certain institutions that 
have been drawing certain sums in the past, and 
naturally these institutions complain. They say, 

[A. 1— '08.] Native Education. qq 



610 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas and I believe it, that this scheme of theirs- would 
ll.d., if' not press hardly or adversely on any institution. 

f.r.s. 4002. But it "would on the Government ?— It 

July 3i, 1908. would on the Government. It means at the 
present moment doubling the expenditure. At 
the same time, I must say, if money were avail- 
able I would not grudge the double sum if we got 
a sound return for it. What is desired is that 
money that is to be spent for the training of 
teachers will go to the pupils who are going to 
profit by it, so that if a pupil gets £12 his own 
finances are goins: to be relieved to the extent of 
£12. 

4003. But you would not propose to give £12 to 
the third year teachers and to most of the second 
year teachers and nothing at all to the institution 
or the first year pupils ? — No. We are doing that 
at the present moment because we have not enough 
money, and we come from the top downwards, 
because it is better to encourage the student who 
has stayed for three years than the student 
entering on his first year. Another thing I ought 
to draw attention to is that the institutions in 
the past have worked their classes below cost 
price ; there has always been a charitable element 
entering into their schemes. Well, from the mis- 
sionary point of view that may be wise or it may 
not ; but in reference to the pupil teachers 
it works out most unjustly. It means this, that a 
pupil who gets a Government grant has to pay out 
of his own pocket the very same sum of money 
that the pupil who does not get a Government 
grant pays. What would be better would be this : 
let them estimate the cost to them per pupil and 
charge that from all. Then if a boy or girl got a 
Government grant that Government grant would 
help to pay the fee required. The institutions are 
beginning to recognize this, or rather, they have 
begun to recognize it ; and they have, at my sug- 
gestion, slightly increased the fee, and I believe 
the} r would be willing again to raise it so as to 
make the classes as nearly as possible self- 
supporting. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 611 

4004. In that case how would you decide on the J>r : Thomas 
deserving students ? — We could for one thing — "u^'m.I^ 
this is one scheme which has been proposed by the FRS - 
Department — have an entrance examination for the juiy3i T i9oa, 
pupil teachers' course, and give grants to all those 
passing the entrance examination. Then at the 

end of the first year the students that passed would 
have their grants continued, and the students 
that failed would not ; and so on. It is a perfectly 
simple scheme, exactly similar to what takes place 
in the case of white schools. I may mention that 
in Cape Town at the present moment, where we 
have 240 teachers under training, not a single 
teacher of the first year gets a grant ; and this for 
the very same reason which affects native teachers 
—because we have not the money to do it. 

4005. Supposing you carried that plan out in the 
native schools would you get the first year pupil 
teachers from amongst the natives ? — For exami- 
nation ? 

4006. Supposing you gave them no grants at all, 
and the institutions charged them £16, which I 
think. they calculate as satisfactory, instead of 
charging £12 as they do at the present time, would 
they go to the institutions ? — They are going at 
present without any Government grants — those of 
the first year. The only thing they are not doing 
at present is they are not paying the full cost of 
the expenditure made on them. 

4007. Do you think they would be prepared to 
pay the extra £4 ? — I do not think so, just at the 
present time. The advice I have always given is 
to raise the cost gradually , and as I say this has 
been done more than once. 

4008. On the whole, we may feel that this ques- 
tion is in a fair way of settlement ? — Yes, there is 
no doubt about that. I do not wish, however, to 
give you the impression that I would agree to their 
scheme just exactly as it stands ; but such a scheme 
is certainly quite a fair thing to propose and quite 
a fair thing for the Government to try to follow 
out. 



612 MINUTES GF EVIDENCE TAKEN BE FOB E THE 

Dr. Thomas 4009. But the scheme put forward would involve 
LLD. C iMULJ' considerable additional expenditure, and therefore 
fji.s. i s ou t of the question at the present time ? — Yes, 
July 31,1908. and that is the only reason preventing our con- 
sideration of it. 

4010. There is one other question I wish to ask. 
I have some correspondence from one quarter say- 
ing that the regulations with regard to the pay- 
ment of teachers do not give sufficient encourage- 
ment to the teachers to remain in the schools, and 
the result is very large numbers of teachers leave, 
so that the country is paying a large amount for 
training teachers and is not keeping them ? — There 
is no doubt about that being so. 

4011. That is due to the payment not being 
adequate to keep them ? — Yes. Other walks of life 
take them away, where they are better paid, and no 
one can object. The only thing one can say is, " When 
you have received Government money to train 
you to be a teacher, you ought to give your services 
for a certain length of time in a Government 
school." More than that you cannot expect from 
coloured or white. 

4012. Could the grants for teachers be arranged 
in any way which would give more encouragement 
to the teachers to remain without the grants them- 
selves being enlarged ? — I do not think so, at 
present. It would mean making some of the 
lower grants absolutely too low, and the salary 
would not then be a living wage. 

4013. You could not grade the teachers grants'? 
— To a greater extent then at present and yet spend 
the same sum of money ? 

4014. That could not be done ? — No, I do not 
think so. 

4015. I am also told this, that cases occur in 
which managers are allowed to advertise salaries 
for teachers on the strength of grants, and then 
when the teachers are appointed the grants are 
reduced and the teachers' salaries therefore 
reduced, and this causes dissatisfaction ? — I do not 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 613 

think this could possibly happen without a satis- Dr - T ^?f 
factory reason. There is no desire to diminish the lljx. ma." 
grants. FR ^ S 

4016. I suppose if an uncertificated teacher is j u iy 31, 1908. 
appointed then the grant is smaller ? — Of course, 
naturally. That is for the very purpose indicated 

in your previous question — in order to grade. 

4017. The inspectors in the Native Territories 
inspect the European schools as well as the native 
schools ? — Yes. 

4018. Is that a satisfactory plan, or would it be 
better if you had inspectors purely for the native 
schools? — It would be better in the matter of 
language. It would make the administration 
easier as regards language. 

4019. Would it involve additional expenditure ? 
— Of course it would. 

4020. Would it be a serious additional expendi- 
ture ? — At the present moment we are in want of 
additional inspectors as the system stands, and to 
change it would make a serious increase, because 
of the fact that the white schools in the Transkei 
are separated by such immense distances. I could 
scarcely advise a distinction being drawn at pre- 
sent between the inspector for native schools and 
the inspector for white schools. Not very long ago 
there were very few white schools in the Terri- 
tories, and the inspector then was a man who had 
really to do with native schools alone. 

4021. And the same would apply to the institu- 
tions ? You would not recommend a separate in- 
spector for the native institutions for training 
native teachers ? — Yes, we have a separate in- 
spector, appointed last year, meaning by native 
institutions native training schools. 

4022. Yes. Who is that?— Mr. Anderson. He 
is for all the training schools of the Colony. 

4023. It would not be enough work for one man 
to inspect all the native institutions ? — I think not. 

4024. Do you think there is anything in the 
theory that the inspectors' visits are in any way 
unsettling to the work of the schools ? — I do not 



614 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M r "- T r°M o ^^ n -^ so * I nave na( l complaints of the inspector 
ll!d., kJC of woodwork sometimes turning up just shortly 
f.r.s. after the regular inspector had made his appear- 
ing 3i, 1908. ance at the school, and that caused a little 
disarrangement. I think, however, that could 
easily be got over ; indeed I sent a notice round 
some time ago to all the instructors to say that at 
their visits they were to take the schools in their 
usual condition and to let the work go on as 
nearly as possible as it would from day to day in 
their absence. 

4025. Mr. W. P. Schreiner.'] Have you considered 
the suggestion that there might be adopted a kind 
of advisory board, including some missionary 
representation, not to control but to advise on 
matters of native education ? — No ; I have not 
thought of that. 

4026. That is among the suggestions which I 
think were put forward b}^ the Missionary Con- 
ference of 1906, and I was wondering what attitude 
you had occupied with regard to that ? — I would 
not be averse to it. I would like, however, first to 
balance the benefits one would get from it against 
the drawbacks. 

4027. You are of opinion, I take it, that the 
missionary element cannot at this stage be 
divorced from our educational system for natives ? 
— I am quite of that opinion. 

4028. You hold that is of great importance ? — I 
hold that it is still of great importance. 

4029. And if there were such advisory boards, to 
combine missionaries and laymen, would it not be 
possible that a common basis of religious instruc- 
tion might be struck out ? — It might be. 

4030. You recognise that in native education 
some religious instruction is especially important? 
— I do. 

4031. Do you think the teachers should give the 
religious instruction in native schools ? — I cannot 
see how it could be done otherwise. It is very 
difficult to see how in practice it could be carried 
out otherwise. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 615 

4032. Except by the teachers ?— Except by the £* T ^ ^ 

i ■ r J ir j Mmr, C.M.Gr., 

teachers. ll.d., m.a., 

4033. You would not have a missionary super- F -^ 8 - 
intendent going in daily, as it were, to conduct July 31, 1908. 
that part of the teaching ? — He could not do it. 

He probably lives near one school, and he could do 
it at that school, but what of the dozen other 
schools ? 

4034. Therefore the teacher should have that 
function ? — Yes, if possible. 

4035. Would you make it a sine qua no)i for a 
teacher in a native school that he should be com- 
petent to give ethical instruction — as to the duty 
between man and man and between man and the 
State? — Yes : it would be quite an important thing 
to aim at. 

4036. Is there any arrangement at present in the 
training of teachers which tests that faculty? — 
Xo. for the reason that that has always been 
looked- upon as part of the duty of the Church to 
which the training school belongs. 

4037. But the training schools are under public 
control : at any rate they are supported by public 
funds ? — Yes. 

4038. Is there no guarantee at all that the 
teachers are being trained so as to be fit to give the 
simple religious instruction they have to teach ? — 
I do not think there is any guarantee known to 
the Government. There is the general guarantee 
that these institutions are managed by churches, 
and that that is conceived to be one of their main 
duties. 

4039. Is there, in your opinion, sufficient provi- 
sion made in the training schools for teachers, 
that the teachers shall have practice in teaching 
during the training course ? — I think so ; I think 
as much as we can attain at present. 

4040. Do you inculcate the necessity of having the 
school handy for the learning teacher to teach in ? 
— Yes ; it is an absolute necessity. 

4041. Is it so in all these training places — that 
they have schools close by the training schools ? — 
They all have practising schools attached to them. 



616 MINUTES OE EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M r -* T c MG 4042. Is their efficiency in that respect- tested 

llj)., k.A.i' during the course — their efficiency exhibited in 

E -^ s - teaching while they are themselves being trained ? 

July 3i,i9os. — They are tested every year by the visit of an 

inspector, who takes each pupil teacher by himself 

and sees him in front of a class. 

4043. He sees each pupil teacher teach a class, 
and judges him ? — Yes. 

4044. And is some record preserved of the relative 
proficiency of the pupil teachers in your Depart- 
ment? — Yes. Every year this is done, and a 
record is kept of the number of marks given f or 
such proficiency by the inspector in reference to 
each pupil, these marks being added to the marks 
obtainable for his written papers. 

4045. Would it not be possible to do more than 
we do without great expense in inculcating the 
necessity of teachers themselves learning some of 
the truths of agriculture, so that they might impart 
that learning afterwards to the native children ? 
There is very little done in that way ? — Next to 
nothing. 

4046. Is there any insuperable barrier in taking 
what I might call the practical as opposed to the 
book side of education and becoming more prac- 
tical men and women themselves ? — I scarcely see 
how you could make it very efficient without 
having the actual practice in gardening. 

4047. Do you not think some system which 
would establish that practice should be inculcated 
by the teachers ?— Most certainly it w^ould be a 
Yeij good system. 

4048. Is not that the bedrock of the objection to 
the present system — that it is not practical enough? 
— Yes, that is an objection. 

4049. You teach woodwork wherever you pos- 
sibly can? — Not only that; it is absolutely necessary 
on the part of every Transkeian teacher to get 
instruction in woodwork. The reason we have 
not been successful as regards agriculture is the 
practical difficulty of the situation of the schools. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 617 

4050. I want to make it clear that it is not any ] ^ 1 > l T ^^ 
antagonism on your part as head of the Education L l!d., m.a,|' 
Department ? — Quite the reverse. F -^ s - 

4051. You recognize as fully as anybody can j u iy 31, i9os r 
urge it that that is very desirable ? — Yes, and some 

of the inspectors have taken very great personal 
interest in it. 

4052. May I take it with regard to the proposed 
Inter-State Native College that you are aware it 
would start as an institution which would include 
both secondary and higher education, according to 
the requirements ? That is the idea ? — Yes ; but I 
do not quite understand what distinction would 
be made between secondary and higher education. 

4053. It would not be purely collegiate educa- 
tion. It would not be an analogy to the present 
South African College, say. bat rather an analogy 
to the old South African College which took 
classes of a lower grade ? — It could not possibly 
be otherwise, because you have not got your 
pupils. 

4054. It must work itself up, as has been the 
case with the European colleges ? — Exactly. 

4055. In your experience, which covers the time 
when a leading institution like the South 
African College was in that form, was there any 
practical difficulty in the w^ay of getting inspection 
of the work done in the lower grades while 
leaving the higher grades of the collegiate course ? 
—No. 

4056. Is partial inspection possible ? — Quite 
easily. It could be arranged according to classes ; 
you would stop at a certain class, if thought 
advisable. 

4057. Practically, is it possible ? — I do- not see 
any difficulty. 

4058. You do not see why there should not be 
such a system in connection with the Inter-State 
College in the event of its receiving State support ? 
— Just so ; but one would always wish it clearly 
borne in mind that if you are going to have a 
college you must have suitable students for that 



618 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Dr. Thomas college. At the present moment we are rather 
lljx, k.A.,"' disposed to put on a storey before we have built 
F.R.8. the storey below it. What would be necessary for 
July 31, 1908. a real college would be first of all a system of 
elementary schools, then next a system of higher- 
grade schools— not using that term in any yery 
exalted sense, but schools that would train beyond 
Standard YI. Now what I feel is that this so- 
called college will require to start with pupils 
who are practically at Standard YI. 

4059. Possibly, but at the same time you recog- 
nize that when you have something like 100 
students studying, say, in America from South 
Africa, the need is a yery real one ? — Yes, there is 
real need for a higher type of school. 1 would 
start with such a school, for example, as is ex- 
emplified by what we call in Cape Colony a high 
school; only allowing it to begin with Standard 
YI., or eyen for the first year or two with Standard 
V., and letting it gradually work its way up. 

4060. Naturally, it will find its own ley el accord- 
ing to the number of pupils of a higher order ?— r 
Exactly. 

4061. Taking the supposition that there would 
be only half-a-dozen who were capable of going to 
the higher examinations — to take degrees perhaps 
— you would provide for the education of those 
persons in South Africa ? — Most assuredly, if they 
asked. 

4062. You would not drive them abroad ? — Most 
assuredly not. 

4063. You know they are not provided for now ? 
—I would strongly oppose that statement — that 
they are not provided for now. the truth being 
that such students have not come forward. As I 
have indicated more than once, we have not more 
than one student per annum who passes matricu- 
lation ; that has been the average for the last 
twenty years. There is no getting over that fact, 
and I always would wish to impress upon the 
white promoters that they ought to recognize facts 
like that and make their schemes accordingly. 



SELECT COMMITTEE OX XATIVE EDUCATION. 619 

4064. Can you perhaps hand in a return showing Dr. Thomas 
the results of University examinations, taking ll.d., m.'a.', 
school higher and matriculation ? — I think I can. F ^ s - 
It would take a little time to do it. I have actually July 31, 190& 
the return made out for matriculation in my office. 

It is that return which has formed the basis of my 
statement to you just now about there being only 
one student per annum in twenty years. 

4065. Of course the native educationist says, 
u You give us no opportunity to reach matricula- 
tion under the existing system " ? — The Department 
gives no opportunity, but the opportunity has 
existed in Lovedale for a large number of years, 
with the results just indicated. They have had 
these classes open to all, and they have had well- 
paid teachers in charge of them. 

4066. You would certainly be averse to any 
effort to establish two native colleges at present, 
one to be called the Queen Victoria Memorial 
College ?— I think that would be quite absurd ; 
but what I should like to see done, and what I am 
trying to do myself, is to get a considerable number 
of the common schools to advance as far as Stan- 
dard V:, the distribution of them to be on some 
sort of principle. We seek, for example, to have 
in each inspector's circuit a place selected by the 
inspector as a place where pupils can be conducted 
beyond Standard IY. Then we have in Grahams- 
town a joint school, meaning by joint school a 
school managed by clergvmen of different denom- 
inations, who have made an agreement with me 
that when their separate schools have children 
reaching Standard IV. they shall not try to retain 
them in those schools, but shall send them in to 
this central school in which all the denominations 
are interested. That has been a great success in 
Grahamstown. Such a system in operation through- 
out the Colony at suitable places would prepare 
the way for such an institution as you are now 
referring to. It would be a feeder to it. What I 
am anxious to see is that the system of education 
shall be continuous and graded, namely, first 



620 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Muii T c°M g elementary schools as the basis ; secondly, schools 
ll.d., kJC of the type I have just been indicating to you ? 
f.r.s. taking up high- school work and beginning about 
July si, 1908. Standard Y.; and lastly, the one central institu- 
tion which would be fed by all these. Now, it is 
the second of these groups that at the present 
moment is not sufficiently developed. If I might 
take the opportunity here, I should wish to say 
that it has been stated more than once by the 
white promoters that I have been opposed to the 
Native Inter- State College. In no sense has that 
been so, save on the lines I have indicated to you, 
namely, that I wanted it to be on a solid founda- 
tion, and that there should be as little of a gaseous 
element about it as possible. 

4067. Taking it for a fact that there is this 
strong movement, would it not solve itself ? Would 
not the demand for the higher education test 
whether or not there were pupils wishing to be 
raised so high ? — Yes. The movement being well 
founded, I should not be at all averse to the 
institution. 

4068. Nor to its being started ? — Nor to its being 
started, but started on the lines in which the 
world has started white education. There is no 
reason why such a school should not be brought 
into existence. 

4069. And grow ? — And grow ; but let those 
who start it begin in this humble, sensible way, 
instead of having absurdly high notions of college 
courses straight away at the outset. Some of the 
schemes which have come to me in reference to 
this college are so absurdly out of keeping with 
the facts that one hesitates much to have any- 
thing to say with them. For example, when it was 
begun at first by Mr. Sargent, of the Transvaal, 
the proposal was to buy Lovedale for £100,000 and 
to develop a university college there. Well, they 
have gone away from that now. They have got a 
great deal more sensible as things have gone on. 
But even the last proposal which has been offered 
to the High Commissioner is just about as absurd 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 621 

in other directions, a proposal being made to ^: r T c°M g 
appoint a whole set of full-fledged prof essors. lljx, m.a.,' 

4070. But we have ^ot away from all that ? — I FR 8 
am very glad to hear that you have got away from j u i y 31, 1908 
it. 

4071. It is taking a practical shape ? — I am glad 
to hear you say so. 

4072. It is a practical line, is it not, endeavour- 
ing to cut the coat according to the cloth ?— I 
should hope so, but I must say that I am still 
receiving evidence of what I am bound to consider 
Utopian schemes. For example, not very long ago 
one of the white promoters called at my office and 
gave me the information that it was proposed to 
spend £40.000 on a building. That seems to me 
absolutely ridiculous at the present stage. My 
advice is what I should say to the promoters of a 
white school in similar circumstances : " Form a 
good plan for a future building, and build such a 
portion of it as will suit your present needs, capable 
of development and capable of extension in the 
future. Use a part of the £40,000 for that purpose 
— such a sum, for example, as we required for the 
erection of a building for Dale College, King 
William's Town. £8,000 perhaps would more 
than suffice to start with. Use the rest of your 
money for other purposes, namely, endowments, 
current expenses and so forth. 

4073. In other words, walk gradually ? — Walk 
gradually, and take facts into consideration and 
not fancies. 

4074. The only other question is with regard to 
grants in aid of pupil teachers. Was the scheme 
you referred to as being propounded to you that 
by which the Government would pay £4 in the 
first year, £8 in the second year and £12 in the 
third year ?— That was the scheme. 

4075. You said that would involve greatly in- 
creased expenditure ? — Double. 

4076. But if you assigned the sum available for 
the different institutions without increasing the 
expenditure, it would not be at all unworkable to 



622 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

m^cmc 8 a PP or tion.it amongst the different areas in fair 

ll.d., ma.,*' proportion ? — No, but the institutions would ob- 

f.ks. j ec ^ because they would not thereby get an income 

July si, i9<)8. from Government which would be equal to that 

which they get at the present time. 

4077. If there was no difference to what they 
get now, you could devote it between the three 
years and assign it to pupils who had shown 
themselves worthy of it ? — That would meet my 
view entirely if the latter scheme were adopted. 

4078. You quite agree it is a bad ethical example 
to the pupil teachers to know their names are 
being used for the purpose of getting money from 
the Government and they do not get any special 
particular benefit from it ? — Yes. 

4079. It might not be healthy for the young 
people themselves ? — I do not think it is good at 
all. 

4080. Mr. Murray.'] In connection with secon- 
dary education, will it be necessary to get a special 
Act passed by Parliament allowing of payments 
being made for secondary education in native 
schools ? — JN ot a special Act, but a resolution of 
Parliament under the old Act. 

4081. At present no native schools get grants for 
secondary education ? — No. 

4082. Do you think the time has arrived when 
this resolution should be taken? — I should be 
quite glad to see it done, but done in accordance 
with Parliamentary requirements, the resolution 
specifying, as it does in the case of white schools, 
the grants that would be available and the con- 
ditions under which they would be issued. 

4083. Would it be necessary to specify the 
schools too ? — I think not. The truth is I am 
strongly of opinion there should be only one such 
school to start with. 

4084. At such a school do you think that, as far 
as possible, the payment of satisfactory fees should 
be insisted upon ? — Yes. I hold that as a private 
opinion — that it is not at all desirable to make a 
school of the kind a charitable institution ; I 
believe it to be bad for the people. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 023 

4085. Could you explain the difference between Dr. Thomas 
the grants allowed under the Act to B. and C. ll!d. m.a., v 
schools ? — Yes. although it is> rather a longish F -^- s - 
story, and I would be speaking from my reading j u i y si, 1908. 
rather than from my personal information. 

4086. Perhaps I can put the question a little 
differently. I understand that a C. school cannot 
obtain as high grants as a B. school at present ? — 
Yes. That is partly clue to two things. First of 
all, in the original arrangement the grant was 
lower : but then, secondly, Parliament in 1905 
increased the grant to B. schools on the under- 
standing that the £-to-10s. principle would come 
into force. 

4087. Now the grants to C. schools are lower 
than for B. schools ? — Yes. 

4088. But there are C. schools doing quite as 
high work as B. schools, are there not ? — Yes, and 
often in the same district, if you go to the Frontier. 

4089. Then do not you think, in common fair- 

«/ * 

ness, the time has arrived when C. schools should 
be allowed .to receive equal grants to B. schools, 
other things being equal ? — Yes. What 1 would 
suggest — and have drawn particular attention 
to in one of my reports — is the undesirability 
of having such a name as aborigines' schools 
nowadays. At the time the original regu- 
lations were laid down the distinction that wa< 
made was quite explicable. Now there is a very 
little distinction, and it would be far better to call 
the whole of them mission schools and treat them 
practically on the same lines. Besides it would 
simplify matters very much in administration. 

4090. Would there be any possibility, for the 
purpose of getting correct statistics, of arranging 
for the classification of pupils attending school as 
European mixed races and natives ? — Yes. I 
think we could do that. Under the old statistics 
of the Department there was no distinction of 
colour, and when I introduced a separate column 
for " coloured " it included natives as well as 



624 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

mfr T cM& c °l° ure d- The further step might be taken of 
ll.d., m.a.',' classifying them as Europeans, coloured and 

f.r.s. natives. 
juiy 31, 1908. 4091. Could you take that on your own initia- 
tive ? — Oh, yes, quite well. I think an immense 
deal of good has come out of making the distinc- 
tion that we have made already, because it tended 
to draw attention to schools that contained white 
and coloured pupils together. These schools are 
consequently very much fewer in number than 
they used to be. 

4092. In connection with native schools, could 
not some recommendation be made that once a 
week lessons should be given, where the teacher 
was capable, on the very elementary facts of science 
which European children almost pick up in their 
homes ? — Yes. The difficulty would be in regard 
to the teachers. 

4093. Mr. T. SearleJ] In regard to these grants, 
I am not quite clear. You said that the institu- 
tions used the grants and put them info their 
general funds, and made the pupil teachers pay 
fees all the same ? — Yes. 

4094. You are speaking, of course, purely of the 
native training institutions ? — Yes. 

4095. We will say there is a class of 20 pupil 
teachers. Ten out of these get grants. Is it not 
rather that they divide the grants for the 10 
amongst the whole 20, and make the whole 20 pay 
a proportion of the fees, and they put the amount 
of the 10 grants into the whole school ? — Yes ; but 
that is just the thing I object to, as it gives no 
encouragement to the capable children, because 
the capable children have got to pay exactly the 
same fees to the institution as those who are of a 
lower standard of efficiency. 

4096. But, as a matter of fact, it is recognised 
that that shouJ d be done ; that that is where the 
Department says, " "W e cannot give grants to the 
whole 20, but will for 10," and you divide it as 
you think best ? — Yes, but still it is very far from 
a right way of proceeding. We shall never get 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 625 

the best results out of a system like that. I think Dr. Thomas 
it is only fair to the institutions to say that it is lljxjK,'' 
only a question of finance. A settlement between F -Rs. 
them and the Department, which would not put j u i y 3^ 1908. 
them in a worse financial position than they are 
at the present moment, would not fail of going 
through on that score. 

4097. What I wanted to make clear was that 
the Department are fully aware of this, and there 
is no reflection on the institution ? — Oh, quite. I 
did not want to convey that idea at all. Not only 
so. but I believe that it originally came from the 
Department. Might I say that, notwithstanding 
the difference of opinion in reference to these 
grants, the institutions have worked most loyally 
with the Department towards providing teachers 
for the Transkei. There is no question about that. 

4098. Mr. van Root/.] Schools in the General 
Council Districts, I understand, are administered 
on more democratic principles than the schools 
outside the General Councils ? — Democratic in the 
sense that the Council has something to say by 
reason of the grant which it gives to them, but in 
reality the manager of the school is the missionary 
superintendent. 

4099. But where there is more local contribution 
you favour moie local say ? — I would, and I indi- 
cated the last time I was here how something of a 
local say might be given for these institutions — in 
the case of General Council schools. 

4100. As the system advances you favour in- 
creased local administration ? — Most assuredly. 

4101. And, of course, as they advance they 
naturally see more and more the need and value 
of education, and will probably be more willing 
to contribute themselves more freely to native 
education ? — Yes. I think that already they are 
willing to contribute more freely. 

4102. Comparing the cheaper mode in which 
the natives live as a rule, they would be just as 
well able to contribute to the education of their 
children as Europeans '? — Yes. I think a great 

[A. 1—08.] Native Education. RR 



626 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

M r -' T r°Mr s change has come over the country of recent years, 

ll!d., m.a.,'' and I would be strongly in favour of not burden- 

f.r.s. j n g the churches with education but asking the 

July 31, 1908. people to contribute for education according to 

their means. 

4103. .Naturally, unless the natives increase their 
local contributions in proportion as education 
amongst them increases and rises, the State must 
arrive at the point where the financial burden 
will be getting too great ? — Yes. Of course the 
same thing would be true with reference to white 
education. 

4104. Quite so, because we find the State has- 
already to refuse schools where there is urgent 
demand for them ? — -Yes. We have evidence of 
the result of that in the statistics which have come 
out to-day. We were asked by the Government some 
months back to stop giving grants to new schools,, 
and the result to-day is that we have 1,700 fewer 
white children on the roll than we had last year. 

4105. With the vast native population compared 
with the Europeans in this country, the burden 
would be felt so much more by the State by push- 
ing native education too far ? — Yes, but we would 
not wish to put an obstacle in the way of native 
education and what would be a fair sum to devote 
to that purpose out of the central chest ought to be 
devoted to it. That is my strong opinion, the un- 
derstanding being that the local people should 
contribute according to their means. 

4106. I believe you have agreed it is a healthy 
principle that there should be more local contri- 
bution and more decentralisation in administra- 
tion generally ? — Yes. If you take the Council 
schools, the value of the system consists in that 
the Council taxes the native and gets money into 
its coffers, and pays out a fixed sum to the teacher 
from that. In other districts where there is no 
Council the portion of the teacher's salary that is 
not given bv the Government is a verv uncertain 
thing. The consequence is that a low type of 
teacher is got as a rule. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 627 

4107. But as they advanced the parents them- m\^°mg 
selves would be more willing to contribute towards ll.d., m.'/C 
education ? — I think so, but at the same time I say FJ ^ S - 

it is desirable to spread the Council system, juiy 31, 1908. 
When you find a district suitable for the intro- 
duction of the Council system, the change should 
be made. It would, in my opinion, be very unwise 
to introduce the Council system into every 
Magistracy right away, because they are at different 
stages of advancement in civilization, and you 
should take that into account. 

4108. Chairman.] Do you think that the system 
of Government giving £1 for 10s. contributed 
locally is necessary to be continued indefinitely ? 
— It was introduced with the idea that the time 
would come when we should ask them to pay £1 
for £1. This was merely a start. 

4109. As a matter of fact, in the Council districts 
they pay 15s. to £1 for the principal teachers, do 
they not? — They do, but the £1 to 10s. system 
applies only to mission schools in the Colony. 

4110. So that in these district schools they are 
actually doing more than in many mission 
schools ? — Yes. 

4111. In fact in nearly all the mission schools ? 
— Yes. There are wonderful differences, I must 
tell you, in the mission schools. Sometimes you 
will find a church contributing more than £ per £. 
Speaking generally, we find, on calculation, that 
£1 to 10s. would be a fair average to ask in the 
Colony. I would not wish to make it £1 for 10s. 
in the Transkei if [ knew that I was going to have 
Council schools all through, because that would 
be another solution which would perhaps be a 
better solution. In my answer to Mr. Murray, 
when he wanted to know whether it would not be 
desirable to give aborigines' schools the same 
grants as the mission schools, I said certainly I 
saw no reason against it, other things being equal ; 
but what would be a better solution still perhaps 
would be to have the Council system spread 
throughout all the magistracies, because then the 



628 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Muix T c°^a Q. ues ti° n °f grants would be solved at the same 
ll.d., m.a.,'' time. We find the present grants given to the 

f.r.s. Council ample for our purpose. 
juiy 31, 1908. 4112. You would not think it practicable to 

insist on the £ per £ principle in the near future ? 

— I do not think so. 

4113. Even of £1 for 15s. ?— No ; I would take 
time. 

4114. You do not think any change in this par- 
ticular can take place now ? — No. You must work 
with these things very cautiously. 

The Reverend John Smith Moffat, C.M.G., 
examined. 

jJhnl^Ith 4115. Chairman.'] You have a large experience 

Moffat, of native affairs ? — Well, of native affairs, but not 

'_! ' of education specially. 

July 31, 1908. 4116. Your experience is mainly in Bechuana- 

land, is it not ? — Bechuanaland and Matabeleland, 

and I was for a time in Basutoland. My school 

experience is in Bechuanaland. 

4117. Have you had schools under you in 
Bechuanaland ? — Yes, but very elementary. My 
missionary connection with Bechuanaland ended 
in 1879, and of course in those days schools were 
quite elementary ; there was no system. 

4118. And have you had any direct experience 
of native education since 1879 ? — Not since. 

4119. Are you in touch with those who are 
immediately connected with native education ? — 
I have been in Central Africa — in Nyasaland — and 
I have frequent correspondence with them about 
these matters. 

4120. Do you think that the educational system 
in Nyasaland compares favourably with the educa- 
tional system here ? — It does, because they have a 
great deal in their favour. They have so large an 
influence over the natives. It is not interfered 
with by the causes which affect it in the Colony ; 
I mean oppositions and differences of opinion 
which there ma}^ be between the missionaries and 
others ; they have an unrestricted field. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 629 

4121. Do you think we can get valuable lessons The Rev 
for native education in this Colony from education 'Voffat, 1 ' 1 
in Nyasaland ? — One feature which struck me C ^ G - 
most during my stay there was the way in which j u i y 31,1908. 
the services of pupils were utilised as soon as 
possible to carry on the educational work — I mean 

as monitors and teachers in village schools. 

4122. You think that is a good system ? — In that 
country it certainly is, because they want to cover 
as large an amount of ground as they can, and it 
seems to have a good effect on the boys themselves. 
Of course, I am speaking of it from a missionary 
point of view. It puts them to the proof, and it 
stimulates them in their anxiety to have further 
instruction themselves. 

4123. Had you any definite opinions which you 
wished to bring before the Committee in regard to 
native education ? — Well, I have not been mixed 
up with the discussion of the question very much, 
but there is one matter which has come to the sur- 
face and w r hich is within my knowledge, and that 
is in the question of teaching in the vernacular — 
the advisibility of using the vernacular as far as 
possible. 

4124. What is your view on that point ? — I do 
not think you can teach to any purpose without 
using the vernacular. 

4125. Would that apply in the whole of the 
course or only in the lower standards? — In the 
first part of the course — the earlier stages — say up 
to Standard III., so far as I know what the 
standards are, as 1 really have been so little in touch 
with these matters. I should say the first part of 
the course ought undoubtedly to be in the verna- 
cular, otherwise it is utterly useless ; I mean in 
the district village schools. 

4126. You say that speaking from your experi- 
ence ? — Yes. I gave 15 hours a week for several 
years in Bechuanaland to school work, and I never 
did anything but use the vernacular there. 1 
taught them English as a subject, but in the school 
I used the vernacular entirely. 



630 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

T ke Rev 4127. Did you find any difficulty in dealing with 
°Moff^, 1 arithmetic, for instance, in the vernacular ? — None 
<mo. whatever, as far as explaining the things to the 
July 3^1908. natives was concerned; but of course they were 
only the mere rudiments of arithmetic — arithme- 
tic, say, up to proportion. 

4128. So far you could go in the vernacular ? — 
Decidedly. I could not have gone in anything 
else. I do not know how they do it otherwise. 
We substituted the English names of the numerals 
for the native ones, because the native ones are 
very cumbrous, but that was very easily done. 
They all knew the numbers and used them in 
their arithmetic class. 

4129. Do you think the instruction in the ver- 
nacular ought to be continued in the higher classes, 
whatever the medium of education may be ? — 
No ; I do not see why they should need instruc- 
tion in their vernacular, as a subject in itself. 

4130. You do not think it is desirable to insist 
on that in the higher stages ? — Not so far as I 
know the Bantu. The Bantu generally are 
well up in their own language, and all speak 
it well. A grammatical solecism would be 
so laughed at that you never hear of one 
from them. I am speaking, of course, of the 
Bantu retaining the old Bantu form of govern- 
ment. I do not refer to countries where 
despotism has trampled all that out since, such 
as Zululand and Matabeleland, but amongst the 
Bantu in their own condition they almost have 
the rudiments of parliamentary government. They 
have constant public discussions about their 
affairs, and therefore have a sort of schooling in 
their own language. I would not instruct in the 
vernacular, but would use the vernacular as the 
vehicle of teaching, and would lose no opportunity 
of instructing them in the English language. The 
reason for the last remark is that there is next to 
no literature for them in the vernacular. It will 
be a long time, if ever, before they are provided 
with literature, except the Bible and books imme- 
diately connected with it. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 631 

4131. Have you anything further to suggest on The Rev. 
the subject ? — I do not think so. I do not know how J °MoffSf 
I came to be summoned, because I cannot say o.mxj. 
much on the subject. I have been an observer, j u i y 31, 1908. 
and have taken an interest in matters from the 
outside in regard to the interior missions, but the 
particular country I have had most to do with in 
regard to education was in such a backward state 

in my time — and I am afraid it is not much better 
now — namely, Bechuanaland. 

4132. Mr. Murray.'] From your general know- 
ledge of the natives, do you consider that we 
should continue to give them the same education 
and on the same lines as is given to Europeans ? — 
Yes, but I think it ought to be associated with 
religious teaching. I do not like the kind of thing 
that I have seen amongst educated natives who 
have not had a religious principle to affect their 
lives. They become decidedly disagreeable and 
mischievous people. 

4133. But the native teachers are practically all 
educated at religious institutions ? — Yes, so far as 
I know they are nearly all what might be called 
religious men. 

4134. What more than that can Government do ? 
— I do not want Government to meddle with the 
religious part of the question at all, so long as the 
Government does what it thinks right in subsidis- 
ing the secular education. But I do not believe in 
secular education pure and simple for natives. 

4135. Then you consider it is the missionary 
superintendent who should see to the chief 
education given in the schools ? — Yes. 

4136. And when the practical difficulty arises 
that the missionary superintendent has too much 
to do, you at all events would not throw the onus 
upon the Government? — No, because that opens 
the vexed question of denominations. 

4137. So that practically there is no solution ? — 
I do not know, judging from my own experience, 
why the missionary should not be able to see to the 
religious cultivation of the pupils. As you say, 



bo2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE 

Joh he ? e \ ^ e teachers are generally men who have been 

°MoffS, 1 through the hands of missionaries, and it does not 

cjLG. require very much effort on the part of the 

July 31, 1908. missionary who has the oversight of a school to see 
that the religious teaching is good. 

4138. Have you had anything to do with this 
movement for the higher education of natives ? — 
The Inter-State College ? 

4139. Yes ? — Only that I attended the recent 
Conference at Lovedale, but I did so more as an 
interested friend ; I did not wish to exercise any 
influence one way or the other. 

4140. You have no very decided opinion on the 
matter which you wish to bring before the Com- 
mittee ? — Only that on principle — perhaps I am an 
old man and a little conservative — I do not like 
these big departures. I like to see existing insti- 
tutions grow. I have seen one or two very false 
starts. I saw one in Bechuanaland. It was that 
which separated me from the work of the mission. 
It was quite a false start. I am distrustful of 
anything like big departures. 

4141. You seem to think if we provide secondary 
education, then later on further development 
might take place ? — Yes, but as a matter of growth, 
and not in making a jump forward. 



APPENDIX. 



[A.] 

EXTRACTS FROM REGULATIONS AND ADDI- 
TIONAL REGULATIONS RELATING TO 
GRANTS TO NATIVE MISSION SCHOOLS. 



Regulations (Pamphlet No. 13). 
Mission Schools. 

32. Aid is granted to mission schools in eligible districts or 
localities previously approved by the Government, as well within 
as out of towns and villages, in order to provide for the education 
of those portions of the population who are wholly unable of them- 
selves to found schools. 

33. The classification of mission schools with their respective 
grants is as follows : — 

Class I. — Where there is a series of schools, infant, juvenile 
and industrial, the annual allowance shall be £75. 

Class II. — Where the children form only one school, the 
annual allowance shall be £30. 

Class III. — To schools at out-stations, the annual allowance 
shall be £15. 

34. When the average attendance at a Mission School exceeds 
100 children, an annual grant in addition to £75 will be available 
for teachers' salaries, provided that for every pound so given 20s» 
are contributed locally, the maximum for each additional 100 
children not to exceed £40. 

35. No portion of the Government grant shall be appropriated 
otherwise than to the support of the teacher or teachers of the 
school for the performance of their duty as teachers. 

36. Before any new grant, or renewal or augmentation of any 
grant, is made, the Superintendent-General of Education shall 
be satisfied that proper arrangements are made for the main- 
tenance and management of the school, and that the local income 
of the school, with the grant in aid, can efficiently provide for 
the secular instruction of the children of the locality in which 
the school is placed. 

37. The schools shall be under the management and control of 
the churches or missionary bodies with which they are connected, 
but shall be subject to inspection by the Superintent-General of 
Education, or his deputy duly appointed by the Governor, who 



11 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

shall have the right of entering the school at any time during 
school hours, of examining into the state of the buildings and 
the school furniture, of ascertaining the progress of the children 
under instruction, of inquiring generally into the efficiency of the 
school in regard to the district or locality in which it is placed, 
and of calling for such returns as he may require, in order to 
obtain satisfactory information on these subjects. 

38. Suitable school buildings, furniture, and a recreation 
ground must be provided, to the satisfaction of the Government. 

39. The secular instruction given during the school hours shall 
include, at least, reading, writing and elementary arithmetic. 

40. No scholars shall be compelled to attend for religious 
instruction without the consent of their parents or guardians. 

41. In every mission school, enjoying the full grant of £75 per 
annum, there should be a qualified teacher for a separate infant 
school, and two qualified teachers for the juvenile school, of 
whom one shall superintend the girls' sewing classes in addition 
to assisting in the general business of the school. 

Trade Classes in Mission Schools. 

42. A grant not exceeding £50 per annum may be made 
towards maintaining an industrial class in connection with a 
mission school. 

43. The minimum number of pupils attending such class shall 
be twenty. 



Aborigines^ Schools. 

44. 1st Grade (Institutions). — Where school is kept for not 
less than four hours daily by a duly qualified teacher, assisted by 
another qualified teacher, and the average daily attendance is not 
less than 100, a fixed annual allowance will be made in aid of 
salaries not exceeding £100 for the principal teacher, £40 for 
the assistant teacher, and £10 for the female superintending the 
needlework of the girls, provided that an average attendance of 
at least 20 be maintained in the sewing class. 

45. 2nd Grade. — Where school is kept for not less than four 
hours daily by a teacher qualified to give instruction in English 
as well as in the native language, and the average daily attendance 
is not less than 50, a fixed annual allowance will be made in aid 
of salaries, not exceeding £40 for the teacher, and *£10 for the 
female superintending the needlework of the girls, provided that 
an average attendance of at least 20 be maintained in the sewing 
class. 



*In practice a grant of £8 per annum is usually given for a sewing mistress 
alone ; but it is preferred that a female assistant teacher should be employed, to 
combine with her general duties that of sewing mistress also, and a grant of £16 
per annum. 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. Hi 

46. 3rd Grade. — Where the teacher is capable of giving in- 
struction only in the native language, a fixed annual allowance 
will be made in aid of salary, not exceeding £20, provided the 
average daily attendance be not less than 25. 

47. Apprenticeship of Boys. — To encourage native youths to 
become skilled workmen, an allowance of £15 per annum, main- 
tenance money, will be made to males who, after one year's 
probation, shall have entered into a definite engagement with the 
authorities of the institution with which they are connected for a 
further period not exceeding four years nor less than two years, 
as apprentices to one of the following trades : — Carpentry, 
wagonmaking, blacksmith's work, tailoring, shoemaking, printing, 
and book-binding. This amount will also be allowed during the 
probationary year. 

48. Apprenticeship of Girls. — To encourage the female portion 
of the native youth to become habituated to and skilled in the 
performance of the duties of domestic civilized life, an allowance 
of £10 per annum, maintenance money, will be made to females 
who, after three months' probation, shall have entered into a 
definite engagement with the authorities of the institution, for a 
further period not exceeding two years nor less than one year, as 
apprentices to household work. 

49. It shall be incumbent on the authorities to provide suitable 
elementary education, either morning or evening, for all appren- 
tices. 

50. Boarders. — The number of those who can be received as 
apprentices being limited, it is desirable to bring other of the 
native youth under the influence of the missionary's home as 
much as possible, by enabling them to reside in the institution, 
for the purpose of being educated. For this object an allowance 
of £10 to £12 per annum (the exact amount being determined 
by the locality) will be made towards the maintenance of native 
boarders actually resident within the institution, and having, 
besides the ordinary school work, some industrial occupation, 
such as field or garden labour, or special training for pupil 
teachers. 

51. Boarders and apprentices may be considered as forming 
part of the required average of daily attendance, but their whole 
number should considerably exceed that of those for whom main- 
tenance grants are made. 

52. Trade Instructor. — To train native youths more effectually 
in the practical knowledge of trades, an annual allowance not 
exceeding £120 will be given in aid of the salary of a qualified 
teacher in such of the trades mentioned above as may, with the 
consent of the Government, be attached to a native industrial 
institution : provided that no allowance shall be given, as a rule, 
for more than two trade departments in the same 'institution, nor 
for any trade department which is attended by less than fifteen 
resident native youths on probation before apprenticeship, or ten 



IV APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

resident native youths under definite engagement with the authori- 
ties of the institution as apprentices in the trade department for 
which an allowance is made. 

53. Outfit. — An allowance not exceeding £30 will be given in 
aid of the outfit of tools, fittings and materials for trade depart- 
ments which may, with the consent of the Government, be 
attached to a native industrial institution. 

54. Trade Classes. — An annual allowance not exceeding £50 
will be given in aid of the expenses of an industrial department 
or trade class attached, with the consent of the Government, to a 
native industrial institution not in receipt of any allowance under 
the foregoing sections, or to a native day school, provided that 
the industrial department or trade class is daily attended by a 
satisfactory number of young persons of suitable age. 

Additional Regulations, Nos. 2, 3, 4, 5 and 8. 

(Government Notice No. 292, 1905.) 

(2) Mission Schools. 

Grants in aid of the salaries of the principal teacher and each 
assistant teacher in any Mission School shall be made on the 
following scale : — A grant not exceeding £75 per annum for the 
principal ; a grant not exceeding £45 for each assistant. 

(3) Mission Schools (Additional). 

All salary grants shall be supplemented from local sources by 
an amount reckoned at the rate of 10s. for every £l of grant. 

(4) Native Training Schools. 

Grants in aid of the salaries of principals and teachers of 
Native Training Schools where the Government is satisfied that 
such a school is required shall be made on the following scale : — 
A grant not exeeding £200 for the principal teacher ; a grant 
not exceeding £150 for every trained and certificated European 
teacher. 

(5) Native Training Schools {Additional). 

All salary grants shall be supplemented by an equal amount 
from local sources, in reckoning which, board and (or) residence 
if provided by the local authorities may be taken into account. 

(8) 3Iissions and Training Schools and Industrial 
Institutions (Additional). 

In the case of new buildings, erected in accordance with plans 
approved by the Education Department, to be set apart or vested 
to the satisfaction of the Department, and used in perpetuity for 
educational purposes only, aid, in the shape of rent may be 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. V 

granted to the local managers. Such aid shall be calculated at 
the rate of £2 10s. 4d. per cent, per annum (i.e. one-half the 
usual interest and redemption charges on a loan repayable over a 
period of forty years) on the value of the buildings, and such aid 
shall cease after forty annual payments have been made. 



[B.] 

STATISTICS OF NATIVE TRAINING SCHOOLS IN 
1892 AND 1908. 



Colony. 




No. on 


Roll. 






1908. 


1892. 


Fort Beaufort ... 


... Healdtown ... 


155 


36 


Hersehel... 


Bensonvale ... 


72 


— 


K.W.T 


... St. Matthew's 


127 


— 


Stutterheim 


Emgwali 


50 


10 


Victoria East ... 


. . Lovedale 


. 118 


36 


Territories. 








Engcobo ... 


... All Saints' (E.C.) .. 


34 


— 


— 


Clarkebury ... 


84 


* 


Ngqeleni... 


Bunting ville 


33 


— 


Ngqamakwe 


Bly the wood 


131 


37 


Qumbu ... 


Shawbury ... 


58 


— 


Umtata ... 


Umtata 


58 


— 



920 



119 



* Four passes are recorded for this school at the examination preceding- the 
inspector. 



[C] 

STATISTICS OF ABORIGINES' SCHOOLS (ORDER 
"C") IN THE TRANSKEIAN TERRITORIES IN 

1892 AND 1907. 



No. of Schools 

Enrolment 

Attendance 



4th Qr, 

1892. 

273 
15,193 
10,965 



4th Qr. 

1907. 

770 
45,936 
36,211 



In : (-ease. 

497 
30,743 • 
25,246 



Increase, 
per cent. 

182 
202 
230 



The rate of attendance has increased during this fifteen year 
period from 72 to 79 per cent. 



VI 



APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 



[D.] 

STATISTICS OF NATIYE EDUCATION, 1892 AND 

1907. 

1904. 
Native Population of Transkeian Territories ... 893,824 

Proportion 5-14 equals at least 25 % (see Census 

Eeport, 1904, p. lxxx.) ... 223,456 

At C and C Schools in Territories 43,245 

Native Territories. 
Classification of Pupils in Standards (Native Schools). 





1892. 
p. 49. 


190 


7. 




Num- 
ber. 


6 
\ bs) 


Num- 
ber. 


6 

P-i c 

O 


Sub-Standards 


4,759 


49- 


23,559 


56*4 


Standard I. 


1,521 


16- 


5,747 


13-8 


II 


1,273 


13- 


4,965 


11*9 


Ill 


685 


7 * 


3,550 


8-5-. 


IV 


157 


1-5 


2,282 


5 • 5 


V 


32 


•5 


1,090 


2-6 


VI 


5 




509 


1-2 


VII. 






... 


... 


Ex-Standard 






... 


... 


Part 1 






482 


... 


2 






221 


... 


3 






105 


... 



COMMITTEE ON XATIYE EDUCATION. 



VII 



[E.] 

STATISTICS REGARDING THE OPERATION OF 
THE GLEN GREY ACT AS REGARDS EDUCA- 
TION. 

An Asterisk (°) placed against the name of a Division denotes that such 
Division falls under the operation of the Glen Grey Act. 









^ 






.2 


Under 
G.G. 
Act. 


Territory. 


Magistracy. 


(1904 Census 
Total Non- 
European 
Population. 


Census. 

Total. 
5—14. 


Total 

Enrol- 
ment, 

30/9/07. 


ft 




East Griqua- 


Maclear ... 


4,829 


1,345 


239 


18 




land. 
















Matatiele 


32,627 


9,606 


1,822 


19 


s 




Mount Ay lift ... 


1G,738 


5,264 


861 


16 






Mount Currie ... 


10,697 


2,820 


632 


22 


-■!:• 




Mount Fletcher 


23,992 


6,962 


1,312 


19 






Mount Frere ... 


32,765 


9,271 


3,583 


39 


6 




Qumbu ... 


31,160 


8,812 


3,001 


34 


A 




Tsolo 


31,402 


9,265 


2,850 


31 


* 




Umzimkulu 


32,574 


9,956 


2,480 


25 




Tembuland ... 


Elliot 


6,241 


1,523 


101 


7 


8 




Elliotdale 


29,145 


7,169 


348 


5- 


O 




Engcobo 


59,622 


15,973 


3,069 


19 


$ 




Nqanduli 


35,318 


9,854 


1,586 


16 






St. Mark's 


37,145 


10,870 


1,496 


14 


* 




Umtata ... 


41,784 


11,305 


2,494 


22 






Xalanga 


14,161 


4,208 


1,689 


40 


* 


Transkei 


Butterworth 


18,625 


5,143 


2,401 


47 


e- 




Iduty wa 


27,279 


7,619 


1,346 


18 


^ 




Kentani... 


34,048 


9,461 


2,123 


22 


s 




Nqamakwe 


33,977 


9,934 


5,003 


50 


o 




Tsomo ... 


19,86 


5,984 


2,692 


4£ 


£- 




Willow vale 


42,225 


11,563 


3,139 


27 




Pondoland . . . 


Bizana ... 


33,022 


10,273 


281 


3^ 






Flagstaff 


25,903 


7,512 


593 


8 






Libode ... 


24,795 


7,550 


350 


5 






Lusikisiki 


42,169 


11,830 


339 


3 






Xgqeleni 


37,838 


10,560 


588 


6 






Port St. John's 


8,681 


2,448 


95 


4 






Ntabankulu 


29,336 


8,051 


663 


8 


Total 


for the whole c 


)f the Territories 


817,967 


232,131 


47,176 


20 


e 


East Griqua- 
land. 


Mount Ayliff . . . 


J 16,738 


5,264 


861 


16 






Mount Fletcher 


[ 23,992 


6,962 


1,312 


19 


<> 




Qumbu 


31,160 


8,812 


3,001 


34 


e 




Tsolo 


31,402 


9,265 


2,850 


31 


* 




Umzimkulu 


32,574 


9,956 


2,480 


25 


o 


Tembuland ... 


Elliotdale 


29,145 


7,169 


348 


5 







Engcobo 


59,622 


15,973 


3,069 


19 


<> 




Mqanduli 


• 35,318 


9,854 


1,586 


16 






Umtata 


41,784 


11,305 


2,494 


22 



Vlll 



APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 



Under 
G.G. 

Act. 


Territory. 


Magistracy. 


(1904 Census.) 
Total Non- 
European 
Population. 


Census. 

Total 
5-14. 


Total 
Enrol- 
ment 

30/9/07. 


.2 

£! 

p CO 




Transkei 


Butter worth 


18,625 


5,143 


2,401 


47 


o 


! 


Idutywa 


27,279 


7,619 


1,346 


18 


o 




Kentani 


34,048 


9,461 


2,123 


22 


o 




Nqamakwe 


33,977 


9,934 


5,003 


50 


« 




Tsomo 


19,869 


5,984 


2,692 


45 






Willowvale 


42,225 


11,563 


3,139 


27 


Total for Divisions in 


which Glen Grey 










Act is in force 




477,758 


134,264 


34,705 


26 




East Griqua- 


Maclear 


4,829 


1,345 


239 


18 




land. 
















Matatiele 


32,627 


9,606 


1,822 


19 






Mount Currie ... 


10,697 


2,820 


632 


22 






Mount Frere ... 


32,765 


9,271 


3,583 


39 




Tembuland ... 


Elliot 


6,241 


1,523 


101 


7 






St. Mark's 


37,145 


10,870 


1,496 


14 






Xalanga 


14,161 


4,208 


1,689 


40 




Pondoiand . . . 


Bizana 


33,022 


10,273 


281 


3 






Flagstaff 


25,903 


7,512 


593 


8 






Libode 


24,795 


7,550 


350 


5 






Lusikisiki 


42,169 


11,830 


339 


3 






jSgqeleni 


37,838 


10,560 


588 


6 






Port St. John's 


8,681 


2,448 


95 


4 






Ntabankulu 


29,336 


8,051 


663 


8 


Total for Divisions in 


which Glen Grey 










Act is not in i 


orce 


340,209 


97,867 


12,471 


13 

















[F.J 

STATISTICS OF LOVEDALE NATIVE TRAINING 
INSTITUTION. 



1. Average total annual Government contribu- 
tion during three years, 1905-1908 ... £2,403 18 5 

Average total annual contribution in school 

fees during three years, 1905-1908 ... £5,128 15 2 

Average total annual contribution from other 

sources during three years, 1905-1908 ... £5,831 5 8 

Amount of Government grants-in-aid to 
teachers in Standard Classes this year, 
1908 ... ... ... ... £542 10 

Numbers of pupils enrolled in Standard 

Classes this vear ... ... ... 537 



2. 



a 



4. 



o. 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. 



IX 



6. Amount o£ fees received from 
pupils in (a) College Depart- 
ment ... ... ... (a) £669 

(b) Other departments not re- 
cognized by Government (b) £77 



7. Actual yearly cost of instruction 

in (a) College Department ... (a) £980 
(b) Other departments not 
recognized by Govern- 
ment ... ... (b) £250 

8. Character and scope of work done 

in those departments not recog- 
nized by Government as per 
separate Statement A. 

9. Number of students in 

(a) College ... ... (a) 66 

(b) Other departments not re- 
cognized by Government (b) 27 

10. Amount of Grant to Normal 

Department — (a) Salaries (a) £805 

(b) Maintenance (b) £340 



11. Amount of fees received from students in 

Normal Department ... 

12. Amount actual yearly cost to Institution of 

Normal Department ... 

13. Present Enrolment in Normal Department... 

14. Amount of Government Grant 

towards Industrial Depart- 
ments (1) Salaries ... (a) £419 
(2) Maintenance (b) £420 



15. Amount of fees received from Ap- 
prentices (1) Boys 
(2) Girls 



16 



(a) £183 

(b) £134 



Actual yearly cost to Institution, Industrial 
Departments 

17. Present enrolment of apprentices 

18. Present enrolment of boarders 

19. Statistics as to occupation of apprentices who 

left during 1895-1905 as per separate 
Statement B, to follow. 

20. Number of Staff 

21. Number of Staff towards whose salaries no 

Government Grant is given 



£746 



£1,230 



93 

£1,145 

£1,549 

£3,289 
143 



£839 



£317 

£2,573 11 5 
160 
540 



51 

27 



[A. 1- 



.] Native Education. 



X APPEXDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

22. Aggregate salaries paid to those referred to 

in 21 ... ... ... ... £3,677 

23. Qualifications (professional and academical) 

of Staff as per separate Statement C. 

24. Details as to tribe, country and religious 

denomination of pupils as per separate 
Statement D. 

25. Number of Chiefs' sons (with names) at 

present at Lovedale as per separate State- 
ment E. 

26. Statistics as to number of teachers trained 

each year at various native institutions 
as per separate Statement F. 



[G.] 

STATEMENT BY THE RIGHT REVEREND CO- 
ADJUTOR BISHOP OF CAPE TOWN. 

To the Chairman of the Select Committee of the House of 
Assembly on Native Education. 

Dear Sir, — 

In response to your kind invitation, I venture to lay before 

you a few suggestions on the subject of Native Education, based 

on the experience gained first as Head Master and then as 

Warden of S. John's College, Umtata, from 1879 to 1889 

inclusive, and afterwards as Theological Instructor of some thirty 

or forty very illiterate native preachers in 1902 and 1903. 

Object of I assume, as a matter in which all experts will agree, that the 

education. object of education is two-fold — first, to develop and train the 

mental powers and the character ; and secondly, to impart useful 

knowledge ; and that the former of these objects is immeasurably 

more important than the latter. 

Should natives I also take it for granted, that it is both our duty and our 

wisdom, as the governing race in South Africa, to impart to 

natives, as well as to Europeans, the best and most complete 

education that they prove themselves capable of receiving. It 

is well knoAvn that the native desire for education is intense and 

keen ; if we do not give it them, they will seek it elsewhere for 

themselves, and bear a grudge against us because we have not given 

it. As large contributors to the revenue of the country they 

think, not unreasonably, that they have a right to it. 

What direction Though the native mind and character has a claim upon us to 

education take? be developed, no less than the European, to the utmost limit of 

its capacity, it does not follow that it should be trained in the 

same direction. We have to take into account the different 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XI 

-characteristics of the two classes of mind and character, and the 
differences between the callings which are open to the two races. 
To take an extreme case, it would be useless (as Mr Tengo 
Jabavu pointed out at the recent Conference at Lovedale) in the 
present circumstances of South Africa, for a native to qualify as 
a barrister or doctor, with the hope of getting a practice among 
Europeans and the European scale of fees : no one would employ 
him, and he would starve. " A man cannot live on certificates." 
The mind and character must be trained with a view to the pro- 
bable future of the child, so that he may be able to make the 
best of himself in his own surroundings, whatever these may be. 
But in purely native life, when rescued from the retrograde in- 
fluences of heathenism and barbarism, there are many 
opportunities — and as time 'goes on, they will multiply — for the 
trained mind to employ itself in the betterment of its surround- 
ings and of the social life of the community, and in finding out 
new and improved means of gaining a livelihood. It was in this 
direction that Mr. Jabavu, on the occasion above alluded to, 
tried to guide the aspirations of educated natives ; he hoped that 
they would find employment under the Native District Councils 
and among their own people. And we shall probably agree that 
he was right. 

In forming our ideal then for native education, we have to con- Peculiarities of 
sider whether the native mind and character have any marked mindf n e 
peculiarities. And we find the native to be very observant, very 
imitative, and gifted with a very retentive memory. The im- 
mense value attached to precedent in native law and social 
custom is a familiar example of the tendency of the native to 
imitate what he has seen and heard. Consequently there is less 
need in native than in European education to train the memory, 
or the faculties of observation and imitation. Things which can 
be learned by rote, such as the multiplication table or the method 
of working a sum in any of the simple rules, have little educa- 
tional value for a native, and may even become delusive 
to the teacher ; for many a child will accomplish these things 
with perfect correctness, and so create unconsciously an impres- 
sion, entirely erroneous, that he understands the reasons for what 
he has done. At the same time the native mind is perfectly cap- 
able, if taught, of accurate and often acute reasoning. Quite 
illiterate men shew remarkable shrewdness in the practical 
matters of everyday life, and in the discussions which take place 
at their public meetings. The native child is quite capable of 
seeing the reasons for what he does, when they are pointed out 
to him, and he can be trained to do his school work, not by rote, 
but intelligently, knowing why he does this and that. Whether he 
is so trained or not, makes all the^ difference in the value of the 
education given him. 

The native character again has its own special points of and character, 
strength and weakness. It is strong in obedience and loyalty to 



Xll APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

a recognised authority, but weak in self-control ; strong in a 
burning enthusiasm, but weak in thoroughness, method and per- 
severance. What boldness, for instance, one finds in the native 
child, or young man, fresh from school, in launching out into 
English in speech or correspondence, and yet what an 
imperfect mastery of the language ! W hat failures in finance, 
not always from intentional dishonesty, but from sheer muddling, 
money intended for one purpose being used for another, perhaps 
equally good, but not intended or authorized by the donor ! How 
many splendid schemes begun, and carried out for a little while, 
and then quietly abandoned ! But the unquestioning obedience to 
father and loyalty to tribe, which form part of the atmosphere of 
a native home, are a splendid asset for the teacher, who has the 
personality which inspires respect and affection, and the noble 
ideals which embody themselves gradually in a high-toned school 
tradition ; while the zeal for knowledge on the part of his pupils 
should help him to feel that it is worth his while to secure 
permanent results by insisting that every lesson is thoroughly 
learned and understood by an orderly discipline and strict 
adherence to the time table, by an example of untiring discharge 
of duty day after day. 

And now we may consider the details of the curriculum. The 
most important question meets us on the threshold. What 
language is to be the medium of instruction ? Is it 
possible that there can be any doubt on this point ? Some 
of us can remember in our early days being set to learn 
Latin and Greek by means of grammars written in Latin. What 
an insane fatuity it all seems now r ! Those grammars have long 
since been banished from every school in England, and all 
languages, classical and modern, are taught through the medium 
of the mother tongue. What possible advantage can a native- 
child, who hears no English in his home, who never speaks English 
to his playmates, derive from being set to repeat by rote — 
for it comes to that — page after page of an English Reader, or 
an English geography or grammar ? The labour of learning is 
at once doubled, and deprived of the interest which makes it 
attractive. The habit of implicit obedience to parental authority 
may lead the child to believe that there is some mystic virtue in 
learning ; the advantage cannot be apparent to his own mind. 
And the moral result of the system is bad. Imparted through 
the medium of an unknown tongue, education remains an exotic ;: 
it is never assimilated by the mind and heart ; it is an unreality ; 
and the painful result is too often seen of a child taking on, w r ith 
apparent sincerity and profit, the veneer of foreign teaching and 
moral instruction and even religious, during the year or two 
which it spends at the white man's school, only to throw it off 
again and revert to the barbarous life of heathenism, with perfect 
naturalness and consistency, when it returns to the surroundings 
of its own native kraal. 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XII l 

It is said that English is necessary for the native child, in order Knowledge of 
that it may find employment and earn a wage, when school days 
are over. Granted ; but let English be taught on its own merits, 
as a language, not made the medium of instruction in other sub- 
jects. If reading is taught by means of a graduated series of 
Readers in the vernacular, the child can at the same time be 
taught, (from the first, the English equivalent of what it reads, 
beginning with the nouns, and going on to the adjectives and 
verbs, and after that to complete sentences. Even if the progress 
in English were slower on this method, utility, as we assumed 
at the outset, must be subordinated to the training of the mind 
and character ; but experience shows that progress on this system 
will be quicker, and the knowledge of English ultimately gained 
more, complete, because the learning is intelligent and interesting 
from the beginning. From about Standard IV upwards, it would 
probably be found possible to introduce an English Reader in 
addition to the one in the vernacular, though it might not be the 
same Reader that is used by English-speaking children in that 
Standard. 

In Arithmetic, the Multiplication Table must be learned, and all Arithmetic, 
sums worked, in English, because the Kafir numerals and arithmeti- EiSidf an 
cal terms are so long and cumbrous as to make their use impossible ; 
but the explanation of every rule should be given in the vernacu- 
lar. To check the tendency to do sums by mere imitation or 
rote-work, the teacher should, as soon as possible, make use of 
problems. Later on, Algebra and Euclid should be employed, to 
develop the reasoning powers. To say or write out in the 
vernacular a proposition of Euclid, which has been learned in 
English, will afford good evidence that it has been understood ; to 
do the same thing with perfect accuracy in English may be a feat 
of memory. 

The study of Grammar is of value, not merelv as a means of Grammar, 

, . J . , , .' J . . . Analysis and 

learning a particular language, but in order to tram the mind to Composition. 
analyse and understand the processes of thought and expres- 
sion in all languages. For this purpose the Kafir grammar, 
which is elaborate, logical, and on the whole regular, is a 
much more satisfactory instrument than the English grammar, 
which has but a small variety of cases, tenses, moods, 
etc., and is full of irregularities and exceptions, which to 
a student who does not know the history of the language 
must appear quite meaningless and arbitrary. The grammar 
of the vernacular language should of course be studied by the 
native in that language. It would probably be necessary to 
adopt many of the English technical terms, with vernacular 
explanations. Some 20 or 25 years ago I formed the idea of 
such a grammar, but tiad no leisure to carry it into execution. 
The analysis of sentences and composition should also be learned 
in the vernacular. The usual forms used for analysing sentences 
in English will probably not apply to the vernacular languages ; 



XIV APPEXDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

but experts, who understand the principles of- analysis, ought to 
have no difficulty in devising forms which will be suitable. It is 
surely putting the cart before the horse to teach children to com- 
pose in a foreign language, before they have learned to write 
intelligibly in their own. Part of my almost daily labour at the 
present time is the attempt to discover the meaning of badly 
written, mis-spelt, unpunctuated Kafir letters, not from children, 
but from men supposed to have been educated. 

Geography and Geography, taught in the vernacular, and beginning with the 
immediate neighbourhood of the school, and going on to South 
Africa, and then to the world, Avould at once be a matter of 
interest to the native child. So also would History, read 
or (still better) orally taught in the mother tongue* 
Here, however, I would suggest that the history studied 
be not that of South Africa— consisting largely as it does 
of native w r ars, the remembrance of which can only serve to per- 
petuate racial animosity — but that of the British Empire, in 
order to awaken first a sense of participation in the glorious 
traditions of that Empire, of which they as well as we are 
citizens ; and secondly, the hopefulness for their own gradual 
improvement, which is suggested by a knowledge of the barbar- 
ous beginnings from which our Empire and its civilization have 
slowly grown. I have found the oral presentation of striking 
episodes (after the manner of the late Miss Yonge's "Cameos 
of English History") in their chronological succession, a useful 
method. 

inspectors and ^ follows from what has been said that all teachers, inspec- 

Examiners, tors, and examiners of native schools must be familiar with the 
vernacular of the neighbourhood where the school is situated. 
This may bear hardly on some individuals ; but schools do not 
exist for the sake of the teachers and inspectors, but the 
teachers and inspectors for the sake of the schools and the educa- 
tion which the schools are meant to give. 

moiIiTrafniSio ^° s k etcn °£ the curriculum of a school can be complete 
which leaves out the most important item of all — the religious 
and moral training, which is to direct and control the use of the 
instructed and developed mind. An education which includes 
no moral instruction and no religious training simply increases 
the capacity for evil. It would, I conceive, be outside the 
province of the State either to define what is to be taught under 
this head, or to test the results by a Government inspection. 
The responsibility for this is best left to the religious body with 
which the particular school is connected. But the Education 
Department might require, as a condition of its grant, a time for 
religious and moral teaching to be allotted in the Time Table ; 
and if the Inspector on his visit were to ask if this instruction 
were given and, if not, were to call the attention of the 
missionary responsible to the omission, it would show the teachers 
that the Government was alive to the importance of the subject, 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XV 

and tend to remove the impression from their minds that it "does 
not count " in the inspection. If the missionaries would them- 
selves make a point of periodically inspecting all their schools in 
religions knowledge and rewarding conspicuous proficiency, the 
zeal of the more negligent teachers would be still further 
aroused. 

Simple instruction should also be given, of a practical character, Hygiene, && 
on the laws of health, on cleanliness, and on temperance. The 
Inspectors should see that these lessons were not contradicted by 
any overcrowding or want of ventilation in the school building, 
or by unsanitary surroundings. 

The disproportionate training of the mind alone apart from the J? 8 ^ 1 
body, which has the tendency to produce idle and conceited 
loafers rather than well balanced and useful members of society, 
should be guarded against by some manual occupation as 
frequently as possible, if not every day. For girls this can 
easily be found in sewing, plain cooking, washing, scrubbing, 
and such like domestic tasks, with little cost, but rather gain, to 
the schools. For boys — who need it more — it is less easy to find 
occupations which do not require a costly plant. It is only in 
the large schools that such things as carpentry can be taught. I 
venture to suggest gardening or field husbandry wherever the 
neighbourhood of the school admits of it. This implies that the 
teachers must be taught in their Training Institutions, not only 
the difference between good gardening and bad, but also the 
dignity of gardening at all or of any other kind of manual labour. 

One other matter I must touch upon. The suggestions which Text-books. 
1 have made involve the provision of a varied assortment of 
Text-Books — Histories, Geographies, Grammars, and Readers — 
for the exclusive use of Native Schools. We have among our 
Inspectors, and on the staffs of our Native Institutions, men who 
have already proved their capability of producing such books. 
If such a curriculum as I have advocated were adopted by the 
Department, the sale of thousands of copies would be at once 
assured. And I have no doubt that men familiar with South 
Africa and its native tribes would take care to make the 
Readers suitable for the country and its circumstances. Oppor- 
tunity would be given here to teach through tales and anec- 
dotes many things, for whose direct enforcement no place can be 
found on the Time-Table ; much of the historical teaching might 
here be given ; selected episodes from the annals of the native 
tribes, and reminiscences of their great men, such as Ntsikana, 
might here be introduced ; even remarkable instances of super- 
stition, like the great cattle-killing, or examples of old-time 
cruelty, if not too revolting, might be related. So the children 
might insensibly grow up to realize that their truest patriotism is 
not to try to stand by themselves before the time, but to seek for 
the advancement of their race under the guidance and protection 
of the friendly power which has brought them the light which 
they already have. 



XVI 



APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 



object not I have no doubt that a great deal of what I have advocated 

the sketching above is already being done or aimed at in the Native Schools of this 

of an ideal. Colony. I have not stopped to ask what is being done, or what 

is still deficient. 



Higher 
education of 
natives. 



I have simply tried to sketch my ideal. My 
aim has been, not to criticise, but to construct. 

If I am asked : " Should the Government encourage and 
assist the higher education of natives ? " And : " Are the 
natives capable of anything equivalent to a university 
education ? " I answer to both questions, certainly. Twenty 
years ago I had pupils at Umtata, who were quite capable 
of profiting by a college course, if it had been open to 
them ; about the same period, perhaps earlier, the late 
Dr. Stewart had a college class at Lovedale ; I have no doubt 
that other native institutions can bear the same testimony. The 
subjects suitable for a university course for natives are not 
necessarily the same as for Europeans ; just as the Honours 
Course at our English Universities varies according to the pro- 
fession which a man intends to follow. The class and the degree 
are of the same value, whether gained in Litteral Humaniores, in 
Mathematics, in Natural Science, in Theology, or in any other 
subject. What the degree guarantees is not the knowledge of 
one particular subject, but a certain standard of mental training 
and culture. Of this culture a certain number of natives have 
already proved themselves capable; and the number will be 
vastly increased, when it is once conceded that natives are to be 
not only taught but examined in their own language. University 
training for natives in suitable subjects must be provided, in 
order to furnish and equip a sufficient supply of educated leaders 
with large ideas and a wide outlook, without whose help it is 
impossible for us ever to discharge that duty, which Providence 
has clearly laid upon us, of elevating and civilizing and 
Christianizing the native races of South Africa. 

I remain, &c, 

W. M. CAMERON, Bp. 

Cape Town, August 8th, 1908. 



[H] 

STATEMENT BY THE REVEREND J. DU PLESSIS, 
GENERAL MISSION SECRETARY, DUTCH RE- 
FORMED CHURCH. 

I. Instruction in the Vernacular. 

On this point I find myself in fullest accord with what has 
been repeatedly stated by missionaries and mission conferences, 
that it is useless to expect any satisfactory results unless the 
medium of instruction, in the lower standards at any rate, be the 
language which the pupil speaks and understands. 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XV11 

II. The present demand for Secondary or Higher Education. 

To my mind the movement in the direction of Higher Educa- 
tion for Natives is premature, and the whole scheme for the 
establishment of an Inter- State Native College far too ambi- 
tious. 

1. The past results of the best Native Institutions for 
Secondary Education do not warrant it. So far as I know 
Lovedale and Zonnebloem are the only two which have professed 
to prepare students for Matriculation. At the General Mis- 
sionary Conference held at Johannesburg in 1906 it was re- 
ported that during the period 1882 to 1906 Lovedale had passed 
9 in Matriculation and Zonnebloem 4. The Lovedale Report for 
1907 o<iyes us the following fiVures : 

Matriculation Class — 7 native students, 4 presented for ex- 
amination, 2 passed (in the Third Class). 

School Higher Class 1 — 27 students, of whom 22 remained to 
end of course, 19 presented, 4 passed. 

These figures mean that Lovedale — our most important native 
institution — has passed, through the long period of 25 years, con- 
siderably less than one per annum at the Matriculation Examina- 
tion. The native must not merely express his desire after, but more 
satisfactorily prove his fitness for, Higher Education, before the 
States of South Africa can undertake the outlay for the estab- 
lishment and support of the proposed college. They cannot 
justly be expected to provide for the exceptions ; they must first 
make due provision for the needs of the mass. 

2. ' ; But, it is urged, natives have taken so lively an interest 
in, and subscribed so liberallv towards, the Inter-State Native 
•College." 

Upon this I would remark : 

{a) This interest is largely to be explained by the unrest 
created by the war, the influence exercised over the 
native mind by the so-called " Ethiopian Movement," 
and the remarkable awakening of the non-Christian 
races, not merely through all Africa, but over the 
whole globe. It is quite impossible for me to enlarge 
on these points in this memorandum. 

As to the influence of the war, I would refer you to what 
Booker Washington remarks on the effect of the War of 
Emancipation upon the American negroes. There was an in- 
tense desire after education, coupled with the latent idea that, if 
they could but imbibe a modicum of " book learning," they would 
instantly advance to the position of gentlemen, and all need for 
manual labour would be at an end. The South African War and 
the American Civil War are far from parallel cases, but the 
effect of the former on the South African native is very similar 
to that described by Booker Washington. 



XV111 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

The Ethiopian Movement is a large subject, on which the last 
word has not yet been spoken. It arose in America at the end of 
the 18th century from the avowed desire of the black man to 
be ecclesiastically independent of the white man. In 1900 the 
first Bishop of the African Methodist Episcopal Church in 
South Africa, the black Dr. Levi Jenkins Coppin, arrived in this 
country. The Ethiopian Movement, thus established, was sup- 
posed to conceal a secret political trend, and repressive measures 
were introduced by some of the South African Governments. It 
can hardly be doubted that the natives' urgent cry for more 
education is in considerable part due to the influence of 
Ethiopianism. 

In this connection, finally, I hardly need do more than refer 
to the extraordinary awakening of some of the black races of 
Africa (e.g., the natives of Uganda and of Nyasaland), and to 
the still more extraordinary awakening of the yellow races of 
Asia, which is matter of common knowledge. 

The liberality of the natives in subscribing towards a Native 
College is wholly admirable, and one of the reasons why it seems 
churlish to refuse them the desire of their hearts. How much 
of the sum which has been already raised or promised has come 
from the natives themselves, how much has been given or pro- 
mised unconditionally, and what proportion of the native contri- 
bution has come from wealthy chiefs : these are questions which 
no doubt your Committee has carefully inquired into. 

3. " But, it is asked again, what becomes of the cry of equal 
rights for every civilized man south of the Zambesi ? " 

That depends upon the sphere in which those rights are to be 
exercised. In the religious sphere I say Yes. My black 
brother possesses and must exercise the same spiritual pri- 
vileges as I possess ; and the more material privilege of 
a share in C hurch government shall be his so soon as 
he shows his competence to possess it. In the social 
sphere I say No, and I do not think there is a single 
responsible man in South Africa (though he may stand in the 
most direct succession to the Vanderkemp tradition) who will 
consistently uphold social equality. In the educational sphere I 
say Yes and No : theoretically, Yes ; practically, No. 

In broad principle the native has a right to be educated, a 
right as cogent and indisputable as that of a European. Educa- 
tion then let him have — as much as he needs and can profit by. 
In practical application the native should have, I venture to think, 
an education, not that is equal or similar to that of the European, 
but that is adapted to his special circumstances and requirements. 

I think it a great mistake to assume that a system of educa- 
tion which has proved a success in (say) England, must neces- 
sarily be suited to South Africa. But it is an infinitely greater 
mistake to assume that a system of education adapted to the 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XIX 

needs of Europeans is also the best for natives. We must 

remember : 

(a) The native is only just emerging from barbarism, and 
the emergence has proceeded a very little way indeed. 
The scientific doctrine of heredity must count for 
nothing at all, if we are to assume that the native 
stands, intellectually, on the same footing as the 
European, with, let us say, sixteen centuries of 
Christianity and civilisation behind him. 
(/;) The native is a child, with the imitative and emotional 
nature of a child. He is imitative, and desires to ape 
the white man in everything — in dress, demeanour, 
educational curriculum and (finally) academical degrees. 
He is emotional, not ratiocinative, and cannot fairly 
judge as to what is best suited to his needs. 
(c) That the native requires a different system of education 
from that of the European is the lesson taught by 
Booker Washington. He makes it plain in " Up from 
Slavery" and "Working with the Hands" that the bulk 
of the American negroes cannot aspire to the higher 
walks of life, but must be content, for some generations 
to come, to fulfil the lowlier duties. What is true of the 
American negro is true, a fortiori of the South African 
native. The American negro has escaped from savagery 
and cut himself wholly loose from his former environ- 
ment; for several generations he has been Christianized ; 
he is, therefore, in peculiarly favourable conditions for 
advance and development along moral and intellectual 
lines. And yet Booker Washington discovers in him 
certain weaknesses of character and intellect which 
make a special and elementary system of education 
desirable for him. How much more is such a system 
needful for the South African native, who is far less 
favourably circumstanced than the American negro, and 
is continually liable to be sucked back into the vortex of 
barbarism. 

III. In conclusion, my suggestions would be : — 

(i.) Let us all put our strength into the Elementary Educa- 
tion of the native. The vernacular must be the medium 
of instruction, with English as Classic for the higher 
standards, but no Latin and Greek. The curriculum 
should include Geography, History (especially of South 
Africa), Natural Science and Arithmetic (no Grammar). 

(ii.) For Secondary Education, let there (in lieu of the high- 
sounding Native College) be grants-in-aid for institu- 
tions that will undertake to prepare students for School 
Higher and Matriculation. Students for the higher 
University examinations should be encouraged to pre- 



XX APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

pare themselves by private study (and in this they 
ought to encounter no serious difficulty, provided there 
is sufficient grit in them), unless some College could be 
prevailed upon to open its doors to them. 
(iii.) On the extreme desirability of giving as much time as 
possible to Manual and Industrial training I offer no 
remark, as I understand that this matter has received 
large attention at the hands of your Committee. 

J. du PLESSIS. 



[I-] 

STATEMENT BY THE REVEREND W. STUART, 
BURNSHILL, MIDDLEDRIFT. 

The Chairman, 

Select Committee on 
Native Education. 

Sir, — I am to say that I take the liberty of submitting to your 
Committee a brief statement on the question. My experience of 
native schools extends over a period of 27 years. I have had 
the supervision of a large number of schools during that time. 
My relations with the Education Department— official staff and 
visiting inspectors — have always been of a friendly kind. My 
interest in Native Education, and desire for its progress amongst 
the native people are my plea for venturing to place before you a 
few points deserving careful consideration in view of possible 
legislation. Others might have been dealt with, but witnesses 
examined probably have referred to these. The statement will I 
think be sufficiently clear. Let me, however, state the points in 
.a word. 

1. The introduction of standards higher than IV. at suitable 

central existing schools whenever conditions allow this. 

2. No indiscriminate application of a hard and fast rule. 

"No assistant, no Standard IV." 

3. Larger liberty for teachers in the arrangement of pupils 

as to standards. 

4. The re-introduction of Kafir as a subject of instruction. 

5. The continuance of English as a subject of instruction and 

its systematic teaching from the outset. 

6. The use of Kafir as the medium of instruction in the 

early stages of the child's school life. 

7. The recognition of Kafir as a subject of instruction by 

the Government, and regular annual inspection. 

8. The admission of poor Europeans where European schools 

are at too great a distance and employment of Tutor or 
Governess beyond the means of the parent. 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XXI 

9. The better payment of teachers. 

10. The reduction of Teacher's Grants on report of Visiting 

Inspector. 

11. The special function of Missionary-Superintendents.. 

What ? 

With apology for venturing to submit the statement. 

I have, etc., 

W. STUART. 

Elementary Native Education. 

Interest in education has taken a firm hold of the native mind 
during the last quarter of a century. This is due on the one 
hand to the spread of Christianity, and on the other to the 
recognition of the commercial value of education. Government 
has contributed its share in the financial support given, although 
that has not been on too lavish a scale. 

Considerable progress has been made. The intelligence 
generally has increased. The standard of attainment is higher. 
The progress has been made in face of many difficulties and 
amidst changes not a few. Teachers and superintendents have 
found it difficult often to predict when and where these changes 
would end. Annual inspections have been looked forward to 
with great anxiety — teachers wondering what new thing would 
be required of them and their pupils next. This uncertainty has 
had an unsettling effect. 

The advance made in the standard of attainment and the 
spread of intelligence have warranted the gradual introduction of 
Standards V. and YI. in many college schools. Suitable central 
existing schools should be fixed upon and classes for the higher 
standards be introduced with the hearty sanction, the sympathetic 
encouragement and financial support of Government. A be- 
ginning has been made in some parts. But the forward 
movement should be encouraged. 

Standard IV. should not be suppressed in every case where the 
number in attendance do not warrant the employment of an 
assistant teacher. There should be no hard and fast rule applic- 
able indiscriminately to every case — "no Assistant, no Standard 
IV." A grave wrong may be done to a community by the ap- 
plication of £uch a rule. There have been, and still are, native 
teachers quite equal to the work. It does not encourage, nor is 
it fair to them, to suggest that, as a class, they are incapable of 
undertaking the whole work of an Elementary School up to and 
including Standard IV. Nor is it for the educational interests 
of some communities, which because of special local conditions 
are not able to produce the numbers in average attendance now 
required to warrant the employment of an Assistant. Many 



:XX11 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

schools which would be effected by such rule are situated, not 
inside populous locations, but amongst small native farmers, 
owners of land in their own right, who have advanced in civiliza- 
tion beyond many of their fellows, and have thus become of 
greater commercial and moral value to the country. 

Larger freedom should be given to teachers in the arranging 
of their pupils into Standards. Formerly the freedom was 
enjoyed. The freedom has been discontinued. Results are 
now tabulated by the visiting Inspector. These results regulate 
the class arrangements for the next annual Inspection. A.B. 
is a bright pupil, one of the best in his class. He is 
preparing for Standard III. Of a nervous, anxious disposition, 
lie does not succeed on the day of inspection. He is registered 
once again in Standard II., and may not be presented for Standard 
IV. a year hence. He can only be brought forward for Standard 
III. as at the preceding inspection. The pupil loses a whole 
year. This is a consideration even to a native parent or a native 
pupil. The teacher should be allowed to bring the pupil forward 
for the higher standards if he considers the child qualified. It 
was so in former days. 

Kafir is the language of the people and the national inlet of 
knowledge to the mind. It has all but been discontinued. The 
elimination has been slow and gradual, from above downwards. 
Kafir readers have disappeared from the average village school. 
English readers alone remain. Recently CD. entered a village 
school, and put the question to the teacher : " Have you 
any Kafir reading books in school ? " Reply, " Yes, one, but we 
don't use it." This is not a state of things to be desired. 
The majority of children in school are from homes where 
English is unknown. Kafir is their mother tongue. It is the 
language most of them will continue to use in after years in all 
life's relationships. 

Kafir should be a subject of instruction. It should be the 
medium of all instruction. It is the natural, the only possible 
medium in the earlier stages of school life. In no other way can 
access be had to the mind within. 

Instruction in Kafir and through Kafir should alike receive 
the recognition and support of Government. It did so in former 
days. It may be said — it has been said — the Education De- 
partment does not stand in the way. Be it so. But not stand- 
ing in the way does not help. If no notice is taken of Kafir, 
teachers will say it is not necessary and will treat it as such ; 
and that is actually what has taken place. 

Kafir should and will of necessity be the medium of instruc- 
tion in the earlier stages of school life. At the same time the 
day when English shall take its place in respect of the few who 
are to be favoured with more advanced education should be kept 
in view. In order to do this English should be taught syste- 
matically from the very outset and pupils encouraged to make 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. XXlll 

regular use of it. Progress in the acquirement of it (English) 
as a medium, but used later on for the acquisition of knowledge 
should be tested at successive annual inspections. 

The outline here given is the practice, as it was eight or ten 
years ago. Both Kafir and English were taught simultaneously 
in native schools, and both were subjects of examination at the 
annual inspection. 

The presence of Europeans in native schools. Inspectors 
occasionally find a few European children in a native school. 
Objection is taken. The teacher is informed that such children 
should not be admitted. He naturally becomes anxious and 
thinks of penalties for the offence of admitting such children. 
For their peace of mind, both teachers and superintendent should 
know where they stand in this matter. The presence of such 
children may be deemed undesirable. But this is the best and 
only possible way in respect of many poor Europeans in some parts 
of the country. Parents desire the privilege possible to them. 
Teachers are willing to do their best for such Missionary 
superintendents and not shut the door against them. Take a 
case in point : A.B., a German, is a hard working man, with 
a large family. His home is 7 or 8 miles from the nearest 
European school, the children cannot walk from 14 to 16 miles 
daily- The man is too poor to send them to a boarding school 
and he is unable to provide a governess. Within 1 \ miles of his 
door is a fairly good native school — conducted by a native 
christian man of unblemished moral character. Is the German 
parent to be allowed or debarred the opportunity of getting for 
his children the best possible education within his reach and 
means ? 

Another point demanding consideration is the under payment 
of native teachers. The salaries they receive is not sufficient 
to keep them in comfort, and compares very unfavourably 
with the salaries attached to other occupations open 
more especially to young men. These more remunera- 
tive occupations — in which there is far less drudgery 
than in the teaching profession, and greater variety of interest 
offer greater attraction to young men, not a few of whom would 
become teachers, if the conditions were more favourable. Con- 
sideration was given to the question of salary some years ago, 
but little came of the proposals owing to the "restriction of 
funds." This is a matter which should receive immediate atten- 
tion on the return of better times. 

Something in the line of the Glen Grey clause, referring to 
education, would assist materially in the raising of the portion of 
salary payable to teachers by parents. It should be possible to 
overcome the opposition of its application on the part of head- 
men and those taking up their attitude. 

Occasionally teachers are subjected to a reduction of the 
Government Grant portion of salary, and this, on the unfavour- 



XXIV APPENDIX TO PEPOPT OF THE SELECT 

able report of tlie local inspector. In view of the many 
contingencies and contributing causes in connection with Ele- 
mentary Schools — the prudence and justice of this, in some cases 
at least, may be reasonably doubted. The fault may not lie with 
the teacher at all. And yet he is the party directly punished. 
Probably, a closer investigation and a fuller knowledge of all the 
facts might alter the opinion of even an inspector. 

And lastly it would be well that Missionary superintendents gener- 
ally should have their special function defined. From the attitude 
of the Educational Department it would some times appear that 
they have no say as to what shall be taught and what shall not be 
taught in schools which belong to the churches they represent, 
and which owe their existence and not a little of their progress to the 
fostering care of their churches. A clear understanding here 
would contribute to good feeling between the parties concerned 
and harmonious co-operation. 

WILLIAM STUAKT, 

Missionary of United Free Church of Scotland. 

Burnshill, Middledrift, 

King William's Town, 
4th August, 1908. 



[J.] 

STATEMENT BY THE REVEREND E. G. MARX r 
GOSHEN, CATHCART. 

In the race to the educational goal native pupils are heavily 
handicapped by inherited mental national and social conditions 
and circumstances detrimental to intellectual development. It is 
but fair that this should be recognized by allowing more time and 
suitable facilities for the longer and more difficult course they 
have to run compared to a child of European descent. This, 
however, is not done under the educational system in force at the 
present time, which might be compared to spectacles fitted for 
the far-sighted child of European extraction and environment, 
and not for the short-sighted native youngster born and bred 
under the primitive and often degrading circumstances of some 
out-of-the-way Transkeian Kafir kraal. 

Is it then surprising that the intellectual powers of the native- 
pupil are not satisfactorily trained and developed, and that the 
results obtained go far in discrediting the cause of Native Edu- 
cation at large ? If we fail to produce something more fitting we 
cannot hope for better results. 

More thorough work is needed in our native elementary 
schools, and this cannot be done unless the superstructure of the 
school work is intimately joined to and rested upon the foundation 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XXV 

of the national soul, as revealed in language, faculties of mind, 
and the notions accumulated by the child in those most important 
years of infancy. 

It is of course much easier to apply a certain existing system 
than creating a new one, but as every man is expected to do his 
duty, also educationists will have to put their shoulder to the 
wheel, endeavouring by united efforts to rescue the educational 
policy employed for our native population out of the ruts into 
which it has been allowed to drift, and push it on to the firm 
high road of common sense. 

In this endeavour your Committee may rely upon the hearty 
support and co-operation of us missionaries. 

1 am, etc., 

E. G. MAEX. 



LK1 

STATEMENT BY THE REVEREND W. C. WIL- 
LOUGHBY, TIGER KLOOF, NEAR VRYBURG. ' 

There are one or two points in which I think my evidence was 
deficient. I was asked, " Why the Government should support 
Native Education at all." I cannot remember the exact wording 
of the question. And I gave some sort of a reply. But if I had 
had time to prepare a reply to so important a question, I would 
have put it in the following words : — We have somehow to govern 
a very large number of natives in this country, and there are only 
two possible methods of doing it — all others are mere modifica- 
tions of one or the other or compromises between the two. In the 
first place we can treat the natives as permanent serfs ; promul- 
gate laws for enforcing labour (we can't enforce industry !) and 
extracting taxes ; and keep in reserve a " mailed fist " that can 
be applied where necessary. Only it would have to be a vigorous 
fist. Or, in the second place, we may regard the natives as 
immature humans whom we are bound to train for the intelligent 
and industrious exercise of the duties and responsibilities of 
citizenship. Now the former method may suit the Congo Free 
State, but it will never command the respect of the average- 
Englishman. Where it has been tried most thoroughly it has 
most conspicuously failed. And if it were tried here, it would 
cost more in military expenditure than it would bring in through 
taxation and labour combined. But when I hear men waxing 
eloquent in their pity for the slave, I always turn heretic and 
prefer to pity the masters. And to my mind the most serious 
condemnation of this method lies just here : we can onlv govern 
native races successfully along such lines, by degrading our own 
officers to the position of " nigger-drivers," and thus robbing them 
of the very best that is in them. 

[A.I.— '08]— Native Education. TT 



XXVI APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

But if we are to aim at the growth of an intelligent and in- 
dustrious race of black citizens, while frankly admitting that we 
can only begin a work that it will take generations to complete 
(Is any human work ever completed ?), then we certainly must 
rely on ed ucation for the culture of intelligence. And the fact 
that a " creepy-crawly " caterpillar is the first reward of a man 
who sets himself to grow butterflies, is neither a condemnation of 
the man nor his methods. He expects that. And in this matter 
we must expect something like it. But I do most unreservedly 
think that the Government will save £o in military expenditure 
for every £l that it spends on native education, assuming, of 
course, that it spends the £l wisely. From a Colonial standpoint, 
native education is to me not a mere matter of duty, and certainly 
not a matter of sentiment : it is a matter of successful and 
economical administration in the long run. 

The natives of Bechuanaland frequently voice the suspicion 
that we want them to be permanent hewers of wood and drawers 
of water, and it does not tend to loyalty. But if we show them 
an open door for any man who is fit to enter it, then we give 
them a powerful inducement to become fit, and we shall be re- 
warded by an increase of loyalty. What is more, the fittest will 
enter, and, having profited by the opportunities provided by the 
Government, will become the most loyal section of the native 
population — our unseen allies in times of crisis that are hidden to 
us. And that is just when we need them most. 

But we must never shut our eyes to the fact that the growth of 
the native tribes in intelligence will inevitably mean increased 
anxiety for the governing race, and will demand a larger wisdom 
and a greater patience. It often means an increase of anxiety to 
a parent when his children are emerging from childhood and 
showing more and more independence of character. The youth 
is all too fond of exhibiting his new-found independence in the 
most uncalled for and irritating manner. And the father is 
sometimes slow to remember that the youth is no longer in the 
nursery, and that it is now necessary to appeal to the reason of 
the boy, immature and inexperienced though it may be, rather 
than to the " spanked hide." It is so much easier to govern our 
children while they are in the nursery ; but no intelligent parent 
would wish that they should always remain there because of that. 
Our educated natives are probably going to bring the Govern- 
ment face to face with many problems that it has never considered 
before, and sometimes to cause it anxiety. But if we attempt to 
keep them permanently in the nursery, even though we do it by 
apathetic methods, we shall raise a resentment in their minds that 
will give us very much more anxiety than we need otherwise 
have. 

Another point that I intended bringing to the notice of the 
Select Committee was concerning the training of normal stu- 
dents. It is a notorious fact that only a very small proportion of 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION* XXVll 

those who are so trained are afterwards available as School 
Teachers. And it is very important that we should discover the 
cause of this loss. There are probably quite a number of causes 
that are co-operating to produce this result. But there is one in 
particular that ought to be mentioned. The only native youths 
that can possibly go through a Normal Students' Course in one 
of our Native Institutions, are youths whose parents are able to 
pay the fees of such an Institution for some years before the 
beginning of the Normal Course is reached and for what time is 
necessary after that. Now, as far as the Becwana are con- 
cerned, such -youths are the sons of the well-to-do natives ; and 
when they leave the Institution they are not obliged to work for 
their living. They have a patrimony to fall back upon, and they 
have a certain position in the local community to fill. They may 
spend a year or two in teaching after their return home, but they 
are not at all likely to make teaching the permanent business of 
their life. And it is as unreasonable to expect that they will do 
so, as it would be to expect the landowners of England to devote 
themselves to similar work in our home schools. If we want to 
train teachers who shall afterwards be available for teaching, our 
best policy would be to take the promising sons of poor parents 
and give them the necessary training free of all charge. And, 
also, I think it will be found that the sons of the wealthy natives 
are the least hopeful section of a native community, whether the 
standard of judgment be morality, or industry or intelligence. 



[L.] 

STATEMENT BY THE KEVEEEND D. MALGAS, 
FORT BEAUFOET. 

My Dear Sir, — 

I see in the papers that a Committee has been appointed by 
the House of Assembly to look into the subject of Native Edu- 
cation. Will you allow me to make the following suggestions : — 

(a) Native children must be taught in their own language 
as well as in the English language from the beginning 
to the end English and Kafir (Jrammars to be used, 
they must translate English into Kafir and Kafir into 
English. it is necessary that we should know the 
language of our masters (English) as well as our own. 

(b) Industrial schools should be established and our native 

boys should have some knowledge of farming. We 
cannot all be teachers, and even teachers should know 
how to use their hands. 

(c) Nursing as well as domestic economy should be taught 

to our girls and Hygiene should be introduced in our 
Native Institutions. We have no knowledge of keep- 



XXV111 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

ing ourselves in good health, and consequently those 
who depart from this life are more in number than 
those who come to take their places, which means that 
we are coming to an end before long. 

(d) A more advanced education is necessary to those who 
are being trained to become teachers than they are 
having now. Standards should be done away with, and 
discretion should be given to the teacher to advance 
those children who have mastered the subjects taught 
in their classes, and not to wait for Government inspec- 
tion. 

(e) Religious instruction should receive the support of the 

Government in our Mission Institutions. I do not 
know of any subject that will mould the character of 
an individual and make him a good citizen, besides 
Religion which makes one to fear God and to honour 
the King. 

Please allow me to submit the above suggestions to the Com- 
mittee through you. 

I have, etc., 

D. MALGAS, 



Holy Trinity Mission, 

Fort Beaufort, Julv 13th, 1908. 



English Church Minister. 



[M.] 

STATEMENTS BY THE LATE DR. JAMES 
STEWART, PRINCIPAL OF LOVEDALE NA- 
TIVE TRAINING INSTITUTION. 

" For the others who want something better and who will be 
the teachers and show the mass what education really is, there 
must be this other place. It may have, as already mentioned, a 
simple curriculum ; not much Latin and Greek, because we are 
departing from that in England now, but a thorough training or 
education. And that takes us to another question ; the one 
curriculum for white and black, or two curriculums. We have 
not touched this yet, and it is a very difficult matter. But one 
can conceive a simple school of this kind- — a college is the right 
name for it — where they can get what will be a thorough training 
in some science, with English as their classic instead of Latin 
and Greek, those being comparatively useless to Natives. . . . 
As regards the standards, the first to the fourth, the course of 
instruction might be simplified and strengthened. There should 
be more Kafir for the first two years at least, proceeding to 
English afterwards." [Evidence of Rev. James Stewart before 
Inter-Colonial Native Affairs Commission, 1903-05.] 



COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. ' XXIX 

" In those simple days of old there were no inspections or 
examination lasting, as they have done this year, for over two months. 
I am not sure that for missionary purposes and for the main and 
precise object of this place those were not better days. We may, 
like all others, wish for more freedom to shape the work and ends 
of this place on the lines of its original formation. But we cannot 
have the aid which the Education Department is willing to give 
without some considerable concession to the wishes and methods 
laid down by that Department. We give up our liberty and put 
on fetters, and it is all the same whether they are made of gold 
or brass." fLovedale Annual Report, 1901.] 

" It will be accepted as a sound principle that education in any 
country should be shaped as far as possible to meet the require- 
ments of the individual, or community or people to whom such 
education is given. It cannot be said that Native Education in 
South Africa has been so dealt with. The course of education, 
subjects for examination and certificates are the same for black 
and white. This guiding principle (that education should be 
shaped to meet the requirements of a people) helps to determine 
generally what shape the education of the Native races should 
take in South Africa. It should be practical, industrial, and for 
the great majority largely elementary. Complaint is made by 
Colonists that there is too much book work and too little practical 
training. One canse of both complaint and result has been 
mentioned. The missionary, however, has no choice." [Board of 
Education Special Reports, Vol. 13, p. 337.] 



[N.] 

STATEMENT BY THE REVD. H. A. JUNOD, 
RIKATLA. 

Practical Hints about the Reform of Native Education. 

In annexation with the great question of the reform of native 
education, and to show how desirable it is to give to the vernacular 
a much wider place in native schools, I beg to submit to this 
assembly the following remarks : — 

1 . The shape of the mind of the natives, their mental, social, 
linguistic conditions are and likely will remain for a long time 
very different from those of the white people. 

2. It is therefore imperative that they should be trained 
according to a special code of instruction suiting them better 
than the ordinary programme of the European schools. 

3. The native code ought to provide a preparatory vernacular 
period of at least two years to allow children to master well the 
reading and writing of their own language, and these subjects 

[A. 1—08] Native Education. vv 



XXX APPEXDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

ought to be submitted to a serious examinatioD on the part of the 
Government School Inspectors. 

4. Inspectors of native schools, according to their sphere of 
labour, ought to be conversant with at least one of the following 
six native languages : Zulu proper, Zulu-Xosa, Seto proper, 
Tshwana, Pedi, Thonga. 

5. During the preparatory period, English ought to be taught 
mostly by the ear, and a handbook containing simple lessons of 
conversation ought to be prepared to that effect. 

6. The South African Bantu languages are very rich and, if 
technical terms are introduced into them, they will be able to 
express any thought especially in literary and scientific subjects. 
In primary and even in secondary education, a much more exten- 
sive use of them might be made than has been the case hitherto. 

7. Though a good many natives, increasing in number every 
year, acquire a thorough knowledge of English, for the great 
bulk of them, the European language remains, foreign, and they 
cannot assimilate ideas properly except in their own vernacular. 
Consequently it would be a good plan to prepare for them some 
handbooks written in Bantu dialects which would put within their 
reach that certain amount of knowledge which is indispensable to 
& man pretending to be educated. 

8. I have the honour to present to this assembly three hand- 
books of that description prepared for the schools of the Swiss 
Mission which is an attempt to give in the Konga dialect an 
explanation of the Ronga Grammar (Bukhaneli), an introduction 
to the Portuguese Grammar, and a summary of elementary science. 
They have been used with success for some years. 

9. The teaching of the grammar of the vernacular, Accord- 
ing to the ordinary school course, native pupils are made to 
study English grammar from Standard III. This subject is 
certainly a difficult one for them, and these children do not 
understand much about subject, object, and predicate. Would 
it not be a vastly superior plan to explain to them first some- 
thing about the structure of their own tongue, to teach them the 
classes of the nouns, their prefixes, and the wonderful concord of 
the Bantu languages ? W e have tried to reach that aim in com- 
posing the handbook called " Bukhaneli " (law of speech), where 
we introduced vernacular terms for most of the grammatical 
technical expressions. These terms were not difficult to find. 
The parts of speech are represented as living agents by words of 
the class mu-ba. The noun is mubiti, viz., the one who names ; 
the pronoun, misibi, viz., the one who takes the place ; the verb, 
mukhaneli, viz., the one who speaks out the matter, etc. The 
aim of the book is to bring the native children so far as to 
recognise the various kinds of words and put a name to each of 
tiiem. 1 have experienced that parsing sentences of their ver- 
nacular was a first rate exercise to develop their faculties of 
classification, and I have seen pupils taking a great pleasure in 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XXXI 

it. When they have mastered the grammar in their language, 
then native children can undertake with profit the grammatical 
study of the Europeans' tongues. 

10. The second book which I submit to you, Grammatica 
Portugueza em lingua rang a, has been written by one of my 
colleagues, the Rev. Mr. Benoit, as the continuation of the 
Bukhaneli. In Delagoa Bay we teach our natives Portuguese, 
and this is done in the above-mentioned book in using the terms 
of the Bukhaneli and giving their European equivalents. The 
child then knows ^ ell what is a noun, a verb, etc., because he 
can make comparisons with his mother-tongue. One can expect 
to teach him grammar with much more success after such a pre- 
paration. In the present native codes of education there is no 
place for vernacular grammar. Only students passing their last 
examination, after the third year of the Normal Course (they 
are a very small percentage of the so-called educated 
natives) have to bother one day about it, and it is a true 
bother, indeed. They can choose to take the " language 
paper " in Kafir or Seto instead of Dutch ; but, 
though they know by heart all the English Grammar, they 
often fail to explain the simplest features of the Grammar of 
their own language, because they do not know it, they were never 
properly taught about it. And notice that as soon as they get 
out of school, they will again mostly speak their vernacular in 
the kraal where they will be placed as teachers or evangelists. 

11. -A third handbook which might be introduced with advan- 
tage in the South African Native Schools, is a little encyclopedic 
teaching in a more or less systematic way of the main facts of 
science, those which all educated Europeans know but which are 
unknown to the Natives. It is very important for the progress 
of the Native race, for its civilization, that it should get some 
scientific knowledge of the world, in order to uproot the animistic 
theories which are the background of all its heathenism and 
superstition. The theory of witchcraft, the customs concerning 
the filth of death, the divination by bones, all these absurd and 
dangerous ideas have been fought so far only by the christian 
faith. To replace the old, erroneous faith by a new one was 
certainly the first thing to do and it has been done indeed with 
considerable success. But it is not sufficient. In order to clear 
entirely the Natives mind from the heathen theories, it is neces- 
sary to replace them by an enlightened conception of the world. 
Such a teaching is not, as some people might think,, a mere 
luxury. It is more important for the development of the Native 
races than most of the details of English history from 1066 to 
1088 which pupils of 5th and 6th Standards are made to learn. 
Two hours per week during three years (from 4th to 6th 
Standards, for instance) would be sufficient to impart such a 
knowledge to Natives of an average intelligence. (The plan 
which I have adopted for this little encyclopedie and which 



XXX11 APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

might, of couise, be considerably amended, according to the taste 
of the writer, is the following one : — 

First a short definition of matter and spirit. Then an ex- 
planation of Nature according to the popular division 
in four kingdoms. 

(1) The mineral kingdom. 

Broad lines of Astronomy and Cosmography. What 

are the earth, the sun, the moon, the stars. 
The gaseous, liquid and solid bodies. About gases, 
oxygen carbonic acid, water vapour and rain (the 
atmosphere); about liquids, water, its repartition, 
the seas, the rivers, the springs, alcohol, quick 
silver, etc., about solids, the stones, their formation, 
their various kinds, the metals, iron, precious metals, 
the extraction of gold, etc. 
The five great forces of the mineral kingdom : Sound, light, 
heat, magnetism, electricity (very elementary.) 

(2) The vegetable kingdom. 

The cells, Microbia, Mono and Dicotyledoms, Organs 

of vegetables. 
Their practical use. A short classification of Botany. 

(3) The animal kingdom. 

Zoophyta, Annelida (taenia Solium') insects, the 
three stages of the evolution of Lepidoptera (a 
fact unknown to the Natives), the habits of ants 
and bees, etc. Vertebrata with reference to the 
animals which must be by South Africans (known). 

(4) The human kingdom. 

(a) The human body, the bones, the blood and its 
work, organs of circulation, organs which clean the 
blood, organs which originate the blood, nervous 
system, the five senses. 

(b) The main diseases of the body and the principal 
drugs. 

(c) The races of men, short anthropological classifi- 
cation. 

(d) The history of man, prehistoric times, the ten 
great nations of Ancient History, the Church in 
the 4th first centuries, persecutions and martyrs. 

Middle age, Barbarians and Mohamedans, downgrade of the 
Church, Modern History, great discoveries, reform, 
sketch of the development of each of the main countries 
of Europe, Modern Church, Missions.) 

12. Will a reform of native education of those lines be 
possible ? Yes, if the power of routine is broken and if some 
educationalists will consent to learn conscientiously and fully the 
native language. The root of the evil is, perhaps, to be found 
here. Those who supervise the teaching of the South African 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDUCATION. XXX111 

races do not always think it worth while devoting a whole year 
to that study. They follow the deplorable system of always 
using interpreters and will never feel themselves entirely at ease 
with natives. What a pity ! My last recommendation is this : 
Fellow workers in native education, consider it as a duty of first 
importance to master first the language of your pupils ! It is a 
hard work, I confess, but quite worth undertaking. Your great 
reward will be that you will understand the native mind a hundred 
times better and win the confidence of your pupils much more 
easily. I feel sure, once in possession of the A-ernacular, many 
of you will not question any more the advisability of the reform 
we are advocating ! 

(Sgd.) H. A. JUNOD. 
Kikatla, June, 1908. 



[O.] 

STATEMENT BY DR. NEIL MACVICAR, M.D., 
D.P.H., MEDICAL OFFICER TO THE LOVE- 
DALE MISSION. 

I have been nearly six years Medical Officer to the Lovedale 
Mission. Before coming to Lovedale, I occupied a similar posi- 
tion for four years in connection with the Blantyre Missionary 
Institution, Nyasaland. 

At the outset I should like to say that my experience does not 
in any way support the theory put forward by some writers that 
the Native's mental development is arrested at puberty. I know 
that at Blantyre many of the brightest boys in school were from 
seventeen to twenty years of age. And the same is the case in 
Lovedale. There are some Native boys, it is true, who fall into 
evil habits at that age, and so injure their health. But this 
happens even at the best English public schools. Such boys in 
an Institution like Lovedale are a trifling minority, perhaps five 
per cent, of the whole number of big boys. The others, the 
great majority that is, at the age in question, throw themselves 
into their lessons with increasing earnestness. 

At a later age, about twenty-three or twenty-four, I have 
noticed some Native young men suffering from mental exhaustion. 
I attribute this partly to the long number of years some of these 
boys had been at school, but chiefly to the fact that they were 
carrying on all their studies in a difficult foreign language which 
even the most intelligent among them understood very imperfectly. 

The recognized medium of instruction in Government-aided 
Kafir schools in the Cape Colony is not Kafir but English, even 
down to the swb-standards. The subjects taught are the same 
as in white schools. The scholars are examined in English. 
The system is producing men who have a certain acquaintance 



XXXIV APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

with the English language and are usually neat writers. Its- 
defects appear to me to be : — 

1. That the knowledge of English is hardly ever sound* 
Words are picked up from the English lesson books without 
being clearly understood. The grounding is so bad in this respect 
that no matter how many years the scholar remains at school, 
he never learns to speak or write English correctly. 

2. The other subjects of the school course, such as History 
and Geography are not properly learned, because they are never 
properly understood. They are learned in English, and, while 
phrases and even whole sentences are committed to memory for 
reproduction at examinations, the ideas which these phrases are 
intended to convey are often not present in the scholars' minds, 
or if present are vague and distorted. 

3. The vernacular languages in most schools are recognized 
neither as media of instruction nor as subjects of study. The 
result is that scholars after many years at school are unable to 
read or to compose a letter in their own language. 

4. There is nothing in the whole school course fitted to counter- 
act the superstitions current among Natives. The result is 
that Native certified teachers and even scholars preparing for 
matriculation are in many cases firm believers in witchcraft. The 
whole fabric of our present education is resting upon an undis- 
turbed stratum of heathen superstition. 

5. There is no moral or religious instruction in the School 
Code. Missionary Superintendents are supposed to insist upon 
teachers giving Bible lessons, but they are almost powerless to do 
so. Teachers will not teach what is not to be examined. Native 
public opinion requires to be educated upon questions of morality, 
private and public. The present system does not appear to aim 
at educating opinion or inspiring conduct. 

6. There is no health teaching in the schools, notwithstanding 
the fact that diseases of a preventible kind, such as consumption^ 
are spreading and are already very common. 

7. The present system of individual examination has a de- 
moralizing effect upon both teachers and scholars. Teachers are 
mere examiners. Scholars have little interest in their lessons ; 
their one aim is to " pass." 

8. The present system is an exotic. It takes Native children 
from their kraals and puts them to English Primers. It does 
not start from what they know. Similarly it pays no heed to 
what they are destined to become. If anything, it tends to make 
them clerks. 

9. The young men turned out from the Institutions just now 
do not appear to have the moral stamina their fathers had at the 
same stage of their education twenty or thirty years ago. I 
cannot help thinking that the hollowness of the system under 
which boys of the present generation are being educated, the 
unreality of the whole thing, tends to make them what not a few 



COMMITTEE ON NATIVE EDI' CATION. XXXV 

of them become, men satisfied with names and outward appear- 
ances, careless about realities, lacking in earnestness, lacking in 
ethical or religious principle, vacant-minded, ready to do any 
foolish or wrong thing that comes in their way. 

I have heard it said that the Central African natives possess a 
larger amount of natural ability than the Kafirs. I do not 
believe there is any great difference. But in Nyasaland, scholars 
go through their standards in their own language, learning 
English at the same time as a language ; and the result is that 
they are keenly interested in their lessons ; they really know 
what they have studied, and in particular their English is easier 
and more natural than that of Kafir scholars in Cape Colony. 

I would respectfully suggest : — 

(1) That in native schools the vernacular be made the 
ordinary medium of instruction in all the standards. 

(2) That English be taught as a language, beginning at the 
first standard and throughout the school course. 

(3) That in the Training Colleges for Teachers a Science 
course similar to that given in American Normal Colleges 
be included, the elements of Physics, Chemistry, 
Botany, Physiology and Health (including disease 
prevention), being taught with the aid of demonstrations 
and experiments. After having had this course, 
teachers would be in a position to give simple oral 
Health lessons, besides teaching Nature study in the 
elementary schools. In this way something might be 
done to counteract those superstitions which are doing 
so much harm at the present time, even among Christian 
communities. It seems to me that so long as witchcraft 
remains the accepted theory of disease among the mass 
of the people, and even teachers, are unpersuaded of its 
falsity, educational progress cannot be regarded as other 
than largely superficial. 

(4) That in the Training Schools for Teachers, Christian 
Ethics be studied as applied to all the relations of life, 
private and public, and that teachers be bound to give 
simple oral lessons in elementary schools on this subject. 

(5) That in the case of girl teachers, a course similar to that 
given in Canada and elsewhere, under the name 
Domestic Science, be included in the Normal Course, 
special attention being directed to the subject of the 
care and feeding of infants. This knowledge is sadly 
lacking among Native women, and many mothers lose 
their children in consequence. 

(6) That local initiative be encouraged, the Training 
Institutions being permitted to draw up their own 
courses and submit them to the Department for approval. 

(7) That steps be taken to substitute inspection for indi- 

vidual examination. 



XXXVI APPENDIX TO REPORT OF THE SELECT 

COMMITTEE OX NATIVE EDUCATION. 

(8) That in order to secure more intelligent supervision of 
.Native education a special branch of the Education 
Department be established in the East of the Colony or 
the Transkei, and assisted by a Board composed of 
missionaries and educated natives. Such a body might 
be empowered to modify the curricula to suit Native 
requirements, the standard being, of course, kept equal 
to that of European schools. 
I should like to add that many Native school buildings are not 
suited for their purpose. Some have poor ventilation. Many 
have iron roofs without ceilings. Hardly any have verandahs or 
other suitable arrangements for teaching in the open air. School 
hours are the hottest of the day, and the health of teachers, 
especially women teachers, suffers from these conditions. I be- 
lieve that if the Transkeian General Council were given 
representation upon an Education Board such as I have indicated, 
the Council would be willing to vote the salary of a full-time 
Medical Officer whose duties might be to teach Health in the 
Transkeian Normal Colleges, to give vacation courses on the 
same subject to acting teachers, and to inspect and report upon 
the health of schools in the districts concerned. A great deal of 
good might be done by such an officer. 

[^] 

LIST OF CORRECTIONS IN THE EVIDENCE OF 

INSPECTOR W. G. BENNIE. 

Q. 2391. The percentages should be as follows : — 

Sub-st. and I. IV. V. and above. 

1895 74-9 1-5 O'O 

Last inspection ... 58*8 6*3 7*4 

Q. 2400, line 5. For " many " read " some." 

Q. 2410 and 2613. For " Germonica" read "Jamaica 'V 

Q. 2442, line 12. For " always " read " usually ". 

Q. 2487, line 5. For " for " read " of". 

Q. 2507. For " Universities " read " University Colleges ". 

Q. 2545, last line but one. After " necessary " add " for due 
preparation ". 

Q. 2572, line 9. For " a native life " read " an active life ". 

Q. 2580, last line but two. Delete "sole" before "medium". 
(In this connection, I may add that, since giving evidence, I have 
had an opportunity of meeting the lady under whom I began my 
education at Lovedale, and she unreservedly confirms my conten- 
tion that in those days English was used throughout, and states 
that it worked most successfully.) 

Q. 2585, line 5. For " are " read " were ". 

Q. 2591, line 6. After "noon" insert "on Wednesdays '. 

Q. 2614, last line but two. For " Kafir " read " Scripture ". 



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